I vow to face the truth of the Tathāgata's words. Good morning. This morning we're happy to have talking with us Reverend Sugita Nanda Dharma, who is for about five years now. He's been the priest and director of the Mettavihara in Richmond, which is a temple. It's a Triyana temple, as he was explaining to me. Mahayana, Theravada Mahayana, and Vajrayana, all the three lineages. And it also is a hospice, and he's been And we thought he might have something to say to us. So welcome, Burmese Peter.

[01:04]

Good morning. Good morning. I think I should start maybe to give you just a little bit about my background. At the age of 14, I became at the Trappist Monastery. And I was there for almost 10 years. And it was during the time of Pope John XXIII, he secretly invited about 18 very famous meditation teachers from the different Eastern religions to the Vatican. And what he wanted to do was to have some of the monks, especially Trappists and the Benedictines in the beginning, to volunteer to go to the East and to learn Eastern meditational techniques.

[02:07]

And I was one of the volunteers, knowing full well that some of us would probably try to withstand that tradition. But it wasn't planned. It was more like a very subtle transition into a whole new way of life for me. And at the same time, respecting and still having a lot of honor and respect from my Trappist background, as well as my Catholic background. And even more respect after I went to India and had a chance to lived in India a number of years and experienced meeting a lot of different teachers from different religions, as well as coming into contact with the orthodox, the Indian orthodox, the Coptics that they had in Kerala, which sort of put things in a very good perspective for me.

[03:15]

This wasn't the first time this happened in history. It happened around about the 15th century with the Jesuits. But that sort of petered out somewhat when they died out. Then you had the conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church who sort of said, well, we won't do this anymore. We have to go back to the way things should be, you might say. Still pulling ourselves into a very narrow point of view of Pennsylvania. this Vatican II Council that they had in the 60s was the one that really, I think, turned things around for a lot of us. That searching and looking and finding some way or some spiritual path where we could know who we are, what we are, why we are here and all these things. So, I came from that type of a background and I was fortunate enough to meet My teacher, who was the late Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh, he was from Vietnam.

[04:18]

But when I left the Trappists, my home actually, you might say, is San Francisco. I was raised mostly in San Francisco. And when I left the Trappists, and I feel I have a good relationship with you, this probably, you might not know this, but I first learned how to meditate with your teacher. Suzuki Roshi, when he was at the Sodo Zen Temple. Because my grandparents lived around the corner from the Sodo Zen Temple. So I was sort of trying to break myself in and trying to find out different things and I became familiar with a lot of these Japanese Buddhist temples in San Francisco at that time. And then at the same time I became also involved with Nichiren Shoshu at that time too. Because at that time they had a lot of the young ladies, they would go out and they want to invite you to meetings and all these different things.

[05:24]

And I said, well, why not? So I went and became a member of Nichiren Shoshu. And that was another experience for me, which was very worthwhile and very rewarding at that time. And I was found a little booklet that was on the bus that was written by Venerable Dhammananda, who was the Chiefs High Priest in Malaysia at the Bricksville Buddhist Temple. And this was the first book, little booklet, I ever seen on, let me just say, Theravada Buddhism. So I handed the address, I wrote to him, And then I told him what I was planning to do and all these things, and he wrote back to me. And we had a chance to meet when I finally went overseas. And I also took him as a teacher. And during my stay, I went to Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, all over India, Sri Lanka, Thailand.

[06:31]

I didn't get a chance to go to Burma and Laos, but I did go to Cambodia. And of course I was in Vietnam. I was in Japan and Korea. I went anywhere where there were Buddhists, and especially where there were large Buddhist communities, because I wanted to see the whole Buddhist picture. And the reason I took the three ordinations, even just taking the one Vietnamese ordination is enough, but the reason I decided to formally take the Theravada ordination was to Be on the inside. Because if you're on the inside, then you can really see what's going on. Especially the monastic situation. And so this was one of the reasons for doing that. And creating a relationship. And so it gave me a real good opportunity for... I didn't know Vietnam was going to fall and I would end up having to come back to America to work with the Indochinese refugees and all these things like that.

[07:36]

But it gave me... since because my teacher always spoke of unity and harmony and trying to get along together and to look on at Buddhism as vast schools are different vows of medicine according to our needs and so I began to see that slowly and he always emphasized that we should try to develop our compassion and So with us, and I was his first monk that he ordained in this country, and through his teachings, we decided to take to follow the vows of the Bodhisattva, and this was done in the very traditional way, because Vietnam is unique. At the same time, you had Buddhism and the Zen and Pure Land coming from China, and then on one hand, and on the other hand, you had Theravada Buddhism, or the influence of the Mahayana as well, from India, coming into Vietnam at the same time.

[08:46]

So as it developed, it became a very unique form. And my teacher, they decided they were having a lot of conflict with Catholics. And he was sent to Japan to finish his higher degrees, and he returned to Vietnam, and he set up Ban Han University. Right in the period of the middle of the war, Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh, him, Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh, I can give you about five or six names, and they were all together at the same time. They set up Van Hanh University right in the middle of the war, and within one year, they ended up with about 8,000 students, which was quite unique. In the middle of a war, you can have these kids going. They created what you call the Buddhist Youth Sutter, almost like Boy Scouts, which is a very strong force in Vietnamese Buddhism, especially during that time and even now.

[09:47]

And it was through this experience where he was trying to get us to develop the compassion. So after, in 85, I returned to the States, because I was still going back and forth here and there working with the Indochinese refugees. I took sick and had to have a surgery. I was running all over the place and sick and didn't even know it. And this is my first experience for myself is when someone tells you, you know, hey, if you don't have this surgery, I said, well, let's go ahead and give me the surgery. But all the things that I had learned from the East, all the influence, all the teachings, and what practice I tried to do the best that I could, it all came into play at that time. And that's when I made my really firm commitment as I know what I'm doing is the correct path, at least for me to follow.

[10:49]

And I reaffirmed everything from that point. Then in 87, moved up to the Bay Area, and we found a little place in Richmond. And we just had the little temple, and I was still doing my work with Indochinese refugees and things like that. And I'm sort of the type of a person, like today I'm here at the Zen Center, right? Okay, then tomorrow I'll be at the Tibetan temple and Chinese temple, and I'll go to the Vietnamese temple, I'm at the Cambodian temple. I started to bounce in and out all around the different areas. And I always felt that it was something that we should do as, and I'm speaking from the perspective of the Buddhist monk from say the Theravada tradition, where there's a number of rules and regulations that we have to follow that is very strict.

[11:54]

A lot of people feel, well, the monk can't live here in America because of this, because of that, because of this. And so I decided to put it to the test to see what we could do and what we couldn't do. What is the right livelihood for us? Some people don't. Since I started doing this hospice work and working with people with HIV, well, that's not really the proper job for the monk and things like that. And then I said, if you go back to the precepts, you know, and the Buddha, why did he make these rules and regulations, you know? And why would he make a rule for right livelihood, you know? And then tell me that I'm not supposed to sell arrows, swords, and weapons. So evidently, we must have had some people during that period of time that had very negative types of livelihood. And then I read where the Buddha took care of the sick monk in the temple and things like that. And that reconfirmed what we could do. And so I tried to continue to do that indirectly, hoping that others would come out and try to do the same thing.

[13:05]

Find out what is your medium? What do you want to do to see how your practice is working and how it's developing? And so when I started working with the HIV people, It was a spontaneous thing. It wasn't planned. I was already doing some work with homelessness and things like that. But this was something that was never planned. It just happened that I knew a person where there were two people in where I'm living that had full-blown AIDS. And one of them was terminal and homeless. And when they found out at the mission what was wrong with him, they just actually put him out in the street. And so I brought him in. That's how we developed our work. Because I thought that was one of the most inhuman things to do. And I wasn't thinking it was an inhuman thing to do. Because when we look at what we're dealing with, we're dealing with the core of our human nature, really, our sexuality.

[14:10]

It's the core of our human nature. It's the core of bringing new life into the world and all of this and that. So it's extremely touchy issue along those lines. And we also develop greed, hatred, anger, envy, jealousy, and all these different things like that too. All this come into play because when you tell a very young person, hey, you have this terminal illness and you're going to die, then you can just imagine how this would affect a person. So I'm immortal, you know, nothing ever happens to me. I'm 21, 22 years old, you know, I can jump over buildings and all these kind of things. But now when you reach the age of 50, you don't even want to jump off the porch. This is how we imagine, and you sort of put yourself in the place of that particular person. And so this is how we slowly developed. And then gradually I started seeing a lot of inadequate things that was happening, for example.

[15:11]

We worked with some of the most difficult people you would ever want to work with in your life, because they had come from a background of substance abuse and homelessness. And so you have to allow yourself, sometimes you can see yourself being manipulated in such a way that once you catch on, because they're gonna let you catch on, that I'm trying to make a fool out of you, you know, pull your coat strings or something, and you feel kind of foolish about it. Then you get angry, and you go through a lot of changes yourself. And this is one of the problems why a lot of service providers find it most difficult to deal with people that come from a background of substance abuse. And then when you couple substance abuse with maybe a lot of mental difficulties and other social problems all in one, multiple problems, then you don't know really what to do because our system is not set up to deal with problems like that.

[16:11]

If you're going to deal with a mental problem, then you deal with a particular diagnosis, either schizophrenia or something like that. Or if you're going to deal with a substance such as heroin or some type of substance like that, you know, right away you put someone in a pigeon hole. But with this HIV thing, you can't put anyone anywhere. Because you're dealing with the totality of the whole human issue of the person, the whole person. Because everything comes up. And when you find people that are not used to trying to go into themselves or understand themselves, that creates another problem as well. Because every little thing that happens to you, like a little pimp will arise. You know, uh-oh, leprosy. This is the first thought that comes in a person's mind, because they're going through so many changes. But with people who are learning meditation, you begin to learn about your body functions, the mind, body, speech, and all these different components of ours, so we are able to handle things a little bit differently.

[17:19]

I was talking to a guy just the other day, and He's gone through a number of changes in dealing with his illness. He's quite young. And I said to him, I said, you know, I said, you know, put your hand on that microscope. And he said, no. I said, well, next time you go see a doctor, see if you can put your hand on the microscope and take a look at it. And he did, and he came back and he was horrified. He said he saw these millions of things just crawling all over his hands. I said, well now, picture all of this crawling all over your whole body. I said, that's why we develop soap. That's why we develop all these things to keep ourselves clean, because when the bacteria builds up on us, you know, and if you don't take a bath for a long time, And then you do that, it's just millions of things, it's horrible looking. And so I said, imagine, I say, now you wash your hand and then do it again. Next time I try it and see if he saw less.

[18:22]

So slowly he's beginning to understand. And then another problem for me is, I'm the strange one in Richmond, because I'm Buddhist, I'm black, I'm Catholic. So they don't know. Everyone is trying to find some type of pigeon hole to put me in. They can't seem to find it. And so it's a place where they're not familiar. We had our first interreligious Buddhist Christian program for Kristallnacht in 1988. And they never heard Buddhists chanting. You know, who is this person running around in strange robes, you know? And I even had one minister tell me an inter-religious meeting, meaning he says, you know, you're not black enough. And I had to ask him, I said, well, what do you mean by black enough? I said, how black do I have to be? I said, son, here I am, 50 years old, I remember going through all the troubles and things that we had as a people in the country.

[19:32]

But yet, at the same time, I remember a very wise grandmother and grandparent, my great-great-great aunt, who died in 1954 at 106 years old, who came out of slavery. This was our base for developing me for what I'm to do today. I said, so, what do we do? It's not the color. We catch ourselves onto external colors, you know, the external thing. All this is a phase. It's the internal things that we have to start looking at and trying to develop. So now me and this minister is pretty good friends. I threw a couple of Buddhist books on him. We started him out with things like Zen and also Pure Land, so he had some base to relate to, especially the Pure Land, because it's very devotional. Buddha, so we have something really to look at there. And then I gave him a couple of books on Carolina.

[20:35]

Now I'm getting ready to give him a book on Vajrayana. I know that's going to really shake him up because we have all the deities and the demons and then you have all the different sexual postures and all these different things like that. So I'm getting ready to give him a book, Fishes of Tarkas, the explanations that I picked up in New York. And trying to get him to understand that that's Many ways for many of us to follow, many paths to follow. But we have to be willing to follow that path ourselves. And getting back to the hospice work and the things that we're doing there. The people that we work with, they are not Buddhists. And like I said, they're not used to going into themselves. And they're used to a very intense type of negative lifestyle. And so what I usually try to do is use expedient means. And that's one of the interesting things about Buddhism. You know, you can take some Buddhist things and turn it into this very scientific, psychological thing, you know, and it's like, oh, you know.

[21:47]

I can still say Zen training, you know, practice of walking and how you sit or whatever, something like that, and behavior modifications, and little things like that. You can get around of saying and trying to help the person and act as a good friend to the person. And so this is what we try to do. And we have large numbers of people that are involved with dealing with this particular problem and the homeless problem. And it's so much that we as Buddhists, no matter what the tradition, that we could find a little niche of something to do. Like, for example, at Great Stokes Center in New York, because they created this fabulous bakery and done a program for homelessness, for example. And each of us can play our parts and see our own practice. How well are we really doing in our own particular practice?

[22:52]

Because when we get involved in these things, you know, we come face to face with ourselves as well. Because human nature is human nature. So, when this person manipulates me, you know, I have to watch what is going on at this time and how it's affecting me, right? You know, I watch maybe the anger in his eyes. Hmm, this guy is trying to pull fast from here, huh? So what can I do about that, you know? And so you check and you're looking into yourself. It's like a practice check, really. And my light teacher, if you don't know, used to do that to us all the time. And there were people who would come to the center there. And then we, sometimes we would break off into groups or like little cliques, you know. And then there was one guy, and he always wanted to sit like the perfect rock. And he was sent two hours, three hours.

[23:56]

And we'd have to do our work around the temple. And we'd have to mow the lawn. And we'd come past and sit down with the lawn mower, and this guy just blows up. And this is what my teacher used to call the practice check. Because if we were really into what we were doing, then why should we blow up? Why don't you make it all right? Get away from around here. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We would just look and then he would say, my teacher would say, don't get angry, just try to smile or something like that. He'd say, he'll find his place, he'll find his way. And it's all these little things like that he used to do to us to help us develop this compassion for others and trying to live together and trying to understand each other and give each other the space and the respect. So, I see a lot of influence in that now. influence from that and what we're trying to do as far as not trying to save anyone.

[24:58]

We can't save anyone. We can help, but we can't save. And so we keep that even out of our thing. We had some people come from one of the local churches, you know, the type of like spiritualist type churches came to visit me. to meet one guy who was a member of that church. Right away, they was talking about they wanted to save this fellow and all these things. He was a very wise young man. He said, thank you for wanting to try to save me. He said, well, under these circumstances, I'm going to have to try to save myself. And he really was the one that was the nucleus. When he decided to let go and leave us, the whole house was just, like it was just invaded, just like peace all over the whole house the morning that he died.

[26:01]

Because he came completely to terms with himself and understanding forgiveness and all these different things he'd done within himself. And so he was able to totally let go. So it was quite, an experience to be there at that time when this happened. And I think that's what really sealed it for us. We can't save or help everyone, but we can plant that little seed for the person. Even if it's no more than just a smile, we can plant that little seed. And they have the story in early Buddhist teaching, he said one of the reasons why the robes have all the different fields, you know, you open it up, it looks exactly like a rice field. So what we do is, the monks would go out and plant these little seeds, the positive seeds. And that was the gift the monk offered to the people at that time, was to plant these seeds.

[27:06]

the positive seeds, and have the wish that maybe this person is really going through a lot of changes right now, but then we offer the wish that maybe in the future things get better for them and all this and that. Mentally, we try to project it, so it's like planting different seeds and things. So this is how we really involve ourselves and what we try to do. It's not easy, like I said, the work that we're doing. It's not a mission. A lot of people should tell me this, especially when it comes from the Christian background. Right away, I have this ministry. And so I try to make it clear that it's not a ministry. It's just trying to be the good friend and to do what is humanly correct, really. And then to put myself in that person's place. Now what would I do if I was homeless and sick and all these things like that?

[28:09]

Now how would I feel, for example? So I change places with the person. I put myself in that person's place. So I come from that type of perspective in doing what I try to do. It's just trying to be like the good friend to that individual that I'm with at that particular time. And we have about five people at our house right now. And then there's two that's staying with me at the other house. And I have to constantly be mindful. And I just try to set little examples. Like sometimes the people at the house are not very tidy. And they can be disastrous in the kitchen. And so I just go in and have fun. I'd just be cleaning and doing a different little thing, trying to set a little example like that, you know. And sometimes it, slowly it rubs off, but it requires a lot of patience to, for me to develop patience, you know, develop loving-kindness to that individual, you know.

[29:16]

Because then you say, my goodness, what in the world did you do in this kitchen, and all you had to do was, and you just wanted to cook an egg? You know, and then I, I said, let me show them. Sometime I'll cook for them. And then by the time I finish, I don't have anything to watch except maybe the pots that we still have food in, you know, and the dishes that they are going to use to eat. And everything else is spick and span. And they say, oh, how you learn to do that? So I said, that's my monastic training. That's Zen training. That's Buddhist training. That's Christian training. That's my grandmother's training. So you give them these things to think about. And so really, this is because that's the sort of background I came from. And unfortunately, some people don't have that opportunity or have that chance. And so this is what we try to do at our place in Richmond.

[30:18]

Am I on? Do you have more time? Do I do it? Or you can take questions. Yeah, I think that might be good. We're supposed to take questions. Oh, OK. That'd be good. Because usually, sometimes I usually talk and then somebody says they want to ask a question or something like that. So maybe let me take some questions from you. Do you get any funds from any particular group? Right now, we get a small amount of funding from the state, which helps somewhat. And we're looking at other areas. And right now, we're thinking about actually starting up some type of business. We had started selling dolls over Christmas, and that seemed to be working very well. We're going to try to have what you call the ethnic doll shop. We're going to have dolls from all the racial dolls of all the different people in the world. Black doll, white doll, Asian dolls, any kind of doll.

[31:22]

And that's working out real well. And then we have arts and crafts and things like that that we're going to try to develop. And try to get things from the villagers, say, like in Sri Lanka, Thailand, and Laos, and places like that, which will help them. And at the same time, it'll help us. So this is something that we're looking at and trying to develop right now. You mentioned Kristallnacht. That's an unusual time to commemorate. Yes, it is. I wondered how you came to do that. Well, we have the inter-religious council in Richmond called GRIP. And the former minister at the Easterhill Methodist Church He's really open. The Methodists are quite open. Especially when it came, a lot of them went to Sri Lanka. And a lot of Buddhist monks studied in a lot of the Methodist universities to get their higher degrees.

[32:25]

And so we came together, we had Buddhist, Catholic, Jewish, to celebrate that particular event. And it worked out. It was really nice. And it was a really good experience for the people in the community. Because it was the first time that ever happened in Richmond like that. And it was a very rewarding experience. I was real curious when you were talking about your Trappist background and the secret thing that pulled Paul? Because I had read, you know, quite a bit about Thomas Merton who went through a lot of pain in his life because I felt he, you know, he was attracted to the Asian practices and yet he felt bound somehow and he kept trying to get the authorities to let him study it more. Did you meet him and was he ever involved in that? No, Thomas Merton was at Gethsemane and I was at Spencer. And then later on, I went to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

[33:26]

Thomas Merton was my influence in becoming a Trappist. I read his The Waters of Silo, it was the book that influenced me. In the Trappist life, there's a very close relationship to the Eastern form when he goes into monasticism. Monks are monks no matter where they come from, what type of tradition they follow. There's a lot of very subtle similarities. And he finally got the permission, because he was going through, you know, through changes. and trying to find out what he should do, you know, coming from the background he came from and then becoming a Trappist priest for so many years and living a life, and that's when it was really hard in those days. And he had the space to develop and move, and then finally he got permission to do what he wanted to do.

[34:32]

But as far as studying the Eastern religions, All those books are in every large Trappist monastery, library. You think he was responsible for some of those books getting there? Oh no, no, because the teachings of the Buddha was translated in Latin many centuries ago. Centuries ago. It was translated in Latin and also in Greek. It was the Greeks who actually created the Buddha image. It wasn't us, the Buddhists, or the Buddhists at that time, I should say. It was the Greeks that created the Buddhist image. No one would dare create an image of the Buddha at that time. That's why you usually have the footprint of the Dharma Chakra at that time. So it goes way back. So even in Christianity, there is influence. And if you look at some of the large books of the list of saints, you know, Jehoshaphat is the corruption of the Bodhisattva. You know, the Buddha is a saint in the Catholic Church, and they celebrate it every year.

[35:35]

You know, it's just a corruption of his name, and then how the stories got mixed up by the people traveling during the days of the caravans, you know, going from here to there. People going all around the world, learning, experiencing, and, you know, during that time there. So, that was one of the... It's something that's been there, but we, ourselves, sometimes we can get caught up so tight in our own ways and traditions that sometimes we can't see the forest or the trees. It's that same type of a situation. But the Jesuits were the first ones who really broke the ice with these types of things. But this is the second or third one. But this was the one that was most successful. This particular council. This is something that is going to last. We can't change this one. This is something that we're going to last, that will last and it'll be quite amazing, the outcome of what's going to happen.

[36:37]

Because if you study Buddhism, you'll find that Buddhism is almost like Hinduism, it's like a sponge really, I mean it absorbs everything. And then at the same time, now that the other religions are even absorbing a lot of things from Buddhism, you know, into meditation, there's Christian meditation groups and all types of things, so we're getting to it. look at things differently. So it's going to be interesting the next hundred years or so, what will happen as far as all these religions is concerned, since it's so new here and it doesn't have a tradition. So what's going to happen for us 50 years from now, 100 years from now? It's going to be quite an interesting thing. Was it the point at which you became a Trappist monk?

[37:39]

Was that the point at which you were really split and then did everything else sort of follow step by step? I'll tell you what happened when I became the Trappist monk. I was already in the, I was going to the St. Martin's School in Lacey, Washington, which is run by the Benedictines. I was already in the seminary. And I just happened to pick up this book by Thomas Merton in the library. And when I read that book, I mean, it was just like, I mean, it was, it's really hard to explain what happened at that moment. I knew I wanted to be this Travis. And so we had a recreation period that one evening. And so we were sitting around and we was talking with the, father director who was responsible for us, and he was saying, what do you guys want to do? You know, you want to become a Dawson? Why don't you become a Benedictine? You know, you sort of had a choice there.

[38:39]

Because if you're in the seminary and you're going to a Catholic school for boys, you get really good treatment, special treatment. And so everybody was saying what they were saying. And so finally he looked over and he said, Anthony, what do you want to do? And I said, I'm going to become a Trappist. And he fell out. I mean, he just laughed and laughed and laughed, and I was furious! Because, I mean, I've never been that type of, I'm not no type of saintly type person. I know how to, you know, I would steal the altar wine after the priesthood, and then gobble it down, you know, we used to do that as kids. And he laughed and laughed and laughed, and he said, yeah, you'll never make it. He said, you won't last a month. And I said, really? And so what happened was, I went back to my room and I packed my bags and I left and I went to the Trappist Monastery to stay 10 years. That's how I ended up at the Trappist.

[39:42]

I didn't have it. They didn't know me from Adam when I went in there. All they knew was this kid, 14 going on 15, that wants to become a Trappist and come out of the middle of nowhere and stay in a guest house. And so the novice master, he says, If you want to become, you have to have your parents' permission. So I told them where my parents was, and we sent a letter to my parents, and we had to wait for that. In the meantime, they decided to test me. And every time I go to visit this monastery, I can look at this huge forest of over 2,300 trees that I planted. You know, they was testing me, you know. And one day he came, he said, oh, you must really been praying, because Father Abbott decided that he was going to take you. And I went into the tractors. And when I made my simple vows, I made sure that Father Benedict would. I made sure. But that's what really happened out of that.

[40:43]

And sometimes people ask me how I make the transition from Catholic to Buddhist. I can't tell you because I don't see it as a transition, a dropping something and picking something else up. Yeah, I don't see that either, you see. So sometimes it's really hard for me to explain that. And that probably comes from my, really my upbringing. Even though I come from a very strict Catholic background, my grandparents, they were very open. They always taught us to respect other religions very strongly. Could you say something about the daily practice that there is at Meta Vihara? Oh, okay. In the mornings we have, I get up, I have what you call like a split sleep. So I'm usually up around three in the morning. It's just a natural habit because we used to get up at two in the Trappist. So over the years it became almost like second nature for me. So I get up very early in the morning and I do my meditation and do some chanting.

[41:51]

But my main practice that I'm very comfortable with is doing the practice of Tibetan Buddhism. I'm a very ritual-type person. And I found that out over the years, too. And so I feel very comfortable with that. And then after that, I do a little work, and then I lay down and rest a little bit. And then sometimes people might want to come at, say, around about 6, and then we have just a regular straight And in the evening we have the same thing. It's just regular sitting. And we sort of structure it more closely related to along the Zen lines for people, so that they have some type of a structure. And this is mainly everyday the practice that we have, that I usually do. We have, I have two of my monk friends that stand with me also at the other place that we have.

[42:59]

And so some things as far as with them we do along the That's more like what my day is. To save them? Saving someone and then awakening them.

[44:02]

To me, if you, like I was saying, you know about planting that seed, you're giving them the space where they can see something new. It's almost like a mini enlightenment. you know, like if we had a very difficult problem that we had to solve, mathematical or something, and I mean we just work at it, work at it, work at it. Then all of a sudden you get a flash, you know, and a lot of times you have flashes like what they call, like Satori, you know. When we awaken that person, we planted some type of seed and this person comes through some realization. Indirectly, we are helping them more than really saving them, but at the same time it's almost a play on words because you may have been that instrument to plant the seed, but the awakening or the enlightenment of the planting of that seed could come from something else.

[45:10]

So I always like to use the term that to help. And then I also wonder, I say now is this a play on words in trying to put the chants into English? We vow to save them, and does this come from our background, you know, Judeo-Christian background of wanting to save, you know. And so it's very hard for me to look at it like that. So what I look at mostly is that I'm trying to help them. You know, like sentient beings are innumerable. I vow to help them all. Well, that might be a good idea to make a new chant, huh? That might be a good one. Or to save them all. It's really... I think what you're trying to say is that you're letting it manifest inside of the person within yourself, in other words. Exactly, yeah. That would be a good way to put it. He's got, you know, he's doing it as opposed to you doing it for him. Right.

[46:14]

And then that way, I think it gives that person the strength and the energy to take that other step You know? You know, if you take one step, and two, and three, and then finally you reach your goal. And I can look at it more like that. Well, the thing I always was struck with was, who's being saved? I mean, maybe you're saving someone. Gee, that's a good quorum. Who is being saved? That's a real good quorum. In fact, I think I'm going to use that one and find that out for myself, too. Yeah, who is being saved, really? Is it me, him, or them? You know, who is really being saved? What is being saved? With the lawnmower, I mean, there was an enlightenment, it seems to me, on both parts. Oh, we're going back to the lawnmower thing? I was just struck by the fact that there was a tiny little, whatever you want to call it, seed or whatever, planted in the people who were

[47:16]

the man who was annoyed, the man who was annoyed, and also see planted in you to deal with. Exactly, exactly. So it seemed to me kind of both. Yeah, exactly. And also I can tell you a quick little story about when I was in the trappings. There was a monk that used to sit next to me in the refectory and he used to grind his teeth. And he used to drive me crazy. And so finally I made the mistake with one of the interviews that I had with the abbot. And I told him I couldn't stand that monk. For the next eight years, I had to do everything with that monk. In those days, we had dormitory style, or we had cubicles. They booed me next to him. They put me out in the field with him. I still had to sit next to him in the refectory.

[48:18]

And then in those days we had to do like the penance, you know, and you had to admit in chapters of fault, you know. I said, oh no, I've done this thing because this, and this monk is just getting on my nerves. And I would have to kneel in the middle of the refectory, you know, while everyone else eat. Then you would eat after as a little punishment, you know, penance and things like that. My teacher, when I got involved in Buddhism, was the same way. And that, I think, what it was that sort of done that. A type of training like that. And now I'm really thankful for it because I see myself in a lot of situations like that. Especially in this day and age. So it's kind of rewarding. In a similar light, when you're interacting with people, you notice something they're doing, and you go into yourself.

[49:24]

Do you find it's true that you're already doing that to yourself, and attracting that energy? Mm-hmm. What I try to do is just try to sit little simple examples for the people that I work with, just little things. But, and to reinforce it for them when they do it, say for example, little actions or little things, whether it's something that they just want to converse with us, or if it's some type of a little action of some sort. And then try to reinforce it in such a way as not to create Sometimes we have to create the big head for a person in order to smash it. But they smash it themselves, you know. Like a lot of time you read these in the session, you want to smash, you know. But the awakening sticks, say for example. And we create this little thing to give a certain amount of confidence for this person.

[50:28]

Hey, I have done this. I can do this. And so the person builds themselves up. and get a certain amount of confidence so that they can deal with something that is tremendously, deeply ingrained in their very genetics, you might say. I mean, their whole being is involved around this particular issue of HIV. So, it... Awaken that up. And we sort of try to share those moments. And what I try to do is The same thing is internally share with them the different moments and then wish that I could help them in some kind of way to build them up in that particular sense to sort of share the energy. Because a lot of times people that have gone through substance abuse and things like that, the energy, the whole energy around that is negative.

[51:29]

So sometimes you can feel really wiped out. So if you're not able to pull back moments after moments during our today, you will burn out. And a lot of people, they say to me, how do you do it? I would never do it. It would be too difficult to do it because of that energy. You're dealing with a lot of negative energy at times, so you have to be able to pull back a little bit. And I think through my Buddhist training and practice, that's been the biggest help for me, is that from moment, different moments throughout our day, we should pull back. And even in your practice, and whatever you're doing here or wherever you're at, you should always find that moment to pull back, even when you're at work. And if your work is really stressful, you can find little spots during the day to pull back. You know, and I think this is what we find very successful as far as we come to a lot of the workers in Japan, for example, you know, using that Zen training background, the unity, the harmony, we are doing this together and all these things, which is extremely stressful.

[52:54]

I was in Japan last Christmas and is extremely stressful work for some people and so what they have to do is find those little niches you know, find your own personal little niche where you can pull it back during the day even if it's no more than just for 30 seconds and you'd be surprised the energy you can compile and build up to store to help you throughout the rest of the day because we never know what we're going to come into contact with so we have to always prepare ourselves some kind of way and that's been the thing At least that's what I try to do. I don't know if it's intentionally or what, but it's something that I try to do, because otherwise I would just burn totally out. Do you have one more question? Oh, yes. I can take one more question. Who are the other people that are working in your group?

[53:56]

Okay, I have one... That's one of the big problems we have. It's very difficult to find people to help with the type of people that we are working with. You know, we had some people come, and they never come back again. They never come back again, because it's extremely difficult. But there's one, two people who are actually helping me right now. A lot of times, a lot of the work still falls on me. There's a lot of things I still don't know about because I never planned to get so involved in the bureaucracy and all these things. This is something that I never planned to do. So it's a lot of learning for me and a lot of work as well. But there's a couple of people that are coming to help and slowly there's some other people who've been making contact. So that's something that we're always looking for because it's extremely hard to find people to who might be willing to deal with this particular type of issues, especially in our area there, it's extremely hard.

[55:02]

So, I'd like to thank you for inviting me to speak with you today and share everything with you on what we're doing. I hope you can find your space and your happiness and whatever it is that you're I'm sure if you take everything in some type of a co-op, you'll find that space. And so there's no need to rush and feel frustrated or anything like that, because we're going to feel that anyway. And you attain that peace and happiness that each of you is trying to attain and find. So I wish you all well, may you be well, peaceful, and happy.

[55:50]

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