provide something for that purpose, which we will share with Zen Center and our guest speaker. Professor Murano is a professor at Ryushu University in Tokyo, and he deals with the translation of Buddhism into English, the problems of translating Buddhist thought into English. He is a managing editor of the Young East magazine, which we have brought to you. You can look it up. It's published in English also. To keep the social difference,

[01:03]

Hinduism is more powerful to the common people, and so Buddhism is criticized by Hindu people. The next reason is the coming of Muslim people, Islam people, and Mohammedanists. They come and destroy. They are image breakers. Everything breaks, destroys everything, and then die out. Some Buddhists already started a mission in Ceylon first. Just after the death of Buddha, some disciples went to Ceylon.

[02:13]

So in Ceylon, the original type of Buddhism has been preserved. I would like for you to say something about the practice of ordination, becoming ordained Buddha. I understand that any priest can ordain any other person. This is what I understand. I would like some clarification. What is the practice of ordination? I think most sects are similar institutions, but I don't know very much about the other sects. I'm telling you about Nichiren sect. Is that all right? Whereas ordination, yes, I'm an ordained priest, so I can ordain another man,

[03:25]

but not privately, because we say, I say, you see, for instance, just now, can I ordain you? No. This is some qualification and some group watching, for watching, see? And so we must have some ceremony, see, for that. And the first look is your quality, qualification, see? How many years you train yourself in chanting, and you see, practice in temple,

[04:26]

and what school, what subject you studied in school, to what kind of school you attend, and many other items. And then, when it was requested, satisfied by some, we have regulation books, you see? Then I can ordain you, and then we must have ceremony attended by some people, see? In Japan, I don't know I can ordain outside Japan. It's very difficult, because we have not so much evidence for the ordination

[05:37]

when we want to ordain outside Japan. Yes, so as far as Nichiren sect is concerned, nobody was ordained outside Japan. Is there different degrees of ordination? I guess we have this in some... I mean by ordination, the acquiring or acquisition of the capacity of teaching Buddhism. Teacher, qualification for teachers, that means, I mean by ordination. When you mean by, just initiation, that's different.

[06:45]

Initiation into priesthood, into monkhood, that's different, see? When we become, when we enter monkhood, we say just shammy. Shammy, that's usually a small boy becomes shammy, see? Ten or twelve years old boy becomes shammy, and works in temple, and then goes to school, and trains himself in some way, see, regular way, see? Then some years later, well, ten years or more later, he is ordained. He is given a teacher's certificate. Then you start some rank, rank, see? Rank. First in the lowest rank, and then so many years, according to his activities, merits, he promotes.

[07:57]

Yes. Buddhists are more advanced, spiritual. More spiritual than former. Oh, yes. You see, Mahayana Buddhism is more spiritual than Hinayana Buddhism. I mean to say, you see, the original form of Buddhism,

[09:05]

the original form of the discipline of Buddhism can be kept in India, but not outside of India. Because, for instance, the rule says a monk must wear only three pieces of clothes, see? One for loin, one for, see, coat, one for bed. That's only three are permitted, no more. But in a warm country, it can be done. When you go up, see, crossing the Himalayan mountains, you cannot, see?

[10:08]

So then, that spiritual movement comes out, see? We follow the Buddha. We follow the spirit of the Buddha, not the form of the Buddha, you see? We cannot follow the form, because this is too cold. You see? That's the development of spiritualism in Buddhism. My question, do you mean awareness? Huh? Do you mean awareness? Awareness. Where? Where is it? Awareness. Awareness. Awareness of who? Are you saying you're more aware? Ah, yes, yes. You see, just for what the Buddha means to say, see,

[11:09]

what is the point, see? He regulates the rules, but for what point the Buddha regulates those rules, see? That's important, not only formalism, see? That's the main point, is what, see? So, these Buddhists interpret this way, these Buddhists interpret this way. Then, many things develop, yes. But I wasn't sure if you were saying that in Japan, they were more aware. They didn't compare to foreigners. Not so far. Huh? You see what I'm saying? Yeah. He means more like Buddhism. I guess he's, I believe he's saying, wondering if you said the Japanese Buddhists,

[12:12]

because they're more spiritual and less formal, are more aware of, perhaps, the fundamentals of Buddhism than the Southern school. I guess he's wondering. Well, yes, I think that's why, you see, Buddhist philosophy is more developing in Japan than in Southern countries. Southern countries study sutras, and see, the Pali texts, and they learn the thoughts of many spiritual scholars, yes.

[13:14]

But there, the Buddhist philosophy is not so developed as in China or Japan, see? So, in that sense, I can say we are more aware. Yes, yes, yes. Could you tell me, in a sense, what is meant by a priest of Buddhism? I would think that Buddhism would not have a priest. Pardon me? I said, would you tell me what is meant by a priest of Buddhism? I would think that Buddhism wouldn't have a priest. Is there no worship of God? Ah, the priest, this is an English term, and we don't say, I think the priest is a Catholic term. So, I don't like the word priest. We say just so. So comes from sangha.

[14:21]

This is Sanskrit. That's where, you know, compound, you see, noun. I mean, you see, this is a group, you see, noun. One cannot be called a priest, so, because it means sangha. Sangha is just a community, see? Well, so, a priest is not good for a soul. I mean, the word soul, soryo. Soryo is a plural word. And, but now we use priest, just priest for convenience sake.

[15:22]

You know, we sometimes use bishop and archbishop. Those words are just Catholic, not Buddhist. We don't have any pope in Buddhism, you see? No archbishop, no bishop. So, bishop or archbishop cannot be used in Buddhism, strictly speaking. Well, I mainly, I was not objecting because it was just a matter of splitting over the words, but as I understand the definition in English of priest is one who makes sacrifices unto the God. And the Buddhist doesn't make any sacrifices. No, no, no sacrifices. Bikkhu, yes, the bikkhu, yes, is a common noun, see, for one person, the bikkhu.

[16:29]

This, yes, the bikkhu is a mendicant. Yes, bikkhu means beggar, you see? At the first stage of Buddhism, one bikkhu, many bikkhus compose the sangha, see? So, the monk of Southern Buddhism is called bikkhu, but we are Mahayana Buddhists and very far from bikkhu, so we cannot use bikkhu. Well, in Japan, the word bikkhu is not used, not used now. Sometimes bikkuni, bikkuni, that's a female word, see?

[17:34]

That is used, yes. Not bikkhu, eh? What is banzi? Is that Chinese term for... Banzi. Banzi? Yes. It's spelled B-O-N-Z. Banzu! Banzu! Oh, yes, banzu, B-O-N-Z, banzu. That is a very contemptuous word for, that comes from bozu. Bozu? What is that? Originally it means chief of a temple, it's a bo. But now it's a very contemptuous word, you see? That's banzu. But in some countries, you see, for instance in Vietnam, they may not know the origin of the word.

[18:35]

Anyway, they use the great head banzu of this monastery like that. But many Japanese know that banzu comes from bozu. Yes? Yes, is there a similarity between mantra and mandala? Mantra? Yes, but they both... Ah, the mantra, you see, it's confusing. Mantra and mandala. It's very different. Mantra is just some mystic chants, spells, coming from shingon mysticism, you see? Mantra.

[19:36]

Mantra is, you see, in Japanese, shingon, two words. Mystic symbol, symbolic words or letters. Just mantra, mantra, you see? And mandala, mandala is very different, another thing. Nam-myoho-ri is connected with mandala. No, is it? Ah, yes, yes. Is it connected with mantra? No. Oh, you mean that nam-myoho-ri is a kind of mantra, you mean? Oh, yes, yes. Some elements of mantra. Also, nam-myoho-ri has sometimes a kind of mantra, in some cases, yes. What does nam-myoho-ri mean? That's just the address, you see.

[20:37]

Nam is just honor to... We, in Japan, we understand. We devote ourselves to, you see? But originally, it comes from the Sanskrit word namas. That means honor to. In Japanese, we just follow, we devote ourselves to, you see? For instance, when namu amitabha, we devote ourselves to Buddha Amitabha, like that. Nam-myoho-ri-kyo is the name of the sutra. I was told by someone in Tsugaru, that in one devotional phrase, all devotional phrases are the same.

[21:38]

Oh, yes, yes. So, it wouldn't be necessary to chat one. Usually, yes. Oh, yes. The priest told me that it meant, in the last part, the mystic sound, all mystic sounds of the universe. That nam-myoho-ri-kyo meant all mystic sounds. I believe in the Buddha, in the universal law and all mystic sounds of the universe. All mystic sounds of the universe. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Usually, you see, the mantra is interpreted that way. That's the mantra, see? That is the mystic. But, usually, the mantra is expressed in Sanskrit, you see?

[22:48]

In Sanskrit, you see? Sanskrit is just a derivation from Sanskrit. But, myoho-ri-kyo is not Sanskrit. That's the translation of Sanskrit. So, that's the difference, you see? Nam-myoho-ri-kyo is also Sanskrit, you see? But, nam-myoho-ri-kyo, myoho-ri-kyo is not Sanskrit. That's Chinese and Japanese. Chinese and Japanese. You see? Well, if there were such a thing as universal sound, then it wouldn't matter what language it was spoken in. I say, if there were such a thing as the mystical sound of the universe, it wouldn't matter what language it was spoken in. You mean, the mantra? Mantra, nam-myoho-ri-kyo, the system that was chanted here, in a certain sense.

[23:57]

Well, I see. I am Nichiren, I say nam-myoho-ri-kyo. And, in the Nichiren sect, nam-myoho-ri-kyo is a sacred title, you see? Sacred title of the sutra. And, when we say nam-myoho-ri-kyo, you see, well, I shall put it in another way, you see? Nam-myoho-ri-kyo, that we call the o-tai-in of the sacred title. I think this is thanks to the ignorance of the original meaning of Sanskrit

[25:14]

on the part of Japanese people, you see? Namu, when we say namu, this is also a set of nama-mida-butsu, you see? When we say nama-mida-butsu or nam-myoho-ri-kyo, namu means we devote ourselves to, you see? But, at the same time, it can be written in the center of the altar, you see? When it is put in the center, it becomes an object of worship, you see? In that case, the namu means the most honorable, like that. So, this way of using namu as just the honorific adjective,

[26:22]

and in another case, verb, you see? Verb comes from the ignorance of the original meaning of Sanskrit, namas. When we say namas in Sanskrit, that means always, honor to, adoration to, glory to, you see? That's the development of Japanese Buddhism, a very peculiar way of development of Japanese Buddhism. So, when we say nama-myoho-ri-kyo, that means we devote ourselves to the sutra. When we put namu-myoho-ri-kyo in the center of the altar, it becomes an object of worship. Yes. This is very frequent. This can be said of nama-myoho-ri-kyo, too.

[27:27]

Yes. It's a peculiar way of interpreting Buddhism. The same thing is the object of worship and the way of worship. Do you have any particular impressions of American Buddhism? Oh, yes, yes. To what extent do you think it was different from... You named Buddhists from different countries and different traditions in Buddhism. To what extent do you think of American Buddhism as being distinct? American Buddhism? Well, good and bad, you know. I don't think there is such a big organization to be called American Buddhism.

[28:40]

But here in America, you have Buddhism, and there are two kinds of Buddhism. One imported from Japan, and one imported from the West, Europe. So, these two kinds are not so mixed up well. But they influence each other to some extent. And this is also found in Japanese Buddhism of today. For instance, in Shin sect, until quite recently, they never celebrated the Hanamatsuri in Japan.

[29:49]

Because the Shin sect's teaching is just an exclusive faith in Buddha Amitabha. They never worshipped Buddha Shakyamuni. But nowadays, no. Nowadays, it's different. In Japan, they celebrate Hanamatsuri. Here also, they celebrate Hanamatsuri. They've very changed. They've changed very much. And so, this is a kind of alternation of Japanese Buddhism into American Buddhism. Yes. And so, I think some points may be pointed out to characterize American Buddhism.

[31:10]

Could you tell me a place I don't know, and I don't believe it was a Buddhist service at all, but they were having a special commemoration. Could you tell me a shonan, a shinran, was he a Buddhist or a shinran? Shinran shonin? Shinran shonin? Yes, I think that's right. Shinran shonin? Shinran shonin, I think. Shinran shonin? Yes. He was a Buddhist or a Shinto? Oh, he was a Buddhist. But this meeting I went to, I don't think it was Buddhist, because I'm Kokyo. Kokyo? Yes. Kokyo is not Buddhist. No, I don't think so. No. They were telling all about shonan and shinran. Shinran shonin is Buddhist. Ah, well, what is the difference between Buddhism and Shinto?

[32:19]

Well, I don't know. I don't get it. You see a clear difference between them, but many similarities too. And, you see, in some cases, Japanese Buddhism or Japanese Buddhist functions or ceremonies are just Shinto. Yes. Because, you see, Shinto is spirit worship. Spirit worship, I say. See? Spirit worship comes from Shinto. And, well, the way...

[33:25]

Kami? Kami, yes. Kami is a Shinto word. It's a very national, very primitive concept, religious concept, you see. Everything has its soul, and it's called Kami. And, for instance, a tree. In a tree, there is a kami of a tree. See? Like that. So, natural worship comes from some natural worship or some hero worship. Like that. So, this is found everywhere in primitive Buddhism, you see. And many Japanese Buddhist festivals or ceremonies have many such elements of Shinto.

[34:40]

But, not purely Shinto, of course. And the Buddhist idea changed some ideas of Shinto into more, you know, heartful. You see, in Shintoism, just the spirit is scared, fear. But in Buddhism, it is given more heart, more warmth. I see. That's interpreted with compassion of Buddha, like that. See? So, it changes, modified. Yes. But, in the core, some Buddhist ceremonies come from Japanese Shintoism.

[35:51]

Yes. So, for instance, the same thing can be practiced, either by Shinto or Buddhism. See? Yes. Daruma. Oh, yes, Daruma. As regards Daruma, this Roshi living here is more intelligent than me. But, Daruma is two meanings, see? Daruma is just the Japaneseization of the Sanskrit term, pronunciation of Dharma. Dharma. Daruma is the Japaneseization of the Sanskrit term, pronunciation of Dharma.

[36:43]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ