Well, on Monday, I'm leaving for Tassajara to meet the practice period, the fall practice period, which goes until December 21st, although I come back and forth a few times. And for those of you who are not familiar with that part of our practice, Tassajara is Densen's monastery. in the mountains between Carmel Valley and Big Sur. And during the fall and winter and spring, we have practice periods for Zen students. And it's our training monastery. And in the summer, Tassajara is open to guests

[01:01]

People come and enjoy the hot springs, and the food, and the ambiance, and things like that. And the students take care of the guests during that time of their practice. So the practice period is Zazen, and we get up at 340. And we start doing Zazen around 4 o'clock. And we do Zazen most of the morning, and then sometimes lecture. And in the afternoon, there's work. And there's also some time to study. And then there's Zazen in the evening.

[02:05]

And then we do the same thing the next day. But this year, we're having a little bit different overall. The first two weeks of this practice period are going to be, we're going to have what's called Tokubetsu Sushi. And I want to explain to you what Tokubetsu Sushi is and how it all came about. It has to do with our relationship with Japan. The teachers that came to America to teach were not so much the run-of-the-mill Japanese teachers or priests.

[03:19]

And they were a little bit unusual, I think, in that they were interested in extending the frontier of Zen practice to America. And they weren't always looked upon approvingly by people in Japan. For instance, when Suzuki Roshi came to America, he came to take care of the Japanese congregation on Bush Street. Sokoji Temple on Bush Street back in 1960. And he started sitting, but he was the only one sitting. And because the Japanese people didn't sit, Japanese practice had become a kind of church practice.

[04:28]

like people go to church on Sunday. I don't want to criticize that practice. I think that there's a lot of merit in it. But Suzuki Roshi basically was interested in zazen and in the fundamental practices of Zen. And so he would sit by himself in They didn't have a zendo there. Sokoji Temple was an old synagogue, which had been sold to the Japanese congregation after the war. People came out of concentration camp in America, Japanese people, and put their money together and bought this old synagogue, and it became Sokoji Temple. So it didn't have a zendo. And so he used to sit zazen in the pews.

[05:37]

And he had the address of the place was in the phone book. And people around that time, in the early 60s, were kind of curious about Zen. And people had been to Japan. And some people had been in the armed forces in Japan and had touched on Zen in Japan. So people would call him up and say, is there any Zen around here that's compultant? He would say, well, I sit with Dazen every day at 545, I think it was, in the morning. and you're welcome to join me. So little by little, this group of people was sitting with him. And little by little, it expanded into the Zen center.

[06:49]

So there was two things going on at Sokoji. One was the Japanese congregation mostly people from Japan, not second-generation Japanese. The second-generation Japanese people were not so interested in the old ways. So most of the old people. And then the American group started to fill out the building there. Japanese carnivores, this always happened. Although many times they were not very happy, because most of the people that were coming were hippies. And they weren't very well dressed, and they had long hair, and bells on their toes, and rings on their toes, and bells on their ankles.

[07:52]

And sometimes they didn't wash for a couple of weeks. And there was a zibioshi. Every once in a while, after service, he would say, you should sometimes take a bath. And he would tell people what kind of deodorant he used. So, eventually, the American congregation grew much larger, to big, and was, little by little, the activity grew to, I mean, there were hundreds of people coming, you know, continuously, to Sokoji, and we were having sushis, and daily zazen, and lectures,

[08:57]

And not only filling up the room that we had, but we'd fill up the whole space. So eventually we had to buy another place, or buy a place. into that place and it was a big, it was very difficult for him because he was very dedicated to those people. And then he had to decide which side he was going to take on. There was no doubt that he had to go with us, but it was very difficult for him. So, background. Suzuki Roshi was an unusual priest.

[10:02]

And the reason that he was so successful, one reason why he was so successful, was that he made everybody feel like this was their thing. Not like he was bringing something from someplace and handing it to people and saying, this is what you should do. or you should be Japanese, or you should follow Japanese customs, or eventually we're going to turn you into a Japanese. He made everybody feel that because they were who they were, that the practice was theirs. And he was just helping everyone to do that. So everybody felt very safe with him, and very validated. And sometimes when the Japanese priests would come over, who were his superiors, they would criticize.

[11:14]

They'd say, what are you doing? What's going on here? They couldn't understand what he was doing. And I couldn't understand why they couldn't understand. I had a hard time understanding why. Why can't we understand? It's so obvious, all we're doing. But in Japan, there are very few places where really serious practice is going on. There are some training temples where where there's a practice, and lay people can also participate in that practice, but the basis of which is Zazen. A lot of temples in Japan have zendos, but nobody sits in them.

[12:21]

In the past, I think after the war, After the Second World War, people lost faith in Buddhism in Japan. A lot of people lost faith in Buddhism and the practice. Because, you know, Buddhism being a dominant religion along with Shinto, Of course, it did save them, but they didn't recognize that it saved them. It didn't save them because they didn't win the war. So a lot of people lost faith in Buddhism and stopped practicing. And the family temple, the temple's temple system during the Meiji period became family-oriented temples.

[13:28]

large congregations of families, but the temples became kind of trickish, which is not bad, but people stopped doing Zazen. The monks stopped doing Zazen. because he really wanted to perpetuate Zazen and to teach Dogon's way. So when he came to America, he saw this wonderful opportunity. It was a very good match between his understanding and his

[14:35]

come together with the Americans. So it was a real spark, and it lit, and it took off. But we never did have a relationship with the Japanese, because the teachers who came didn't want us to So all this time, maybe since 1960, we've had very little, in America, the American Zen has had very little interaction with the Japanese practice in Japan, or the Japanese hierarchy.

[16:15]

So in the Soto school, There's what is called the shumucho. Shumucho, shu means school, and shumucho is the administrative arm of the Soto school. They take care of the administration and they also take care of the foreign office, so to speak. They're supposed to oversee the various foreign practice places, but that's been almost non-existent. And it really sparked Zen in Europe, actually.

[17:24]

And he died several years ago. But Zen in Europe is still very strong. And there are many people, actually, from teachers, American teachers from America, who go to Europe, and especially Poland. by this huge carnivision. And the people are very poor in Poland, but they give their best hospitality. And also Germany, and France, and Italy, and Spain. So, the Santo sect is very aware of these people. And especially when Tetsu Maru, the teacher, died, his students, his teaching students, went to Japan to make a connection with the Japanese.

[18:34]

That kind of started them, the Japanese, thinking about what the relationship is, could be. So they started what they called Tokubetsu Sushi. And Tokubetsu Sesshin is a one-month practice period where the Shunrin-sho invites the teachers from the various countries to Japan to practice for a month together. And it happens every other year. Haragiri Roshi led it one time, and Maezumi Roshi led it yet another time, along with the Japanese priests from Japan. And I can never go to Tsushima because it always happens in the fall.

[19:43]

we're going to have to go to Tassavara to leave the practice grid. This is the time they like to do this. So we mentioned to them one time that it would be nice to have it in America sometime, at Tassavara. So they called us, or they sent us a letter, early in the year, I said, we're going to have a special Tokubetsu Sushin Tatsuharu this year. He said, OK. I kind of told him. This is kind of one of the things about Sotoshu is that they like to tell you what's happening. So we figured out when we could try to figure out when we could do this. They wanted to do a two-week Sushin. a two-week tokubetsu session as a kind of experiment to see how it would work in America.

[20:52]

And so we decided the only time we could really do this would be the first two weeks of the practice period. So they said, OK, it's very unusual to do this during a practice period. When you go to Japan, they have all these temples. And they just pick a temple and do it there. But we don't have a lot of temples sitting around. So we have to do it in a place where there's something always going on. So the practice period would be going on at the same time the Stogobetsu Sushi would be going on. And so we have to figure out how to improve the students, but how to also make the thing special for the people that are there. And I've been very... a lot of confusion in the planning and getting everything together. But it seems to be working. And the Japanese, a lot of them are already here. They'll be coming this weekend. And then we have to get them all down to Tassajara.

[21:54]

Some people wanted to come and go. They invited some people to come for a few days. And then we said, no, it's impossible to come pick people up from the airport and take them down for a couple days. Either they're there or they're not. So they agree to that. So it's going to be a lot of work, but I think it will be worth it. It will be very interesting to see how this goes. There will be people from Europe. So somebody asked me, well, why do you want to do this?

[23:11]

I thought that was a kind of interesting question. It's a good question. Why do you want to do this? I never had any doubt of why I wanted to do this. To me, it's not a question. And it started me thinking, well, why do I want to do this? And why do they want to do this? I think, first of all, just to meet and see who we are and where we are, I think it's comes out of our practicing together is enough. And then, secondarily, there's what is our relationship.

[24:19]

And a lot of people feel very skeptical about the Japanese church, so to speak, because I think this is a very good time to do this, because since 1960 we've been practicing, and our practice has matured to a point where it's very solid, even though many things have happened in the course of that time. There have been a lot of crises, but I think that who've come through all those crises very well. And we have confidence in our practice and in what we're doing.

[25:25]

So because we have that confidence, we can meet these people without being kind of bowled over or dazzled or put off. So my feeling is the best approach for me is to just be myself and just say what I think and do what I do and let them respond to me as they do. Because that's what they do. A lot of people think we should be very careful with Japanese because they have these kinds of customs and so forth. And I think that we should be very careful and mindful and thoughtful about other people's customs, just as they should be very careful, thoughtful, mindful about our customs.

[26:26]

And I feel that if everybody just themselves will bump into each other, and there'll be some funny incidents and some strange things going on, but it'll be very open and honest and we can deal with that. But if we try to pretend that things that we're hiding or we're not being straightforward or think that we should act in a certain way to save them, then people get very confused. beginning a relationship in which we're not swallowed up and they're not swallowed up. And they said that they wanted to meet us as peers, not as in some hierarchical way.

[27:37]

So I wanted to hold them to that. The practice in America, in many ways, has a lot of vitality, and a lot more vitality than in Japan, even though Japan has the background and machinery, so to speak, of practice. And years and years, centuries, of experience. But there's a certain vitality that we have here, which comes about through a kind of naivety, which is a very vital spark. And I think we need what they have, and they need what we have.

[28:44]

So I think there's something that each one of us has to give to the other. And that's what we need to find and play with. When I was in Japan, in Eheji, several years ago, the people told me, they said, And it's really wonderful to have people who have been influenced by this practice to come back to Japan. And he said because this helps vitalize and give confidence, rekindle confidence to people in Japan that this practice is very much alive. They have a word for it, but I can't remember what the word is.

[29:51]

It has to do with carrying back something that went out. So there have been a lot of misunderstandings and cautious positioning over the years. And hopefully we can get through that. Do you have any questions? Somebody was at Tassajara was saying people that are coming, that it's a meeting, and it's also for those who've had transmission before.

[30:58]

So how would this link to transmission? Is this like another step? Oh, yeah. That's a good point. In the past, the Japanese Sodo Shu really doesn't recognize ordination outside of Japan. In order to be really ordained or have Dharma transmission, it has to be done in Japan. And if you're a priest and you go to Japan, they go through a kind of ceremony of reordaining you in Japan at the Japanese temple. So there was a time when if a teacher who would ordain somebody in America wanted the student to go to Japan to do something, they would go through a charade of taking pictures

[32:22]

and say they were taken in Japan, just in order to say, well, this happened in Japan. We almost did that. But we said, we're going to do that. And somehow we never did have to do it. But I think that's changing. It's very hard to change the way the status quo. So rather than go through the impossible process of changing the way things are done, it's a well-known fact that you just go through a little act to get past that problem.

[33:28]

And everybody knows that that's what's happening. And then you don't have to change the laws, the way things go. But I think that's going to change. And that's one of the things I think that we're dealing with. We're recognized in a certain way. but officially we're not living in Mexico. Even though I've gone to Eheji, I had actually had Dharma transmission in Japan, and I went to Eheji and Soji-ji, the head temples, and did the ceremony of recognition called Suisei. But they want us to go to three Tokubetsu Shins after that. in order to be certified as a foreign teacher. Which is a nice idea.

[34:33]

It's not very hard to do. It's just something you do. But that's six years. Hope if you can do it every year, every other year. And if you can't, then you have to wait another every other year. So the process could be very long. He said, well, if you don't like that idea, what else would you like to do? So, I have to tell them what I think they should do as an alternative. What would that be? Well, it would be to just certify the people who have been practicing for 25 years and given their life to building up this practice. But not for us, for the people who are coming after.

[35:42]

If I did six years, I'd be 68 years old. us. We have our own practice, and we're doing fine. It's not necessary for us to have that, really. But in the realm of relationship, it's nice. It's nice to feel that we have So it's nice.

[36:46]

Well, you know, it's not necessary. I think most people in America don't really care about it at all. Could you say something about women and the Tokugetsu machines in Japan? Do women go to them? Well, we made sure that women were invited. We actually sent Captain Thanos last year. Do Japanese women come? It's really performance. And the only people that are there are the Japanese, are the teachers. So it's not the Japanese people, though. It's the other Japanese people that are the teachers. And so far no winner. But it would be good if they did. Because eventually, they probably will. Because of the pressure from us. She wasn't treated in the same way that a man was treated.

[37:48]

She felt there was a lot of subtle discrimination, which they didn't feel was discrimination. It was just a way of men treating women as second-class citizens. But I think with the pressure from us, that will change. They've already accepted. They didn't want to accept women at first, I think. And then they said, well, we want to accept women. So we have to say something. And they're open to doing something, even though it looks like they're closed. And if they're closed, we just knock on the door. But it's a long way from it being their way. And, you know, when my assistant, Vicky, has to do all the relating with shooting show, she was talking on the telephone back and forth to Japan all the time, trying to arrange everything.

[39:11]

And she almost had a nervous breakdown. They don't understand how they treat women, from our point of view. But I'm still trying to get to your point. What was your point again? How these people that are going are having to do with transmission, and is this anything to do with another step in transmission? They invite the people who've already had transmission. And sometimes those people can't go, so we send some other priest. Everybody that's gone from here has done the transmission.

[40:14]

Excuse me, is it open to other priests than it is? No, to other priests. They invite the people. They invite the people. It's not like, say they invite me, and I can't go. Yes. I have two questions, actually. One is that maybe it's not clear, but how in the practice period, which is for the students there, will the visiting people be participating in the practice period?

[41:26]

Well, see, that's, I think it would be, yeah, that's a good question. They said, well, we'll figure out who does all of the positions. And he said, well, there's a practice period going, and all the positions are already figured out. Because the practice period people were doing it. But during Tokubetsu Sushin, one of the things that has been done in the past is that the various teachers would come and do service every day. Each one would do service the way they do it. And to not try to change everybody to make some kind of standard, but just to acknowledge and to see how all this is done differently. It's impossible to make everybody do everything the same way.

[42:31]

As far as I've ever seen. This is Berkeley. That's San Francisco. Berkeley and San Francisco, even though we come from the same place, from the same teacher, and have the same It's pretty much the same, but there are a lot of differences. So, how it's going to be mixed up, I don't know. That's what we have to talk about. I guess, I'm not sure it's a question. It's an expression of a feeling that I've had for a long time, at least it's come up. Well, it's a real apprehension. suspicious of it, and it just occurred to me that it's a feeling of what it must have been like in the Church of England in terms of commies, and they're imposing these reforms on Africans and so on.

[43:37]

And then that becomes, eventually they get free. I just have that sense that there's been a kind of colonial attitude. Well, that's right. That's what we don't want. It sounds to me like everybody involved is aware of him that's been trying to work things out. But it's... Yeah, that's what we don't want as a preliminary setup. I mean, that's not... because that's not spiritual. No, that's right. That's right. Yes, thank you. Is there any evidence that our practice here is associated This practice, if you practice here and go to Japan, you may be able to fit in very well in the practice. But if you don't understand Japanese, you may... Their customs are different.

[44:46]

I think that this practice Is there some possibility that they won't feel that your practice here is authentic? They do already. Pardon me? They feel that it's authentic. Oh, they do? Yep. That's a great question. They do feel that it's authentic. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother. Do they speak English? Some. Most of them speak Japanese only. I mean, some of the Japanese would speak Japanese only. I don't know what the Europeans speak, but there's some people who speak English, and there's always translation. It adds to the confusion.

[45:49]

Well, it adds to the length. It adds to the confusion. The length of lectures. And so we didn't speak English. And so you have to do it in Japanese and you have to do it in English. So the lectures take twice as long. Just a comment, I was really unhappy just thinking that everyone was going to be sitting in conference. I was going to do all of this. That who is going to be sitting there then?

[46:52]

People at TASA are. Yeah. I was just sort of apprehensive and all stirred up just thinking about it. I was just thinking that it's really great that everyone will be sitting in conference. That's right. That's the main thing. And I was thinking that if nothing else, just shut our mouths and say, On that note, you spoke of wanting to preserve a sort of feeling of naturalness. A lot of leadership responsibilities are falling on you in this situation. Did you make any special preparation in the last few days in order to... I never make any special preparation. No, I don't want to fight.

[48:08]

It seems that now the Western sense is coming to terms with the religious establishment in Japan. I guess I'm wondering that at some point, Some of the cultures incorporate some of the religious practices of the countries. That's right. That's called assimilation.

[49:45]

Where Buddhism, wherever it goes, eventually incorporates the presiding deity gods. is because the Tibetans are now in exile in the diaspora, which the Jews have 2,000 years of experience with. And the Dalai Lama has been having these talks with Jewish scholars in order to wean some of their experiences.

[50:55]

Is there any local interaction with congregations, or leaders of congregations, and ministers, and rabbis? Occasionally something. Occasionally. There's the interfaith council. I used to have some. But it's not eye lining mostly. I don't do that anymore, but I did it a long time. Could someone do that? No one. But Dr. Abe, my son Abe, part of his practice now is Christian Buddhist dialogue.

[51:58]

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