I want to hear more about the womb of the Tathagata. The womb of the Tathagata? That's the place where buddhas are born. You are there. That's where we come from. Well, now I'm going to skip quite a bit and talk about the head gardener. That's on page 15. It says here, this is a good example and metaphor for temple practice of zaikei practitioners.

[01:21]

Zaikei means lay people. Shukei is ordained people or priests, and zaikei is lay people. Sometimes when I write... I'm going to give you lay ordination, and I write zaikei tokudo on your raksusa. which means way-ordination. But this is a good example, a metaphor for temple practice of zaikei practitioners, but it's also a good one for shukhei practitioners. And so, the position of head gardener is most difficult and toilsome and should be served by someone who has the way-mind. This position should not be filled by someone who does not have the way-mind. This person is always in the garden, sowing and cultivating according to the seasons. In this position, Buddha face, ancestor face, donkey legs, and horse legs.

[02:21]

I mean, it says feet. I think legs is better. Means you're always using your body in a strong way, like donkeys and horses. It's like being a farmer or a peasant. All day long, one plows and hoes. All day long, one carries manure and urine for fertilizing, free from self-concern, awaiting the right moment of ripening for harvesting, careful not to miss the right time." So this is important in gardening, but it's also important in the rest of our life. Sometimes, you know, practice is A garden is a kind of metaphor for practice, for the place where you're practicing. Like when Senzaki, Nyogen Senzaki was teaching in San Francisco and various places in this country, long before anybody else came here, he called his practice the mentor garden.

[03:32]

Kind of like kindergarten for American Zen students. But a garden, nevertheless, was his metaphor. When he plows the ground and sows the seeds, that person does not wear formal Dharma robes or okesa, but only wears white under robes and a work robe. One translation says, and it's indistinguishable from just an ordinary garden worker. However, at the time when the community gathers to chant the Buddha's names, or sutras, or listen to lectures, or have interviews, or do zazen, that person always joins the community, puts on the robe and joins the community, and is not supposed to miss these activities.

[04:40]

So this is like our practice, right? It's like Tassajara practice. You work, and then at the time to do something, you put down your work, even though you really want to plant that next turnip. You put it down, and you go to the Buddha hall, When in the garden, every morning and evening, the gardener offers incense, bows and chants the name of Buddha, and makes a dedication to the dragon spirit and to the ground, without ever being negligent. There are various demigods, not demigods, but spirits. And in the old millennium, I guess you'd call it, in the past, people were always very careful to pay attention to the spirits around them. And I think this still happens in Japan.

[05:44]

I don't know what happens in China. The Chinese have tons of spirits that they pay attention to. And when Suzuki Roshi came to America, He said that he didn't introduce a lot of stuff to us. He made our practice very simple, and didn't introduce a lot of stuff to us that is actually done in Japan, because it's not part of our culture, and he knew that it wouldn't take here, and it wasn't necessary for us. But in some way, we miss something. I think there's something that we miss. It's not spirit, spirit worship or something like that, but it's paying attention to the spirit of things, you know, paying attention to the spirit of the ground, you know, paying attention to the spirit of the garden and the spirit of the hearth, the spirit of the stove, you know, as if the stove is a living being.

[06:56]

And we pay attention to Oryuki, you know, Oryuki is very wonderful, you know, because you really pay attention to the spirit of eating when we do Horiyoki. And when the gardener offers incense to the dragon spirit, you know, that guards the space, you know, protects the space, it's not like there's something there, but there is something there, you know, it's our attention. to the spirit is actually within us. It's not like something outside of us. And somehow it puts us in touch with the ground. Then there's certain things that really put us in touch with things. And in Japan, every little hill has a name. So if you go to take down a mound with a bulldozer, Wait a minute, that's such and such hill, you know, so you think twice about it, and there's some feeling about it.

[08:02]

There's some, you don't just move the earth around in a haphazard way. When they built the airport in Tokyo, not in Tokyo, the Tokyo airport, which is outside of Tokyo, I mean, they had a war, practically, over using those fields for an airport. And I remember the first time I went, I landed at the airport, and then you drive out on the bus, and you see these people in, well, they're kind of like pickets in a way, but they're very militant, and they're still fighting this battle, even though the airport's been there for years. But anyway, the spirit of taking care of things, taking care of the grounds, in a very selfless way, actually, is what he's saying.

[09:05]

When in the garden, every morning and evening, that person offers incense, bows, and chants the names of Buddha, and makes a dedication to the dragon spirit and to the spirit of the ground. It doesn't say that here, but that's what it means. Without ever being negligent. At night, the gardener sleeps in a cottage in the garden, assistants and workers often change at the direction of the work leader that she sleeps. Which means that the work leader decides who should work with the gardener and just says, so-and-so will now work with you and then take somebody else away. And he says, okay, even though he may think, oh gosh, I'm taking my best assistant away and giving me this person. Even though he may think so, he doesn't say so. Okay. Oh, okay. You want this one? You can have this one. You want to give me this one?

[10:08]

Thank you very much. And so this gardener, head gardener, takes someone who is inexperienced and kind of cutsy, maybe, and never tilled the soil, and makes a gardener out of that person. That's why the head gardener should be someone of quality, a quality student who knows how to shape people, knows how to shape other students, knows how to be skillful in maturing people. The same goes for all the officers. Very important. And this doesn't always happen. You know, sometimes that person isn't... we don't have someone to do that. So someone else does it, and Doug is always complaining. Nowadays, you get these... this poor quality of people, you know, never come up to the quality of the patriarchs and so forth, blah, blah, blah.

[11:17]

He's always complaining. But... Indeed, the position of gardener has been served by renowned people who have way-seeking mind. Those who have small capacity or are ill-suited have not been put in this position. In the community of my late master, Tien Tong, that is, Ru Jing, Old Man Pu of Western Xiu District was first appointed to this position when he was over 60 years old. During this time, It says during this time the positions in the community were stable, but I think it's... During this time, his position in the community was stable, because he did it for three years. His position in the community was stable for almost three years, so that gave him a lot of time to really get into the position. And the monks were joyful. Everybody was happy. Not only the monks that were under him, but the monks in the whole community.

[12:17]

because when one person has that quality, it affects the whole community. Even when someone who doesn't have a position, you know, sometimes someone doesn't have any position, just general labor, but there's something about the quality of their dedication and the way they work and the way they relate to everyone and the way they relate to their surroundings, they stand out in such a way that they influence everybody. That person influences everyone. And as I said before, you don't have to have a high position in order to lead the practice. There are actually two things going on. One is that there is a kind of hierarchy of leadership which leads the practice. And the other thing that's going on is the actual quality of each person's practice, which leads to practice.

[13:25]

So it doesn't matter what position you're in. It really doesn't matter. The quality of a person's practice, well, is always apparent. And even if that person's very quiet, never says, boom, and is seemingly insignificant. That person's practice is actually, that person's activity is actually leading the practice. So my late master was deeply pleased. If we compare this old man poo with the abbots of many monasteries, they cannot come up to the practice of this old head gardener. What time are we supposed to end, quarter to nine? It's up to me. Do you have any questions?

[14:26]

It's pretty clear, you know. There's not a lot of anything to argue about here. We'll find something. We'll find something. It's not my way of arguing, but I'm just wondering what this 340 is doing there. What it's doing there? Yeah. What is the 340 in the middle of the parenthesis? Oh, Old Man Pua, 340. That's where he lived. 340 Page Street. 340 Page Street is his actual address. Thank you. Yes. I just wanted to say that for myself, the experience of coming to a community where, say for example, and I'm not that person, and I'm not that other kind of person.

[15:27]

And then being put in a position where I didn't start, people were saying, well, what position do you want? Oh, you know, in the last place to be in, it's like, oh, you don't want to be there. And it was really interesting to see that dynamic going on, and then how I was like, OK, I wasn't juggling or trying to crew my way into a position, which I thought I'd be good at. Well, you know, then I have to be flexible. And I find that I get put in a position and people say it's hot and it's stressful and whatever. And actually, I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot. And I thought, right, there's nothing I couldn't do. Once I was there, willing to give it my best effort, people were really encouraging. They'd come over and say, you're screwing up. And I'd just say, this is the way I do it. It works well. And I'd pay attention and be like, wow, that actually worked. No. Best way, best way is not to have any ideas about anything.

[16:32]

Best way to advance, whatever that means, is to not have any ideas about anything. Just, oh, okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, it's amazing. Yes. Yeah. What should I do? And the first thing it says, like, you've had experience. And if you're like, you don't have any, you're an idiot. Right. But here, it's the opposite. Yeah. So it's hard, you know. The more experience you've had, in some ways, it's the harder it is. And sometimes people do have experience, you know. The biggest problem comes with carpenters. There's always something to do for skilled carpenters.

[17:34]

Who are the skilled carpenters? And then you always want to use these people. And so it's very hard for them. A carpenter or a mechanic, for everybody else it doesn't matter so much. But a carpenter or a mechanic is always at a disadvantage because they get used before they can be nobody. Yeah. What do you think about the idea of establishing some kind of dialogue with Native Americans? Because they already have that respect. Sure. Our white culture doesn't. Start talking. We tend to push them aside. Well, yeah, we tend to sometimes. But don't we have some kind of dialogue with the Americans down the road? It's not much. So I'm happy to do that.

[18:41]

But I think we have in the past had some, you know, some people. I remember Hickey's aunt used to go out for sweats and Little Bear comes in once in a while. What does he do? Do you have that? I've been hanging around with Indians. You've been hanging around with Indians? Well, I think it's fine. I'm happy to do that. My point is that they have something valuable to offer. They've been working for 10,000 years. A long time. They lived in this country and they didn't ruin the environment. Yep. I remember going to Jikoji, which is down in the peninsula.

[19:54]

Chino Sensei's you know, the land that they had there. One time I went there, and there were a lot of Indians. And they said, told me, said, this is where we used to live. And he didn't mean this is where my ancestors used to live. He meant this is where we used to live. Actually, it wasn't that long ago that the white man took their land away from them. We used to live here. And so we always come back and visit this place. And they were always welcome there. And they still are, I think. But it was very interesting. Every time an Indian tells me a story, it makes me cry, literally. There's something very powerful about that culture, which is actually coming back. It's beginning to come back. And I think, for I don't know what reason,

[20:56]

It's good for doing that, but I think it's a good idea. I don't know if there's any special reason for doing that, but I think it's... I have no objection to that. I think it's good to do. Well, honoring the second precept is a good reason for doing it. I'm not saying there are no reasons. Yeah. We founded this country by stealing it. Yeah, we stole it, so we can... This thing that you were talking about China and Japan and the cultural context, I think transmitted in a way, and we're taking on, you know, there have been various letters to Trisnacle addressing this issue of we may not see the golden age of Buddhism for 500 years because we're missing vital, perhaps, elements of some sort of context out of which we practice.

[22:20]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with that, but I think there is You know, where do we come from? We come from conditioning. And I think it's the same with the Native Americans, for example. It's one way we can connect with an older culture, cultural context that existed here. But that aside, the fact still exists. We have to deal with where we're coming from. and what we're not getting that Dogen and the people in China were given as a background. Well, it's true that we don't have the background that other people have had, but we have our own background. And there's always the question, what was original Buddhism? What was original Buddhism like?

[23:22]

There's no end to finding out what original Buddhism is like. And when you find out what original Buddhism is like, you realize that Buddhism is originating with you. And that's the way it's been for everybody in the past. I'm not denying that, but what I'm saying is that we cannot not question where we're coming from. No. We should question it, yeah. we have to decondition ourselves in some way. And that's kind of what our practice is, is in deconditioning. But at the same time, we can't ignore our conditioning. So there's deconditioning and also a respect for our conditioning, whatever that it may be. Not the destructive parts, necessarily, and we have to look at what the destructive parts are, you know.

[24:25]

And there's also part of American tradition, so-called, the overlaid American tradition, which is not destructive, which is ecological and which is, you know, accepting and embracing and, you know, all those things. So that also exists. So I think that it's important to respect what's good about our culture, that culture. And, you know, every country that Buddhism comes into assimilates with the culture. And, you know, in Japan, it assimilated with Bon, I mean with, not Bon, that's in Tibet, with the god, Kami, what do you call it? Shinto. And in Japan, I mean in China, with Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu and Confucius.

[25:35]

And Zen is actually a kind of Confucian, Taoist inspired Buddhism. And so, you know, Native Americans may have some influence on Buddhism in America. Is that in America? I think that's very possible. Yeah. Well, I feel, though, that there's a kind of arrogance to romanticizing the Native American way, too, because I just think that everybody's been killing each other for hundreds of thousands of years and taking territory away from each other. saying there's any excusing it at all. But then to romanticize victims or victimize people by romanticizing their culture is uncomfortable for me and it seems sort of arrogant. And I think that including the culture and, you know, not sort of perpetuating some notion of what people are like feels better to me.

[26:43]

But there's not a, you know, this kind of judgment that comes with, well, they're better than we are because we pushed him out of the way. You know, it feels funny to me. There's something funny there. And I think it's, I don't know, I just like to be a little more careful than that. I don't think that we think they're better because they pushed him out of the way. It's just that they had a sense of life that the people that pushed him out of the way didn't have. And I think it's It's remarkable, actually, quite remarkable. I think you're right, we shouldn't, we don't need to romanticize, but I think we do need to pay attention. And that's sort of what I'm saying, actually, that I just don't humble with the arrogant part of it. Well, I think you can get, you know, kind of go overboard in some ways through it, nevertheless.

[27:45]

Well, wait a minute. I think we do. And it's kind of a covert messianism, I think, of putting a halo around primitive cultures and saying, oh, they were so connected to reality, and they had such deep earth wisdom, and now we as modern people are so mechanistic and so disassociated from things. And I really don't think that's true, In the end, people spent the buffalo, they ran hundreds over the cliff, you know, to get meat or to get a small amount of meat. I mean, they used the technology of the times. Many times it was very wasteful. And I think that's the sort of problem we're dealing with now. That's a myth, because there wouldn't be any buffalo. Who killed all the buffalo? Well, I think that there's a difference. I don't want to continue this discussion this way, but there was some

[28:48]

attention paid to the... I mean, when something was killed, there was some respect paid, and it was not wholesale. It's not like harvesting. It's a very different concept. Anyway, I do think there's a big difference. Anyway, I don't want to continue this thing about Indians. I agree that it's great to relate to Indians, for one reason or another. You know, I don't want to put the reasons out there. Yes. I just wanted to see how you felt about this and if you felt it. You practice, as it says, it's getting to know the place where you are. Maybe some sittings outside. Sittings outside? Sittings outside. Or sittings outside. This is the Hiroshi Memorial.

[30:16]

We will. That rock. You can just sit up there if you want to and just allow the spirit of that hill to come and visit us. Yeah, we will do that. Jack? Yeah. It seems like there's an interesting theme developing here which is I think Dogen and all of us are talking about how there's this background where we're not paying attention, and so what we're trying to do is look for people that are, and that have the way. Also, I think that there's a danger that we need, that we're also talking about here, that we set up ourselves as incentive. And these officers, somehow they become the establishment. That, to me, is the real question.

[31:21]

Well, I'll let that remain a question for you. It seems to me that the offering to the dragon spirit and the land was an expression of a super-rational aspect of spiritual practice, and there's a longing, a very definite longing in the student for that, and looking to the Indians or other cultures our practice can be very psychologically oriented and directed and it's not, sometimes feels a little unbalanced in that respect. And I think that might be part of what we're talking about. Well, and at the same time, in the midst of this discussion, I was reflecting, you know, we make spirit offerings every day. Yes, we do. Several times a day, all of our incense offerings, We make water offerings to spirits.

[32:25]

We make food offerings to spirits. It's something that we do continuously. We chant to spirits. We invoke them. We invoke them. We talk to them. And I'm not saying, oh, we shouldn't pay any more attention to this subject. I just think we should be alert to the fact that this is something that is already part of our practice. And if we're really interested in this, maybe part of what we can do is pay more attention to what we're doing. Well, we have to be careful about being too spirit-oriented also, which Dogen warns against. Don't make offerings to the spirit of the mountain and so forth. I think there's a way of doing things which is a way of connecting with things, not a way of supplicating or creating deities.

[33:41]

That's going in the wrong direction. But just a matter of connecting. So I remember when we were going to tear up this field here, this field, this lawn in front of the student eating area, to look at the septic tank. And there was this Mexican woman, a woman from Mexico. She said, well, before you do this, you know, you should light incense and say something to the place, you know, before you tear it up. And I said, okay. So we went out there and I offered incense and I I just spoke to the, you know, to the ground, to the spirit of the lawn there, you know. We just made something up. And then we started to dig. Everybody felt really good, you know, that we... And then when we did, when we dug it out, it was this huge mess underneath it, you know. But it didn't help us any, but... But people felt that we were paying attention to what we were doing, and we were conscious of

[34:50]

of this place as being this place. Well, it was like when I cut down a huge sycamore to put in the bathhouse, you know, to clear the land, and it was a very horrible feeling. Whenever I looked down at it, it would hurt me. Yeah, so the tree is a... To not have it... Right, the tree is an inhabitant of this place. It's important that we take care of it. We used to, in the summers, you know, there are summers that get get so hot in the summers when there are a lot of flies. Summers where there aren't so many flies. But sometimes we ate a lot of flies. And we used to trap them in these big jars. And people, they were this conscious, should we trap flies, you know? Or should we just let them fly around, you know? And Suzuki Goshi said, you know, if we don't trap the flies, the flies will do something, right? trap us. So we took care of the flies that way and then we had these big jars full of black flies, gallon jugs, and then we'd burn them and chant the sutra.

[36:01]

But we'd always chant the sutra, you know, we'd always pay attention to what we were doing and not feel that we were just killing flies, but we didn't like the idea that we were killing flies. It wasn't a good feeling that we were doing this, but we knew that we had to do it. And in doing it, we paid attention and made our feelings present about doing something we didn't like doing. So anyway, Melvin and I have been

[36:47]

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