I guess we've decided, well I'm amplified today, but I guess we've decided to just use half the room. I think if we find, you should let somebody know if you find that you don't sort of feel like you have enough space, because I had heard that we have the chairs as close as they are so that people could hear. But anyway, if we want a little more space, we could move the chairs back so that people sitting on the floor don't have to sit behind the chairs. But if there's enough room for all of us, we'll do it like this, but anyway, let me know or Jim or Susan, somebody, if you'd like a little more space, we'll adjust it. I'm enjoying coming here once again. I've been coming now in January for several years.

[01:04]

I can't remember now how long, we had a couple of sittings at the Waldorf School out somewhere. Where is that? Fair Oaks, yeah. Did any of you come to the sittings in Fair Oaks? Yeah, see, so we've been doing this for a long time. I guess, yes I did, yes I did. I guess you're not that special. Oh, excuse me, this is Susan Orr and she's here to introduce me. Would you like a microphone? Welcome everybody, thank you for being here.

[02:10]

You now know Ed Brown, who comes to us always with a very large heart and a very wide mind. The first time that I attended one of his, I don't know if it was a Dharma talk or a one-day retreat. The teaching that I took is still the one that I live by, which is don't slander the sky by looking at it through a pipe. And sometimes that pipe, you know, I have to hit myself in the head with it. His teachings are that big and that enduring. So I think that we'll have a really wonderful day with Ed. A couple of structural things for you.

[03:14]

First and foremost, I know everybody wants to know, the restrooms are out the door. When you come to the landing, for the women, you should be right upstairs, across the landing, upstairs. We do have to be out of here by 5, which is why this is ending at 4.30, so people will have a little time to talk to each other. Maybe connect with Ed. He has a few books that he's written that he's brought in case anybody doesn't own them yet. And they're for sale out back. But our main way of expressing our gratitude for his teachings is through Dhana, which is the Pali word for generosity. And there is a Dhana box, hat box, on the table where you signed in.

[04:20]

So it would be really wonderful if you could help Ed be able to teach by expressing your gratitude in the Dhana box. Ed will be offering half-hour teaching consultations tomorrow morning. I have a sign-in sheet. So at the mid-break or after, at the end of the day today, if you would like to sign up for one of those. Do I miss anything? Not at the sign-in. Thank you. I don't really want to say very much here at the beginning of the day, except to welcome you and encourage you to welcome yourself.

[06:01]

You know, to yourself. After all, you're going to be spending the day with this person. So you might as well welcome yourself. You'll get to know probably many of these selves, so whichever one shows up, it's useful to welcome. I sometimes wonder, you know, why organize the universe like this? As in, wouldn't it be easier if we knew who we were? It's important. But anyway, Kadagiri Rishi used to say, let the flower of your life force bloom. So I'd like to, in that similar to welcoming yourself home, encourage you to let the flower of your life force bloom.

[07:08]

A lot of times Buddhist meditation, or the idea of Buddhism seems like a nice set of guidelines to live by, and is more of a kind of prohibitory sense. You know, not to kill, not to steal, not to lie. You know, not to be angry, to be generous, kind. If you spend all your time telling yourself what to do and what not to do, it's rather difficult for the flower of your life force to bloom. Whatever happens, you will tell it no. That wasn't what was asked for. So I want to encourage you today to let the flower of your life force bloom. Whatever arises, you have some greeting, welcoming. Pay close attention to your mean thoughts.

[08:41]

That sourness may be a blessing. As an overcast day brings rain for the roses and relief to dry soil. Don't look so sourly on your sourness. It may be it's carrying what you most deeply need. What seems to be keeping you from joy may be what leads you to joy. Don't call it a dead branch. Call it the live moist root. Don't always be waiting to see what's behind it. That wait-and-see poisons your spirit. Reach for it. Hold your meanness to your chest as a healing root and be through with waiting. This is part of an article in the Sun Magazine by John Gatto,

[10:00]

who was a public school teacher in the United States. He was a public school teacher for 30 years before he decided that public schooling was a bad idea. And this part of the story is about one of his students named Hector Rodriguez who was flunking school. See 13-year-old Hector Rodriguez as I first saw him one cold November day. Slightly built, olive-skinned, short, with huge black eyes, his body twisted acrobatically in attempt to slip past the gate of the skating rink at the northern end of Central Park. I'd known Hector for several months as his teacher, but up to that time I'd never really seen him, nor would I have seen him then except for the startling puzzle he presented. He was gate-crashing with a fully-paid attendant admission ticket in his pocket.

[11:08]

Was he nuts? Finding Hector wedged between the bars of the revolving security gate, I yelled, Hector, you idiot! Why are you sneaking in? You have a ticket! He gave me a look that said, Why shout? I know what I'm doing. He actually appeared offended by my lack of understanding. Hector was conducting an experiment to answer a simple question, Could the interlocking bars of the automatic turnstile be defeated? What safer way to find out than with a paid ticket in hand in case it got caught? Hector, you idiot!

[12:43]

You idiot! You idiot! You idiot! We'll do some walking now. I'd like to just do a short bit of walking around the room. It's going to be fairly slow with the number of people here today. But this is the walking. If you'd like to use the posture we use in this Zen tradition,

[13:44]

your left hand is a fist and your right hand is over it. Your arms are level rather than up or down. And you turn your hands a little bit, the little finger side away from you. So it's quite stable and centering. And then the walking, it's one step with each breath. Inhale, step, exhale, shift your weight. So we'll just walk around and then I'll hit a bell to end the period and you can walk back to your place. Good morning. I have a few more minutes of orientation next or instruction or something like that. So I want you to know you all have your paid admission ticket.

[14:49]

It's tempting to, as I mentioned earlier, think about meditation kind of like school. And boys especially are likely not to go along with the program as well as girls. Do you know Debra Tannen's book, You Just Don't Understand? She talks about how men communicate and how women communicate and she's pretty careful to honor each way of communicating. Not to say that the way women communicate is the right way and men just don't get it or that men's way of communicating is the right way and women just don't get it. They just communicate differently and it's kind of like learning a foreign language, she suggests. Usually people want to send their spouse into therapy so that they can learn how to do it.

[15:55]

But you could also learn a little bit about the other's way of doing it rather than fix them. But from a very young age, in studies they've done, two little boys will sit there kind of like, we're supposed to be talking to each other now, aren't we? Yeah, that's right. They think we're going to communicate. We're supposed to talk about something meaningful and important, sure. Did you see that game on television the other day? And little girls will sit there like, oh, my dad is sick lately. And they right away try to do what they're told, have an important conversation. And they look at each other. And this is like kindergarten. We're not, I mean, it's like before you know it, you know, we're who we are.

[17:00]

So it's tempting to think that, you know, meditation, we've all heard, you know, we know what it's supposed to be. Empty your mind. Be calm. You know, if something comes up, let it come, let it go. Stay with the program. And because when I talk to people and they say, oh, I can't meditate. I say, what do you mean you can't meditate? Well, I can't quiet my mind. Well, whose idea was that anyway? I can't stop my thinking. Okay. Anyway, that's like meditation, like at school, like there's a program that you should get with it. And I kind of, and you know, Susan mentioned, don't slam into the sky by looking at it through a pipe.

[18:15]

Well, there you go. If you want to say, I can't quiet my mind. I need to make it this one little thing out of all the possibilities. I need to make it a certain way. You know, it's rather idealistic and it's also rather materialistic. Or, you know, Suzuki should just say, you think being selfless is a good idea. And you'd like to be selfless. That's a rather selfish idea, don't you think? So you want to have an empty mind. So I'm suggesting, you know, my encouragement in meditation, I mean, I just figure you're here enough. And besides, I'm a guy and I never got with the program or, you know, only up to a certain extent.

[19:18]

So I kind of tend to encourage people to enjoy themselves in meditation and, you know, welcome yourself. And you've got a paid ticket. Now's your chance to try to get through the turnstiles in the wrong direction. Now's your chance to feel your feelings, think your thoughts, and you're not going to do anything with them. You're just going to go on sitting here. So hey, that's the paid admission ticket. Now, if you were to do something with those thoughts, you might get in trouble. Or those feelings, you know, if you were to act stuff out, you could have a, you know, but you're just going to sit here and that's your paid admission ticket. Free to pass go. So feel your feelings, think your thoughts. You know, get a life. Spiritual people are known for, you know, some people at least, you know,

[20:26]

one way of talking about it anyway is that spiritual people, you know, we're the older souls. Now, I don't know how a soul which is timeless could get to be one of the older ones. So this is why I say it's just a manner of talking. Okay. So as an older soul, we've had many lifetimes and, you know, chances to make all the mistakes. So then, you know, do all sorts of weird things, get into all sorts of weird problems. You know, so, so there comes a time when you say, I'm not going to make any of those mistakes again. I'll just sit here. So it's tempting, you know, for people who are spiritual to try not to do anything or to be very careful about what they're doing. But at some point, you know, and so this is all useful, but then at some point,

[21:35]

it's like, can it be balanced with some energy and activity and, you know, the flower of your life was blooming. Seeing if you can get through the turnstile in the wrong direction. Or as the Rumi poem says, you know, don't be so sour about your sourness and getting rid of everything. You know, reach out and touch your meanness, hold it to your heart. Don't be so sour about your sourness. So this is finally, you know, what is healing. So there's a stage in meditation which emphasizes, you know, separating from your difficulty or your pain, concentrating on your breath, your posture.

[22:36]

And at some point, you realize more and more, it's not possible to keep separate from the things that are painful or difficult or touchy. And you can go ahead and be with your experience. So again, as Kadagiris used to say, sometimes, meditation is not like training your dog. Sit. Heel. Fetch. You know, follow your breath. Let go of the thought. As though you could become a well-trained dog. Pet, you know, your mind could be your pet. So I'm sorry, it's sort of a guy's approach to meditation, you know. This is also known as, you know, finding your way.

[23:52]

Okay. Most of us are rather, you know, we have a fair amount of doubt about being me. And so when we think about finding our way, we think not about finding my way, we think about finding the way. You know, which, in other words, has to do with, I want to know the way to do it that's right. I want to be able to get it right. So is this the way? And when will it be possible to have confidence in your, you know, to trust,

[24:59]

to settle into your own life and trust in your life, trust life itself. Trust yourself to find the way. Trust yourself to find your way. And you stop looking for the way and start finding your way. You know, in a simple example of this is if I tell people in a cooking class, taste what you put in your mouth. That's pretty straightforward, huh? Somebody will say, what should we be tasting? Because it's not quite all right to just taste what's in your mouth, you know.

[26:11]

You should know what it should taste like. And make sure that what you're tasting is what you should be tasting. Because then you could, you would be all right. You would be, you would be okay. Now it's okay. Because it's the experience you should be having. You're getting it right. So this is, in its own way, I'm suggesting for today, you know, you could hazard. Experiencing, you know, going through the turnstiles in the opposite direction. Seeing what your experience is, checking it out, you have a paid ticket. So you can't go too far off. Hmm. This is what I understand to be the real way, you know, circulates freely.

[27:24]

How could it depend on practice or enlightenment? The real way circulates freely in each of us, you know, regardless of practice or enlightenment. The truth is not apart from here, this very place. Why go off on some journey? You know, this is when we decide my experience is not good enough. It's not right enough, true enough, special enough, interesting enough. I better go off and look for some more spiritual experience to have that would authenticate me.

[28:30]

Authenticate and validate my being here. Otherwise, I'm not sure. I've spent a lot of time not being sure if I belong here. I still have these kind of attacks, so to speak. Do I actually belong here? Is it okay that I'm alive? So this is to, you know, doubt that the truth is not apart from this very place. Why journey? I better go to somebody's house. I better find some meaning. I better accomplish something. I better prove something. I better validate or authenticate myself with some accomplishment or production or, you know, validation. Some sign or indication. So anyway, today, let's just see what happens and let the truth, let things come home to your heart.

[29:42]

Let yourself have the experience you're having. Welcome yourself, greet yourself, meet yourself. As far as the more so-called prosaic part of the orientation, let's maintain, practice maintaining silence, especially in this room and the hallway right outside. If you need to talk or want to, you know, please move away from the rest of the group. If you want to visit with your friend or companion. And during lunchtime, if you're away from the main group, you know, some of you may go out to lunch or, you know, what have you. Then you can talk. But when we're together as a group anyway, let's practice silence. I also, in the sitting, by the way, I have a couple extra cushions over here. If anybody thinks you might be able to use some extra cushions, they're on the step there.

[30:45]

As far as the sitting and the schedule, you know, I feel flexible about this. So basically, you know, if you start to meditate with your face, it's time to move. You know, if your face starts to twist or your jaw starts to, or your eyes. If you can't relax your face, then just move and start over. Does that make sense? I mean, this is my idea. This is what I learned after years of, you know, I started meditating during the Vietnam War. So, you know, we used to believe in those days there was a light at the end of the tunnel. So if you sat there long enough grimacing, you would, you could get through to the light. Eventually I decided, just don't go in the tunnel.

[31:54]

So I'm, you know, you may need to learn this for yourself, but in the meantime, I'm offering it as a teaching. Don't go in the tunnel. And I found that, you know, that I was able to sit still longer by not going in the tunnel than when I was going in the tunnel. Anyway, I would sit for three minutes or four minutes and then move, and then three or four minutes and move. But, you know, when you have choice, it's so much more relaxing. Otherwise you're going like, just sit there. And you're so tight making yourself do something. It's not very relaxing or refreshing or anything. So... So, you know, and then if you come in late or leave early or you're moving,

[33:03]

move, you know, carefully, quietly, slowly. Don't slam the door on your way out, you know. I heard a funny story recently, you know. We were talking, a group of us were talking about kids and, you know, what you do. And somebody said, you know, it's better if you don't tell, you know, what the or else is. You know, just tell them, you know, if you keep slamming the door, there will be consequences. You know, we don't want you to slam the door anymore. So, because the problem with saying what the consequences are, is then you might have to go through with it. And then you may not feel like it by the time that, you know, you're supposed to go through with it, but then you have to keep your word, you know. And you can't be creative or make it up anymore, you know, because you're already stuck. You've already got yourself narrowed down to this is the response. So, somebody was saying as an example that someone,

[34:08]

they knew their teenage daughter was slamming the door all the time. So one day they said, they kept saying, you know, like, we don't want you to slam the door. So one day she came home from school and the door was just off the hinges removed and down in the basement. So she wanted her door back. They talked about it a little bit, you know. Anyway, alright, so that's probably enough as far as this goes. I'd like to, and then just one other thing about this. You know, I have a schedule, more or less, plan. So if you want to sit when we're sitting, then please sit. And if you want to, you know, do something else, then go do something else. Of course, you know, you should just sit when it's time to sit. But we're going to do a little yoga probably later this morning.

[35:15]

So if some of you have trouble with yoga, you know, then find a place to sit or go for a walk or whatever, you know. So I don't, I mean, I encourage you to, you know, if you don't stay for the day, I encourage you to come back for the end. I think this is important that you're here at 4.30, so that you will have completed the day. I've done many days of meditation, you know, all day sitting in, you know, sushins, where like at Tassajara you can walk for a couple of miles up the road, like you're going to walk the 14-mile dirt road and you're leaving, you know. But, you know, 14 miles, and it's a long ways to walk. It takes several hours. So after, you know, for most people over the years, there's been very few people who actually made it the 14 miles. Usually you get an hour or two up the road and you turn around and come back, you know. So you're there at the end of the day, you know. And I've left sushins in San Francisco and, you know, taken the bus across town and, you know,

[36:19]

gone out to Marin County and hiked up Mount Tam and hitchhiked back and, you know, finish out the evening at Sin Center. So you're, you know, this is important to, you know, for the, you know, to get the full impact of the day, you know, that you actually are here at the end, you know. Otherwise, you know, you're a quitter. You know, for the most part, I let people's consequences take care of themselves. I don't try to, you know, add them on. I figure, you know, what you do is its own, you know, consequence. But anyway, so again, I'm basically just encouraging you to find your way. And if it, certainly if it makes sense to you, you know,

[37:21]

this for many people is a useful way to find the way, you know, within the context of sitting and walking, et cetera. So thank you very much. And I want to suggest, you know, we'll go, you know, out in the halls now or some of you might be able to stay here in the room and we'll do a, you know, a longer period of walking meditation now for half an hour or so. And I'll walk around at some point hitting a bell or something to let you know to come back. So do you want to try, you know, I'm familiar with basically two styles of walking meditation. One is the Vipassana and one is the Thich Nhat Hanh. So I think I'll give you the Thich Nhat Hanh this morning so you can enjoy yourselves. Thich Nhat Hanh is really quite, you know, I don't know. He's got a little more emphasis now, you know, on monastic life and, you know,

[38:23]

his monks and nuns and everything. But he used to, years ago, come to Zen Center and it was kind of new for us, you know, Vietnamese Zen. We'd all been doing Japanese Zen. In Japanese Zen, you act like a Japanese person. You have to be a little grim or you're not getting it right. And impassive and throw yourself into it. Vietnamese Zen, you know, apparently people in Vietnam, they smile a lot. So if you're not smiling, Thich Nhat Hanh said, you're wasting your time. And we're kind of like, what? So that was the first we started, some of us started to realize that Zen,

[39:24]

there was more to Buddhism and Zen than being Japanese. So anyway, what is the important point? Well, so Thich Nhat Hanh suggested that you go walking when you walk, practice enjoying yourself. And that enjoyment is, you know, one of the five factors of absorption. And if you're not, you know, it's necessary for initial stages of concentration that you have some joy. So joy is to be moved by things, to resonate with the object of your awareness. So you can enjoy your walking, your breath. You know, if you're outside, the fresh air, the sun, you can always enjoy the ground. The fact that there's something to step on and, whoa, it's solid. There's that story about some brilliant physicist who, you know,

[40:29]

realized that everything is mostly space, you know, in terms of the atom and everything. And so he used to wear these big padded slippers around the house because he was worried he'd fall through the floor, as though that would help. Anyway, so as far as the enjoying, you can walk and you can have your hands where it's comfortable. You can, if you'd like. So the basic thing is find your own way to enjoy, but if you'd like, you can practice smiling. It's a slight smile, usually. You don't have to do the big, hi, everyone. Great to see you. Are my teeth white enough today? Probably not. Oh, well. It's just a slight smile, otherwise known as a half smile or a sixteenth. Or a slight.

[41:30]

So especially if you can get just a little bit the corner of your jaws or your cheekbones. The corner of the jaws are known for a place that judgments reside. What's good and what's bad, and you know where it's at. And you know what you should be doing and what you shouldn't. So if you can relax that a little bit by smiling, it makes a big difference. So just a slight smile. And then walking, you walk at a moderate pace. And if you'd like, you can combine your walking with your breath. So it's three or four steps as you inhale, and three or four as you exhale, which is about what I'm doing here. So, and then I actually like to use a little verse when I do this kind of walking. And it's a shortened form of inhaling, I calm body and mind. Exhaling, I smile with joy. So it's inhale, calm body. Exhale, joyful smile.

[42:36]

Inhale, calm body. Exhale, joyful smile. Or if you want, you can do four steps. I trust my self, whether you do or not. Okay? So please, you can walk for a while, and in about half an hour I'll hit the bell. I'll walk around and hit the bell. Good afternoon. My apologies for my lateness. Usually most of you are late. So it's payback time. I was just going to go around the corner to Marshall Grounds for lunch, and they're closed. They're not open on Saturdays anymore. I didn't know. And then Bernardo's was too busy. The line was out the door when we got there. And then Jack's was closed. So we just drove around Sacramento.

[43:37]

Anyway. All right, so if you have any questions or comments, interests at this point in the day, please. Yes. I always forget how devoted you are to yoga. And I just was surprised at how much it felt different and very unnurturing to have my body involved in meditation at this point. So I really appreciate that. It was a comfort. I've done it with you before, but I always forget. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am devoted to yoga in a certain sense, but I don't have a daily practice. But yeah, it is nice. It does help.

[44:41]

I see. As I mentioned, you know, we all have, you know, some habitual place our consciousness resides. And so to, in a structured way, you know, take various poses, does allow a kind of freedom of consciousness movement, you know, the mind to move in the body rather than hang out in the same old place. In a certain sense, I think these days that, you know, ego could be said to be our habitual posture body. And so it's only temporary, you know, yoga. But still, it's a chance to have a bigger body, a different body, a freer body than the one we're habitually holding on to or keeping. Thank you. Something else?

[45:42]

Yes. As a matter of fact, we try so diligently to build that practice and compass and work through us that we forget. You mentioned so clearly that, you know, we're trying so hard that who we are sometimes is lost. And it's very nice to hear that. Thank you. One summer at Tassajara Kadagirishi, I was using that a lot.

[46:57]

And I was the resident teacher that summer. That's when I told him one time, you know, it's really hard giving these Dharma talks. And he said, at least you know the language. Well, I guess it's not that hard, is it? But because I was in that position, I guess, you know, normally people don't talk about their doksan, you know, their interview with the teacher. But because I was the head resident teacher, I heard two stories that summer, you know, one person had gone to Kadagirishi and said, you know, I'm really angry a lot. I'm just angry. I'm mad at the people I work with and, you know, things. And it's just terrible. And what do I do? He said, it's the flower of your life force blooming, don't you think? And I said, oh, okay. And, you know, before that, I was just being angry.

[48:06]

And then somebody else, similar, you know, same story, except that they were tired all the time. And we were working too hard and it was too hot and, you know, and we had to get up too early and not enough sleep. And he said, it's the flower of your life force blooming. So yet another way to use it. It is interesting. I've heard two stories lately. You know, there is a kind of, often a kind of gap between what feels like my life and practice. Or like, am I trying to be me or am I trying to be a good Buddhist? Or are those the same or different? Because at some point, you know, being you, it's the flower of your life force blooming and you're realizing yourself.

[49:14]

You're not realizing, you're not turning yourself into something else, a Buddha. You know, you're realizing yourself, you're making yourself real. So one of the stories was Pablo Casals had a student at one point and he worked with him for weeks and weeks on playing a particular piece of music. And he was teaching the student to play the piece of music exactly the way he played it. So they worked on it week after week and lesson after lesson. And finally, one day he said to the student, at last you can play the piece of music now exactly the way I play it. Very good. Now, play it the way you would play it. So this is very interesting, you know, because it has something to do with this. You know, unless you make some effort to go beyond yourself,

[50:15]

or, you know, in some way you practice something that's not exactly you, you don't realize how you're doing you. In other words, if you try to sit up straight and then in some place you end up here, sort of like, oh, look where I usually live. But until then, it's sort of like, that's just where you are and who cares? I mean, it's sort of like, well, isn't everybody? So the form in some ways is, you know, something that you now, now you realize not so much whether you keep the form, but in relationship to the form, you're something else. But until you start, until you try to sit up straight, you don't realize where you are. And so in that same way, in order to, in the Zen tradition, certainly you're practicing and training to let go of yourself in order to realize yourself.

[51:19]

There's something you have to let go of in order to actually be you. So in Cassal's case, that's play it the way I play it. In the Zen tradition, you study long enough to realize, to do your teachers away, to do the traditional way, now go and be you. It's very similar. Theoretically, Dharma transmission is, okay, you've got it down, what we do, the way we do it, the sensibility, now be you. So this is interesting. We do have to let go of something, let go of ourself, or practice something like being this way or that way. And at some point we give ourself more permission, then we realize I could be me. I don't have to. And Buddhism is recognizing at some point then that when I'm clear, when I'm not confused, actually I am loving.

[52:24]

I can confuse love with violence and love with approval and various things, but when I'm clear, people are compassionate. The nature of mind is compassion. The nature of mind and activity of mind is wisdom when it's clear. So at some point we're not just trying to train the dog. But if we don't do that, then people will say, I'm already Buddha, so I don't need to practice. Huh. At that case, you say to people, well, if you're already Buddha, you don't need to say so. Because now we know we have some doubt about it.

[53:30]

A similar story I heard was about Picasso, who had some students and instructed them to draw a perfect circle. So think about it. If you're going to draw a perfect circle, you start to notice, how are you sitting? Do you draw a better circle when you sit up straight? Or when you, I better just do this really carefully. Or are you concentrated? Are you not concentrated? Sometimes people find if I try too hard, I'm too stiff. If I'm trying too hard, I can't, it doesn't just flow. If I'm too relaxed, then that doesn't work. So I'm studying like, well, what's what? What's too focused? What's not focused? What's energetic? What's not so energetic? What's attention? What kind of attention? What kind of posture? What things make a difference? And then after you do that for, again, three months or six months or a year,

[54:39]

he would say to the students, the way your circle's off, that's you. And you're not trying to eliminate you. But if you don't, if you just do, if you just do it the way you've always done it, you didn't do any of that study then. And you can say, well, the way I draw the circle, that's me. But then you miss the part about actually realizing yourself and what's what in some deeper way, which you did by taking on the practice of drawing the perfect circle. So sitting is like this. We try very hard, but in the long run, finally, it's not about being quiet or still or blissful. But we notice something about me. We realize ourself. So thank you for mentioning that.

[55:45]

Yeah. I'm curious to hear perhaps some of your experience and understandings of working with as long and as large as you've worked with, and seeing conflicts arise and get work through and resolve and those sorts of processes. Could you hear? All right. He's asking about conflict in Sangha, especially in large groups and what happens and is there some way to work with it and so forth. I was wondering if you could hear, because he's in the front, rather than somebody else is in the back, it's easier. It's just easier. Well, over the years, certainly, I've been around some pretty major conflicts.

[56:51]

And, of course, you might wonder, you know, what's wrong with these Buddhists? So, you know, what seems to be the important point is not that you have some way to avoid conflict, but you have some way to have conflict. And certainly, whether it's a Buddhist group or a relationship, basically, you know, we start out with the idea, we're not going to have it. It's kind of a surprise when you do. Somebody was just saying to me yesterday, the day before,

[57:59]

somebody they know is in a relationship and they're actually... Oh, I remember what it was. Her son and his girlfriend have been having conflict, but now they're talking about getting married. And, you know, she already has a four-year-old daughter, and so the mother of the son is very happy. And she says, but, you know, this has been great for them to have some conflict because they're actually studying how to have conflict, rather than thinking, if there's conflict, we need to stop doing this, or, you know, we should find somebody that we don't have conflict with. So they actually, you know, are finding out how to have conflict, how to have disagreement. So there's... So what I've noticed over the years, you know,

[59:03]

so I've noticed this both in groups and then in personal relationships. And so one of the things that's been interesting to me over the years is to study, in various traditions, communication skills, you know. Now there's a new book out by Marshall Rosenberg called Nonviolent Communication, which I like a lot. And I see it as... And one of the comments he's made is, not just Buddhists see it this way, but people from different religions see it as a way to practice their religion. I see it as Buddhist practice in terms of communication. So like one of the... the first thing is, can you say what happened in terms of what you observed and not evaluate it? So as soon as you say, you were mean to me, that's an evaluation.

[60:06]

What did you say? You know, what did I say? It's an interpretation or evaluation, so that's called mindfulness. If you apply mindfulness to speech, then you try to say what happened without any evaluation. You said that... And then did you say that the person said they were upset? Or you said that I didn't do... You know, you said that I didn't do what you wanted me to do. So what did the person actually say? What did the person actually do? So it's very easy to slip into, you were mean, you were demeaning. Those are all evaluations. And when you get into evaluations, it's very hard. Then people, as soon as you start evaluating, people are like,

[61:10]

oh, wait a minute. Ouch! Because most evaluations are, I'm afraid, negative. The two people who started here were gracious enough to make positive evaluations. Like, I like the yoga. That was a wonderful reminder. And, you know, thank you for your comment about the flower of your life was blooming. But, you know, a lot of the time evaluations are not pleasant to be around. And so, you know, so I found it useful to study these kind of things. Like, what's the difference between evaluation and observation? And if somebody is evaluating me, I might say to them, now, what did you actually notice? What did I actually say? What did I do?

[62:10]

You know, what are we talking about here? You know, rather than just, you know, like people say, and I overhear people in conversations, at Buddhist centers, Tassajara, I don't like your attitude. Now, what information does that give you? It gives you no information. That's just saying, I don't like your attitude. That's just saying, like, actually something you did or said distressed me and gave me an experience that I didn't want to have. Something you did or said triggered in me my stuff that I don't like to have triggered. And I'm going to call that, I don't like your attitude. In other words, you have a problem. And you didn't behave perfectly enough so as to not trigger my stuff. So this is, you know, it's very challenging to try to get to,

[63:17]

well, excuse me, but what did you notice that I said? Or what did I do? Or what are we talking about here? And he has, so anyway, I find it a very useful book. And this was one of the things that, you know, it ends, the fourth stage of the communication is, what do you want? And not just, and this is, and he distinguishes wants from needs. Needs are, you know, and you don't, and then certain things he reminds you like, it's not useful to say, I need you to love me. You know, I need love. Okay. Yeah, fine. But I need you to love me. And then, so when you do get to want,

[64:24]

what I would like, you know, and oftentimes people would, you know, rather, are rather busy saying what, telling you what's wrong, and they don't get around to telling you what they actually want. They just like to tell you what's wrong with you. So what do you want? And you have to give, you have to ask for something. First of all, not have to. See, already that's bad communication, or not bad. Bad is a bad word in communication. It's ineffective communication. And it's, it will tend to stop the communication if you say have to. It will be helpful and facilitate matters if when you ask for what you want, you make it something the other person actually could do. So if you say, I want you to love me, I want you to respect me. I want you to communicate better. What are we talking about?

[65:29]

Several years ago I was working with someone and I just kept trying, like, I don't know, you know. Finally I said, now what can I actually do? You know, I've been working with you for years now and I don't know, nothing seems to, you know, make a difference. And she said, when you come to work in the morning, you could say, when I come in or you come in and we first see each other in the morning, you could say, good morning. And I can actually do that. Because for that person, you know, she's the kind of person who will notice who you say good morning to, who you don't. What does it mean that he's not saying good morning to me? It means that, you know, he has a different relationship to them than to me. He's singling me out to be, you know, ostracized.

[66:34]

What a relief that was. And our relationship, that helped our relationship immensely. You could say, I'd like you to let me finish what I'm saying. Which again, as Marsha Rosenberg says, you know, if you say, I'm sorry, but you just interrupted me, that's an evaluation. He said, I learned that when I was in the second grade and the little boy kept interrupting me. And I said, excuse me, but you're interrupting. And the other kid said, no, he's not, he's helping. So the more careful way is to say, excuse me, but you started talking before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. You started talking before I finished what I wanted to say. That's a more careful, complete way of saying something.

[67:40]

It's acknowledging, you know, and then may I finish what I have to say. So when you ask for something, the other part of it is you make it something doable and you also make it a request, not a demand. So you want somebody to agree to do something because they agree to do it. And if they don't really agree to do it, you don't want them to say, yes, I'll do that. So may I finish what I have to say? Would you please wait and let me finish what I have to say before you begin talking? Is that something that you could agree to do? And you want the person to agree because otherwise it's a demand. And nobody likes demands. You have to wait until I'm finished talking before you can talk. So anyway, I keep studying communication things and it helps and it doesn't help. But there's communication things like that.

[68:43]

Recently, a couple I know were having difficulty. They've been married 25 or 30 years. And they're Christians. So then the wife called me up and said, would you pray for us? I said, sure. Because I figure meditation is prayer. Buddhists have just a different language. To me, if you're sitting and silently, you know the story with Mother Teresa. Somebody said, we hear that you pray a lot. And she says, yes, I do. And she says, well, what do you say when you pray? And she says, I don't say anything. I just listen to God. And they said, so what does God say? And she said, He doesn't say anything either. He listens too. Now, is that meditation or what?

[69:50]

So the usual, you know, the stereotypical idea of prayer is like you would ask for something. You know, and God would be like Bob Dylan said, you know, in his song actually said, God is not your messenger boy. But, you know, I'd like this. I don't like that. You know, take care of it for me, please. But this couple started doing every evening a forgiveness ceremony. Now, Buddhists can do forgiveness ceremonies. You don't have to be a Catholic to do a forgiveness ceremony. But you offer incense and you sit down and you say everything, you know, that you've done today that may have hurt me consciously or unconsciously, your intention, and hurt me or upset me, you know, I forgive you. And each person says that. And they bow or kiss or, you know.

[70:57]

And, you know, their relationship has changed because they're doing this ceremony. And so there are many different things that work. One of the things that works is to have, you know, witnesses. Sometimes that works, especially in a group. You have people talking and other people specifically to listen. And you try to structure it a little bit so people get to finish what they have to say. And, you know, they don't get interrupted. And so anyway, there's various things. And at the same time, we have conflict. And in my estimation, the big conflict at Zen Center, which was 1983-1984 with Baker Rishi, was about communication, the lack of communication.

[72:04]

And you could say that in that case, you know, that somebody, you know, that basically the students did not feel heard by him. Now, being heard is different than, you know, if I hear you, I will do what you want. Being heard is as much as anything. Like, I can repeat back to you what you said, you know, or not exactly necessarily repeat it back. But, you know, it sounds like you're really upset that I did this or that. And you're angry about that. And what you'd like is such and such. And it's what Marshall Rosenberg calls empathy. And I find, you know, empathy, when I was rereading that book last year, I find empathy extreme.

[73:13]

I noticed I almost never do it. So when somebody says something to me, I don't say, oh, it sounds like you're, you know, oh, that must have been really disappointing. Or, gosh, that, it must have been hurt. Or, you know, gee, it sounds like you had a great time. I want to say something like, my tendency would be to fix it. I'll give them some advice. I want to be able to give some good advice. Or, you know, often our tendency is to take the blame. Oh, you're absolutely right. Oh, yes, I'm just such a bad person. I know. Yes. Or to attack them back. Well, it's really your fault. And none of that is about actually hearing. So that helps, you know, actually hearing. So another way that in couple relationships that that's done is, you know, just each person talks and you wait until the person's finished.

[74:16]

And, you know, you take, usually it helps if you have some sacred object, you know, to pass back and forth. So somebody gets to talk and the other person just listens. And you don't try to have Marsha Rosenberg, you know, accurate conversation. You just let the person talk. And then when the other person talks, you don't try to, you don't try to tell the other person how they're wrong. You try to say what you believe, what you feel, what you think, what you've experienced. Not that what they just said. When you, you know, it's not true that what you just said. You say what you say, your truth. You don't criticize their truth. And often just listening that way makes some difference. It's just one other thing about all that, you know, so I don't know. So there seems to be various communication things and structural things and ceremonies and rituals.

[75:22]

And, you know, various things that, you know, that we try out. I do personally find and notice that it's been very difficult for me to admit I have needs. Because I'm a Buddhist. I'd like to think I'm, you know, I'd like to think I don't have needs, but it's not just being a Buddhist. It's like, it's, you know, it's old stuff. It's about growing up. You know, I can, it's American. I can handle it. I can take care of it. I don't need help. I'm independent. I'll handle it. You know, so I don't want to have to admit I need anything. And also, there's somewhere there's that kind of feeling like, if I admit to having a need, nobody could love me.

[76:26]

Because if you have needs, then people like, oh. Oh, you need something? You mean you might want it for me? Anyway, that's my feeling. Which is different than, yes, I need, you know, you to listen to what I have to say. Or, you know, I need, I need love. I need respect. And not that, you know, I need your love or your respect, but I need, yes, I need love. Yes, I need respect. I need security. I need safety. And to acknowledge need in that sense is, at some level, to be willing to receive. You can start actually receiving something rather than the need never being acknowledged, never being met.

[77:30]

So it's all pretty interesting, you know. We're all sort of struggling. And we keep finding our way. Yeah. I'd just like to say, more recently, I'm practicing this, and I think I'm working, someone will say something that sounds aggressive, looks aggressive, and then I ask myself, through the hardest stretch of the imagination, is there any way that I can do that? Look at this as an opportunity to acknowledge this moment.

[78:35]

And then I have an option to accept it. I have an option to respond to it. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds similar to a couple of things that I do. One is similar to that. I remind myself that's exactly like, you know, Bill or Bob or Joe or Mary being Bill or Bob or Joe or Mary. You know, that's just exactly like them, isn't it? Wow, they're doing it perfectly. And why would they try to be something like my idea of the way they ought to? But you're also reminding me of Marsha Rosenberg's, one of his aphorisms is that people are only saying two things. But it's not always so obvious that that's what they're saying, but they're either saying please or thank you.

[79:38]

You know, they say something that's aggressive. They need something. Could you please help me with this? Could you please do something here? I'm in pain. And because I'm in pain, I'm lashing out. And one of his stories about that is being in a Palestinian refugee camp. He's going to be teaching nonviolent communication. And he just gets up to talk and somebody just right away starts screaming, you know, fascist, imperialist, Yankee, go home. And he, you know, just went right to, boy, it sounds like you're really, you know, angry about, you know, Americans. You know, you're really angry with Americans. You bet I am, you know. They're giving all these guns to the Israelis and they don't do anything to educate our children and blah, blah, blah.

[80:43]

And this is really distressing for you that, you know. And so it goes on, he said, after about 15 or 20 minutes, you know, the person had been heard. And then they became, and then he finished his thing and then the guy took him home to dinner and, you know. And we had the same thing happen at Tassajara. Several summers ago, I was the resident teacher for the summer at Tassajara. And I arranged for these people who do communication skills, Mudita and Dan Clerman and Mudita Nisgar, to come and teach us. Because they're people who do Vipassana meditation and they do communication skills workshops. So Tassajara is very busy in the summer. There's this whole staff and there's guests and we're taking, you know, we're cleaning cabins and cooking. So I invited the senior staff people. There were 16 people who are the head of crews. And I went to them, you know, a couple of months before the workshop and said,

[81:49]

Is this something you would be interested in doing? Oh yeah, I'd love to. That would be great. Gee, that sounds wonderful. Terrific. The workshop comes, these people arrive, we sit down in the room. And Dan and Mudita can barely say, Good afternoon. You know, we're here to do a communication workshop. And people in the room start saying, Well, what's so bad about the way we communicate? Do you have a problem with it? You know? What's so bad about it anyway? You think there's something wrong with the way we talk? And they went on like this. And in Zen, you know, we just express ourselves. It's being sincere, you know, and we just practice being sincere and expressing ourselves. And they sat up there and after a few minutes of this, they said, Oh, so you're not sure there's any problem about the way you communicate. Is that right? And you feel it's best to just go ahead and express yourself. And people said, Yeah, that's right.

[82:52]

And then they said some more. And they were doing, that's what's called, you know, often times active listening. Or passive listening, or whatever it's called. It's where you basically repeat back to somebody what they just said to you. So that it, you know, like, I got it. You got it. You got it. And then they can tell you the next thing. Yeah, and then, so after a while, the room got quiet and they said, That's what we call active listening. It's where you repeat back what somebody just said. Worked pretty well, don't you think? Yeah. So then we got, you know, did our thing for the afternoon. And then the next day, still two people didn't come back. Like they weren't sure they wanted to learn more about communication. Or it was too hokey, or something or other. You know, they decided. But, you know, anyway, there's certain skills like that. So often times, something like what you're mentioning.

[83:53]

And often you can come up with them for yourself. Like you say, you know, you don't need to just do what somebody else says. But you say, like, how can I look at this a little differently? Or is there some other way to see this than I'm seeing it? Because the way I'm seeing it always puts me in this adversarial position. And I better think of how else to do this. So I don't always end up in an adversarial place. Yes. What was that? Oh, new. Okay. Probably not. The problem is that we have no way of determining what would be doing it right. So the simplest thing is. But you see, that implies that you're worrying about doing it right is not doing it right.

[84:56]

Because ideally in meditation, ideally, you could just settle into being here without worrying about whether you're doing it right or not. And what a relief that would be. So the key to that would be that when you start worrying about doing it right, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Start someplace. You know, not worrying about whether you're worrying about doing it right or not. Something else to that? Am I making sense? Was there more you wanted to ask about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. The answer is sit more. You know, in spite of what you may think, to actually notice that your mind is so busy

[86:00]

means there is a place of stillness from which you notice your mind being busy. Because when you're not still at all, you just race along with your mind racing along. And nobody knows that you're racing and that you're busy. So this is kind of a first step. You know, that's getting started is to notice how busy your mind is. And then, you know, different traditions are different, but you keep bringing your awareness back to your posture, back to your breath. Just the sensations of being here. And you let go of your thinking, even just briefly, is helpful. And, you know, people emphasize different things, but like Thich Nhat Hanh suggests, enjoying your breath. If there's some way to enjoy your breath, then your awareness will tend to stay with your breath more because it's so enjoyable.

[87:05]

The Zen tradition emphasizes a little more, rather than enjoyment, emphasizes energy. Vigor. Throw yourself into following your breath. Stay with your breath. So that's one whole thing. The other kind of thing, if you're interested, is you start asking your mind that's so busy, what are you up to? So this can be like a koan, you know. What are you racing around for? What are you trying to do? Where are you trying to get to? What is it you really want? What are you looking for in your busyness? Is there something you want out of this? So, because, you know, that's a certain way to, you know, so you don't have to just try to get rid of that. You're also sort of saying like, what's really, what do you really want here? It's a way to honor your mind racing,

[88:09]

that at the root of it, even if there's some confusion, at the root of it, there's some integrity and sincerity there of, you know, I'd like to have intimacy. I'd like connection. I'd like love. I want approval. You know, I'd like respect. What is it I want? Because, and then, if you recognize that, then you say, is this racing around, is that racing around actually helping you to get the things that you want? Or does it turn out that the racing around is getting in the way of getting what you really want? So if your mind is busy anyway, ask it. You can also ask it from time to time. What are you doing? It's better if you can be kind about it, though, too, of course. You know, what is it you're seeking? What is it you want? Rather than like when the parents come in the room and the kids have spilled a bunch of stuff, and you say, what's going on here anyway? It must be bad, you know.

[89:14]

It must not be. It must have been up to no good. You want to honor your mind, like, because, you know, our minds are not stupid. I mean, from time to time, our minds are confused. But, you know, if the basic way you go about your life is, I'm going to take care of this, I'm going to handle that. I mean, how much passion can you have there? So sometimes your mind will go off like, huh, you know, daydreaming about, you know, a love affair or something. If you already had love in the way you were doing things, you don't go looking for it somewhere else. You go looking for love somewhere else when you don't have it here. So what does that tell you about the way you're doing here and now? So that's like, well, then follow your breath with love. If you want love, you know, love your breath. Be with your breath with love. If you're going to like, I'm going to get the meditation right. I'm going to do just what I should.

[90:15]

I'm going to this. I'm going to, you know. Where's the love? You think like, if I do it well enough, I'll get the love. I'll get their approval. But you never can do it well enough. So if you want love and approval, then, you know, give it to yourself. But first, you know, ask, well, what are you doing? All that busyness, all that racing around. What are you looking for? What do you want? This is very important. You know, because if you know that, you can keep coming back to it. And when you're confused or lost, you either study like, what is it you really want? Or how do I realize that or express that or come back to that more clearly and truly than I am? I've gotten off some place. And then you're the, this is like the flower of your life force blooming.

[91:18]

You help the flower of your life force to bloom by asking the flower of your life force, what are you doing here? What do you really want? What are you seeking? What are you looking for? And you help it to then express itself and to unfold. So we've been at this quite a while now. Why don't we stop and we'll do a few minutes of walking here before we have a sitting. Let's do that, as we did earlier. So I'll turn this off. By the way, so when you're walking, and this is such a slow walking, it's a really nice time to let your awareness be in your feet and feel the floor and how the floor can actually support you. Something like support is not just, you know, abstract. It's how you stand. It's how you sit. Are you supported or do you allow the support or receive the support or not?

[92:24]

So let your foot, you know, feel big and broad and we'll support, we'll support you very well. Have us take a short break now. Maybe 10 or 12 minutes. You can stretch or walk or use the bathrooms as you wish or lie down. And then I'll hit a bell. We can reconvene. I'm going to do a short talk and then we'll have a little walking here and a sitting to end with. Last chance before the end to stretch, leap, dance down the hallway. I doubt if any of you will do that. Anyway, thank you. See you soon.

[93:18]

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