Trudy Dixon, who helped me edit Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and who was a fellow student with Suzuki Roshi. Trudy Dixon, who helped me edit the lectures by Suzuki Roshi for Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and who was a student of Suzuki Roshi with me. She had this uncanny ability to be able to reconstruct a lecture word by word after she'd heard it. Almost like a tape recorder. And you could say to her, If there had been a Wednesday lecture and then a Saturday and Sunday lecture, you could say to her, could you reconstruct Wednesdays? And she still could do the Wednesdays. You can imagine the skill served her well in her university life.

[01:13]

So I was thinking maybe one of you could do that. Anyway, okay. Is there something you'd like to speak about? Yes. I would like to do a constellation about my inner world. Yours or your particular inner world? But you have to talk to the people who are in the head of the constellation process. It's okay with me. I don't know. Oh, I thought you applied for some job. The Zen constellator, you mean?

[02:13]

Yeah. Oh dear, I better watch what I say. I'll get jobs I'm not qualified for. I'm unemployed. Someone else wants to say something. You said that if a Zen teacher was also a psychotherapist, you would advise him to not do psychotherapy with his students.

[03:16]

And you said, I don't want to explain that more. I would really think it would be nice if you would explain that. I was afraid somebody would say that. not only would I expect such a person not to do psychotherapy with the people they practice with, I would probably expect in most cases, expect them not to do psychotherapy at all with anyone. I don't, but I'm not, I don't want to answer the question.

[04:39]

Why are you laughing? That's funny. That I don't want to answer? Oh, that you make the whole thing more extreme and then you go, that's funny. Yeah, I understand. I have a better question. Oh, dear. Oh, God. What's the difference between systemic family therapy and Zen Buddhism? You can answer that better than me. So what would you say is the difference? What would you say is the difference? Well, I'm not sure and I don't really know.

[05:52]

Yeah, I couldn't answer really that question. Your question I probably could struggle how to answer. But your question, I'd have to be a fly on the wall in your office for a month or two. Okay. Yes. Yes. I think I knew that you couldn't just answer that question. I am not a psychotherapist. I am not a psychotherapist. When I work with my clients, I do think there is some psychotherapeutic intervention going on.

[07:16]

Although I don't tell my clients, you know, I'm now working with you therapeutically or... And then the way I understand Zen Buddhism, my impression is that it aims at the same thing or aims at something similar. Oh, and then the For me it's hard to decide the question and also it's not clear why to even create a difference there.

[08:36]

Okay, let me keep that in mind. I mean, your question is underneath everything we've been doing for a couple of decades. Maybe we should continue to bump around in the dark without turning the light on. I don't know, I'm just talking. Okay, someone else? Isn't the difference in at least Externally, what motivates the client and what motivates the practitioner?

[09:54]

Probably so. On the one hand, you have a clear goal in therapy. You want to change something. Yes. And in meditation it's more about gaining an understanding in a more general sense and not so specifically. Yeah, there's that kind of difference, yeah. I mean, those of you who've been doing this, like you, Guni, who've said nothing so far, and me, you're holding up the pillar, I see, but... I mean, luckily... But Guni or anyone, we've been doing this together for a lot of years.

[11:15]

So in a way, you know more about both than I do. Or Ulrike. Or would I, for example... But I don't, I mean, we're here for some reason that because there's a difference, otherwise you'd be at some psychotherapeutic conference. So how would anyone who can volunteer to answer Mikhail's question? I would like to try to answer a volunteer, a volunteer Michael's question.

[12:19]

Yes, go ahead. I now notice that the teaching of the Buddha is originally about liberation from suffering, actually not liberation from us. I'm reminded that Buddhist teaching really is initially about liberation from suffering and not so much enlightenment. And the goal in psychotherapy is a similar one. The Indian... Ayurvedic, is that the way you say it in English? Medicine? Ayurvedic medicine? Ayurvedic, yeah. Was carried by Buddhism since, you were saying, since the 5th century?

[13:24]

I think, yeah. Or, you know, I think something like that. So it's... And so these two have the same or very similar intentions. And the second thing from this morning that I'm remembering, from this state From the minds of aliveness, immediacy and connectedness, or non-otherness. And an important reference point is to go to these points of deadness and stagnation and to cope with it.

[14:53]

And this is also an important topic for psychotherapy before or independent of the meeting with Buddhism in trauma work? Not really, because Fritz Bell also has stolen from the same Buddhism, but more or less independent. Yeah, I knew Fritz Perls, you know. And he said, I introduced him to Suzuki Roshi. I didn't know him real well, but next time I saw Fritz at Esalen. He said, you know, I'm the Zen master of Esalen. Yeah. Robert? I think there's a a number of differences between a Zen practice and psychotherapy. One of the things that I notice in my own practice is that psychotherapy is geared towards solving a problem.

[16:08]

Or do you solve a situation? In a Zen practice, and that the emphasis of the Zen practice is on this brewing and the acceptance of what is happening. One is not, in this sense, goal-oriented. Another difference that I am aware of, and this is perhaps part of the difference I want to do psychotherapy with my students, That my understanding, the concept of relationships within Zen practice are very different than within the psychotherapeutic community. I completely agree with keeping Zen practice separate from the psychotherapeutic in that sense.

[17:15]

I agree that one should keep the Zen practice and psychotherapy separate. And the third difference is the emphasis in the Zen practice on the Zazen meditation and mindfulness. And I have not found anything in the psychotherapeutic background that's comparable to Zazen practice. There are some exercises or some similarities to mindfulness practice but not to Zazen practice. And the The mindfulness practice is something that's useful in the psychotherapeutic.

[18:31]

The problem that I'm in the relationship with Zazen practice is not compatible for, as far as I can experience it, for both situations, whether it's a very beautiful life. And to do Zazen practice is different than to do Zazen practice with people who are in a non-psychophilic relationship. That's very difficult for me to understand. Yes, go ahead. On my part, it doesn't work too easily. But I do think there are a number of people in this group that find that I wouldn't say they... I don't know enough.

[19:59]

I wouldn't say they mix the two, but I'd say they can find ways to transfer aspects of Zen practice or Zen way of thinking into the way of thinking of... But I think there are people in this group who notice that they can use aspects of Zen practice for their therapeutic work and transfer them into the field. But I would just say that this is exactly what interests me in this direction. That is, I feel like, yesterday I described it a little bit, like from behind, from the back, from the practice and also individual elements that I feel held by practice sort of from behind, so it's going mostly from this direction toward my therapeutic work, but not the other way around.

[21:10]

If I look closely, there are elements like, for example, in a period of sitting, this work with parts. similar to how you described that you have the scene of a populated space, that this work with inner parts, similar to what you called hungry ghosts, That I can give those inner parts in this inner seeing what they always needed. This is a kind of therapeutic approach I use.

[22:31]

This is actually the only place where it's much more practice towards work. OK. Thanks. Does anybody have to translate what you said just now? OK. Yes. When you are a teacher and you have students and you notice that they get stuck, Do you have some sense of intervention, an image of getting things moving? It seems that could be a connection, some sense of getting the ball rolling.

[23:46]

Yeah, of course. And by the way, I fairly often suggest that a practitioner see an intervention being a psychotherapeutic one and they go see a psychotherapist. I think it was a mistake in the 60s and 70s, in the States at least, for a lot of Buddhists to think, oh, Buddhism now, we don't need psychology, we've got Buddhism. I think it's significantly different enough that they both have a place. But what kind of intervention would I suggest?

[24:57]

Yeah, I don't know. All kinds of possibilities. But one thing I would do as a Zen teacher, which I wouldn't do if I was a therapist, I might try to make it worse for the person. I might find the situation that really drives them nuts and put them in that twice, twice as much. Because my assumption as a Zen teacher has to be they're strong enough to do this. If they're not strong enough to do this, they should leave and come back when they're strong enough.

[26:09]

So that's, I think, a different approach than a therapist's approach. Someone else? Yes? I just asked myself why this question is getting on my nerves when this question comes up about Buddhism and psychotherapy. It always gets in your nerves or just now? I don't know now. Now I noticed. And my impression is that The question would be deeper, maybe more significant, if it was what is a person identified with, a person who is seeking therapy.

[27:30]

Exactly. I have often noticed that patients tell me that they look at it and see which value system they have. After that, they also look for therapists, and many do that. I have found in my work that clients seem to look for therapists by looking to the values that a person has. The values the therapist has. Or they're looking for a therapist who is the least judgmental. One reason I'm coming here is that I'm finding this room is free of predetermined values where you can talk.

[28:31]

This room or this seminar? This field where you can talk in an experimental way. Yes, Guni? I think it's interesting how you, Ravi, see these differences and also say that the two fields should be kept apart. I also first approached it in a way where I thought my work as a therapist has nothing to do with the Zen practice. But I've noticed that it sort of flows into the work simply because my posture changed, it changes.

[30:00]

Your mental posture, your physical posture? Okay. And in trauma? therapy or trauma work there are certain tools like you know that are introduced like working with witness with mindfulness or acceptance

[31:01]

And then it's not really possible for me anymore to keep the two apart. And in no way I have any missionary intentions as a missionary. But then it happens that there are people who find a certain kind of access and they want to start sitting. And then they start sitting? Yeah. By the way, a couple of times, at least a couple of times, I can't remember exactly, but over the years, there's been persons who couldn't make practice work, particularly in a sangha, and they were in various kinds of psychological trouble.

[32:23]

And I asked you, Angela, to see them. And you helped a lot more than I could have. Thanks. Yeah. And it's partly the reason you could is because you have a different relationship with them. You're able to have a different relationship with them as a therapist. Okay. Guni, you were going to say something? Yes. Yeah, from my point of view, I think there's a real big difference. Yeah, also a big difference. And it's mostly based in the intention with which people come to me compared to the intentions that lead to a spiritual practice.

[33:48]

And I would never say that I am accompanying somebody on their path of spiritual practice. Even if a lot through sitting practice has changed for myself or in myself, and yes that does flow into my work, And also the methods can be similar. But I would think that People who do a spiritual practice have a different kind of dedication.

[35:11]

Yeah, OK. Yeah, and they're doing it long term with a vow that lasts maybe for their whole life. And that's simply not the case with our clients. And I think that makes a huge difference. Yeah. I was imagining some people would make such a... Sometimes. Ulrike? Yeah. Yeah. What made me curious is, I don't quite know where that question is leading, but it made me curious how you said you're sort of turning up the heat, you're making the problem worse.

[36:27]

How do you gauge, how do you make this choice between sending somebody to therapy or turning up the heat? Is there also a therapeutic way of looking at, I assume, the person, the situation? Where do you find your guidelines for that kind of decision? I have the feeling I know.

[37:36]

And that's partly based on experience, of course. And because of experience I trust my feeling of knowing more than I might have years ago. Yeah. Maybe after the break I can try to say something. And maybe before the break I'll say a couple of things. I mean in a simple sense I'm asking of practitioners to be, first of all, concerned with the human condition, not their condition. And I don't know if that makes sense to you, but let's just say, I'll say that much so far.

[38:50]

And second, I cry to know nothing about the person. Sometimes I find out the person's name. But it's about as much as I want to know. At some point I'll find out someone has brothers or sisters or... but really I want to know as little as possible. If people try to tell me something about their history, I really either don't listen or I kind of Try to change the subject. I want to be solely dependent on the immediate situation. Okay. And to the degree to which I'm trying to... help anyone.

[40:13]

But help is a kind of limited word here. The degree to which I'm trying to work with a person I'm trying to work with world views. Zen basically assumes if you can get a person's world view in tune with how we actually exist, And you can do a simple thing like not identify with consciousness anymore.

[41:18]

It changes your psychology. It changes your everything. I mean, I see the problems I can't solve. I see the problems I can't solve. So I try to change them into problems I can solve. Does that make sense? And I used the word earlier this morning in our talking this morning of how essential it is to locate yourself in immediacy. Yeah, I said quite a bit about that.

[42:32]

But I also said how to validate your life, your experience. These two things are essential. So if I'm working with, practicing with somebody, I'm practicing with finding out, getting them to notice where they locate themselves. And I'm also asking them what they find true or satisfying. And more... pointedly, I'm asking them to validate, to notice how they validate their experience.

[43:48]

And in the end, I could only... I could only work with somebody, practice with someone as a part of this lineage. If they validate their experience through zazen. Or they validate their, discover their identity, location, through the second truth, not the first.

[45:00]

Let me try to put it in very simple terms. experiential terms. If you do zazen, incubate your life in zazen, and you sit regularly, you will notice that you make somewhat different decisions or significantly different decisions in zazen than you do in ordinary consciousness. To put it simply, the adept practitioner does not define him or herself through consciousness. The adept practitioner defines himself through the mind of zazen or awareness.

[46:12]

And if I put it dramatically, they do that at the cost of their life. Nothing else has a priority anywhere close to that. Except if you're a family man and have children. Or a family woman and have children. That was a tradition while there was a tradition in India that you didn't really make that commitment until you were 35 or 40. I mean, when Suzuki Roshi was, during the Second World War, he was told he had to serve the military in South Africa.

[47:36]

Not in the military, but serve. They had to bring their bells to be melted down for war things. And he was supposed to take off his robes and get a job and work. And he simply said, I'd rather die than make this choice. And he simply said, I'd rather die than agree to it. And they said, you won't be fed. You won't have money. People will not relate to you. And he said, I'll find a way to live somehow. And the local people hid rice in the forest near him, which he would go out and find. Probably similar stories in Europe during the war.

[48:50]

Yeah, but anyway... This is not the way you treat clients as a psychotherapist. I mean, you're working with clients partly because they're defining their life through consciousness. And they have problems like they lost their job or they can't do this or that. This is inconsequential for a practitioner. And if it's consequential, your worldview is screwed up. If it's consequential as a simple practical matter and the job is a role, then you're not so worried about losing your job anyway.

[50:06]

You can work as a waiter or I don't know what. So now we've created kind of extreme on the spectrum. And it doesn't have to be so extreme. But there's an implication of that in practice. And it's really about, to put it in simpler terms, how you identify yourself. The you, as I said in the last seminar, if I say to you, you, I'm pointing to you. The word you It looks like I'm pointing to you.

[51:24]

But I'm really pointing, by pointing to you, I'm pointing to the socially formed you. For most of us, who we think we are belongs to others. How can you find the you that doesn't belong to anyone else? So that's the dynamic of Buddhist practice, to find the you that doesn't belong to anyone else, but the therapist is trying to work with the you that belongs to others. And I've done psychotherapies and I've found it very helpful. So I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's just I'm pointing out they're different.

[52:31]

Yeah. Sorry, sorry to get so serious. Anyway, let's see what happens next.

[52:53]

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