Well, Rick, have you had something you wanted to say? Well, we actually discussed this in our lunch break with a rather large group of people, so maybe Angela, Norbert, you can support me. Do you think you need support? I don't remember everything. Oh, okay. Fill in. I added something at the end of our morning session to Roshi and he asked me to say it again. Maybe, Katrin, you translate me because it's easier to remain in one language. Okay, which language? I find that very true. I just said to Hoshi after our morning session how much I noticed that working with memories in Sechin is different than outside. Ulrike mentioned to Rashi just before lunch that when sitting a seven-day Sesshin, the work or the experience of memories coming up is quite different from the usual experience.

[01:20]

And in the first Sesshin, it was especially and especially in my first sessions it was it had a lot of power how I came into in a kind of sensorium and how I experienced continuity in this sensorium and when then memories came up they changed Also my experience is that it is very compatible with my practice to find that memories change.

[02:26]

In the discussion during the lunch break, Angela added some useful comments or additions. She's been waiting 13 years. They haven't seen each other for 13 years yet. So I find it interesting when I have more time to meditate. Then it seems as if memories or images are on different levels, and when there's more time for meditation, images can come up, which then call up more images.

[04:00]

and when that happens I feel very grateful and I don't want to interrupt the meditation process. When that happens I feel very grateful and don't want to interrupt this meditation process, but before it all starts there is some fear. And for my clients, I can add, I very often experience in my practice, and this is what I just noticed, that when I work with patients or when I see my mother, it is also very clear that many people are afraid to be with themselves for five minutes. So in my work with clients, but also say when I meet my mother, I notice that many people are very afraid to be just by themselves if only for five minutes.

[05:09]

Is your mother like that? Is that what you mean? So people try to occupy themselves with something, and her mother, if she has just five minutes with nothing to do, she starts doing a crossword puzzle. Um zu vermeiden, dass irgendetwas in ihr kommt. To avoid that maybe memories come up. You think she's avoiding memories or just avoiding feelings? Yeah. Also meinst du, dass sie Erinnerungen vermeiden möchte oder eben vielleicht einfach nicht mit sich selber sagen kann? It's mixed. I mean, she says so or you feel so? She cannot talk about it. This is again the difference to my clients, where I experience that they say, so yesterday there were a lot of them here who are really researching exactly at this point, which is very exciting.

[06:32]

So a mother cannot talk about it, but that's a difference to her clients who can talk about it or are just at the point where they begin to be able to talk about it. I find it very exciting to research at this point. And it's very interesting to explore together what comes up. Norman, were you part of this discussion too? My addition was and is that I differentiate between truth and reality. So reality is something which has an effect and truth is what is really true. And in my work with clients, there with memories and images that come up, I work with what the client or patient feels is true, no matter whether it's proved or not.

[08:01]

Feels is real, whether it's true or not. Okay, so you feel that it really is, no matter if it is true or not. There are also so-called returning words in trauma therapy, that you check your self-descriptions, whether someone perceives it as true or not. In trauma therapy, one kind of tests whether a person who tells something experiences it as real or as true. True. As true. How can you tell the difference? Wie kannst du das verstehen? Feel. So unfeel. Ja. Nur durch Gefühl. Ja. Gerade. You were part of this coffee clutch? Soup clutch.

[09:03]

I described a situation that I experienced with Gisela. Gisela is my wife and we had a fight. we had a dispute. In German we have a phrase which kind of says like one thing leads to the other, to the next. Does that mean that I know exactly how I react and how it goes on? And in the dispute, I know relatively well how it works and how it kind of continues or will continue.

[10:16]

And I know how my partner will react. So both you and Gisela know how it will continue. And in this one dispute I noticed it so very clearly and I was really shocked that I knew how it would continue and how it would end. So I wanted to say the next sentence and could already feel how Gisela wanted to give the appropriate answer. I just didn't say this sentence. and I could feel how I was about to say the next sentence and I could also feel how Gisela was about to react and I did not say the sentence. You stopped playing the game. And there was a long pause

[11:18]

And we decided to go to different rooms for a while because we didn't know what to do. And later we talked about this. And since then our disputes are different. They start in different rooms. We only have disputes about something that is here right now in this situation. And we do not bring into it old stuff from way before. And both of our positions have become much clearer what our position is in this situation.

[12:28]

And very often it's the case that they are very contradictory, but they just bear that. And when the position or each position has become clear, then we've begun not to insist on this position so much anymore. And so it means that the past and old narratives do not come into the present situation so much anymore. So Ulrike started with how Sashin enriches her memory, and you're having fights with your spouse in which you have to cut off memory.

[13:51]

Why not rehash all this? I would like to add that the images of the past are good for seeing them in a new light. Just from the presence. And I think that this is an important therapeutic work, to see it as a real experience, as a contemporary experience, and what one does not alone, but together. And I find that this experience of past images in a new light is very important therapeutic work.

[15:06]

And it's important that one doesn't do it by oneself, but together with a therapist. Because doing it with someone else allows a new perspective to be sustained? because it helps to keep the new perspective together with the other. And because often the experience was a traumatic experience of being alone. And because very often the negative or traumatic experience in the past had to do with being totally alone in it. Yeah, I've noticed. I remember. Next week. Next week. Now, when you speak about memories, Are you thinking of images or particular events or stories or things that were said?

[16:31]

What constitutes a memory? Usually in memory, also for me, in German, a memory begins with an event. For me, mostly, a memory starts with something that happened. And there are associative And then associative images and feelings arise. And what I noticed is that very often original happening is not that important anymore. But the dynamic playing together of images and feelings or associations that is important.

[17:34]

And also through practice I've noticed that myself is kind of fluid. And in the same way I experience it with associative fields that surround memories. And in that way I can agree with Gerald that now I insist much less on certain things having happened. And that has a great effect on my surroundings. It's a relief for me. Yes, and I would like to say something to you, and I find it very interesting, these thoughts, which are memories, also with therapy and Sechin and these differences.

[19:18]

I find it very interesting what all of you have said about Sechins and memories and therapeutic work. And I would like to talk about therapeutic work, I would like to add to therapeutic work. I originally come from trauma therapy. Memorized feelings. Which are triggered through something. These are mainly body reactions. are primarily bodily reactions. And there is a very good book about it.

[20:21]

The body remembers. And one says that the body doesn't mind, the nervous system doesn't mind whether it was yesterday or today. and therefore it is good or important to kind of check with the present. And what Angela said about the personal exploration. So in opposition to the therapeutic work, the personal exploration, In contrast or in opposition?

[21:37]

Additionally, like both perspectives. To see the both therapeutic work. And then to notice how the perspective changes. and one looks at memories differently. Okay. Yes. I would like to talk about something from Rastenberg. You talked about perception. and the inner images which stay and then go away again. I would say it's good that when one doesn't need them anymore that one lets them go.

[22:40]

And then we did a constellation. And in this constellation, it was for me about those images that do not go, so like memories. And for me it was very helpful, so to speak, a solution that everything can be So for me it was very helpful and a kind of solution that everything can be, is allowed to be. And the task for me is to give the different things, say memories, in my field the right location. I think that when one remembers something, it implies or at the same time is present that I'm aware that now in the present I'm remembering.

[24:15]

In contrast to a traumatic flashback. In German one doesn't just say, I remember, but when the expression is reflexive one says, I remember myself. So a memory implies automatically that it is a memory, that one is aware of that. Otherwise one doesn't call it memory. You call it, what do you call it then? A traumatic flashback. Yeah, flashback. It's a kind of memory without distance, without knowing. You think it's real in this moment.

[25:36]

So it doesn't feel like it was in the past. It feels like it's in the present. Okay. That sounded like it was in the present to me. No. Could you close it maybe? It's nice, but... This was cut when she said that we should... Close the window. I remember. Do you remember? I know, but she isn't here, so I opened it. Who else wants to join this clutch? Lately in my personal exploration I've also dealt with memories and with different kinds of memories. And like first comes or mostly it's a narrative.

[26:48]

It's a memory, it's a narrative. You mean a story comes along with it or it is the story? Yeah. And for me, especially in the Zen practice the question came up, when is the time or the point where I can let it go? Can I will it? Can I decide to do it? Or is that not possible? In this exploration what I also found are memories that are more in the body And memories which are completely in the body.

[28:02]

And then also I came upon structures that in the therapy we call the inner child, say the inner five-year-old or the inner 15-year-old. I have an inner 75-year-old. I have a child of 75 years. Go ahead. And what I found is I cannot always with my will let go certain things, but what I can do is repeatedly cut off narratives. But what needs to be worked through comes up again and again.

[29:18]

The thought that just came to me now is that I think I have to make various kinds of memories very much verbal until I can let them go as a narrative. And the thought that has come to me now is that I need to put many memories into words so as a prerequisite that I can let them go. But there is some doubt whether that is really the case or necessarily the case. Maybe it's possible to just with the body let go of memories.

[30:22]

Anything that works. You have to try all the different, and I think for some people one thing works better than another, etc. But being able to explore those things and try out ways to deal with it is practice. Sometimes it helps to reframe it. Like as if it had happened to someone else, or you tell it differently, or you tell it from another point of view to yourself. Kita, you were going to say something a few minutes ago. I'm not sure if it's the right time, but I will try.

[31:30]

So I've been occupied with a point where I wish you'd say a little bit more about it. Continuity and that is a temporal continuity or discontinuity or discontinuity or shift. And what it has to do with the self and I'll give an example. So, say I sit zazen for half an hour and then I find, oh, I just said what happened.

[32:31]

You sit Sazen for half an hour and then what? Not quite true. You sit, it's the first moment, you sit down, and you know now it will go. Es geht nun eine halbe Stunde. So you sit down and start meditation and you know it will go on for half an hour? Yeah. Und dann hörst du den Gong am Schluss. Okay, and then you hear the bell. Yes, and you wake up and think. You must have taken propolis. Nothing, I just made a bed. So it seemed as if he just sat down and the bell rang and he can't believe that half an hour has gone. I don't know that suddenly one knows things beforehand, so you start something, something falls, your hand is already going to catch it, but actually you didn't know that it was falling, do you understand?

[34:03]

Okay. Where breaks in time arise. Okay, so it's a kind of shift or interruptions in time. Another example you just said was like something falls down and, I mean, before you even really know that something is falling down, your hand has already reached out to catch it. Yeah. I understand. It's interesting that somehow Zazen can slow down time and sometimes it feels like it speeds up time or you have no sense of the time having passed. Or the time passed outside your consciousness. So instead of the time passing like this, it did pass like this, but that's what you experienced.

[35:17]

You follow that? This is the beginning of zazen. This is the end of zazen. And that was what happened, but what you experienced was that. That makes sense? The two points are together, but you didn't experience this. But anyway, okay. As if there were no time. As if there were no time, yeah. You gave another example, too. What was it? That was when something falls. Oh, yeah.

[36:19]

You catch it before you really notice something. No, I have that experience all the time. I'm a clumsy guy, you know. And I used to drop things, etc. And I noticed very early, after I'd started Zazen, I'd drop something in my hand and follow it down and catch it. It's clear that didn't happen to me before zazen. It happened to me after I started doing zazen. As if there's a bodily relationship to the world that's happening outside of consciousness. And I think that is the case, in fact. Someone else want to join this conversation? Yes. Two things. Okay. Memories. A memory of a line in a book. is for me a memory that is not necessarily tied to something that happened, only tied to a feeling.

[37:50]

And the second? This morning you mentioned the non-interfering observing consciousness. I have situations when I dream I experience situations when I'm dreaming that I know that I'm dreaming and that I follow what happens like an observer who cannot interfere. So I observe what happens and I only notice the feeling I have.

[39:17]

For example darkness or sadness or love or something. I'd ask myself now whether in this way I can also practice this non-interfering observing consciousness. Sure. Yeah. Okay, I think that we should probably have a break shortly, but let me say a couple things so that we can... I think we should take a break now, but I would like to say two things first, so that afterwards we can concentrate on whatever we want. I don't know if it is possible to do this without stopping for too long.

[40:18]

I would like to know briefly, in self-study, in this list, She would like to know very shortly if it doesn't interrupt things here when she looks at the list as a means of self exploration where number 10, Mastery and Transformation, comes in, or how it comes in? Yeah, I think that next year. Let's have a break, and I will speak after.

[41:18]

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