we take up four precepts at once under the heading of Right Speech. So I'll briefly outline each one in a little commentary, and then we can discuss them So right speech is one of the factors in the Eightfold Path. Not lying, not discussing the faults of others, not praising self at the expense of others, and not defaming the three treasures.

[01:11]

These are the four precepts which deal with right speech. And number four, number So body, speech, and mind are the three categories of the way we relate. So speech is a big one. So the first one is not telling lies or telling the truth, being truthful in speech. And some of the aspects of this are rootless words, being loyal to the essence and everything else will

[02:19]

precept, having no guile, willingness to accept the consequences of our actions, that is, being truthful to ourselves. And so these are just some thoughts which come with this precept. And then the precept of not discussing the faults of others. Some thoughts on that are the realized mind is at rest and deals with things as they are. The ghost mind is noisy and deals with its own obsessions. creations and paying attention to shortcomings without... paying attention to shortcomings

[03:44]

It's a good thought. With an objective mind. So this is very important. It's not that, you know, you say, well, how can we criticize? Or how can we point something out when there's fault or something's wrong? So this thought is like to see something objectively without adding your own subjective element into it. So there's a fault, or there's pointing out faults, and then there's fault-finding. And fault-finding is a kind of attitude which is very subjective and critical, which is different than just pointing out objectively the fault and not having anything in your heart at the bottom of your heart about it, but simply saying something the way it is.

[05:03]

Because pointing out faults can be a kind of rejection and separation. Then there's malicious gossip and what is helpful and what is not. And Suzuki Roshi used to say, when he was at Tassajara, people would ask him about the things that he sees. And he said, when I walk down the path, I just keep my eye on where I'm going, and I don't look to the right or to the left. In other words, I'm not snooping to see who's right and who's wrong, and who's doing this and who's doing that. I'm just paying attention to my practice. Which is a great model, but very hard to do.

[06:19]

And then there's the aspect of humility and not stereotyping. I think this is important. pointing out others' faults. You know, it's easy to stereotype. And pretty soon you believe your point of view. And then you cannot see this person in any other way. Then what you set up in your mind So then there's praising self at the expense of others, or praising self and diminishing others. Sometimes when we want to get ahead through ambition, we're too much in a hurry.

[08:03]

And so we put, in order to get up, even though we other people lower in order to feel higher. And then we gossip about somebody and say, someone's cellular is really better there. And we believe these things. Because when somebody says something about somebody that's derogatory or false, whether we believe it or not, it sets up something in our mind about that person. And when we see that person or think about that person, we think about that remark, and we wonder about it. It's very interesting how that works. And then there's the fact of not comparing yourself, but just dealing with your own practice, because everyone is in a different place.

[09:14]

and has different things to deal with. And then there's the fact of responding rather than reacting. And responding with a settled mind instead of reacting with an agitated mind. And Dogyeom talks about identity action as being a practice. To identify with others rather than to separate yourself from others. And to realize that someone else's fault is also, could be your fault. And by concerning yourself with your own weaknesses, when you think about someone else's weaknesses, to think about, well, what are mine?

[10:21]

And to realize there's no you or I. And I'll read you some, a poet, Canto, the Sixth Patriarch, concerning this subject. And then number 10 is not defaming the three treasures, the Buddha, the Dharma, Each one of us embodies the Three Treasures. And the Three Treasures looks like Buddha out there, and Dharma is someplace, and Sangha is out there. But Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha is not out there. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha emerge from our own being as ourself, as each one of us individually and collectively.

[11:25]

So when we defamed the three treasures, we're actually negating ourself. Or sounds, it sounds weird. Okay, so... Some of these are more interesting than others to me.

[12:44]

I'm not lying. You know, we're brought up saying do not cry a lot. When George Washington and the Cherry Tree. Pinocchio. Pinocchio, the nose goes longer. Ronald Reagan, I remember Ronald Reagan. We were told that this story about George Washington and the Cherry Tree, right? That story's a lie. Well, that's what I heard. What happened? Well, he said he never... I mean, basically, the gist of the story is that he never told a lie. That can't be true, is it? No. We don't know. So, better not to start now. I always walk away from gossip.

[13:55]

Sometimes I get caught by it, though. We all get caught by gossip, here and there. I have to say, I never listen to people's conversations. When somebody's in a bus, you know, talking behind me, I just tune out when somebody's having a conversation that's not concerning me, or that I'm not involved in. I just tune out, and I never overhear things that people say. It's just a kind of something that I just somehow developed without trying to. But I don't want to load my head with stories about people and things. It's just uninteresting. And I think for a Zen student, gossiping is really bad. Sometimes you don't hear things that would be informative if you don't.

[15:03]

But nevertheless, small talk is a little different than gossip. Small talk is about things that are not so important. But small talk can be enlightened talk if it's not self-centered and it's not about somebody and it's not spreading rumors. And it's not lying. It can be okay. But I remember when Ronald Reagan was telling so many lies, he got this thing on his nose. And it kept getting bigger and bigger. And he finally had to have it cut out. Well, I find that I say things to make people feel uncomfortable, so I probably wouldn't say so much.

[16:14]

But I know that in my past experience that not saying so much makes other people feel uncomfortable. Like, oh, she's stuck up, or she's arrogant, or she doesn't care. But a lot of times I'll just be kind of... and actually they probably feel comfortable already. So there's this way that I find that I just say much more than I want to, just kind of out of habit. But sometimes you make people feel uncomfortable by trying to make them feel so comfortable. But I think we all do, a lot of us do that to some extent.

[17:18]

And I just wanted to say one more thing, which is I think some people, though I don't hear it so much, but some people do praise themselves at the expense of others, but other people take the other side, which is I'm so bad, I'm nothing. That's also egotistical. The other side of the ego spectrum is to denigrate self-denigration. Sometimes we get sympathy that way, and sometimes Can you do that? Some people think that small talk and rumor is something that evolved for the safety of the tribe.

[18:22]

That it's actually a, can be like a safety valve. And sometimes I think to myself that I'm really grateful for BS because if we were all just at each other's throats, you know, so it's a good thing to, you know, if you could just go along and grease the wheels of society and say, you know, this is a really nice haircut, you know? This seems quite good, you know? You look good, yeah. It seems to make things go along. One must be very skillful. Yeah? Yeah. this truthfulness and then there is saying what's on your mind without being cautious or tactful, right?

[19:32]

So, if we just say what's on our mind, this is the truth, you know. So, you know. It's not the truth. It's just your idea of the truth. You know. And I've seen this happen a lot, you know. This is the truth, so I'm saying it. But it's very hurtful. It doesn't have to be put that way. You don't have to express yourself in a way that is damaging just because you think it's the truth. So there's a tactful way of expressing the truth, which is, yeah, your hair is very nice, even though... But that's just self-subjective, right? It's not nice or nice. It's just hair. And it's just calmed in a certain way. So it's not good or bad or nice or not nice. It's just what it is. So you can say, yes, very nice.

[20:41]

For you. Meaning, for you. I'm happy for you because you feel that's very nice. On top of your head. think, express a lot is our truth, is really just our opinion. I was just thinking of how the general public speech has degenerated into people agreeing to sort of twist what's apparently true, like the whole spin for saw was not what we actually saw. And there are people that make a lot of money doing this. I mean, you know, this is all they do, is figure out how they can present certain events and facts to the general public and convince them that something different has happened.

[21:43]

And I find that really interesting because it seems to permeate everything. And I work in a corporation, and what's really interesting about being a corporate being is that you constantly have to watch what you say in order not to tell the truth. In order to not say what exactly is happening, you have to really tread this tightrope all the time. And so, being the kind of person who finds it hard to pretend that something isn't happening the way that it's happening, it's interesting to observe myself in that context. And many times when someone asks me something, I say, well, don't ask me if you don't want to hear what I really think. If you just want to hear a canned thing, or you want me to disagree with you, ask somebody else. But it is difficult. And I think that we try to bring up our children to be truthful.

[22:51]

And yet, you have to tell them when it's dangerous to be truthful. And when it's okay to lie, because sometimes it is. But this whole media thing, it's really curious and I wonder just how far it's going. I think it's gone almost as far as it can possibly go, but maybe not. There's this fiction, people believe the fiction that's being created by a certain number of people who are in power and who are sort of in charge of the story that's being told now. Yeah. Well, the masters of illusion and spreading the veil of illusion over people's eyes, dust, you know, stardust. And you're in this other world thinking that things are different than they

[23:56]

That's why it's hard to be truthful or be real. Because you're dealing with people that have their own illusory way of thinking. And then they don't like you when you present the reality. It's very difficult. It's true. Mary? I was struck by your One of the things you said was willingness to accept the consequences of our actions, and I know that's a place where I hadn't thought of it as lying, but it is a place where I do lie sometimes, at least hedge a lot, where I've taken a position or I've done something or said something which may actually be just fine, but somebody's upset about it. And or when I get questioned, I suddenly realize maybe it wasn't so hot.

[25:10]

And suddenly I want to backpedal, I want to soften it, I want to take it back. I want to hide rather than say, well, yes, that is what I think. Or we defend a position that is not true. This is one of the biggest problems, I think, with people is defending a position that is trying to hide our truth, our reality, and then we try to defend our false position. And then the karma from that puts us on a track that gets further and further away from the reality of our life. And then every once in a while we're brought up short, you know, and realizing how far off We are, because one thing leads to another, and then pretty soon we just keep perpetuating the same falsehood.

[26:14]

So accepting the consequences of whatever it is that we do is very important, because it's painful, maybe painful, but at least we stay rooted in reality. So sometimes when a criminal gets caught, they're so happy that they got caught because they can finally reroute themselves into reality, even though they may not end up in jail. This happens over and over again with people who commit crimes. Hillary? It seems like in the horrendous things that have happened in the 20th century, sometimes religious people have borne witness and said what's happening. And often they have not, and they've remained silent.

[27:21]

And to me that's a form of lying. That when someone should step forward, I agree with you about skill, But when someone should step forward and have courage, I guess I feel really deeply that the world needs spiritual people to have that kind of courage, to be able to simply and straightforwardly say what's actually going on and not get involved in, you know, group collusions. That's one thing. I feel very, very concerned about that because I don't necessarily see a lot of training in that area. And then secondly, you know, communities can take on a kind of a political way of stonewalling. And that feels to me lying too, where you are at a meeting and you don't say your opinion and then you go to a smaller meeting and then that's where your resistance comes out and you say how you feel.

[28:26]

And I think that those, to me, those are aspects of community that could be really difficult, and corruption can come in. And then I wonder, what does Suzuki Roshi mean just as himself? Yes, he walks, and he only lives here. But what about as a spiritual leader of a community? then doesn't he have to look and see about the health of his community? I'm not sure exactly where you are now. Maybe not to look, to criticize, but doesn't he have to see what's going on and concern himself? I'm not saying, you know, but doesn't a spiritual leader have to actually look, not to be critical of other people, but they have to see what really, really is going on One should always see what's going on.

[29:29]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I don't look to her, but I just look at my practice. That's just a, he doesn't mean that, literally. Right, but I mean, there's more. That's about, that's maybe 60% of it, right? There's more. Yeah. I think that, you know, yes. A spiritual leader should know what's going on with everybody as much as possible, as much as you can know what's going on. You can't know everything that's going on with everybody. But you can feel the undercurrent of what's going on with the community. I mean, one should be able to feel the rumbling in the earth, or the rustling of the leaves. That seems necessary. It doesn't have to be critical, but... No. It's... you can't hide from... Yeah, but where did you get the... where did you get the... because of what I said about Suzuki Roshi?

[30:36]

No, I was just... I don't... Suzuki Roshi was hiding from what the stories I've heard, but I was... I was just kind of using his example because I've kind of heard that... I think... Anyway... Yeah. I just was... It seems to me that sometimes you do have to look at what's going on and see. Yeah, you always have to be aware. Always. That's right. You always have to be aware. And I think Suzuki Yoshi was pretty aware, but he was not always criticizing people. What he meant was, I'm not criticizing people. I'm promoting people. I'm promoting everyone's practice. I'm not criticizing people, although sometimes very critical. And sometimes he's very critical of me, you know, and... But... Not, you know, not coming out and...

[31:53]

saying something that should be said is a way, it's not lying, but it's not being totally forthcoming. And so it's not allowing the truth to do its work, I would say, to do what it could do. It's not like withholding we talked about last week. Withholding, yeah. It's like withholding. but not in a sense of greediness. Maybe out of fear or out of feeling of not being competent. So I think you have to be careful with people. It's one thing to accuse everybody of being reticent, you know. which is to put everybody back, or to encourage people to come out, you know, in a way that everybody's in a different place.

[32:57]

You know, some people have the sword in their hand, some people are kind of hiding in the closet, some people are under the cotons, you know. But, you know, to help everybody to find their courage. I think that's more appropriate, I think. But sometimes you can say, well, I haven't done that particular thing, but I'm pretty sure I can do it.

[34:25]

Or something. But that is different than if he thought he couldn't do it and he said yes. Yes, that's right. Because what I liked about what you said was that you felt you could go to other sources or study or ask other people so that you could come back and do it. So it doesn't really feel like lying in that way. No, I wouldn't, yeah. It's not being totally forthcoming with the truth. But there is a buffer zone. It's not like it's either right or it's wrong. And we live in this kind of buffer zone between truth and falsehood and right and wrong. And that's the place where You don't know.

[35:36]

And so you have to do something. Because you don't know exactly. If you say, I can't, it's not right. And if you say, I can't, it's not right. So it's a kind of co-op. Anyway, most of the jobs, I try to figure out an hourly rate. I try to figure out an hourly rate that I'm going to get. And if I don't know how to do the work, I end up usually taking a loss measure. I don't know how to write things out. I don't know how to put it on a box. I don't know how to measure it. Well, sometimes taking the loss is like your wage as an apprentice for that particular job. So it all evens out. I was thinking about my speech yesterday and reading this article about research in psychology where language in psychotherapy is very much in that buffer zone because how you diagnose somebody, the speech you use, has a large impact.

[36:59]

And it was on a group of patients referred to as borderlines, who are usually thought of as being the most difficult because they tend to be suicidal and needy and difficult in many ways. So it described how clinicians think of them and how they describe them. And then it went to 10 people who had that diagnosis and asked for their stories. And the way that they described their own experience was very consistent within the group, but extraordinarily different from how the therapists described them. And their description of their own experience was like, for instance, therapist said they have a very diffuse sense of identity. One week they do this and the next week they do that. They try on this haircut or those clothes or they just can't settle on an identity. But the people themselves said, no, I feel like I have a very solid sense of identity as a very inadequate person. And it was just, it was so different and I feel so despairing and no, I don't feel like

[38:04]

boundaries, and you keep me out. You know, all of you are having this good life, and I just can't get into the human circle. And I was really struck by, both were sort of true, in a way, but one was from the outside, and in a very judging and distancing mind, because these are people who are giving me a hard time, and the other was from the experience of that person. But I think that what we need to do is go and get on to the next one, because otherwise we won't get through. Right. Can we wait a few minutes? OK. I would like to go to just a few minutes of not discussing the faults of others. Perfectly do that a little bit. How do you point out a fault without breaking the precept?

[39:13]

I think that's a kind of good question. How can you point out a fault that you see in somebody without breaking the precept, finding fault? I think that when you first were commenting on that, you also said, Well, I think I remember you saying something like, there's a way of objectively saying something you see without any other seed in there. Subjective. Right. Or there is a way of already coming up with your own agenda and then describing what you see, and you know, even in the tone of voice, that it's, you know, you're condemning the person. I mean, I kind of identify with that because I feel like I've done that a lot in my life. You know, that I know a certain stirring inside, an emotional stirring inside, and I know that what I'm pointing to sure is there, but what's behind it is more than what I am pointing to.

[40:29]

And that kind of reminds me, and that was something else that I about this right speech, which seems to me that the problem is not with right speech. The problem is with perception. Or intention. Or intention. Because I know that I feel like I am very unskillful at times. But usually, that unskillfulness comes from an intentionality when there's no ego coming into it, you know, it seems like I'm very skillful, that I can just say what it is without harming anybody, without there being any emotional grasping or evasion or whatever. And so, I don't know that the problem is with speech so much as with, you know, one step before that, which is, what's going on in my mind?

[41:37]

What's going on with me? And the same thing with this, you know, Well, it's always what's going on with me. I mean, it's always what's going on in the mind. But then the way it's expressed is through speech. OK? Right. You know, teaching people, as soon as we're corrected, we feel criticized, almost invariably. As soon as we're corrected, we feel criticized. And if I'm teaching people to do the service, you know, to do the bells just crushed because I said, I'll do it this way and not do it that way. But I always try to be as careful as possible, not to make it personal. But no matter how much I try, it's still the same, you know. to find a way that a person doesn't feel that way.

[42:46]

I'm still trying to do that. I'm still trying to find that way, how to promote people without, to promote their good part, their good, their abilities, you know, without saying, no, that's wrong. I don't know if I can do it. I don't like to say this is wrong, but it's just not right. But the phrase that we use around here all the time, and it appeals to this independent objective reality, it usually goes like this, we usually don't build a fire in the middle of the Zimba. I was listening to what you said, you know, like being able to say something to someone in order to instruct them without their feelings being hurt.

[44:01]

something inside, you know, and it must mean something a lot of the time if it sort of hits the target and the person, you know, reacts that way. And maybe it's just the inevitable result to pointing something out because you're sort of in this complacent space and you're grooving along and you think everything is cool until somebody points out that maybe it's not, you know? It just shakes you up for a minute. So they'll either get over it or they won't get over it. And if you're not being cruel, You know, if you're not being blatantly cruel, if you're being kind, well then in a way that's their problem, you know. So... I feel retreated. But that's also true. I realize that very much. Eric. Eric? I think that's right.

[45:29]

We started to talk a lot about the mind state of the person who's being instructed. One thing I thought of is that it might be possible to start the conversation by saying, by either recognizing the mind state that they would fall into, which is that they feel like they have to do it perfectly the first time, or else to observe when they start to get agitated when you correct well you know this this is a mindfulness practice to learn how to do this and it's a practice and there you know when we go into this I hope you will be recognizing that that it doesn't go perfectly the first time that there are mistakes and they offer you the same opportunity as Yeah, I do that.

[46:36]

But what I usually say to people is, when you sound the bell, you don't hit it. You sound the bell. And try and make the sound that's most inspiring to you. And then I leave them alone. But sometimes I say, But I want to read you something about fall finding. This is from the Six Pajaks, from Sutra. And this is almost the end of this gatha. And he says, one who treads the path in earnest sees not the mistakes of the world. If we find fault with others, we ourselves are also in the wrong.

[47:39]

When other people are in the wrong, we should ignore it. But my translation of that is we should look for the cause. I don't think we can ignore when someone does something wrong. But I think we should look for the reason or for the cause. And when we do that, that's stepping back. That stepping back enables us to respond, instead of just reacting to what's happening. As soon as we start to react, then the other person feels that reaction, and then it's backed away. And pretty soon, you get further and further away from each other. So, then he says, For it is wrong for us to find fault. By getting rid of the habit of fault-finding, which is a way, an attitude, we cut off the source of defilement.

[48:47]

When neither hatred nor love disturbs our sleep, our mind, serenely we sleep. By love, it means kindness, without expecting something or without self-interest, metta. And karuna, which is compassion. And mudita, which is sympathetic joy, and equanimity, having an even mind, not getting tossed about by your reactions. But it sounded like maybe he was using a different way there.

[49:50]

He said, but neither hatred nor love? Yeah. He's using hatred or love, meaning falling into extremes, the duality, actually, of love and hate. seeing things as they really are. So it's true, he's just using the word love in a way of attachment to either love or attachment to hate. So we think of love in the sense of attachment. But in Buddhism, love is those four aspects because they are not They're free of attachment. There's no self-interest. Speaking of cutting off the source of delusion, when you wake up one moment and find yourself about to correct or qualify, a good suggestion is to pull up an imaginary cushion right there and sit down.

[51:10]

And if you can completely forget what it was you were going to say to that, times out of 100, you're going to find that you didn't have to tell them. And that your trust in them, that you placed in them by not correcting them, results in them getting it sooner. I've been feeling that by living in the same cooperative house in college for five years. It became sort of one of the old I think it's very important. It's a precious opportunity right now.

[52:13]

It's that opportunity that on your other off days you always wish you had. You find yourself thinking, how come I can't find that handle on a Dharma to grab it and shake it around? That handle is right there when you find yourself about to correct. That's the point you wish you had last week. And you just let it go. But it's not letting go. It's like connecting with the person. Somehow connecting. Making this connection. And not abandoning, but taking that in. And there's something about one's attitude that changes. It's very subtle. In time, that attitude, that subtle attitude is very strong and plants something in that person and then grows and at some point they find it within themselves.

[53:24]

You don't have to tell them. I know that sounds mysterious. I'm So let's deal with the last two quickly. Praising self at the expense of others. Of course, praising self is egotistical, and it also reinforces the self.

[54:31]

And each one of us is in a as I said, in the place where we are. And in practice, we say there is a kind of ladder, but not really, but just as a metaphor. And each one of us is standing on some rung of the ladder, and the person above is helping us, and the person below is being helped by us. And so we just happen to be in the position that we are, in the place we are, and with whatever it is that we have at any moment. So where we are is really no better than any other place, or any worse. But we sometimes get very ambitious because we think that if we're really ambitious we'll get up to here, and that would be better than where we are.

[55:43]

But actually, we don't get there. We don't find a real place. We may get some position, but it's not the real place where we're supposed to be. Because the real place where we're supposed to be is the place where we are. Where we really are. And if we try to scramble to get to some higher place, that higher place will not support us. We will not be supported there because that's not where we're supposed to be. So we have to be very careful. I always use the metaphor of water. Water, practice should be like water. Water's always looking for the lowest place and always finds itself in every situation, fills every situation whatever situation it's in. And so it's always grounded and always exactly where it's supposed to be.

[56:54]

But then it winds up up in the sky in clouds. And then it comes back down and then it goes back up and it comes back down. So wherever it is, it finds itself. So this is our practice. Wherever you find yourself, that's where your practice is. And that's the space you should fill. Not trying to be someplace else or get something. And if you practice that way, you will inevitably rise to your potential. And you will inevitably be in the position that is right for you. And you may find yourself at the very top of some place. Mountain. That's okay. Or you may find yourself at the bottom next. That's okay too. But to try to get somewhere is that kind of ambition.

[58:04]

What we do is as we climb up the mountain, we keep throwing the dirt clogs back to the people below us. So we should be helping people up. And actually, Bodhisattva should be promoting everyone first, right? Before you get to the top of the mountain, everyone else should be arrived, and then you make your entrance. And then everybody will greet you and say, thank you very much. But haven't the Bodhisattvas already arrived to the top of the mountain? The top of the mountain. The bodhisattva has arrived at the top of the mountain when wherever he is, is the top of the mountain. Or she. Yes. When you don't care where you are, then you've arrived at the top of the mountain. I remember in a lecture, he said, well, it's kind of like, if I find fault with that person, well, what was the cause of conditions that caused them to be that way, and the cause of conditions that caused me to be this way?

[59:50]

You can start working it out in this web, but you know, well, there was this, and then there was this, and pretty soon it includes the whole universe. And that's kind of like, you know, condensing the argument. So, if I'm blaming somebody else, I'm blaming the whole universe, really. That's how I look at it. I'm trying to blame somebody else for this condition. I'm trying to blame, well, I'm in this position because somebody did that. You know, so I'm figuring this out. Then I realize, well, I'm blaming the whole personnel itself. And then you realize that things are just the way they are. Yeah. You either drop that, and things are just the way they are. It's like the boat, you know. People in a boat on the river. And they see this other boat coming down the river. And the boat seems to be heading toward them. And they're saying, but the boat just keeps coming.

[60:56]

Hey, they're yelling, waving their arms. Nothing happens. The boat just keeps coming. And then at the last moment, the boat just kind of misses and goes by. They see there's nobody on the boat. Try to find the cause of what happened in your life. It's impossible. You can see some of the causes, you see some of the direct causes, and you can trace some of those, but you cannot connect all the causes in the world to see how So instead of looking for causes, you can look for causes in the sense of you know that there's some reason why things are happening.

[62:12]

You may or may not know the reasons. But if you get hung up on the fault, then you can't really put your attention into how to do something. So in Zen practice, the question why is not a very important question. The important question is, how? As of this moment, how do I do something? Not, gee, why'd that happen? No. I mean, you take that into consideration, but it's not important. What's important is, now what do I do? Now how do I do this? What's the next step? That's the important question, how, not why. As the Sixth Patriarch says, if we keep finding fault with things and with people, then we ourselves are at fault. And that may be hard to swallow, you know.

[63:17]

It's not my fault. It's their damn fault. But that's just dualistic understanding. Non-dualistic understanding, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. Just get on with it. All right. And then, kind of at the end of this whole thing, Suzuki Gojo said to him, yes, well, if you want to see virtue, you have to have a calm mind.

[64:34]

Yeah. That's a hard truth. End of story. Yes. Well, the last one is not defaming the three treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And what do you do if somebody does? Starts complaining about the three treasures. That's criticizing your practice.

[65:39]

the Dalai Lama, I was reading his book on anger, and he said that you can't, that if, he was talking in the context of someone actually ruining property like the Buddha, the altar, or stealing it or something like that, that there's really nothing to steal. So I get mad. What he should know. Yeah, I think it's remarkable how he could keep his calm mind. And there must be things that just are upsetting him inside, to the extreme. And yet, he keeps taking in all of this hostility.

[66:55]

manufactures, out of that raw material, manufactures dharma. So he's taking all the blows and negative energy and converting it into dharma energy. That's remarkable. And it's easier for most people to do that if they want to, but it must be so difficult for him who's had everything destroyed and taken away and been through so much, been through so much suffering. Thich Nhat Hanh is like that too, has that same basic And what do you, you know, what's the appropriate, you know, he returned the money and he said that was a generous estimate of what he'd taken.

[68:27]

And that may well be true, it's probably true, but we'll never know absolutely for sure. And, you know, what do you, what do you do with somebody who's responsible to the, people gave their money thinking that it would be used for the door. It would kind of go away for a while. Of course you care, but how should you care? I really have been often at a loss about it. Because there's part of me that really doesn't care very much about it at all, really. I care about how it came about, and so on, and our communications with each other, and doing better, and being willing to help people, and wah, wah, wah. That I care about. But in terms of what he did, I don't care very much.

[69:31]

And I wonder, should I care? Should I think about, should I be more aggressive about saying there should be consequences or should we as a board of Zen Center and so on? I just, I really don't know. Well, I was avid at the time. Yes, I know. And my response was to that this whole affair was giving him the opportunity to redefine his life. And if he had been punished and put into jail, what good is that going to do? So I gave him the opportunity to be honest and to make his own confession.

[70:33]

You and I knew all about it because he told me. I didn't tell anybody else. I waited for him to tell people. So in order for him to do that, he had to summon up his courage to be honest and open about what he'd done. And not putting him in under some restriction, but to help him to find his way back into seeing, I mean, he obviously saw what he'd done. And through his own remorse to find his way back into practice, which actually he's doing in some way, and help him to reform. So that's my response.

[71:38]

It never bothered me one moment, the money. It never bothered me at all. I know that he put it back. So what's there to be worried about as far as the money goes? The only thing we have to be worried about is that he did something dishonest. We don't know anything about anybody's money. I mean, I could have taken money. Somebody else could have taken money. I don't know if that's the point. I mean, so maybe he took more money, maybe he took less money. That's not the point. I mean, we don't know that he took more money, so why should we think, why should, you know, we linger about, should he, did he take, he was investigated, you know, and they didn't find that he took more money, the investigators, right? So, maybe he did, but why would he take more money and then confess? I mean, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't jive. I don't know. It's hard for me to hear people say anything definite about it.

[72:42]

Because I feel like we just don't know. So it makes me uncomfortable when people say things that are definite about it. Because I feel like I don't know it. You didn't have to say anything at all. I don't much care. You didn't have to say anything at all. I'm sorry. I don't know if it's helpful for us to get a debate about it. What I was trying to bring up was just that it's not it's not always easy to know what's, you know, so somebody, you know, in some objective sense, you can say, okay, so they abused the Sangha, right? So, all right, but then, what's an appropriate response to that is a difficult thing to know. Yeah. Well, there are precedents. You know, there are precedents. There's the story of, I can't remember the name of the teacher, But he had, in China, he had a group, and there was one guy who was always taking things.

[73:44]

And the monk started complaining to the abbot, you know, the guy's taking all these things. And they said, why don't you expel him? And the abbot said, I won't expel him. I don't want to expel him. And finally, it turned out that because the abbot would not expel him. And because the abbot took him under his wing, so to speak, it wouldn't let anybody harm him or do anything. The guy felt so much contrition that he stopped doing this. Right? So... To my way of thinking, this is how the Dharma operates. You can put him in jail if you want. You can do the civil thing, you know. If you want to do the civil thing, go ahead. It's okay with me. But that's not the way I approach this, and it's not the way I like to approach it. I'm much more concerned about the person than I am about what he did, frankly. It's not that important. $60,000 is just money.

[74:45]

The important thing is this poor guy is so misguided and needs help. To me, that's the important thing. But you have to be careful with the help. You know, I've been where Bill's at. You know, I've been drug addicted. I've done all kinds of things in the world. I know where Bill was at when he did that. So I'm not, you know, but I think the question is what's helpful. Is it helpful to vary whole situation. Because actually he brought up other institutions. The community talked about it. But in that situation, you can get into a thing where you just dismiss it by saying, poor guy.

[75:52]

No, and nobody's dismissing it. I don't think it should be dismissed by saying, oh, the poor guy at all. Well, but a lot of people do say, oh, the poor guy. And so that brings up the side that says, but what about the harm that was done? Yeah. I mean, there should be a middle way. Well, everything has to be taken into consideration. That's right. But the point is that how do you help this person? Not by saying, oh, gee, you know, poor guy. That's not what I mean at all. That's not how you help him. You help him by helping him to re-establish his own honesty. Well, and possibly you help him by being able to see if there's a consequence to it. Right. And by appreciating the help that he's getting.

[76:54]

It's 9 of 5. Yes. Okay. Great. It just occurred to me that maybe a way to show that you care is to audit carefully. But I don't know, I feel a lot of criminal activity is done by people who need something. And the stuff that they're taking has nothing to do with what they need. And to get to the root of what they need, that's what's important. Sounds like what you're saying is that you want to invite him to rise to become a bigger self.

[77:56]

He's still around. As a matter of fact, he's sitting, he's practicing with Ed Browns, at Ed Brown's place. He's kind of finding his way with our teachers. Can I just say one thing? Listening to him, I didn't think nothing the board, the, oh really? The ropes and messed everything up and everyone was horrified and they wanted to punish her and they wanted her to have consequences for her actions and blah, blah, blah. And the monk's reaction to the whole thing was, so what?

[79:03]

And it was like this kind, compassionate response to her and they just started doing the painting again. I mean, so conceivably that's what happened here. This guy did this thing. Some people want to punish him. Some people want to help him out, and the people that want to help him out in a way, you know, no matter what all the details is, are, you know, we could have booted the guy out in the street, but the compassionate thing happened and he was allowed to continue to practice. So what do you do? You just keep him away from the money, you know? Well, I think that there's something deeper, you know, it's not the money. Yeah, I know there's something deeper, but I mean, you know, people say, what do we do about it? I mean, you know, I think the tendency is to You don't want to punish him for it. That's the tendency. I know. And what that does is completely overlook the causes. Maybe make him a treasurer. He was. We're building more and more new jails. More jails, more jails. And just reacting to people's... to what's happening instead of looking at what people need.

[80:10]

I mean, how can we be so stupid? It's the stupidest thing I ever heard of. To not look for the causes. I mean, there must be some reason why all these people are stealing and murdering. They're not just gangsters. There's some reason why these happen. But people don't want to look at that because they're the causes of their... ♪ He's our hope ♪

[80:49]

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