I wanted to ask you, what is the Berlin Sangha for you? What importance has this Sangha for you? Well, I mean, really we have a German sangha, not just a Berlin sangha. But I like Berlin as a city very much, and it seems to be a... I don't know when it was built. It's a fairly new city in Germany, so it has kind of big spaces and a bit of funkiness like American cities. And it's also, I guess, must be the biggest city in Germany. So I'm used to big cities, so it feels nice. But the sense of a German sangha and... I mean, I feel that Germans like Americans have not, because of the recent history, they don't have much past. It's hard for Germans to look back into the past, and Americans don't have a past to look back into. So both Americans and Germans I find quite open to practice, to trying out things, trying out other ways of... being and living more so than i find in myself other european cities but not more so than eastern european but more so than other western european countries i also find that the germans as a whole have a you know

[01:14]

a kind of friendliness among each other, which in some countries, you know, the smart ones in a seminar will take over and soon do all the talking, etc. In Germany, there's a feeling of everybody working together and coming to some... supporting each other in practicing. And that's, you know, I think it's the reason why the Dharma Sangha has our centers and groups have developed in Germany in Switzerland, Austria, and Germany, but primarily in Germany. And what is the use of a sangha? Well, the Sangha means everyone, all people, in the sense that we recognize each of us, as I said today in the seminar, is a share of the whole, not just a part, not just a separate individual, but we're all shares of one whole. And also, but in specific, the Sangha means those people who support you in your practice, who share a common vision,

[02:19]

and those people who help you free yourself enough from society to practice and help you communicate practice and understanding within society. And also, Sangha is... for me, wonderful, because I get to spend time with and practice with people who I wouldn't know otherwise, because in the Sangha you don't just know people you'd normally be friends with. So I know a lot of people, practice with people, that there's no other way. We come together through practice rather than through common friendships or jobs or something like that. So it's a very satisfying way of being with people, I find. Can you define the difference between the Zen and other Buddhist practices? Well, you know, Zen...

[03:22]

I guess you could say, I won't describe other practices, but in contrast to the other schools, Zen, Chinese Zen, really, it's a development of Chinese culture and civilization in relationship to Indian Buddhism. And Zen is an attempt to bring the various schools of Buddhism, myobichara, majjamaka, and so forth, together in a direct practice and together in a way through particularly meditation practice. So meditation is very emphasized. And it was one of the main ways, the Chinese and perhaps the most unique way, Chinese tried to make Indian Buddhism their own by this very strong emphasis on meditation in a very specific way with attention to the posture and so forth. And also Zen has developed a coming into the already highly developed urban and literate culture in China.

[04:31]

It developed a way in which it would could enter into the cultural life of people and to make use of the culture they already had. So it emphasizes this turning phrases, turning words or direct practice phrases that are mantra-like phrases. It can come from your life, what's going on with your job or spouse or something, but also can come from the teachings. in how you use a phrase to turn your life and to turn your practice. And this is also unique to and characteristic of Zen practice. And the last thing I could say, I guess, is that Zen tries to be as much as possible an unguided, unstructured form of meditation. So the emphasis is on the posture as your structure, not your mind or what you do while you practice. As much as possible, you're trying to let yourself, abandon yourself to your practice, to your sitting, and allow thoughts and the structures of mind to disappear until you can re-come at them again through their source.

[05:46]

And there is an aim in meditation. What is the aim? Well, the aim is really no aim. I mean, the aim is to see if you can be free of aims, free of your mental structures, free of your habits of thinking in terms of past, present, and future, and then discover, if there is an aim, discover in the wisdom of the body itself, the wisdom of the phenomenal world itself, and the deeper wisdom in yourself, which is not mental. If there's an aim, then there is. If there isn't, but the aim in Zen practice is to get there, whatever that is, through no aim, through freedom from aims. But there is the aim of erleuchtung, of samadhi. No, no. If you have an aim towards samadhi, you probably won't experience samadhi. Samadhi will occur mostly when you... Samadhi is the opposite of an aim.

[06:49]

So it's one of those things, through seeking salvation, through being free of salvation, you may find salvation, but not through seeking salvation. It's that kind of idea. And it is true, because... As soon as you think, oh, I'm sitting well, you've lost your sitting. At least for a beginner. Mitgefühl is compassion. And compassion is an aim of meditation or of Buddhism, no? Isn't it? Well, it's an aim of Buddhism, yes, of course. But again, in Zen practice, compassion is come to through realizing our interdependence, our interrelationship, our interconnectedness with others and with the world. And so it's not so much a moral value, though it is that too, but in a deeper sense, in real compassion, it's just a recognition of that's how we exist.

[07:55]

You said the connectedness with the world? Compassion is an expression of how we exist with each other. In fact, how we exist with each other. And not something we try to catch? Yeah, not something we try to catch. You said the connectedness with the world, but there was a question of somebody who was afraid to be disconnected from the world and from communication by meditation. And often people are told, oh, you retire from the world and from others, and that's not politically correct, etc., Well, as I said, we have this idea that you staring at your navel or you're meditating and not out helping people. But, you know, as I said, the world can spare you for 30 or 40 minutes. And certainly when you're out having a beer, nobody scolds you for not saving the world.

[09:00]

So really it's a fear of experiences and a beingness which isn't necessarily shared with others. It's a fear of unshareable experience. And yet in Buddhism and in meditation practice, you have to have the courage to enter into unshareable experience. And through that unshareableness, we actually share many things, but it's more than intuitive in a deep level. I think you are the first teacher I ever heard who emphasized on the pleasure of meditation. And I like that very much. Perhaps you can say what is this pleasure of meditation and sitting for you? Well, I think other Thich Nhat Hanh emphasize it. I mean, if you're not going to enjoy your life, who is? So, I mean, as Thich Nhat Hanh says, a happy monk, an unhappy monk is not a monk at all.

[10:02]

So, I mean, there's no other way we can really recognize our life, accept through and discover our life, except through how it nourishes us and what kind of joy and pleasure we take in this world. But can you describe this pleasure of sitting, which is this pleasure for you? Well, we can say that our basic aliveness is in itself joy. And if it's not, then there's some block or obstruction or boredom or something. But it appears as just an overflowing of gratefulness. We say non-referential joy or happiness. For some reason, nothing's happened. There's been no special Christmas present or something. You just... you feel gratitude, you feel joy, and it just comes up for no reason, and from your aliveness itself.

[11:04]

And it comes up on your breath and on your looking at things, and just how we exist. You mentioned the word boredom or annoyance. Often meditation goes along with this boredom. What's that? You have to, as I say, you have to get through the boredom barrier, and that's partly just that we don't know how to open ourselves to ourselves and to our freedom from self. And so, because of that, we just seem to face this wall. But also this wall is put up there by our ego, which is threatened by meditation, because meditation moves us beyond the structures of ego and the small, as I say, ship of the self, which is too small for our whole existence. So anyway, at some point, if you have enough faith and confidence and commitment to practice, faith and practice, at some point this boredom just gives up, the ego gives up and says, okay, I'll cooperate.

[12:14]

And you just find your own aliveness deeply satisfying. You talked about these states of mind that you can get by LSD or by psychedelic, these extraordinary states of mind, and you get them by meditation. Do you think something is better than the other? Somebody will take pills or smoke and somebody takes meditation. Is it on the same level for you? Well, I can't make such comparisons. I can't make comparisons to anybody's practices. It's not something I do. I have no interest in drugs and LSD and so forth. I mean, I've studied it, and I've observed it, and many of my friends have taken it, and I did do the LSD conference. And whether these experiences are comparable or there's places where some people have been where I haven't been, I don't know.

[13:21]

I don't care. I'm not interested in extraordinary experiences. My ordinary experience is extraordinary enough. And the world itself is a miracle. The mystery of our world and our mind is not something we can have a point of view outside. We're inside it. But the problem with psychedelics and so forth from the point of view of meditation is that when you have the desire to change your state of mind, you already have limited your state of mind. you're not working with its full possibilities. So instead of trying to change your state of mind into something better, you try to find with your own subtlety what is here right now. And I think what psychedelics tend to do is they tend to give a person a very strong experience in a certain area.

[14:23]

And often people who've taken psychedelics get into meditation quicker than other people, at least for the first year or two. But then they, if they're taking a lot, their meditation experience tends to follow the grooves that this, these psychedelics, these stronger, strong drugs have made. And it actually, my observation is it limits their development in practice after a couple years often. Not for everyone, but often it does. Okay. Would you like to add something? No. No? It's okay? Okay. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Is that what you wanted? Yes. Is that okay? It's okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Is it? Yeah. All right. So you'll translate what I say into German for this magazine?

[15:32]

I suppose I have to translate it into German. Oh, you agreed to do it for her? I agreed to do it instead of Neil, because he has to go someplace with her. No, but this is her... You're just making a copy for us. Right. She's making her... But this is her interview with you. But since her English is not good enough, I have to translate it. But they don't have someone at the newspaper magazine who can do it? She thinks yes. Okay, well, then that means you don't have to do it. But if you want to do it... I would stay and try if I can help, if she has problems expressing herself in English. But it's better for me... Just to speak in English. Yes, but... Oh, you're going to translate it into German now? Yeah. Oh, I see. And then you'll record her German. Yes, she records everything, both the English and the German. But I would also like to do... One second. But I'd also like to be able to look at it before you publish it.

[16:35]

He would also like to see it before you publish it. So that he simply knows what will be published. Is that okay? Can we do it over us? Yes, okay. It makes me happy. Ciao. Ciao. First of all, I'd like to thank you that you're willing to be interviewed. Oh, you're welcome. And I'm very nervous at the moment. Because it is my very first interview I'm doing. First of all, I have a few questions to your person. When and how did you get into Zen Buddhism? Well, I started reading about it when I was 18 or 19 or 20 and reading particularly Ezra Pound's poetry and various senses of Asia that came through to me when I was in college and other things.

[18:02]

And at some point reading a lot and looking at philosophy and literature and other religions, Buddhism just made sense to me and so I got interested at that point. Oh, I'm sorry you had to say so long. Yeah, I forgot you were translating. We were just making a tape. Maybe you can listen. Why don't we do this? You listen to the tape later and translate it. Is that all right? Can you do that? Yeah. Because that's easier for me to... Yeah, also it's easier for me since I'm translating from German into English and to switch back and forth. So let me just speak in English and then... Of course she doesn't know really what I've said, but I can say then, to answer the question more thoroughly... I think also certain experiences and feelings and ideas I had, which really go back into probably New England transcendentalism and my own experiences of writing poetry and things, also were a kind of background that led me into Zen.

[19:19]

But I didn't actually meet my teacher till I was 25, and I went to California, but I went to California with the feeling of hoping to meet a teacher. And so I got into Zen first by a kind of feeling, experiential level, and then through poetry and philosophy and study in college, and then finally through my teacher when I was 25. He was also present at the Trafka-Vision Festival. He is now very present here. I just wanted to know what kind of opening and wishes he has for the university. I think she first met you a couple of years ago at another festival, The Power of Visions or something. And now you took part in this Peace University. And she would like to know what your hopes and maybe wishes are.

[20:27]

I mean, why you took part in the Peace University and Usually I take part in these things because friends of mine are organizing it or something and they ask me to, because generally I don't participate in conferences much. But, I mean, do you have certain, yeah, aims or things you wish for that you might kind of enhance when you take part? Well, it's just nice to meet people and talk with them. I don't have much idea beyond that. I don't have any big thing. But, of course, if the Peace University can lead to... the kind of communication and openness that deepen the dialogue about peace, that's fine. And I think that this holiness, the Dalai Lama emphasizing inner peace and inner disarmament, which I also spoke about, is good. And that's a good addition to the general development of a dialogue about peace in the West.

[21:33]

I was at a seminar that he gave at Friedrichs-Universität and he used this sentence, so now is enough, and said that if you really feel it at that moment, then it is as if you would stop the world. She took part in a seminar at the Buddhist days, during the Buddhist days, and you used the phrase, just now is enough. She understood that you also said when you really feel that way in that moment, it's like you stop the world. And she is very curious about this phrase and could you say more about it and what you mean? Well, I feel, again, such a phrase, these practice phrases are a way of turning your own consciousness and your own activity

[22:48]

in the direction of a deeper understanding and a deeper practice. And just now is enough is a phrase which contradicts common sense, which is, you know, that now is never enough because you want to get... You're hungry, you want to eat, or you want to get married, or you... want a bigger house or a different house or a new job. But in fact, this is a necessary way to exist and to plan our future and take care of ourselves, our relationships to others. But it's not how we actually exist. We actually exist in the immediate present without any reference to what happens to the future and so forth. And in that sense, the entry to that is to recognition that this is not only enough, it's in fact all we have. And that calmness and deep recognition that this is all we have stops the world because past and future disappear.

[23:51]

And the immediate present is there in its presence and clarity and even the quality of preciseness and light. And that's what I meant by stop the world. For me it would be interesting to see what he would say about it. For me it would be interesting to see what he would say about it. I find a lot of things that can help me. Personally, she has been looking at various groups and religions and religious directions and trying this out and that.

[25:02]

But she wonders whether at one point she should decide to go to one group or one religion and decide on one way instead of sort of looking here and looking there. Well, you should decide. But you can't force a decision on yourself. But if you deeply know or thoroughly know that you should decide, then you're more likely to make the decision when you feel it. And in a lot of ways, it's like making a decision whether you like a painting or not. You can't actually analyze, why do I like this painting and why do I like this painting better than another painting?

[26:12]

You just like some paintings and don't like others so much. But if you always think there's a better painting somewhere else you'll never make a decision. So at some point you say, I like this painting a lot, I'm going to try to buy it or I'd like to borrow it or something. So at some point you say, I like this practice or I like this teaching or this teacher, and it makes sense to me, so I'll try it. And you will study many ways better and more deeply if you study one way thoroughly. So at some point, but then if it turns out after one year or two years that something's wrong or it doesn't work, then you can change.

[27:35]

But you should try something deeply at some point. Of course, I was lucky because Sukhriyasi was such a good teacher that when I met him when I was 25, I just decided it was pretty obvious to me this is what I should do. But for most people it wasn't obvious. Many people saw him and thought he was nice, but they didn't make him their teacher. But when I made him my teacher, other people started making him their teacher. So it's the kind of thing that it takes various people to recognize, because at first, he's just a little Japanese priest in this little temple.

[28:41]

OK. Do you think that it's always necessary to have a teacher-student relationship somewhere? I mean, to have a teacher to be able to go the way or to find your way? Well, I think to deeply find your way, it's helpful to have a teacher. And if you have a teaching, it's even better to have a teacher. But it doesn't have to be a guru or something like that, you know.

[29:49]

But there is an emphasis, there is schools of Zen which emphasize that meditation and the sutras are your teacher. That meditation, zazen, and the sutras are your teacher. And that's called Tathagata Zen. And you learn it through the truth of your experience in meditation and through studying the sutras. But there's also lineage Zen, which means you learn it through meditation and the sutras, but also through a person. And it's thought to be a deeper understanding when you learn it with a person in addition. But then helps you become a teacher because learning it through a teacher helps you teach. Okay, is that enough?

[31:06]

Anything else? What are your views on drugs as a medium of widening your perception? Can that be a help in meditation? Well, they do widen your perception sometimes and they do change your perception sometimes. But in general, in Buddhism is a tradition which decided probably 3,000 years ago to use meditation instead of drugs. And it's been developed primarily through meditation and the decision not to use drugs.

[32:08]

But sometimes people who take drugs get into meditation more quickly than other people. But often the experience of the drugs then begins to condition and limit after a year or two the kind of meditation experience they have. And if you really understand the practice of just now is enough, Then now is all you need. You don't have to add drugs.

[33:09]

Because as soon as you add drugs, you're really not practicing just now is enough. So that decision to decide just now is not enough is a kind of weakness. You don't strengthen yourself and find your own power is deeper. Thank you very much for the interview and also for the weekend. She enjoyed it very much and she thinks that she learned a lot and it has given her more to go a step further on her way. And I think you're a good interviewer and you have a career as an interviewer ahead of you, if you want.

[34:15]

It's a pleasure to sit here with you. Thanks.

[34:18]

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