Well, good evening once again. So tonight I wanted to talk about concentration in terms of the metaphor of home we're using and how to, various other metaphors that relate to this one. Basically and so this, so in terms of concentration or just in the sense of home, whichever you pick, usually we have the idea of home being a place where you let some things in and then other things you keep out. And in this kind of a home, it's a little sort of, sometimes in Zen it's called a little

[01:10]

nest. You set up a little nest. This is, and we set this up in our sort of mind and our being, both physically and mentally. And basically we want to have things in our home that we know how to relate to and what to do with. Right? That would be nice. And the things that are well behaved and well mannered and know how to behave themselves in our presence. And the things that are kind of a little more ill-mannered and don't know how to behave themselves, we try to not let them in. This is probably appropriate like in a, like in Zen Center in the city we found that we started out, when we first got the building in the early 70s, we left the front door unlocked because we thought that this was an appropriate Buddhist way to relate to the world.

[02:12]

And it turns out that lots of people then come into the building that don't know how to behave themselves appropriately, and then head directly up to various rooms and walk right into people's rooms and, you know, start opening drawers. And even if somebody's there, it doesn't seem to matter to them, you know, one way or another, they'll just go out on their own, you know, waiting for you to say something. If you don't say anything, they just go about their business. It's very interesting. So in that case, we did, you know, decide to lock the doors after a while. It's a little bit of a nuisance to have those kind of visitors. But so this is all what I'm talking about, you know, we have to be practical about this. But our basic kind of strategy is to generally to set up this kind of a space where we keep some things out and we have other things we let in.

[03:12]

And what this means is that we have a kind of, if you think about it all, there's a kind of boundary there. And when you have a boundary, then you have like guards. You have somebody guards the boundary. And not just as we were talking about in terms of mindfulness, where you know who comes and goes, but you actually have the possibility that when something gets in that you don't like, then you can have anger because, you know, the boundary didn't work. And something, or you can, something can get in and you have sadness because, or something that was in that you liked and left, you can, you know, have abandoned, you can be abandoned. So you're there, you are the idea of you, you know, are in this little space. Here I am, and then I have certain kinds of companions here, you know, some that I like

[04:15]

and some that I don't. And then I can have various reactions to either something I want leaving or something else coming. And there tends to be then a kind of general state of agitation over maintaining the proper boundary. Maintaining the boundary, there has to be kind of a general state of alertness. You know, we're on alert all the time, right? So how can you relax? See, with this kind of state of affairs. The other, of course, basic fact, or in some ways, you know, the basic fact in Buddhism is that this kind of strategy doesn't work, and in fact, we have very little control over what comes and goes, and that it's impossible to do this, to actually carry out this strategy to any degree of satisfaction or happiness or, you know, it doesn't work, does it? So we have what, just simply speaking, you know, Buddha said life is suffering, and then

[05:18]

he said having to, you know, things that you don't like, having to be with things that you don't like, this is a suffering. And then having things you like, you know, having to be separated from things you like, this is a suffering. So here we are in our little house, sometimes stuff gets in that we didn't want, and sometimes stuff goes away that we wanted, and there we are. With the general state of alertness and readiness and up in arms, when the wrong thing shows up, get out of here, and when the right thing shows up, we can sort of try to be nice and ingratiating or whatever it is, it's our strategy for keeping something around, you know, we'll do whatever it says. Anyway, this seems to be, if you examine it all, this is a rather... and then if you start

[06:24]

thinking about concentration, you can see that this kind of concentration is very kind of weak and this basic kind of strategy and arrangement for the mind or setting up this kind of place, creating in a sense this kind of sense of myself being in this certain place and trying to structure things to keep some things out and have other things can get in. And you can see that on one hand, you know, it doesn't work very well, and on the other hand, it also means that we have a lot of... there's a lot of charge around it, there's a lot of emotion around it, because you have to be very alert to maintain this, and then you have anger and you have little battles and you have outrage and you have annoyance and lots of things happening. And if you think about it in terms of concentration, then there's two kinds of ideas of concentration.

[07:27]

One kind of concentration, you focus very narrowly on something and then you try to exclude everything else, okay? So like, if you were to think of... if you were to, in meditation practice, to be concentrating on following your breath, you try to follow your breath and then if a sound happens, you're trying not to hear... you're trying not to hear the sound. Or if your knee hurts, you're trying not to experience your knee hurting. So you're trying not to experience a whole bunch of stuff. This is, again, the same kind of... another version of the boundary state. We set up a boundary then, we're trying to focus on something, we're trying to keep this other stuff out and not experience it, okay? So you see, if you have that kind of idea of concentration, then you'll have the same problems. It won't work. Unless you happen to be, you know, a very unusual person, extremely kind of willful and... willful and that... what is that other word?

[08:32]

Yeah, kind of stubborn and... and in a way kind of compulsive. You have to have a kind of element of, you know, really compulsive, like you're really going to do this, you're really not going to pay any attention to the other stuff, you're just going to do this. And some people can kind of do that for a while until, you know, you're a little tired or you missed breakfast or somebody says something to you and, you know, something gets through and it all falls apart. And then you start over again. So, this kind of concentration will... this is a kind of, you know, small kind of concentration then. And this kind of home is a kind of little... it's like, as I mentioned, it's a kind of little nest someplace that we're trying to keep protected and cozy for me. Now, if you... once... once we start, as we're doing now in meditation, we start observing

[09:42]

how things actually work and we start noticing that this isn't really possible. And you can also begin to notice that, as I mentioned, the basic... just this actual... this way of going about it is actually setting up disturbances because we've established a boundary. So, the alternative to this is to eliminate the boundary, right, and not have a boundary. So, in this kind of sense then, concentration becomes something that we're trying to work everything into the concentration. Some people do this kind of... this other kind of concentration pretty naturally. Like, I read one time an interview... somebody was interviewing Reggie Jackson. Reggie Jackson was quite a good baseball player, is now, I think, in the Hall of Fame probably you know, whatever, you know, hit over 500 home runs or something.

[10:43]

Anyway, he was quite a dynamic, but... baseball player. And he said in this interview, somebody asked him about what he concentrates on. He said, do you try to concentrate on the ball and exclude everything else? And he says, no, I concentrate on everything. You know, the stadium, the crowd, the noise, I let it all in. And then, you know, that's all part of what I'm doing. See? And then, I focus all of that on hitting, you know, in my being. I'm trying to focus all of that. And so, he was, you know, he hit three home runs in one World Series game one time. And he was known as, for a while, as Mr. October, because when things were really, like at the World Series, like the end of the baseball season, the biggest games of the year, he was even more focused and did better because there's much more energy then at that time

[11:47]

in the stadium, in the stands, in the players. And so, somehow, you see, his... I think that probably had something to do with it. His idea of concentration was this, that you let everything in, and to do this, you see, is to change your basic way of approach to things. And it's not initially, you know, or for some time, it's not all that, you know, easy, because that means that you're getting energy and experiences that you're not used to handling. You have a whole different volume of energy, and the circuitry of your body is not prepared for that. You know, you're going to suddenly have a lot more energy, and then it's like being on a horse or something, that how do you ride a wild horse when you haven't ridden a wild horse before? And so, it takes some getting used to that your body, chemistry, and circuitry, and your being

[12:50]

can adapt to a greater, different level of energy, and how to handle a much wider range of experience rather than trying to not have certain experiences and have the other experiences, and maintain this little nest for yourself inside this little border. And, you know, suddenly much more is going on, and then it can be pretty overwhelming. So, we kind of have to do this, you know, we can have, like we do meditation practice, we have a little practice at letting go of the boundary, and just letting it seem, having experience come up, and it's going to be a little more wild oftentimes than what our experience normally is, where we're better able to control it. So, this is the basic idea, you know, sometimes, for instance, like people have trouble going to sleep because of the sound of traffic, or there's some other sound, see. So, again, if you try to

[13:54]

shut out the sound, then you're maintaining a level of attention to shut out the sound, that's a level, that's a kind of tension, and you have to tense up your body to not get the sound. Whereas, if you include the sound, and you let the sound throw through your being, and you can use the sound, you know, oftentimes you can use the sound to relax you, even if it's a kind of sound that you don't really like, or you're not used to that kind of a sound relaxing you. But if you work at it a little bit, you can often let the sound soften various parts of you, just like the sound of the rain can relax you, the sound of the traffic can relax you, the sound of a radio next door can relax you, or light can relax you, you know, it's not quite dark. So, there's many more possibilities for including things than we, you know, usually understand, and usually, so, this is to, we're making this, in meditation practice,

[14:57]

we're making this basic shift in our approach, and as I said, you know, we're going to have to do this with some degree of common sense, and not just, you know, be foolish about it, open our doors to the world, etc. But you will become more sensitive in meditation practice, so when you go out in the world, you're a little more vulnerable, you're a little more open, things can get to you a little more easily, and you're in some ways not as competent as you were, because you don't have quite the defenses that you had before, see? But you have the possibility. Now, the other thing that's happening here is that, in this way, we're also working on one kind of, another way of thinking about concentration, then, is that, as I mentioned when we were first sitting down, is that in this kind of idea of concentration, you're trying to do something with your whole body and mind,

[15:58]

with your whole being. That means parts of your being are not very, you know, likable, or pleasant, or enjoyable, they don't know how to behave, they don't know how to be in the company of other parts of your being, and various parts of your being will be, you know, criticizing other parts. You know, so one part of, and we tend to identify with one part as being me, and the other part is, you know, across the border. So it's a little bit like I was telling somebody, you know, somebody, I think last week, but I read part of the article a while back in the New Yorker about somebody who was in Azerbaijan, or Georgia, or someplace in the Soviet Union, but the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians are right across this little border from each other, and they've been kind of at each other's throats for years, and now it's sort of breaking out again, where, you know, a few hundred people

[17:01]

have been killed over the last several months. And apparently they're Azerbaijanis, you know, he said, you know, to the, he met some Azerbaijanis, and he says to them, well, you know, you know, I can't tell the difference between you and the Armenians now, how do you tell them, how do you tell them apart? You know, how can you tell when it's an Armenian and not an Azerbaijani? And they said, well, their noses are longer and more crooked. And it turned out that the Armenians said the same thing about the Azerbaijanis. So this is very typical, you see, that there's this little border, and then, you know, one part of our being says about the other part, um, you're such a goof-off, you know, you're never getting anything done, you're just trying to, you know, laze about, and then, you know, that part of your being, if you give it a chance, will say back to the other part, you're always such a dredge, you're always working so hard, you never have any fun, what's wrong with you? Well, and then we usually tend to identify with

[18:06]

one, I'm lazy, or I'm a workaholic. And the other one we say, oh, you know, that's not me, that's a hindrance. You know, if I'm a workaholic, then this lazy one, that's a hindrance, that's a problem I have, that I'm lazy sometimes. And if you tend to be kind of laid back and lazy, and identify with that one, then you say about the other one, you say, well, I'm a lazy person, and, you know, but every so often I get kind of, you know, possessed to do something. But that's not really me, I'm, you know, I'm laid back, I'm kind of lazy. So we say, you know, so we have this little thing, so if you want to do, so when you, when we sit, we're trying to, you know, do something with our whole body and mind, and we're not really, the effort is not to,

[19:07]

like, do something the right way. What would be the right way to say it? You know, with the workaholic mode, with the lazy mode, with, you know, which one is right? Which one should identify with and set it up against the others? You know, I'm really going to be a good meditation student, then that's me, I'm a good meditation student, and then you're lazy, and then we say to these other parts of yourself, you're lazy, you're goofing off, you know, you shouldn't, you know, you're having too many doubts, you know, you've got problems, and get out of here, you know, because I'm trying to meditate now. So we say, go away. See, here we are setting up this kind of little border, this boundary. So our, you know, in the long run, though, to have this meditation practice be home, you know, to have it be the way to your long lost home, and have it be the way to harmonize or to do something with your whole body and mind, we'll have to stop identifying with one of the

[20:14]

other aspects as being more me than the other. And home, in that sense, is someplace where, you know, we can invite all these parts of ourself to hang out here. Okay, there's no, and there's no boundary, and there's no particular being we're supposed to be, but everybody has to at least agree to sit here, or else you'll walk out the door, which is okay, too, you can always come back. But at least it gives us the chance to make this kind of effort for this kind of completeness. And as I was mentioning at the beginning here, you know, over time we'll find that the part we identified with, actually we have,

[21:17]

you know, something to learn from the part that we've been excluding or keeping out. Somebody, you know, if I'm a workaholic, and then there's some part of me that is really looking for some enjoyment and ease and relaxation and well, a kind of just well-being, rather than being driven to accomplish something. And so I need to know something then about how to work without being quite so obsessed about the results, and to work in a way that I actually enjoy it, and actually enjoy the work, and I can actually have some sense of ease in the work and pleasure. And ease and pleasure and joy, these are all considered to be then positive virtues. This is why they're considered to be positive virtues in terms of how to have good concentration. If you don't have ease or pleasure and joy when you're doing something, then you're not

[22:23]

able to concentrate that well, because it's not much fun, and your concentration will break after a while as you look around for something that would be more fun and more enjoyable. And when it's fun and enjoyable, and there's some ease there, then you can, then you literally, there's, in the sutras, so to speak, in Buddhist writings, anyway, that's when you feel at home in your being, when you have some ease and joy. So it won't be quite right in this kind of scenario, you see, just to change what we identify as I. You know, so for instance, like if I'm not an angry person and then I get angry, right? And then at some point I say, well, of course I have a right to be angry, you know? Us women have been oppressed for centuries, or whatever it is, you know? So

[23:27]

I did this for a while, right? And I identify, instead of identifying with the one who's not angry, I can start identifying with the anger. That's really right. It's really right to be angry. It's the thing to do to be angry. And then I can get up and I can make angry speeches or whatever I do to express my anger, okay? And that other wimp, you know, that won't speak out, you know, forget her, forget him, you know, because, you know, this is really me. This is more me than the other one. So we can switch our, you know, then we've just done the same thing, though. Now it's the right to be angry and then the other one who doesn't get angry will say, get out of here, I don't want you around, you know? Because basically, you know, what that means is that we would have to have a, we have to relate to ourself, we have to be able to contain in our being a state of conflict. Now that we can tolerate conflict in our being, this is tremendously important. And that our being doesn't have to be something that there's one way, my way, the right way.

[24:34]

And the rest of you better watch your step around me. Because I'll get on your case right away. You see? So it won't be any better to identify with the other, you know, to switch our identification, the point. So as I was saying, you know, a couple weeks ago, all of those, each aspect is equally either, you know, we could say either equally me or equally not me. There's no reason to set one up against the other and say, this is more me. And so our being, what is I then is not any one of these is not particularly I. I am the one who can see or, you know, so to speak, is mindful or aware of all of these. Anytime you start telling somebody about, well, you know, I have this conflict, there's also the person who's saying, I have this conflict. And it's just someone, so to speak, who can see all

[25:37]

the others. You're mindful or aware of the others. And who's that? As soon as you identify it, becomes an object, it's another character. And there's no reason to identify it with it as I. So this means that I, in some senses, and rather than a little container here, you know, then we say, this is a large, vast space with no boundaries in which all these other, in which these characters are. So this large, vast space in Buddhism is sometimes called emptiness, your true home. Your true home is not particularly any one of these, you know, identities or experiences, you know, that you might identify as I and set it up against the others with a kind of border. And now I'm going to fight to maintain what I consider to be I.

[26:42]

See, there's a lot of pain in this kind of situation where we set one up and fight to maintain it against all comers. And it's basically an impossible task, and yet we seem to think that it's the thing to do. So you might find at times that you're, that you actually, you find that you're somebody you haven't met yet. You know, you can be breathing or doing or out in the world or driving or any number of things, and then you, this is not somebody you've met before. You know, this is, this is a new person. You know, and there's no reason to serve. It's like if in cooking, I tell people in cooking, like, I used to think in cooking, the thing was to do is to make particular dishes taste the way they were supposed to taste. Isn't that what cooking's about? Isn't that what life is about? Making a person that acts the way a person is supposed to act, making yourself into that

[27:50]

kind of a person, you know, acting the way you're doing the things you're supposed to do, being the way you're supposed to be. And then if it's not like that, and then how do you tell? Well, you have to have some idea from somewhere, you know, in your head. You have to have a standard or a thing to measure yourself up to or down from or whatever. Is that right? So I used to get carrots and things, and I'd try to make them taste the way they were supposed to taste. And at some point it occurred to me, like, can't I just appreciate the way a carrot tastes and find out what a carrot tastes like? Isn't that, isn't that possible? Rather than trying to make the carrot taste a certain way that something is supposed to taste with a certain kind of seasoning, why not taste the way something is? So this is, again, the same kind of shift from trying to make it a certain way to just just meeting the way it is, tasting the way it is, meeting yourself. So Zen teacher Tozan said, wherever I go, I meet myself.

[28:56]

I meet myself wherever I go. And then he said, he is the same as me, but I am not him. And so that's what we've been talking about. You know, you could say I am an angry person, but actually, you know, you're actually also different than being an angry person. You're not just an angry person. So anyway, in some ways, this is easy enough to talk about, and I think you have some understanding about this sort of thing, and you also can see how difficult it is, practically speaking, to begin to let go of some of the boundaries and to, and to stop identifying with particular

[30:01]

experiences as being more me or setting up some particular way of being or doing that is the way it's supposed to be, which is I, and defending that against possibly being some other kind of person that is less appropriate in some way, that we think is less appropriate. This way, we have a divided being all the time when we do that. When we shift the way of doing it, then it's like, I meet myself wherever I go, or I can then meet myself. It's not some, I'm not somebody, this is a new moment, I'm not somebody I've met before, so I have to meet myself. Probably it'll be somebody pretty nice. You'll probably like the person, okay? The person you find yourself being. So, Dogen Zenji calls this, what it is like, he says, is to be unstained. Unstained is like, you know, this big, this empty space is not stained. Mind is not stained by,

[31:06]

you know, any of these experiences that we have. Awareness or consciousness is not stained or changed in any way by all these things that happen. Awareness or consciousness doesn't have any shape or form, it still doesn't have any shape or form. And so this, he says, is like, you meet somebody and you don't particularly think about whether you like them or not. And this includes you. So we, in meditation, we have it just to taste the way we are, moment after moment, without thinking particularly whether we like this person or not. We're not trying to make a good person and eliminate a bad person. We're just meeting the person that we are without thinking much about whether we like that person or not. And then we have this big, vast kind of concentration, because everybody's included. All parts of our being are included in this space now. So this week in my cooking classes, I was, I found myself telling people,

[32:22]

well, if you're going to appreciate anything, you know, we have to be able to appreciate the simplest thing, like a carrot or a piece of asparagus. Because if you can't appreciate the simplest thing, and if you think that cooking or life is about always making something new, finding some new ingredients, some new combination, give me a break, right? Are you kidding? I mean, so we ought to have, you know, so just to be able to take one thing, you know, that's why tonight I give you a cookie and, you know, see if you can appreciate one thing, one moment, one time, one experience, and actually have it touch you and you can, you know, appreciate it. And it's true, some things, like a cookie, it's easier to do that with, but it's not, it's less impossible to do it with other things when we stop

[33:24]

purposely fighting them, you know, with the idea that we're maintaining our self-integrity or we're making the person we think we ought to be or something. Okay, so this practice is just to meet the person that we are moment after moment. This way is like welcoming ourself home and all parts of our being can feel at home or be supported then. And we have to ask each part of our being not to attack some other part. And we stop by just to, and partly this is by that we stop identifying with one kind of experience as being more me than some other kind and thinking we should be then setting up a boundary and fighting off other kinds of experiences as being less me, less appropriate. And over time, although this is, you know, not necessarily easy

[34:29]

for any of us, over time we become, you know, much more whole. And we can appreciate and support others and, you know, ourselves in some way that we weren't able to before. When I started cooking, you know, I looked in the cookbook like, well, what do I do with spinach? And there's spinach souffle and spinach crepes and, you know, nobody says just put the spinach in a pot and turn the heat on underneath it and put a, you know, and let it cook down. And maybe you want a little salt on there. Nobody tells you that. But you could just have spinach. You don't need to have, you know, spinach souffle or spinach this or spinach that. All this, you know, you can just have spinach and you can appreciate and enjoy spinach.

[35:32]

And our life won't always be some kind of, you know, gourmet meal out of the cookbooks or out of the Buddhist books or whatever it is, you know. Because all the Buddhist books are the same way. The Buddhist books tell you all these recipes for being a great enlightened person. And so that was the thing you were going to be able to do suddenly. I mean, forget it. Since I went down to Tassajara last, I was there last week. My friend Patty and I, we were leading a Zen yoga workshop and Judy was there stretching and sitting and doing a little eating. I don't remember if I announced early enough in the retreat or if I do, that was another event.

[36:40]

But I think it's a very good practice to practice enjoying your food, to really try to enjoy eating. Because, I mean, that may be true of a number of things, you know, but eating is a kind of obvious one to practice it on. Because in order to enjoy something, you have to pay attention, be present and concentrated. And you have to be careful in some ways about your state of mind, so that you don't get greedy. If it's too good, or if you get greedy, then you won't be enjoying the food that's actually in your mouth. I think I've told you before that story, which I like it so much, I'll tell you again, that James Perez, the postnatal teacher, tells about his son who was a couple years old and he was trying to teach his son to just take one strawberry at a time. And his son had his mouth full of

[37:45]

strawberries and one strawberry in each hand. And James was trying to say, you know, just one strawberry at a time from the bowl. And his son was screaming and hollering and crying. And his mouth is full of strawberries. You can see it because he's wailing away, his mouth full of strawberries. So this is some tendency we seem to have. Have you noticed? We used to ask Suzuki Roshi questions like that. Why? Why is it like this? And one time he said, ignorance. Ignorance is as far back in the chain of causation that Buddhism goes, but it's not a real answer, is it? Because we're not paying attention, because we're ignoring the way things are, because, what, it's inherent. So another time he was asked why, and he said, no reason.

[38:51]

But this is the way we are. So it's pretty nice to pay attention to food. And that's also different, to enjoy food is also different than eating food without paying attention to in some way become full. So it's very interesting. We have these kind of simple opportunities quite often. And sometimes it's pretty hard. I find I want to, you know, read the paper or something while I'm eating or do something else. And just to pay attention to food and actually enjoy eating, pretty hard sometimes. But it's very, you know, immediately kind of, you know, satisfying and nurturing or grounding, stabilizing for us in our life. So it's not as though we have to wait until meditation, you know, in order to practice.

[39:58]

Anyway, I was down in Tassajara, and one of the things that happens to me when I get to Tassajara is I start thinking about my first Zen teacher, Suzuki Roshi. And somehow this time I was thinking about the first time I met him. What I want to talk about tonight is, which I talked about some at Tassajara. This is something of a talk about relationship or how any one of us relates to the world, what we think the world is, and so on. And when I first met Suzuki Roshi, I had just done a period of sitting at the old Zen Center, San Francisco. And afterwards, we each would go in a line, we lined up, and we'd go out through Suzuki Roshi's

[41:10]

office. His office was adjacent to the meditation hall, so we'd step into his office, and then he would greet each one of us. We would bow to each other. And I was about 20, and I was concerned, as you might guess, as to whether or not he would like me, or what would he think of me. Would he appreciate me? So I was kind of, you know, a little curious about this, a little anxious, a little nervous. And it became, you know, it came my turn to bow, and we bowed to each other.

[42:17]

And when you bow, I mean, you have to look away for a moment, right? Because that's what it is. And then I was looking at him, he was looking at me, and there wasn't a single clue. As to whether or not he liked me. There wasn't the slightest anything. I mean, it was kind of nothing. There wasn't any sort of smile, and there wasn't also, there wasn't any kind of sign of distaste. There wasn't, you know, there wasn't anything there. I mean, as far as, like, some kind of reaction to me. And so I went on.

[43:31]

And, you know, actually this is sort of an aside, but, you know, a few years later I had applied for a CO. You know, so I wrote I was a Buddhist, and I was not going to go into the army, and so on. And so the FBI, you know, comes around to interview people. So the FBI came to talk to Suzuki Roshi. And at some point, I don't remember exactly when, but at some point I somehow received a copy of this sort of FBI report. They talked to teachers and various things, and it said that the Zen priest at Sokoji Temple, Reverend Suzuki, had said that, yes, he was a very sincere student since he, you know, that as demonstrated by his coming to early morning meditation quite regularly. That was the first I knew that that's what he thought.

[44:41]

And there is a place in Dogen. Dogen Senji is the, you know, the founder of Zen in Japan, the Soto Zen school at least. And in this one fascicle he talks about, there's a place where he talks about, he says to become, to attain realization is not what you think it is, even if you think so. When you attain realization, you don't say, aha, this is realization just as I expected. Realization invariably differs from your expectation. A realization is not what you think it is. So you, for this reason, you shouldn't rely too much on what you're thinking.

[45:48]

And what you think one way or another is not a help for realization. Began to sound a little bit like no sign of liking or disliking. What you think one way or another is not a help. And he says, if you, Dogen says, if you keep this in mind, then you'll be, you'll be cautioned not to be small minded. Oh, if I just do this. Oh, if I just do that. Oh, if everybody would just do this. You know, then, then for sure I would attain realization. See, this is being, you know, small minded. So he says, even if you think, even if you were to say, aha, this is realization just as I expected, it would really actually be different.

[46:50]

And then he says, later on in this fascicle, he says, what it is like is to be unstained. To be unstained is like meeting someone for the first time and not liking or disliking. Or like looking at the moon of flowers and not wishing for more color or brightness. Of course, it's not just the moon or flowers, but anything. Looking, tasting, sitting, working, not wishing for more color or brightness. I didn't think much about it at the time. You know, at the time Suzuki Roshi bowed. I bowed, we bowed to each other and I didn't, mostly at the time I was thinking,

[47:57]

gee, I wonder what he really thinks. Or, gee, this is strange or something, you know, I mean. I didn't feel, but I felt, you know, received. I felt accepted. I mean, I felt in some ways like he, I didn't feel I felt received in that sense, like he could see right into me and right through me. And even at that level, there wasn't anything there that he wasn't willing to meet. You know, like looking away or being perturbed or afraid or startled. Or embarrassed. That's a very interesting quality in someone. So it wasn't as though I didn't feel, you know, it wasn't as though I felt put off.

[49:12]

In some way, or, you know, like some people, you get more of the feeling like there's a kind of austerity to the person or a kind of a, sometimes a kind of a strength. And when they look at you, there's kind of not liking or disliking, but at the same time, there's this kind of feeling like, well, when you get it to your face, together, I'll be approving or I'll accept you. So, you know, that kind of demeanor. So this is a very interesting quality. This is the kind of thing we study with, you know, a good teacher. And it's, you know, I think someone is, becomes like that because,

[50:19]

you know, the person knows his own, his or her own being so thoroughly. Everything is in our own being. So if we don't, if we can't receive it or see it or be with it in another, it just means we haven't been with it yet in ourself. We haven't, we have, in some way, don't have access to it in ourself. We haven't been willing to meet it in our own being and become in some way comfortable with it or integrate some aspect of ourself into our being. Because if someone's, when somebody's done that, then they can be with, you know, other people. And we can have some kind of, you know, experience of the possibility of that in our life. So I think that, you know, now it's interesting, it's hard to know what,

[51:27]

at the time, sometimes it's hard to know what is important in one's practice, in one's spiritual life, or the unfoldment of one's spiritual practice, it's hard to know always what's important, what was, what's pivotal. And now I think, gee, that was, that was actually pretty powerful, a very strong and powerful teaching, without any effort, obviously, for it to be a teaching. Here, I have something I want to show you, like how you meet somebody. You know, it's just being who he is. And I've been thinking about that too, just in terms of meditation, or,

[52:29]

um, you know, our own, in our own spiritual life, or how do, how do you, you know, how do I, how do each of us, how do we relate to our own being? And this is the quality, you know, we're working on trying to develop in meditation, the quality of being with ourself without liking or disliking, without praise or, or criticism, just being with ourself, whoever we find ourself happening to be. And usually, you know, or sometimes, you know, we sometimes will slip into the mode of thinking that meditation or spiritual practice is about making ourself into the person that we, we could like. See the difference?

[53:30]

But we're not really, in meditation, trying to make ourself into the person we like, we would like to be. We're just trying to receive and know the person we are without much like or dislike, and without much wishing for brighter color, more color or brightness. And this is, of course, true if any, you know, the possibility for this kind of relationship becomes, we have more of the possibility for this kind of relationship when we're in a relationship

[54:39]

over some period of time. Because sometimes we get into a relationship, looking for some excitement or something to help us or something to do something for us. And then, after some period of time, it's more like the person we're with is someone we can be with without liking or disliking and the other person tends to receive us more without liking or disliking. This is obviously simplifying it, but what I'm trying to say is the possibility is there. So, even when I say, talk about enjoying your food, it's not so much because, you know, we like

[55:42]

to enjoy our food, but we need that kind of possibility actually of enjoying. Enjoying helps us be with things. We can have a little sense of enjoying or resonating or being moved by something or touched by something. And it's a kind of, you know, Buddhism talks about various kinds of so-called perfections or virtues of various kinds and, you know, one list is the six paramitas or perfections, and the first is generosity. So, this is a kind of generosity too. You know, it takes time to be with someone or to be with your food, so it's a kind of gift, you know, it's a kind of, it's our generosity to receive our own being, like in meditation, or to receive something else in our life,

[56:49]

like a cup of tea or a plate of food. And the fact that we give something that kind of time or attention, even if it's just a little bit, to give something our attention is a kind of generosity. And it's also a kind of patience, and it takes a kind of concentration and mindfulness. And then we can know something in this way. So, sometimes when I talk like this, you know, I

[57:56]

feel a little, you know, to my own talk, I have the kind of reaction that when I went to the Thich Nhat Hanh retreat. It's all very well and good to say that, and maybe you could do a little more often, I think, to myself. You know, I don't just give these talks for you, you know. You're here so I can give this talk to myself. So in that way, you're very kind and generous and patient with me. I certainly thought when I started practicing meditation,

[59:11]

you know, I certainly thought I would have some realization, some powerful realization within a year or so. I thought that would be a good length of time to give it. And I had, of course, heard these stories about people who were meditating for 20 or 30 years and hadn't gotten it yet. And I thought, well, I won't be like them because I'm going to try harder. I'll be more sincere than they ever were. And you can see what happened. And I guess, you know, Dogen was right. You know, realization is not what you thought. And when you attain realization, you don't say, aha, this is realization just as I expected.

[60:14]

And one of the interesting things about that word, you know, in Japanese, the Japanese that Dogen used is the word for realization is also the word for manifestation. You can translate the word realization or manifestation or actualization. So we could also say then, you know, just set aside realization and say, when you experience something as it actually is, it's never the way you think that it is. When you manifest something or experience something, you don't say, aha, this is, you know, when you sit and meditate and you breathe, you don't say, aha, this is my breath, just as I thought it would be. Even if you say so, your breath invariably differs. Your breathing invariably differs from the way you thought it would be or what you thought breath is.

[61:18]

This is a moment of actualization, a moment of realization, a moment of manifestation. Just to experience something and find out and know in that sense, in a certain sense to know, but to experience something and see it's not the way you thought it was. And it happens, that's something all the time. We could do any time if we stop, when we stop and we experience something, we see it's not the way we thought it is. It's not the way we expected it to be. It invariably differs from our thinking. The world of actuality or manifestation and realization invariably differs from our thinking. This is why we try to, so to speak, stop thinking and actually experience something, whether it's our breath or some food or a person in front of us or a cup of tea.

[62:24]

Because whatever that experience is, that we actually experience something, taste something, know something that way. It's not like our thinking. So this is like I mentioned at the beginning of the sitting. I think there are many good meditation techniques and guidelines, meditation practices. But at the same time, it's important that we're finding out how to meditate and what meditation is tonight. What our body has to say, what our breath has to say, what our being has to say, without much thought of whether we like it or don't like it, we can have that kind of realization.

[63:28]

Very simply, very directly. It's interesting. I find this most easy for me to be sitting down and meditating. But I think it's because I'm so attuned now to shifting into this mode when I sit down to meditate. But when I sit down to eat, it's much harder. Somehow the structure or the people or the setting can't always do it. It's harder. When I'm in the grocery store, it's harder. When I'm in traffic, it's even harder. But it doesn't mean it's not possible. And partly it means we have to

[64:34]

I guess in a simple sense, be willing to be where we are and not to think that the only place to do this kind of practice or effort is while we're meditating. I think I'd like to stop. Anyway, I hope you have some from this talk some sense of

[66:21]

the power of this kind of practice of receiving something, your own being, or a cup of tea or your food, your breath, with some sense of not liking or disliking, not trying to make yourself over into someone you like, but just to know yourself in various ways at various times under various circumstances. This is a Buddhist practice. And with this kind of practice, you have some harmony, peace and harmony in your life. Because the lack of peace and harmony is when you try to make yourself or somebody else over into someone you like. Right? Okay, let me see what time it is. I don't know if we

[67:29]

if you have anything you'd like to talk about, we have a few minutes or we can sit quietly or we can bow out. I'd like you to say more about the teacher, everything I read about the importance of having a teacher. And nowadays it seems like maybe we'll get together like this, but how important do you think it is to have a one-to-one relationship with the teacher? Well, to me, the important thing is to be a student, a good student. I think that the business of the teacher can be kind of over-emphasized. I like what Thich Nhat Hanh said when he said,

[68:35]

you know, you don't have to have a teacher, you know, the pine tree can be your teacher. But that means you have to go to the pine tree as you have to approach a pine tree as your teacher. In a way, what I'm saying tonight is your cup of tea can be your teacher and your food can be your teacher and so you have to meet things, you practice trying to meet things as though they're your teacher. And I think as you do that, then people will help you that way and the teacher will be there for you. You know, various kinds of teachers will be there for you. To me, it's a little bit like I notice sometimes people aren't particularly in a relationship and they're kind of waiting for a relationship to come along. But as far as I can tell, they don't seem to be practicing relating to people.

[69:41]

They're waiting for the person that they're going to be in the relationship with to come along and then they'll start relating when it's this right person that you're going to have the relationship with. See, but to me, it makes more sense to practice relating to each person. If you want to be in a relationship, then you practice relating. You don't wait for the relationship to come along. You practice relating and then you'll have many relationships and then you'll have some practice at what it is to be relating. And then, you know, each relationship will take each relationship that you're in then, each little relating. It's not like you do everything with everybody, right? But the possibilities that are in the relationship will then be able to come out. So to me, that would be the important thing then would be to practice, you know, approaching each thing as a teacher and to find out how to do that in a way that makes

[70:50]

sense. And sometimes it's easier, it seems to me, with a cup of tea than with a teacher. Don't you think? I just mean that sometimes... Well, in a certain way, the tea doesn't talk back, but on the other hand, you get teachers who talk back and tell you all kinds of ridiculous things. And so you can learn a lot from a cup of tea. And so, anyway, I feel like that's quite important. It is, but seems like another step, seems like the next step. I understand what you're saying. I don't know if I'd have known this four or five years ago that much. I've taken something else before to get to that. You had to hear a teacher say that. I had to hear a teacher say that, right. Every teacher. Yeah. Anyway, as far as a... You know, I think we all kind of could use or...

[72:01]

I don't know how to say, but I mean, I think even if you're the Dalai Lama, I mean, you have some important relationships in your life, and you work at cultivating relationships. And that's a large part of what you do. And so I think it behooves us then to cultivate relationship at each level. All I'm trying to say is, I don't say that the... And to me, that would be... I would perhaps say that's more important than just saying, well, you have the thing to do is to look around for the teacher that you could have the deep relationship with. See? Not that that's not important, but you know, one of the things that happened to us at Zen Center was we thought that the thing was to have the relationship with the teacher, with the great teacher, right? So then we weren't relating to each other. In fact, we're competing for this great relationship with this great teacher.

[73:06]

See? And then we're going like, oh, how come he's relating? Well, how come he doesn't, you know, meet to me like that? And, you know, and then... I'm reading about him and how he was with Suzuki Roshi, and all that went on at that time. So to me, you see, it's going to be more important to have relationship, you know, with each person and your friends and the things in your life. And if you have as well as that, or as part of that, or one aspect of that relationship with the teacher, great. But if you just go because, you know, somebody says the thing is to have

[74:07]

the relationship with the teacher, and then we've all heard this, and then here's all these people relating to the teacher, and then, you know, ignoring their spouse. You mean, my favorite story about that is this woman I finally met at Green Gulch, and she and her husband had been in this Buddhist group for some time, and she has since divorced her husband, but she, you know, at the time she said, well, you know, he never relates to me. He's always been, you know, holy or whatever. You know, I tell him I want to talk to him and he, you know, gets out his beads. Because that's what being spiritual is. So, this is, so I think, you know, one is, you know, should be careful, and so I try to see, well, what's the important point, right? So, to me, the important point is relating with, you know, the person you live with as well as the teacher, and then the more you can relate

[75:12]

to the person you live with, the more you can relate to yourself, the more you have a good relationship also with your teacher. The more you relate to the teacher, the more you can relate to yourself, should be the more you relate to yourself and the more you relate to your partner or spouse or friends, and it should have that kind of mutual empowering rather than I'm going to have this great relationship with the teacher and then somehow that takes me away from these other relationships, and it, you know, draws everything out of those other relationships, and then, you know, and there's so much locked up in this, you know, one particular relationship. So, to me, that's not, you know, particularly healthy. Yeah, yeah, right. Well, I'm not saying it, you know, exactly just for you, but just, you know, since we're talking. Obviously, well, and I'm also just trying to say that, you know, anyway, we can't wait for

[76:17]

the perfect great teacher to come along and the perfect great relationship to come along. So, we kind of have to, you know, make use or, you know, find the value in the people and relationships that are in our life, and the more we do that, then if when some great teacher does come along, then, you know, we have a chance to relate with them because we know something about relating. So, and in my life, you know, my experience, I've had, I can see where it's important having a teacher, but it also has been important to have been married and to have a daughter and, you know, to have parents. They're very, all, you know, powerful relationships, and they have different kinds of power, but they're all, you know, tremendous importance. Anyway, I don't know that I answered your question, but I,

[77:36]

you know, but I tried to tell you what I thought anyway, and then as, you know, the only addendum is, of course, you have to find out for yourself what is what. And also, I guess one other, just part of that is, you know, I mean, in my situation, for instance, you know, it's not like I know how to be a teacher or how to relate to people over some time because I haven't done that, you know. So, in some ways, you know, people have to help me if I'm going to do that, you know, and then it's sort of like, you know, we find out together something. And also in that sense, the, you know, the student stays with the teacher, the teacher stays with the student.

[78:40]

So, to me, that was very important in Suzuki Roshi's teaching. Sometimes the teacher is the student, sometimes the student is the teacher. That's a healthy relationship, too. And we should, you know, each of us needs to have that kind of confidence in our own being. Because that's part of that tendency to look for a teacher is, I don't know, I should get a teacher. But not knowing is pretty good, too. Some say not knowing, that's right. You got it. But Robert E. and Suzuki Roshi themselves say that it wasn't important to have a teacher. That's what I kind of conjure up as I make a way of teaching. So we can, you know, if you come to Buddhism in your 50s, as I did, you know, it's all kind of, it's kind of a mystery as far as the form goes, especially then.

[79:45]

So, I read a lot. Well, I'm kind of telling you, you know, just a slightly different side of that, which is also what is a kind of traditional saying in Zen and in Buddhism, when you're ready for a teacher, the teacher is there. And, you know, if you're going to follow that, then you also don't want to limit what form that teacher might take. Just like when you attain realization, it's not, you don't go, aha, this is realization just as I expected. When the teacher's there, you don't go, aha, this is just the kind of teacher I was going to meet. So you have to meet some teachers that you at first might not have recognized as teachers. And that's part of that kind of sense of when you are ready for the teacher,

[80:51]

or when you want a teacher, you know, then the teacher is there, or the teaching is there. So, we got all that on tape.

[81:25]

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