Well, we have an interesting set of events today. Today, this afternoon, our plan was to have a lay ordination ceremony. and for one student of mine. And we've been preparing for this for a long time. And as it turns out, But it turns out that these three students, Boggs, live in a place called Arnold, which is Butte County or Calaveras County, somewhere in there, up north, and there's a big fire.

[01:23]

So they all had to go home to see what was going on. So we don't, there's no contact, and so we don't know what's going to happen. So this is how our Zen practice proceeds, is patiently, not waiting. Waiting, patience in my book means just one moment at a time. Great patience. So, I had planned to talk a little bit about the history of our ordinations in Soto Zen and in our American Sangha and in Berkeley Zen Center Sangha.

[02:37]

So I will still do that, incorporating this incident into it. So when I started to practice 1964, let me explain a little bit first. We have three kinds of ordinations, basically. We have what's called lay ordination, priest ordination, which is like a novitiate ordination. And then there's dharma transmission, which is a full ordination for a priest. Some years ago, I was, a number of us were thinking about how to honor or as teachers, because in our sanghas, which are mostly composed of lay people who practice pretty much like in the same way the priests practice, which is an unusual thing in the world, in the Buddhist world, and so

[04:03]

interaction between the two, which can be very subtle. In our situation, priests and laypeople practice together in the same way, and so sometimes people, there's always a difference. So, I in particular wanted to acknowledge the practice of mature lay people who've been practicing for years and years in our sangha. And so I put forth what I would call lay recognition. And to have a ceremony where we give the person small robe, which has a strap.

[05:23]

Some people say, what is that bib? Is that an apron? So, but it's Buddha's robe, only small. Whereas the large, it's a model of the large robe, which is this equivalent. You wrap it around your body. So it's called the I wanted to have lay recognition for the older members, partly to acknowledge their understanding and their ability to teach.

[06:41]

And we also have a step, which is called shuso. And a shuso means the person in the head seat during a practice period. Usually the ongo, or practice period, is three months in a monastery. Here it's six weeks. So the head seat is like the head monk, right? And shares the abbot seat. So after having been shuso, the layperson or the priest can give talks and have students and gives them a lot of leeway to practice with students.

[07:53]

lay person cannot do is do ordinations. Ordinations, when a priest has Dharma transmission, then they have the authority to do ordinations. We share the ordination ceremony, the ordination ceremony of his students. So, back in the 1960s, Suzuki Roshi came to Zen Center.

[09:14]

Well, he was invited by Sokoji Temple, which is a Japanese temple in San Francisco. They needed a priest. Zen Center from Japan in 1959, 69, 59. 59. It would take 10 years. 1959. So he had a late ordination for these people.

[10:20]

At that time, he invited Bishop Yamada, who was in Los Angeles, to come and do the ceremony for these people. I don't remember who the bishop is anymore. Oh, yes, I do. Akiba. So he invited the bishop up to do the ceremony. So that was very interesting because there were about 10 people, I think, maybe 10 people. And the reason he invited the bishop

[11:25]

was because the bishop had the authority in the country to do, to, he could have done it himself, but he invited the bishop in order to create some harmony and to recognize the authority of the bishop. So that was the first lay ordination, 1961, maybe 62. But there was no lay ordination after that. But Suzuki Yoshi ordained some people as priests, most of whom didn't work out, the first ones. He sent them to Japan and they got very discouraged because the Japanese didn't know what to do with them. They didn't speak Japanese and they weren't young college-type students. So it was really too difficult.

[12:31]

So most of them quit. So he stopped doing that. I was, I think, the fifth person he ordained, but not as a layperson. I was ordained as a priest, because he was not doing labored nations yet. So in 1969, he asked me to be a priest. I was surprised, because we were 1967, we opened Tosahara. And that was the same year we started the Berkeley Zendo, 1967. So, he ordained me in 1969 at the Berkeley Zendo. But there were no lay ordinations at that time. So 1970, he decided to ordain, to do lay ordinations.

[13:38]

And Katagiri Roshi was his assistant. He was just Katagiri Sensei at the time. And Katagiri Sensei had worked with Hashimoto Roshi. way of making robes. So he convinced Suzuki Roshi that what we should do when we become ordained is either to lay people or to sew our own robes, which nobody does that. But in Japan, doing that was an extra kind of practice, you know, kind of practice that some monks would do, but it was not a universal way. As a matter of fact, when you go to Japan and you wear this art style of robe, they don't really like that.

[14:47]

So it's okay, but it stands out as something different. So in America, we brought over sewing teachers who taught us how to sew our robes. And we just do that. It takes a long time. It's very difficult for a lot of people. But there's something wonderful about it in that it really focuses you on what ordination is about. The robes are more difficult to wear than the old Japanese robes, but we do it anyway. I don't always do that. I kind of like the old ones, but I mean the Japanese style. So little by little, we started ordaining people, both lay people and priests, and that's become a standard in our practice.

[15:53]

So one of the problems that kind of has arisen from this is that when we started acknowledging lay people's practice by giving the green raksu and the person having been shuso and authorizing them to teach, is that some people felt that there should be a separate track between laypeople and priests, that laypeople should be able to ordain laypeople, which of course is part of the priest's authority. And for me, that simply meant a split in the saga.

[17:22]

So my compromise has always been, which I've always done, is when laypeople have students, authorized laypeople have students, that we do the ordinations together. It's their student and I have the authority to do the ordination. we integrate together so that the feeling is that we're all doing, the teacher, myself, and the ordinate are all one, doing something together as one. the ordination into laypeople priests.

[18:47]

To me, it doesn't make sense to have a separate track for laypeople. We all practice together. What is the priest supposed to do? Because most of the people who are ordained are laypeople. before, I didn't ask to be ordained. I was not ordained as a layperson. I was ordained as a priest, Suzuki Roshi. I was surprised because we were at Tassajara. It was very hot. It was one of those hot summer days. It was the first Sashin we had at Tassajara. I remember that. It was really hot. practicing, you know, my legs hurt. And when you're sitting zazen in the summer, when it's 105 or something like that, it's, you know, it's hard to sit still.

[19:58]

And so I was, you know, hand-in-glove, you know, a lot of trouble. And at the end, Suzuki Roshi called me in and he said, I'd like you to join our order. which meant be ordained as a priest. I was rather surprised because it never occurred to me that I could actually, was actually, he would accept me to do something like that because I was probably the fifth, one of the first people to be ordained. We used to ordain people one by one before me and then after that, two by two. So, But he decided that he would ordain me in Berkeley rather than at Tassajara. So that's what we did. And because he felt that it would be nice to have a priest in Berkeley.

[21:05]

But I did not ordain anybody until I had dharma transmission, which was I had Dharma transmission in 84, and I think in 85 I ordained somebody. But between 69 and 84, I didn't ordain anybody, because I didn't have the authority. So, our practice is evolving, and Little by little, we're trying to figure... I don't know about figuring it out. I don't know if we can figure it out. I think things fall into place as time goes on. And little by little, the appropriate way to go emerges.

[22:10]

So I used to be a radical. And then I find myself in a position of being a conservative. Because when I started practicing, that was a very radical thing to do. So a lot of people question our Japanese roots and whether or not that works in America. A lot of it doesn't work in America. We have to reckon that a lot of our Japanese roots don't work well in America. At the same time, our roots are in Japanese practice, and there's something

[23:19]

very important that we need to understand about our roots. And the way we are focused on understanding our roots is by practicing in a way that is close to the root, which is a formal practice. our understanding. So my way of practicing, which is somewhat conservative, is to preserve an atmosphere called the zendo, where our parent practice is alive and transmitted So our practice from our root teacher to our students, I think, needs to be preserved and transmitted.

[24:33]

So by having this kind of atmosphere, cultural transmission, our American roots and our Asian roots. So I find to be able to establish a practice where those two meet and not just eliminate. A lot of people would just like to eliminate our Asian roots. Somebody, I'm thinking of our library, And sometimes I think, well, there are a lot of books in the library that nobody reads. And should they be culled from the library? But I hesitate to do that. I had one student who said something like, well, you know, I think we should get rid of all the books in the library and just have publications of American

[25:48]

Which sounds like an interesting idea, but all that history? If we don't, there's this old saying, we all know it, if we don't understand the mistakes of history, I remember somebody asking Suzuki Roshi, you know, why do we have to do this? Why do we have to do that? And he said something, you know, which was very insulting to Suzuki Roshi, but he very kindly said, you know, we have 700, over 700 years of people's and to just throw that off, throw that away and think that we can just do what we want, a big mistake.

[27:23]

So, the more I, more and more I realized that the essence of our practice is what's so important. And when we have the atmosphere of practice and honor our teachers of the past, our practice becomes more and more deep. As Master Dogen says, just do one thing thoroughly is the way. But in America we have so many opportunities. The Bay Area is the melting pot of Buddhism. All the practices are represented in the Bay Area. All the Asian practices of Buddhism are present in one form or another in the Bay Area.

[28:36]

So it's a big smorgasbord of Buddhist practices. And we can go to the Tibetans, and we can go to the Vipassanas, and we can, you know, take a little bit of this and a little bit of that, which is okay, you know. But the problem is, we think that the more we have, the better. But actually, practices have less and less. True practices have doesn't matter whether it's Tibetan or Vipassana, to do one thing thoroughly and completely is practice. When you have realization and maturity, then to go to various

[29:40]

This is why our practice is based on zazen. Zazen is the one thing you can do thoroughly where you don't have anything else to do. The depth of practice contains everything you need to know. The first time you Yeah. Suck!

[31:00]

Juliana, just like this. So, we all get caught, you know.

[32:39]

But we shouldn't know that we're caught. So, I don't know what's going to happen this afternoon. I do know one thing. We're going to have, Terry Jo is going to have her lay ordination this afternoon because she was all prepared last time we had our lay ordination a couple months ago. She was indisposed, but now she's disposed. So at least Terry will When we attend the ordination of one of our members, we all feel like we are doing this all together, as if we use our own practice.

[33:50]

And we support this person, all these people. And we get some taste of what that means, to be ordained, if we haven't done that. Thank you. I don't think my words are going to be chosen. I'm going to try to choose them well, but I'm not giving myself a whole lot of mook behind that, so please be gentle with your response. So, if I'm attached to something, and I know I'm attached to it, and I kind of accept Yeah, well, you're kind of attached to it. That's part of the package. Should I be making an effort or strive to not being attached? Because if I'm accepting it, it isn't as painful or distressing as if I'm holding on to it.

[34:59]

But do I really have to? I mean, what's the difference? The problem with attachment is No problem. So what is it if you're attached to something, but you accept, oh, that's just part of the package? Well, first of all, you have to accept. Yes, I'm attached. And then, I'll tell you how I do it. I don't push it away. And I simply say, do I need this? Is this necessary? And what part of me is attached to this? Because when we become attached to something in this way, then it has us by the nose.

[36:03]

So do I want to be led around by this? Who's the boss? So, Right now, I really like having a dog, as you know. And I don't have a dog. And I see all these beautiful dogs. There are certain dogs that I really get attached to, but they're the dogs that don't like cats. So choosing the dog that I like, that doesn't like cats, The dogs I like are the dogs that don't like cats. But I realize I have this one or two dogs going on in my mind. I'm really getting attached to this. It's taking up too much space in my mind. Stop this. Get it out. So I have to be able to not push it away, but just, okay, I realize

[37:13]

that my mind is occupied with this, which is kind of attachment, and it's turning me around because it's taking up too much space, right? So I just kind of live with that, knowing that that's happening, and that allows me to go on and do whatever I need to do, because even though it's there, it's not exactly obsessing, but it's a loop that keeps coming up, you know, but because I'm not obsessing, I'm getting distance from it by not pursuing it. It gives me the freedom to do what I need to do. That's the key. About lay teachers? Yes. I understand that there's precedent in Japan, China, and India for lay people being teachers, but I don't know of any precedent who kind of invented this color scheme.

[38:19]

Who did? We did. Who did? The green. Oh, I invented the green, yeah. Yes. So the color scheme, and I've seen one green full quesadilla, but the rest I've only seen the small quesadilla. There is a quesadilla, For dharma transmission, it's a seven-panel of Gesa, or nine, or more, or 20, or 50. And for a priest, it's seven. But for a layperson, it's five. If I enlightened you in a rock zoo, it's a five-panel of Gesa. So in Japan, some laypeople Usually, the priest's wife or somebody is authorized to wear a five-jowl okesa as a layperson.

[39:27]

So that does exist in Japan. Japan has their own because of its location and the Japanese and their understanding. So, but yes. So, and there's thought about should, can a layperson wear an okesa? It's possible. Matter of fact, there is one person who does. But that's possible. But it's... Would that be a tradition that you would like to see continue and develop? I don't know if I'd like to see, but I'm open to seeing. We're all open to seeing. If that is a possibility.

[40:30]

You have to really speak to that, I only have one hearing. Sure. What do you see as the difference between attachment and love, bonding or attachment and love? And not respond. No, I'm sorry. What do you see as the difference between attachment and bonding or attachment and love? And love? Yeah. Well, love does not, there are various levels of love, and so we use that word. to mean almost anything you want it to mean. In its highest sense, it means non-attachment. The highest sense of love means non-attachment. The lowest sense of love means attachment. And then there are all the levels in between. And I'm not saying one is good and the other is bad.

[41:50]

One causes more suffering than the other. That's all. It's all about what causes suffering. It's not about whether I like it or don't like it or think it's good or bad. Whatever it is that causes suffering, causes suffering. And so suffering, you can call it good or bad. You can call it right or wrong. Call it whatever you want. But it hurts. Love is like fire. So fire can either light up the room or it can burn it up. Yes. So how to bring the balance? The balance. Everything is balance. Balance is, you know, so what do you mean by balance? So how do you practice? Balance? Balance. This morning, I made a big statement in Zendo, because everybody was going like this.

[43:03]

And I said, sit up straight. And everybody was going like this. You don't know how to sit up straight and balance anymore. You have to do it every time. And that's how you do it in your life. Zazen, you carry that balance out into your life, and that's what you like. That's what gets you balanced in all of your activities. So that's how taking your practice from Zazen into the world, is how do you keep everything balanced? And so it means you take everything that comes and work with it selflessly. As soon as selfishness comes in, you're unbalanced.

[44:07]

So that's how you know. I'm not about something selfish going on here. Because selfishness means tipping the balance one way or another. Thank you very much for preserving the tradition, by the way. I just wanted to say that. But I want to also note there's a kind of a koan going with these three Zen novitiates. Jumping from their seat and running to worry about a fire. Yeah. Do you see that or is that just my... Well, I think they should do that. They should worry about the fire. Because one of the women's husband has dementia. He's in the house. Oh, there's something. And, you know, so people have reasons. If my house was on fire, I would go run up. It was interesting to hear you talk about finding yourself having moved from being radical now to being considered more conservative.

[45:38]

Can you give us an example of what represents radicalism? Doing the formal practice. Yes, because people don't want to do the formal practice anymore. That's too formal. So radical is conservative, and conservative is radical. Yes, that's the balance. Yeah, hi Judy. It's a short question please, don't make it long. Buddha said that he rediscovered an ancient path and then he came up with patchwork robe as an expedient means for the time and place.

[46:40]

Yes. How do you see that relationship preserved while authentic to this time and place and what's needed now? Well, this morning I was wearing a patchwork okhasa. As a matter of fact, this is patched too. No, we do. We take a big piece of cloth We cut it into little pieces of cloth and then sew it all together. Our life is made of little pieces of cloth, all sewn together. That's how we follow the path. How do you know that your way, whether it's ordaining or practice, what's appropriate? Yeah, it's not me doing it. When we have ordination, which is simply a conduit for Buddha's ordination, it's not my students.

[47:50]

Although we say, oh, they're my students or they're your students, So to say, me and mine, that's just a convenience, but it's actually not so. I ordain people as a representative of Shakyamuni. That's my authority, as a representative of Shakyamuni, to ordain people.

[48:26]

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