You have never said, you know, about them. How do you explain that? I know it's an old question, but... Little by little, you can talk. Well, sometimes it depends on the person. I think it's not necessary to explain. You just give a suggestion. Sit down with them, you know. Sit down just like I know. You know, sit down in your room after hard work, daytime. Just like that. Then it's pretty good. It's not necessary to understand the meaning of sitting, etc. Okay. But still, okay, I understand what you're saying, too. But, you know, there are other people who have, you know, really sort of great breakthroughs, and they don't seem to have practiced like this, you know. How do you understand that kind of experience?

[01:00]

It's certainly not very common, but it seems to happen. You mean, how to let them understand? You know, like Wittgenstein, who was a philosopher, he seems to have really understood greatly, and so forth. How did he reach that point? Well, you can talk about that in practice in terms of A and B world. Okay? Do you think... It's helpful for the people. Do you think no one can reach C world unless it's a bench? Well, strongly, I can say no one knows. But it's possible. To reach the C. But usually, we don't reach the C because we are always hanging around C.

[02:01]

That's it. That's why in the Kanza Zengi, it's mentioned. We attain enlightenment by hard practice, and then we believe we attain enlightenment. But it is not real enlightenment. We are just hanging around anyway. Enlightenment. Real enlightenment. That's it. That is very common. So, are you saying that the people who seem enlightened, they are not really enlightened? Huh? So, are you saying that some of the people who seem to be enlightened are really not enlightened? It seems they seem to attain enlightenment. Yes. But it's pretty cross. But they are hanging around. But it's better than nothing. So, we have to still... And we are still embraced by kindness of the mountains and rivers. So, that's why we have to walk together anyway. Wherever they are.

[03:06]

Okay. Those are just different degrees of... Well, there's a particular Buddhist self-realized person. Oh, okay. Perhaps he still practices Buddhism. Yes, he may have his own. A particular Buddhist is... Behold. If she would, then they can see, yes. Hanging around. Hanging around. I see one. Thank you. When you talk about the kindness of the mountains and rivers, is that the same as compassion? I think so. Do you have compassion for other people?

[04:12]

Sure. Buddha wasn't... He's always had compassion. For him, everything, everyone, every people, right? Yes. That's why we can... We can hang around, see. Even though you cannot be exactly, you know, prophets in the sea world, we can still hang around the sea. Hanging around means you're still without realization,

[05:13]

very deep realization. You are there, in the sea world. But still hanging around means you don't realize exactly. But if you are, anyway, in the compassion of the mountains and rivers, or since you're being like that, so-called sea world, we have to be there, we have to realize it, we have to live up to it. We have to translate it. This is a person who carried with the Dharma. That's it. This is a small detail that has been bothering me slightly

[06:24]

about the translation. I think, maybe not, but this is what would seem better for me in the... This illumination is to clarify what I'm trying to say. Oh, very nice. Thank you. Question from the audience.

[07:35]

Why was Wan Chi's poem... Why did that... His writing stand out to them? Is that a... Excuse me. Yeah. Dogen's relating it to Wan Chi's poem. What was it about Wan Chi's poem that attracted Dogen so much to do Wan Chi's work? Wan Chi, Zen Master, mentions that the Oneness emphasizes the Oneness of Zazen and person. Zazen and Buddha Zazen. Buddha Zazen. Okay. But in those days, most people they understand Zazen as separate from Buddha. So by that, that means to use Zazen as a means.

[08:40]

By Zazen, we can become Buddha. Like this. But Wan Chi Zen Master mentions Zazen is Buddha. Simultaneously Buddha. That is a real peaceful way. Very peaceful way. We have to understand that one through and through. That is what Dogen constantly mentions. Zazen is Buddha. Buddha is Zazen. Mountains and rivers are you. Universe is you. You are universe. The Self is the whole universe. He constantly mentions this. Because this is the most peaceful way of life. But if you use Zazen as a means to realize the universe, the universe which is one with you, at that time it is dualistic. So naturally you use the universe

[09:46]

as a means to end. You use yourself as a means to reach the universe. Always like this. So there is a gap. So if there is some gap, very naturally you create even a slight sense of aggression or struggle and struggling and fighting and something like that. It is not peaceful. Yes, going into the Zazen is that the same thing as Zazen and the universe is one. Satsang with Mooji

[11:20]

Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji

[12:22]

Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji The rest of this side of the tape is blank. Please fast forward and turn over. Side B. There is a lecture by Ed Brown. Sunday, December 11, 1983 at Green Dragon Temple. Thank you. Today, when I thought about

[13:51]

what to talk about, when I thought about what to talk about today, I felt very cautious about saying something about Buddhist practice or giving some Buddhist teaching. And I'd like to talk about why I feel cautious about doing that. And I'm going to tell you a couple of my favorite stories which have to do with this subject, or not just this subject, but they relate to it. One story is about two young men who went into a Catholic monastery, or a Christian monastery,

[14:51]

Can you hear? Or do you just hear the wind? When I first got out here this morning, it was so loud. It was loud enough so that when you're outside, you can't hear yourself think. It's kind of a relief. Then when you get inside, you start thinking again. So these two young men went into the monastery, and they both enjoyed smoking very much. And they would, during the breaks, in the daily schedule and routine, they would relax together and smoke a cigarette. And sometimes maybe they would have a pipe. And they both thought,

[15:55]

this is not very good for our spiritual development. We should find some way through our practice to stop smoking. So, they continued their practice, but try as they might, they still continued to enjoy smoking. Even after six months, and after one year, they still loved to take a break and sit down and relax, light up a cigarette or a pipe, and enjoy smoking. They found it very pleasurable, and they didn't want to give it up. It was one of the few enjoyable, really enjoyable things they could do while they were in the monastery. In the midst of the daily routine, getting up early in the morning, having to do prayers for hours. Finally, after

[16:58]

a year or more, they talked with each other, and they thought, this is not very good. There must be some way to combine these two practices, the monastic practice and the smoking, and make them one, not so that we're trying to... Maybe there's some way that we can bring these two together, instead of having a spiritual life where we try to get rid of smoking. Maybe there's some way to combine them. So the first, they thought, well, let's talk to the abbot about this. So one of them went into the abbot and said, you know, I've been here now for over a year, and still, in all this time, I haven't been able to give up smoking. And I wanted to ask your advice about this. It's occurred to me that there must be some way to combine smoking and the life of prayer. And I was wondering

[18:02]

if it would be alright with you if during prayers, in the chapel, if I was to smoke while we were doing prayers, and if this would be alright with you. Because I'd like to bring these two parts of my life together. And the abbot said, that is absolutely forbidden. When you're praying, you should just pray. And you can't be smoking in the chapel during prayer. That won't do it all. I'm sorry. So the young man went away, and he was very discouraged, wondering, well, what am I going to do now? And he said to his friend, you know, that abbot is very tough, very strict. And I don't think he understands about what we want to do. So the other one said, well, let me try anyway. And he went in to see the abbot, and he said, roughly the same thing.

[19:02]

I've been here so long now, over a year, and I still can't stop smoking. And I enjoy it very much. As much as I try not to smoke, or try not to think about smoking, I still enjoy it very much. But one thing I was wondering, is if while I'm smoking, it would be alright if I was to pray. And the abbot said, well, that's very good. That's excellent. Whatever you're doing, all the time, of course, you should be trying to pray also. So he was very pleased with this suggestion. Anyway, this is how it is to try to practice Buddhism. It's similar to this.

[20:03]

Somehow we get the idea that by practicing Buddhism we can get rid of some parts of our life that we think aren't so good for us. Like smoking, or some bad habits we have. And it's a very perverse kind of thing, because if you're trying very hard not to think about smoking, or wanting to smoke, and you're thinking about not smoking, and you're making this big effort to practice diligently, after a while it occurs to you, well, you know, I have been practicing very hard now. I've made a big effort, and maybe it's about time I relaxed and had a cigarette. Just to kind of, you know, reward myself. After all, I've been really trying now, and I should have a little pleasure. It's about time,

[21:05]

and just to encourage myself to do this very tough and diligent practice that I've set out upon. So in this way, much as we try to improve or understand Buddhism or practice Buddhism, this other part of our life comes up, and in some way doesn't seem to be interested in practicing Buddhism. So the other story I have to talk about has to do with this also. I can't remember exactly where this story is supposed to have taken place, but in a way,

[22:06]

it could be a Green Gulch, because there are deer in the hills here that come down and eat in the fields. This is a story about a farmer, and the farmer was very diligent, as the monk in the previous story. So the farmer went about cultivating his fields and hunting crops, and quite often, the deer would come into the fields and start eating. And this annoyed the farmer greatly, because he felt that those crops were his. He'd worked to grow them, and that deer was eating up his crops. So he sent his daughter. He called his daughter, and he said to his daughter, I want you to go and kill the deer that's eating our crops. So the daughter got the...

[23:09]

They had a bow and arrow. The daughter got out the bow and arrow and went down to the fields and waited for the deer to come. And she waited very quietly, and finally the deer came and started eating. She raised the bow, and just then the deer looked up and looked her right in the eye and started singing a beautiful song. And the daughter started to cry. It was so beautiful. And she dropped the bow, and she went back home. She said to her father, I can't do it. The deer just looked me in the eye and started singing, and it was so beautiful. I couldn't imagine killing that deer. So the father called his son. Son, I guess you're going to have

[24:10]

to take care of this. You know, our sister here, she couldn't... You know, she didn't have the guts to do it, so it's up to you now. So he went out there with the bow, and the same thing happened. Just as he was about to shoot the deer, the deer looked up with its big, soft eyes, looked right into his eyes, started singing this beautiful song, and the son couldn't imagine killing that deer. So of course when the father heard about this, he said, damn it, you know, if you want something done around here, I guess you're just going to have to do it yourself. You can't rely on anybody to do anything for you, especially if it's, you know, takes some courage. So he went down there, and he was quite determined to kill that deer. And so the deer came finally,

[25:22]

and the same thing happened again. The deer looked up with its big eyes, looked into his face, and started singing the most beautiful song he'd ever heard. So he, he left his bow and arrow there in the fields, picked up his flute, and started playing along. So he,

[26:43]

he left his bow and arrow there in the fields, and started playing along. The story actually ended there. It ended before he picked up his flute and started playing along. I started to continue the story.

[27:53]

We don't exactly know in these kind of stories, you know, who is the farmer and who is the deer. Or who is, you know, who is right and who is wrong. And whether it's better to be the farmer or better to be the deer, better to be the one who's praying or the one who's smoking. After a while, if we think about it, we don't know anymore who is who. And it sounds good in the first story that when you're smoking,

[28:57]

why don't you also pray? But actually, the first way is not so bad, too. There must be some way to invite the person who enjoys smoking into the chapel to pray. But unfortunately, the person who enjoys smoking thinks, wait a minute, I don't want to go in there. If I go in there, they're going to tell me how bad I am, what kind of bad person I am for enjoying smoking. So I think I'll just stay outside. And the person who goes into the chapel then is very serious and devoted and doesn't want this other character around who might not be so religious or so enlightened. And we think that

[30:02]

if we keep that fellow out of the meditation hall or out of the prayer, that will be the thing to do. And then eventually that person will wither away. And by our hard working effort, serious commitment to religious practice or growing crops, harvesting them, making money, whatever it is, we will succeed. We'll get somewhere. It never occurs to us that, rarely it occurs to us that

[31:03]

there will always be a deer, like the deer in the field. There will always be someone who enjoys smoking. If you go to invite the one who enjoys smoking into the meditation hall, I say, well, come on, let's go and meditate together. Why don't you come with me? Oh, you're no fun. You're such a stuffy person. You get so serious, I can't stand being around you. Then, you know, you have to maybe try something else. As I've mentioned before, the sort of Tom Sawyer trick. Well, why don't you show me how to do it, huh? You go into the meditation hall, I'll follow after you, and you can show me how to not be so serious about it. And I'd like to see you do it in a way that's,

[32:05]

you know, more fun. How would you do it and have fun while you're at it? And not be so serious about it. And it's the same thing when you're smoking, when you're smoking that, you know, I don't want you around because you'll spoil the fun. So the farmer is very, you know, goal-oriented, serious, makes an investment. He's cultivating his fields for himself or herself, and then there's this deer that is just eating freely. You know, never made any effort. He's just enjoying the bounty of things without having, you know, having to work for it or suffer for it

[33:05]

or anything. And seems to be able to have a great time and just sing. And is very, in some way, once you look it in the face directly and meet the deer face to face, the deer turns out to be very appealing. This beast that was eating up your crops turns out to be a very appealing creature. And seems to know how to have a good time and enjoy things and sing beautiful songs, which you've been too busy to do. You know, too busy growing the crops. Too busy to have a good time and sing songs and enjoy yourself

[34:06]

and eat the food that comes along. And usually what happens is in our life we tend to identify with one or the other, the farmer and the deer. And one thing that happens is if we've been a good farmer for a while, at some point in our life we may find hey, being the deer is much more fun. Why don't I skip being the farmer and I'll just be the deer. And I'll go and I'll just go around and razz people for making such a serious effort. Hey man, how come you always practice so hard like that? What do you think you're doing? Think you're going

[35:09]

to attain something, huh? Think you're going to get somewhere? Think you're going to become a better person, do you? Boy, that's a laugh. You're crazy. You're just wasting your life away, you know? I mean, let's have a good time now. Let's just go and enjoy ourselves, huh? Let's just go and enjoy And that kind of creature, that kind of, you know, when the farmer gets a little bit tired or the monk gets a little bit tired, you know, the effort, the awakeness, the concentration, the mindfulness, it breaks down. And then, ready, the deer is ready. Leave. I got you. I'm in charge now. You're not strong enough to cope with me anymore. You weaky.

[36:09]

You blew it. Your practice isn't that good, see? I'm here now. Even after all these years, you see, I can still pump up. You haven't gotten rid of me yet. So then the, you know, someone who's, if we're trying to become spiritual or cultivate ourselves,

[37:11]

we can get very discouraged then. Okay. So we keep thinking it's, we tend to think it's either or. Either,

[38:15]

one of them, it must be better to be one or the other. And then we side with one or the other. We identify who I am with one or the other. And then we decide And it doesn't seem to occur to us like the, maybe at some point it does. It may occur to us finally like the monks in that story that there's some way to pray and smoke at the same time. And maybe it takes the form of prayer or maybe it takes the form of smoking. So anyway, I want to mention a third character, the mystery character in this story. And this is the person who tells the story. Or the person who,

[39:16]

as you go about your life, you notice that there's someone who is seriously making some effort to accomplish something. And you notice that there's a deer or someone who'd like to enjoy himself or herself. And you say, I notice these things. So there's that person too. The one who notices and can describe and talk about the other two. Does that make sense? And this person you can't describe. Because as soon as you describe the person who's doing the describing, you have another

[40:20]

character in the story rather than the person who's describing the character. So this person is someone you can't really see or know. But it doesn't mean this person is not there. And this is the person who can practice, really practice who can bring about practice of Buddhism in one's life. And a simple way to describe that is for that person to say to the characters in the story, in the great drama of our life, is there some way you two can get together? Is there some way you can be friends? Is there some way

[41:29]

you could enjoy each other's company? Is there some way you can learn from one another? Sometimes learn from the other. Is there some way sometimes the teacher, sometimes the student? Is there some way to do that? Do you think you could find some way? Please try that. Then you hear, like all the protests I've been talking about, but he's such a flake. All the protests all he does is like to sit around and smoke cigarettes. I'm not going to hang out with him. The other guy says, but he's so serious. He never enjoys himself. We can't possibly

[42:32]

be friends. That deer is eating up my props. That guy is so attached to his props. So, little by little maybe, say, well, come on now. Just shake hands so I don't kill her. Do something together. Maybe sometimes the farmer does put down his implements

[43:32]

and picks up his flute and joins the song. Or maybe this deer is like an oxen and plows the field. There are so many possibilities once they decide. Once the person telling the story decides to join the song, gets them to, hey folks, can't you be friends? Let's try it. So, in one of the kinds of practices in Zen, a simple kind of practice, sometimes we call it mindfulness or something,

[44:32]

I know Suzuki Roshi kept saying to me for the first several years I was practicing, when you cook, cook. When you're washing the rice, wash the rice. When you cut the carrots, cut the carrots. When you sit, sit. And when you eat, eat. And so on. So I think mostly if we have that kind of advice, we leave the deer out or we leave the smoker out and we very seriously try to follow that kind of teaching. Instead of inviting the deer or the smoker to come along and be part of washing the rice or cutting the carrots or eating. So this kind of practice

[45:43]

is not so simple and something we can do day in and day out moment after moment how we do something with some wholeness like that. There's someone who wants to accomplish things and there's someone who just enjoys. If they get polarized, the one who is serious and one gets overly attached to things and the other one is completely unattached and the one that is unattached in this case will always be undermining and upsetting the one who wants to accomplish things and will become very negative. But when they work together they'll be very positive and they can enjoy

[46:45]

each other's company. So we have this kind of task. Another kind of practice to do with that is when you look at when I find myself criticizing the deer or just having a good time and not ever doing any work maybe I can find out how to work with some joy or some pleasure like the deer take. Anyway, if I find myself

[47:47]

criticizing these two if I notice these two are criticizing each other I may remind myself why don't you see if you can find some virtue. Why don't you look again and look very closely and look as in that story look the deer in the eye and see if you don't see some virtue rather than keeping your eye on the crops that are being eaten and finding some fault. So why I hesitate sometimes to talk about Buddhism is I'm afraid for the poor deer. That

[48:47]

if I talk about Buddhism we may be maybe people will get the idea to to shoot the deer with Buddhist practice. And that's not the point. . The point is to keep encouraging those two aspects to come together again and again, and to find some way to enjoy each

[50:05]

other's company. Thank you very much. I've enjoyed your company today, such as it's been.

[50:14]

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