is how do you practice as a lay person in the world? This question keeps coming up over and over again, and rightly so. There's no definitive answer, but it's something that we are always seeking. But at the same time, there are some guidelines And there are some examples. So one of the great examples is the example of Vimalakirti. Vimalakirti, as most of you know, was a layperson in the time of Buddha, according to the tradition. And Vimalakirti, of course there is the very famous Vimalakirti Sutra, the sutra which features a layperson.

[01:06]

And it's not the only sutra that features a layperson. There's also the sutra of Queen Srimala. And there are possibly others which I'm not able to recall. But So I want to present some of the facets, some of the examples that are given in the sutra of the life of Vimalakirti as exemplary of the Mahayana tradition of how a layperson lives in the world and in the world of practice, or lives in the world of practice within the world.

[02:09]

These examples, of course, are very idealistic, but at the same time very practical and workable. So, you have to remember that we always have to balance the idealistic with the actual. If we are only focused on the idealistic, then it always looks like we're failing, because we can never keep up with the ideal. The same goes for the precepts. People say, well, I really hesitate to take the precepts because I know I can't follow them completely. But precepts are always more than we can follow. Precepts always present the ideal, but our life is based on the actual. So we're half Buddha and half sentient being, so to speak.

[03:24]

Suzuki Roshi points out, how can I, this lowly sentient being, be Buddha? Well, Buddha seems to be the ideal, and my life is the actual. But the actual embodies the ideal, and the ideal embodies the actual. So, when we look at the ideal, we have to realize the actual and realize that and not be discouraged by our life. So the actual gives us a way to, gives us a path which the actual can never quite fully embody, but that's good. the path should always be out of reach completely, so that we're always working for it, working toward it, and that keeps us vital and alive, keeps our practice vital and alive, always knowing that we're falling short, but at the same time always working with it, within it.

[04:51]

So the ideal keeps us humble, and our life keeps us engaged. So anyway, here is some of the description of the layperson as exemplified by Pimala Kirti. So, deliberating before action following the conduct of Buddha, great in mind as the ocean." So when I think about that, following Buddha, great in mind as the ocean, it simply means to always live your life immersed in big mind. If we say, following the conduct of Buddha, well,

[05:54]

What is the conduct of Buddha? You know, when people ask about how to practice as a layperson in the world, it's hard to give directions. You should do this or you should do that. But rather to look at the attitude of how to practice. if you stay with the right attitude then you meet conditions and no one can tell you what to do. So this is living precepts. Living precepts is knowing what the guidelines are and meeting conditions. And if you know what the guidelines are when you meet conditions you will be able to make a decision about which way to go on every occasion.

[06:57]

That's living precepts. It's not like precepts are set. It's not like you pull them out, open the drawer and pull them out. We have to find our way on each moment. This is Bodhisattva precepts. If you practice the Vinaya, 250 or 300 precepts, a precept for everything you do, that's one way. That's more like Hinayana precepts. Bodhisattva precepts are being able to find your way on each moment without a prescription. It's creative life. creative precepts, but it means doing the right thing. But how do you do the right thing? In order to make the right move, your life has to be based on big mind, so that everything you do comes out of big mind.

[08:02]

And this is the first precept, be Buddha. Well, I can't be Buddha, I'm just me. But if you base your life on big mind, then you are Buddha. as yourself. So Zazen is the practice of being Buddha. Because you let go of self, even though someone is there doing something. And in your daily life, same thing. This is how daily life is continued from Zazen. If our daily life is not continued from zazen, with that attitude, then our practice is not complete. So, then it says, residing in Vaishali, Vaishali was the place where Vimalakirti lived, in his little ten by ten, I think, hut.

[09:10]

Nine by nine, actually. Tatami mats are three feet by three feet. Of course, they're Japanese, right? They're not Indian. But it's called Vimalakirti's hut when you arrange the tatamis. Residing in Vaishali only for the sake of the necessary means for saving creatures, abundantly rich, ever careful of the poor, pure in self-discipline, obedient to all precepts." So this is very interesting. His life is simply for the benefit of all beings. As a layperson, his reason for living is to help all beings. This is the Bodhisattva ideal. You don't live your life just for your own pleasure. but to help other beings, to add to the welfare of all beings becomes the reason for your life.

[10:20]

This is how we establish Bodhisattva precepts, and this is the Bodhisattva's vow, whether you're a priest or a layperson. So, you know, Vimalakirti is ill, he's in his hut, and all the Buddha's disciples come and ask him questions, and of course he puts them all in their place. But they ask him, well, why is he sick? And he says, well, I'm feeling the sickness of humanity, and so I too am sick. And then they invite him, and then he invites all the disciples and the world, actually, into his hut, into his nine-by-nine hut. And the question is, well, how will they all fit? Well, they'll fit. They'll fit into my big mind. So, residing in Vaishali only for the sake of the necessary means for saving creatures, abundantly rich, meaning this is a wealthy layperson, has no problem with funds, maybe one of the richest, wealthiest people in India at the time, but at the same time ever careful of the poor.

[11:54]

In other words, he uses his wealth to help people, he distributes his wealth among the so-called poor. And pure in self-discipline, so he keeps all the rules of discipline and obedient to all the precepts. So although he has wealth, his life is based on the precepts. So we sometimes say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a wealthy person to get into heaven. But, in Buddhism, we have wealthy laypeople who, the wealth is not a problem. Wealth should not be a problem, although the more you have, the more you want, so wealth leads to greed.

[12:59]

It's pretty hard to control it, but to control wealth so that you use it for the benefit of people, that sometimes happens. So, to be able to use that wealth for the benefit of beings is very important. Layman Pang dumped all his wealth into the lake. That's another way. There are various ways, you know. One way is to dump all your wealth into the lake. The other is to use it to help people. That's very noble. And that's how the wealth should be distributed. So, then, removing all anger by the practice of patience.

[14:04]

So, when anger comes up, to deal with anger through patience. Long patience. not just anger, but all emotions, all emotions that control you. So, patience is the controlling factor for anger and for greed and for all of our strong feelings and emotions that come up, which can easily dominate us. And removing all sloth by the practice of diligence. laziness, or the inability to keep moving. I'd like to practice, but every time the alarm goes off, I turn it off and turn over and go to sleep. I would like to get to this endo, but, you know... Diligence is very important.

[15:14]

Otherwise, nothing happens. Nothing happens without diligence. So these are qualities to practice patience and diligence. Removing all distraction of mind by intent meditation. So keeping focused through meditation. Being focused on reality. and removing all ignorance by the fullness of wisdom. Wisdom in this case means the activity of non-duality by observing the wholeness of life as well as the parts. So when you're in a situation at work or relating to somebody or in a group, we don't get carried away by some focus, by some narrow focus, but we see the whole picture.

[16:44]

We take into account the whole picture whenever we make an action. That's wisdom. though but a simple layperson, yet observing the pure monastic discipline." Well, given our life, you know, we do have a kind of quasi-monastic discipline in our practice. When we, you know, come to the zendo, at that moment we become monks, in a way. We give up everything and just do the monastic discipline. When we have sasheen, we just do the monastic discipline. And then we return to being a layperson. So we kind of go back and forth. And the monastic discipline should be the basis of our life. How to translate that into a structure for our life.

[17:48]

It's possible, you know, when you have a meal to sit to do some kind of chant. There are various short chants that you can do. You can offer incense in the morning when you wake up and bow to Buddha. You can structure your life in a way that gives you a way to always be mindful of how you're practicing and how you're practicing throughout the day. You know, we pay homage to the three treasures and are thankful for this food, the work of many people and the suffering and offering of various forms of life.

[18:52]

That's a very short, concise little thing that you can say when you have a meal, or just bow. And if you read the Tenzo Kyokun of Doguen, he tells us how to keep order in our kitchen. or in our house and in our life. It all transfers from one aspect to another of our life. If we know how to keep order in the small places, then we can keep order in the bigger places. And this helps us to have the discipline of practice. And then we can bring that into our work life. I'm often disappointed by people who practice at Tassajara for three or four years, then they come back and they don't know what to do.

[19:58]

Well, they should be carrying that practice, that discipline, into their daily life. And it's a wonderful challenge and very interesting way to live your life in the world. It doesn't mean that you do Zazen all day long, but it means you do Zazen as activity. How do you do zazen as activity? How do you remain concentrated? How do you keep your mind on your breath in all your activity? How do you respond to each thing with full attention? This is how we practice in our daily life, paying attention to each thing and not avoiding confronting and responding to what's in front of us with full attention and without preconceptions.

[21:01]

How to practice without preconceptions, meeting each situation as a new situation without, oh, I know about that. How to meet each situation with not knowing mind. There's a saying in Zen, the highest knowledge is not knowing. It doesn't mean you don't know anything. It simply means that your mind is open without preconceptions so that you can see something completely new and for what it really is. This is probably the most important aspect of practice. Not knowing mind. This is Bodhidharma's response.

[22:05]

I don't know. Doesn't mean he doesn't know. Then, Though living at home, yet never desirous of anything." Well, that's a little severe. We always desire something, right? But the meaning here is more like living at home without being caught by our desires, without being turned around by desire, without being turned around by advertising, you know, knowing what's right for you and not getting caught by what's right for somebody else, being influenced by... It's so difficult, you know, to not be influenced by what's around you. People say,

[23:10]

Well, you know, I feel good when I'm practicing at the Zen Dojo and I'm controlling my desires and so forth, but then when I get with my friends, you know, I just lose it, you know, and get, right? Start eating, drinking, smoking, blah, blah, blah. How do you maintain your discipline? And influence the people around you, rather than just succumbing to that influence. I think that's really important. I know people, you know, who've really had a hard time. Well, you know, I really feel good at the Zen Do, but when I go see my friends, they're all smoking dope, you know, and so I have to smoke dope too, because then, otherwise I feel out of it. That's very common.

[24:12]

But how do you influence your friends? You know, instead of them influencing you, how do you influence them? No thanks. I still love you, but, you know, that's not my thing. And then I think, yeah, well, maybe I don't have to do this either. You know, the bully on the corner who says, look at those guys, you know, let's get them. And everybody says, yeah, man, because this guy's really tough. And they're afraid, and so they go along with it. But how about the person who says, well, I'm not going to do that. And then it throws everything into question. And maybe some people who don't really want to do that will say, yeah, OK, I won't do that either. So you have to stand up for what you think is right, unlike the Democratic Party. Excuse me. I always throw politics into this.

[25:20]

Which reminds me of Doonesbury. Have you been following Doonesbury? He says to his son, I think it'd be good if you read the newspaper, you know, find out what's going on in the world. The son says, yeah, I do read the newspaper. And the father says, you do? What do you read? And he says, I read the crime page, the crime section. And the father says, I didn't know there was a crime section. And the son said, yeah, it's where all the corporations are talked about. And the father says, oh, that's the financial page. And the son says, no wonder nobody ever goes to jail. So possessing, I'm sorry, so having, possessing is not the right word here.

[26:30]

So having a wife and children, we don't possess our wives and children, we just have them. Always exercising pure virtue. That's strange. Though, though having. Well, I think that the meaning here is because Vimalakirti is somewhere in between a monk and a layperson, you know. So even though he has a family, he's still virtuous, whatever that may mean. This was written 2,000 years ago, so we have to kind of translate that into the 21st century. They're surrounded by family, holding aloof from worldly pleasures. This kind of goes with it. It's like not being overwhelmed by things of the world. You have the family, and yet you don't get carried away

[27:35]

It's very easy to have a family and then say, well, you know, I have to take care of my family and I just can't practice. That's a big one. Very big one. How do you practice and still take care of a family? How do you find the time to practice Zazen and with the Sangha, participate with the Sangha, and maintain family harmony? Practice has to permeate the family life in some way. If it doesn't, then the wife says, or the husband says, here you are getting up early in the morning and going to that zendo. There has to be some, they have to feel some benefit from practice.

[28:39]

So this is very difficult for everybody, but possible. So the big challenge, how to make family life practice and not keep the two separate. It's very interesting. In my experience of 38 years of doing this, I've seen children growing up in Zen Center and really resenting it, you know. not liking the fact that their parents were facing the wall when they should be playing with them or something. And yet, at some point around 1920 or 21, the children come and start practicing. This happens over and over again. But while they're growing up, they feel a kind of resentment.

[29:42]

because the parent's not fully engaged, or what seems like they're not fully engaged with the family life. Or the family life is a little different from the family life of their friends. So that can be a problem. So this is one of the hardest parts because practice life, even for lay people, is oriented around a quasi-monastic model. So this is a big koan and I won't pursue it any further because this could take a huge, a whole discussion. And then, though using the jeweled ornaments of the world, yet adorned with spiritual splendor. That's a very high-minded sentence, using the jeweled ornaments of the world.

[30:48]

Well, that could be, you know, taking a position in the government or taking a wonderful dwelling place and so forth, and yet adorned with spiritual splendor. So that would indicate someone who, no matter what their position as far as society goes, would be regarded more as a spiritual person, spiritual leader, rather than simply a head of a corporation or head of a government. Their outstanding spiritual life would be more dominant and would be the thing that people would admire most about them.

[31:55]

like our president. All presidents claim to be Christians. What would Jesus do? Whatever it is that he would do, I'm going to do the opposite. They're eating and drinking, yet enjoying the though eating and drinking. What it means, though having these wonderful things to eat and drink, yet not being seduced by that and being able to have the meditation be the most enjoyable part of your life, even though they have pain in your legs. Though frequenting the gambling house, yet leading the gamblers into the right path.

[33:08]

You know what the gambling house is? The stock market. You can put your social security into there. they're coming in contact with heresy yet never letting your true faith be impaired. So heresy is kind of a strong word. You can extend that to even though people have different ideas to not get carried away or lose your footing, lose your own base. I remember Suzuki Roshi used to say It's fine to visit other practices and visit other teachers and so forth, but first you should be settled in your own practice.

[34:14]

If you're settled in your own practice, you can give and take with other people, other teachers, other practices, without losing yourself. and then you can benefit from that. But if you have a weak root, then you're easily just kind of pulled around. And so being able to stay with your confidence and not get pulled around then, though having a profound knowledge of worldly learning, yet ever finding pleasure in things of the spirit as taught by Buddha." So that, I think that's, you know, you can be a scientist and still have a practice.

[35:18]

And your practice is guided by Buddhist principles. And then, governing both the old and the young as a righteous judge. Righteous judge means no partiality, to be able to see things clearly from the point of view of big mind, and not be partial, even to your own preferences, to be able to set your preferences aside and really be an impartial judge. And then, I'm not going to do all of these, but a couple more I do want to do. Preaching the law when among wealthy people is the most honorable of their kind.

[36:26]

In other words, to be a wealthy person and yet at the same time to be able to preach the law to other wealthy people. These are the people that really need to preach to the wealthy. The poor are always preaching to the wealthy. But to have the wealthy preach to the wealthy, that's important, most important. And dissuading the rich householders from covetousness when among them as the most honorable of their kind. So these two kind of are the same, two aspects are the same. To teach the wealthy how to be humans, how to act righteously in the world. So when we have access to wealth and we have access to distributing it and to working with it, to teach people how to do it in a way that's not dishonest.

[37:48]

I think our country is going into economic meltdown at the moment, even though, you know, people are trying to prop it up by saying, oh, there's no recession. It's just a little bit. Ah, loony. You should read the crime page. But no one will go to jail. because the government is the corporations. I wish it wasn't so, but it is. So, do you have any questions? Ross? return to the late life and I reminded us something Norman said some time ago about when you're born

[39:07]

Yeah, out the gate. As soon as you leave the gate. But does that mean that we can't maintain this quasi-monastic practice outside the gate? No, that's what we're trying to do. That's what I'm saying. That's how you practice. Right. It's just a way of saying something. Yeah, well, to me it sounded like we do this quasi-monastic practice here. I'm saying this is where you have the forms of practice. This is where the Zen Do and the Zen Center creates the atmosphere of practice. That's the monastic practice. You act in a certain way when you come to the Zen Do. You act in their rules and customs. So this is where you have your And you leave the world, actually.

[40:42]

You leave the world. As soon as you come in the gate, you've left the world. It's a different world. And then when you go out of the gate, it's a different world. But you don't have to make it different. That's what I'm saying. You extend the world as the zendo, as your practice. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be two worlds. Nita. I wonder if the form could actually hinder these rules and I'm doing it, so this is practice. And if practice stops at the gate, when the forms change, then was it practice?

[41:49]

I didn't say practice stops at the gate. I said practice extends beyond the gate. Right, but if... Let me see if I can say this right. If people... If it's a problem, if stopping the form, the quasi-monastic forms that follow here, if a discontinuation of that creates a discontinuation of practice, is the form an impediment to true practice? No. Forms are here to help us, not to impede us. I think you kind of, somehow, I don't know how this misunderstanding comes up, The point is that everything we do is practice. So there's no inside and outside. That's just an artificial thing. There's no inside or outside. So when I talked about precepts, I said you have to find the way on each moment, whether you're here or there.

[42:54]

This is where you have specified forms, right? Then when you go out of the gate, you have to find the forms in all of your activity. You have to turn the forms that you meet into practice. So it's back and forth, back and forth, and yet it's like turning it inside out, like turning the bag inside out. On one side, it's the formal practice in the zendo, and then you turn the bag around and it's informal practice in the world. But they inform each other. Within the formal practice, there's informality. Within the informal practice, there's formality. But you have to find that formality. It's there in all the things that you do. Formality, or practice, is there. So I don't see what the problem is. I just don't get why that should be a problem.

[44:05]

Maybe the bag is extra. Well, you know, did you ever go to school? You go to school and you study and then you go out and you live your life. So is the school extra? What I understand her to be saying is that forms can be impediments if we're attached to them, just like anything can be impediments if we're attached to it. But the forms are teaching non-attachment. Yeah, I think that's what you're talking about. I think what I understood you to be talking about, from my interpretation, is that when we're in here, we're practicing the forms, it's sort of the monastic.

[45:06]

This is what I'm being when I'm in here, and if I don't do any practice at all, and I'm, quote, out there, I'm being a layperson, but the quasi-monastic is me living out there, for lack of a better way to put it, with what I practice in here. Yeah. That's sort of what I understood. That's what I said. Alan? Well, I've been thinking about this. I've been helping edit an essay by Sho Haku Okumura, and I wonder if it's useful maybe to, instead of using the word forms, which there's something about energy that way, but he doesn't tell what it forms, he talks about valves. So reframing, and the precepts are not forms, they're valves.

[46:09]

But what he says, which is interesting, is that we have these valves, which I think is the same as we have these forms, and they don't come to life And that that, it goes back to something earlier in your talk, in the precepts, we can never fully do them. The Bodhisattva vows to save all beings and enter all dharmic gates, we can never completely do it. So along with vow is repentance for what's incomplete, accepting. and going on.

[47:10]

But for me, vow is a useful way of thinking about form. I think forms and vows are not exactly the same. So form is how you perform. And a vow is something deeper, which But living by vow instead of living by karma, living by karma is like living in the world without understanding how we create suffering. And living by vow is how we live in the world understanding how we create suffering. So living by vow, that's correct. And that's the basic thing is to live. That's called raising wisdom, living by vow.

[48:16]

You live knowing what creates suffering and what doesn't and trying to live that kind of life. Yeah. of trying to maintain mindfulness outside in the work, et cetera. There are a number of things that maybe could become other forms, but still I think are very interesting that people have suggested. For example, Lewis Richmond wrote a whole book on this and had lots of interesting things. For example, when you're driving on the freeway, consider kicking a lane in a car and staying behind that car. But if somebody pulls in front of you, let them do it. But just, you know, and then concentrate rather than trying to get one car length ahead and see if you can save one minute or whatever. And things like, I remember one thing I think was when you're at work, when you go through the doorway anywhere in work,

[49:26]

always put the right foot first. Not because there's anything virtuous about putting the right foot first, but it's just a way of staying mindful rather than getting totally caught up and lost in whatever terrible things going on at work. And there was another thing that in the Windbell book, I can't remember whose article it was, but it was suggested that one take the position of the other And an example was given of somebody in a nursing home where there's all kinds of stuff going on and the patients are crying out and wanting something and the families are visiting and the bells are ringing and all this stuff is going on and the TV is on and nobody's watching it. And the idea was this person suggested taking the position of the TV and thinking about what it It is to be the TV that's on and nobody's watching. Anyway, there are a lot of things like that. Interesting. Yep.

[50:27]

Thank you very much.

[50:29]

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