It's some mysterious filled day in April. I think it's the 19th or the 20th. It's coming out as magnifying glass. 19th is what it says. OK. It's approximately the 19th. It is the 19th because it's a Wednesday. It's Wednesday, April 19th. And we'll continue to talk about God's Father day the 19th. Mm-hmm. Now we move to Long Beach. We moved to a housing project. Is this on also? The mic? Is that mic on? We're on mic? Okay. And... But I didn't want to transfer to my school. How long were you away for? What grade were you? Tenth. This is not as good as the one with Fatima. No offense, it doesn't taste good.

[01:06]

Everything in Hatch County looks better, because we will. It's just a problem. Yeah. So, and then I would hitchhike to school every day. But my mother would give me a quarter to take the bus. But I would hitchhike. Okay. And the quarter is the only money I had. But once a week I had to take the laundry for a dollar. Family laundry. For a dollar a quarter or something. In high school. How did you manage to save the dollar from the laundry? Did you have to use the dollar to do the laundry? Oh no, the laundry is at home. Oh, do the laundry at home? And they gave you a dollar to do it? Yeah. You do the washing, hang it on the line? I just washed it, I think. Okay.

[02:06]

And how old are you at this point? 10th grade. High school. So you had a dollar a quarter of your expenses back in high school? Well, I had a dollar for the week and 25 cents a day. Oh, that's not too bad. How was that going along? I didn't know. Well, I didn't buy anything. What? I didn't buy anything. Right. But, um... I didn't like high school. I drew pictures all morning in high school. I was an artist. And I couldn't concentrate on my classes at all. I guess I had... Today they would call that a, um... Just trouble paying attention. Yeah. And the teacher would talk to me, but I'd look at the teacher's face and, you know, the way their mouth moved and their expression.

[03:08]

I wouldn't listen to what they were saying. He would carefully pay attention to something other than their words. Yeah, yeah. So I went visually oriented. You know? And, uh, so I drew, you know, I just drew pictures all during my classes. And then, uh, in art school, I just, I mean, in high school, I just mostly took art classes as electives. And, uh, it was really miserable. Really miserable? I had a good time in junior high. Junior high was fun. But, and I had friends, and But as soon as I went to high school, everything changed. You know, it was a total change. Because junior high was kind of classless, you know? But since high school, going into high school, there were all these, it was class consciousness, you know?

[04:14]

And the upper class, and the middle class, and the lower class, you know, which didn't exist in junior high. It was just kids. It was just kids, yeah. And boy, that was a shock to me. And I was a really lower class. We didn't have any money. And we were Jewish. You know, that made a big difference in those days. Much different than today. Weren't there a lot of other Jewish kids at your school? Well, there were, you know. There were, but not a lot. But, you know, the usual amount, the average amount. Was it part of the leadership of the school, or were they tipside? I don't remember who the leadership of the school was, but the leadership of the school was usually what we called the socias. The what? Socias. Socias? Yeah, I think it kind of meant social group or something, you know. They wore rogue shoes that were always polished with cordovan shoe polish, you know, and white starched or pinstripe starched cotton shirts rolled up, you know, one cuff rolled up.

[05:19]

and a draped haircut with the hairs coming back on the sides with a line down the middle. I mean down the, at the back of your head, the part of the back of your head. A drape? A drape. A drape? Yeah, a drape. And then I was cleanly washed. And what were you wearing? I just wore my clothes, you know. I remember I had this paint on my hair. I was always covered with paint. So I just couldn't relate. It was just totally, you know, I couldn't relate at all. I was out of it, totally out of it. Whereas in junior high, I was totally in it. Who happened to the friends that you had in junior high? Well, they, you know, became... They joined other groups? They joined other groups, yeah. They kind of like broke off? into, yeah, and then there were the Irish groups, and the, you know, the niche groups, and the, you know, and, and since we had no social life in my family, all these kids had social lives in their family, and their families related to each other.

[06:34]

Right. That, you know, and they're big clans, you know, that related to each other, and, you know, but my family related to nobody, and so I had nobody to relate to in that way. You were alone. I was totally, totally alone. Except for, I always had one friend, you know. So who was your brother at this point? One of the bad guys in the army. How many years old were you? How many what? How many years older were you? Four. Four years older. So he went to high school here before he graduated? Mm-hmm. Yeah, he was over in Germany. Really? This was during the war. So, when you were painting, what did you put... Well, I was drawing, you know, mostly drawing. I didn't think I was painting yet. But... I just drew all the time. I just drew from my imagination. I never copied anything. I just drew phantasmagoria, you know, faces.

[07:41]

Mostly faces, expressions. I'd like to, um, I want to hear about your mother. I'd like to stop the tape, if you will, and I want to just do what we can. She came to, um, America when she was a year old from Russia. And what part of Russia? Kiev, Russia. And, uh, she had a lot of relatives were totally the opposite of my father's relatives. We were genteel and actors and musicians and dancers and, you know, a kind of New York sophistication, whereas my father's family was lower class and more gruff and peasant-like. And where did they live?

[08:51]

New York. They lived in New York? Yeah. She met your father? She met my brother, my father, when she came here because she came here to California in the 20s, I guess. Early 20s. And she was working for my father's sister, who was a seamstress. underwear for the movie stars in Hollywood. Well, my mother worked for my father's sister. Yeah, making lingerie. Making lingerie. Slips. Yeah, hand embroidered stuff, you know, for Hollywood stars, I guess. And then that's how my father met her. And she used to go hiking a lot.

[09:53]

She has all these pictures where she used to go hiking in Yosemite. Really? That was quite adventurous for a woman in those days. It was very adventurous. Very independent and free. Yeah. And I have these pictures of her, you know, climbing a tree. Really? Yeah. You know, real old clothes, you know. And she was tall and short. She was beautiful. She was short. What was her beauty? Where was it? Well, I mean, she just had nice features and... Pretty eyes. Yeah, you know. What color were her eyes? Dark eyes? Brown. Brown eyes. Of course. Did your father have brown eyes, too? No, my father had blue eyes. Okay. Matter of fact, which I thought was unusual from being Jewish. That's so... Wow. Yeah. So, um... And then she, you know, she knew Barney Oldsfield, who was, no, he was an airplane pilot who had this, you know, flew the mail across the country, you know, in 1915 or something.

[11:07]

And I have this picture of her, you know, with her and him. standing, you know, by his airplane, you know. We have a picture of you standing by an airplane. That's right. When she came into the house, they were both together. So she was adventurous. You know, I don't know how she hooked up with my dad. That story was never told. But he must have really wanted her badly. He treated her very well. And, uh, you know, she just went along, you know. She just became the housewife. And she just, you know, adjusted to that. So she didn't complain about your father or your father's family? No, she didn't complain about it. There wasn't a tension in that way? No, there was no tension in that way. But for you, you were seeing two very different styles of life. She was very dominated by him. I mean, because he was, you know, very strong and dominating.

[12:10]

He was boss. He was boss. That's right. He was boss. This is the family where the father was boss. Right. Why am I laughing? I remember, you know, trying to be that way with Daniel and it just didn't work. Because Daniel's really your father. Daniel is boss. I've been to your house, I've seen it too, I was a lot of trouble. So, but my mother always was crocheting, you know, she'd always sit there with, you know, bedspreads would come out, you know, and doilies, you know, she'd hand them a cast of doilies, you know, like just flowing out of her. bedspreads and... It's a good image.

[13:16]

Toilets were flowing out. That's right. They did it in those days. Yeah. And my image of her just, you know, with the needles, you know, sitting down with the needles. And she could talk to you. Those metal needles with the little hooks on the ends, right? Yeah. Crochet. She could talk to you and do all that stuff, you know, without you thinking about it. Yeah. For one of you, it seems like you inherited a lot of good things from your mother. That's right. What are they? Well, um... How are you like your mother and your mother's family? Well, I think, um... temperamentally, I'm like my mother's father. Although I do have a lot of my father's temperament. Right. Gentle one. I mean, why do you call a boss? Did Assistant Peter Ritchie say that you were Mel's boss? They used to call me Mugsy, I guess.

[14:17]

Mugsy. When I was with Dick, you know, I got so pissed off at Dick at Pasajara that I used to argue a lot, you know. And then Red called me Mugsy. And I kind of went there for a little while. It was a story about the Suzuki where she said, Mel is boss. Yeah? You know that? I'm telling you a record for this. Anyway, back to... Mel is Zen center. That's in branching streams. Mel is Zen center? He said that to you? Well, he said it in the election. But he didn't mean that I... Well, not only me, but he meant that when you see Mel, it's not just Now it's also a Venn Center. I understand. So... That was just like, that reminds me of that famous historical discussion that we had about what identity to put forward within a front office and everything of Page Street.

[15:25]

We won't go into it now, but it really was the Venn Center. That's right, yeah. This is what you were really saying. Yeah. It wasn't against it. No. It was. about being to the center, [...] She was very pretty, very petite probably, as you imagine. And then she widened. Then she widened. Yeah. And I remember her doing things like that. Was she a good cook? Oh, she was a very good cook, yeah. What did she cook? She was good at everything she did. Well, you know, she cooked mostly pot roast and potatoes and stuff like that, you know.

[16:29]

But she made spinach patties where you take cracker crumbs and put an egg, where you take cracker crumbs and roll them on with a rolling pin. And then you take spinach and chop it up, fry it. Then you take an egg and you mix all three together. And then you put it in the frying pan. But it's just delicious. Did you ever make them? No, but I probably could. Yeah. I should do that sometime. Yeah. Do you eat these crackers or do you have to use salt? Oh, anything. Any kind of crackers? Yeah. Do you eat them? I think they're good. I eat them all the time. They don't make it sometimes. You come over and I make lunch. Okay. That'd be great. A little salad or something. A little spinach pie. So she was a good cook?

[17:31]

She made great kasha. Very good kasha. Nice gravy. Good soups. Did you have sweets? Did you have sweets in your mouth? Not so often? I don't remember. I don't think so much. We probably didn't have very much in the realm of sweets. And I didn't have a cavity until I was 40. Then you probably didn't have a lot of sweets. I don't think so. Not like later in the day, you know. So much. Every day. But I do remember when we'd go and they had these nickel candy bars. And the candy bars filled the package. I remember, you know, in the past 15 years, the package is the same size, but the candy bars keep shrinking. You get more packaging. And nearly cost 99 cents.

[18:33]

For nickel we used to get, there was one candy bar called Honeycomb. There were two very thinly chocolate coated Honeycombs. They were pretty good size for nickel. I know all the regular candy bars used to be nickel. There were a couple of ten-cent bars, like Mounds and everything. But most of the candy bars were five cents. Very nice candy bars. A lot of candy candy. It was just a great amount. I mean, five-cent candy bars is literally a lot of candy. Yep. So anyway, my mother had some friends. My mother's friends that came over. I didn't know them that well. But, you know, they were her friends, And I was interested in him. How about your mother's family? Oh, well, I never knew my mother's family until later.

[19:36]

But we did have her nephew, Maurice, who was an actor. He was an actor during the war, though. He was a navigator on a bomber. Really? And he came and stayed with us. He was great. I really liked him a lot. you know, a liberal artist, you know, he was an actor. And he was her? Her nephew. Her nephew. And then she also had... So he was about the same age as you? No, he was older, much older. He was already around me. He was about ten years older than me. So he must have been like the oldest child of the oldest person in her family. Among the brothers and sisters. I might have looked pretty, you know, She was actually about 10 years older than my father. But she didn't look old. But she was pretty old when she got married.

[20:38]

I think so, yeah. And then one of her, another one of her nephews was a famous ballet dancer. Famous? Yeah. Who was that? Zachary Solow. If I ever mention he had the ballet dances as a kid, and his parents were definitely dumb, and he would bite them and sit in the front seat. They could enjoy being in the front because they'd see everything, but they wouldn't hear all the popping and jumping. dance with the ballet theater. And, uh, but there's a lot of my mother's relatives that she loved, who I didn't like.

[21:40]

Also, one of her relatives was a major in the army, and he was in charge of Fort Leavenworth during the war. Fort Leavenworth was an army prison. So they sent a bad boy? That's what they said, the bad guys. So that's kind of my mother's family. How do you see yourself as being like your mother and like your mother's family? Maps are crazy. I think my father's been kind of crazy and frenetic, you know. I mean, I have one cousin who, Jerry, was a big, heavy guy, you know, a monster. And he was very, very disturbed.

[22:41]

You know, he hated our family, you know. I think he had a disposition kind of like a good man would. Both sides of the family had a feeling for art and music. Your father's side too? Yeah. My father's side was more crazy. My mother's side was more genteel and sophisticated. And they lived in New York and actually participated in the arts. Yeah, that's right. They were really manifesting it. Did that help shape your idea of being an artist? No, no. That's what shaped us. When I was really young, there was a candy corner for my house. was a park that was called Olive Hill.

[23:54]

It was kind of a hill in the middle of the town. And on top of it was a Frank Lloyd Wright building that was used as an art center, a child's art center. And so we used to go there all the time. And there was this wonderful cowboy named Curly Fletcher. And he wore dark glasses. And he was Swedish, fine. And he taught drawing to kids. And that's where both my brother and I started drawing. Now, my brother was very good. He didn't get rendered, you know, into wonderful art. He was a really good artist. So it was in this building that was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, where you used to go and have these classes for kids. It was like after school, you know? Yeah.

[24:57]

And, yeah, I remember my first time, you know, the train, the houses, you know, drawing all the stones in the chimney, one by one, with all the bricks. I'm crazy that you can actually remember that. Yeah, I do. And I remember my brother made a ruffalo wind down, a sculpture of a ruffalo wind down and painted it gold. Do you remember that? That's where I smoked my first cigarette. The center? Did you like that? Well, it was down the middle, you know.

[25:58]

Was your brother there? I don't remember. Probably not, because he and I didn't hang out much together. And my brother... That's it. That's going to be another interview. Yeah, that's a whole other interview. That's a whole other story. A whole other story. Okay, so the drawing... It sounds like he had a good relationship with Carly. Yeah. Fun. And he loved my brother. I mean, he had a good relationship. I was too young, you know. I was four years younger, you know. So, it was better than very smart. People liked him because he was so clever, you know. He was like a real intelligent, clever, artistic, you know. And I was just a little brother, you know. So I didn't mind it. I was always very generous. My nature was always very generous.

[27:02]

My brother's nature was always very selfish. So we didn't get along. I mean, I always wanted to get along with him, but he never wanted to have anything to do with me. Right? Not fun. Yeah, not fun at all. You said she was very sweet and kind. Very sweet and kind and generous and accommodating. She helped other people who were in the circle of neighbors. Well, you know, she was always willing to help anybody who needed help. She had her services more qualified, as frequently as yours. And you said that there was no touching. In your family, there's not affection in itself. Your parents didn't hold your hand when you walked down the street, didn't sit with their arm around you. They didn't either? No. You never saw any displays of affection between them? No. When you were little, did you want to be hugged and touched more, or did you do something that

[28:14]

I was always looking for girlfriends. You really started to see, like, that real development. That's why it's called real development at UCI. Since I can remember. And I did have them. In junior high, I had tons of girlfriends. We had a great society of boys and girls who were playing, you know, all kinds of wonderful games. Sounds good. And it was wonderful. I want to go back to it. But we'll continue with your mother. Tell about when your mother took you to Venice Beach more than once. Oh yeah, we used to do our vacations there. And Venice at that time was something like it is today. But it was more, you know, it's an old beach town, you know, with old houses, weather-beaten houses, and weather-beaten shorefront. You know, they'd throw hot dogs and magazines and, you know... Oh, they didn't have roller skaters and weightlifters and bodybuilders?

[29:22]

No, they didn't have the bodybuilders. Transsexuals and everything? Well, the bodybuilders were there. Were they? Yeah. Yeah. Well, say what you remember seeing there. There were rows and rows of benches down the boardwalk. Facing the ocean. And these old Jews, you know, would sit down and talk, you know. and then they sit down on the benches and talk, you know, there's this feeling of... some state feeling. Some state feeling? What do you think that feeling was? Well, it was like... that kind of feeling of freedom and old people And it was kind of quiet. It wasn't like roller skates.

[30:23]

It was more like the open air, and the birds, and the ocean, and people with bathing suits. You know, that was the beach part. Right. The boardwalk. And then the boardwalk with the gold shoes and living out their lives. Right. And you feel a real closeness with one another. They talk closely together. They sit close and they talk. Yeah, and the night is just clear on the beach, so... What is a dentist? They're in a bush and park there, and fish at the end. And I bring the fish home. I always cut something. What do you cut? It's my drop line. Uh-huh. Like a tipsy? This little tipsy so it's white? Yeah. And you just, what, do you cut a hand line? No, I cut the drop line. It's just a line. But it has to have some sink in. Oh yeah, we put a sinker on it. So you put a dipstick on the sinker. You see what we call them around here? Yeah, that's what we used to call dipsticks. Oh yeah.

[31:24]

Yeah. They're like little lead weights. Yeah. Right. So you had a hand line. Yeah. Not a pole. No. It's a fishing line. It wraps around a couple sticks. Perch. Perch and yellowtail. That's what you caught? Good. Good. Clever killer. And then we'd go out to Chinese restaurants. Before we go to the Chinese restaurant, I want to know what the bait was. Oh, the bait. Potentially... I'm not sure I can smell it. Somehow, Chinese food needs to smell different than it does today. I don't know whether it's that Chinese food or me. But in Los Angeles... Chinese food, the smell of the Chinese restaurants. I guess it's me, you know, because I don't smell much anymore. But in those days, I mean, going to a Chinese restaurant was like going into heaven.

[32:29]

It's not so good to you? Well, yeah, something like that. So my mother and I used to enjoy going to Chinese restaurants. What were some of the dishes that you ate at the Chinese restaurant? I think I just remember my mother's features and her feelings more than I remember any incident. Let's think about her features. She had brown eyes and dark. Dark, she was dark. What color was her hair? Well, it was dark. Dark hair. But fair skin? Yeah. Small.

[33:30]

And she dressed, you said, in a wrapper? Uh-huh. How did she dress? She usually had a Southern California cotton dress. And Southern California shoes, or shoes? No, what? With open toes. Southern California shoes, sandals with open toes. Okay. So, Southern California dresses, Southern California cotton dress, and Southern California open-toed shoes. So, they're cool. Did your parents have a car? Yes, my father always had a car. My father loved cars. And we used to have this car that was, you know, so old and it had a toolbox in the back seat. You know, it was raised up. And I used to love to sit on that. That was my seat. With the toolbox. Old car. And they had a progression of cars.

[34:34]

And they always took very good care of us. Back to the cars, but I want to know more about your mother's sense of fun. So you felt close with her. You felt loved by her. Yeah. Your mother unquestionably loved you. My mother would understand me, you know. I could always turn to my mother when my father, you know, was... and she would understand. She was sympathetic? Yeah, she was sympathetic. She was the bad cop and she was the good cop? Yeah. What did she tell you? Did she explain what was going on? Well, she'd say, um... I don't know. I didn't know what she said. But I do remember when I left home, and I was in art school, and she was sending me, it wasn't a while, five dollars. And she said, but don't tell your father. I said... What if your father was playing with you?

[35:42]

depression. But he treated your brother the same way? Yeah. My brother hated him. He treated us both the same way. But my brother was kind of favored because he was the first child and he was considered very intelligent Adults liked him. Other kids didn't like him. But adults liked him. How about with you? Did kids like you? Yeah. Did adults like you? Yeah. But they didn't treat me... I mean, I didn't get any special attention. He was special. He was special. How did he turn out? What did he do in there? Finally, he came back. He was working for, he was one of the first people to work for Aerospace.

[36:47]

And he was an engineer or something. But he ended up being a time management engineer, you know. And when I signed the last year of his life, which I hadn't seen in 25 years, And you saw him? Yeah. Last year? Yeah. And that was the last year of his life? Yeah. But he died that year? Yeah. And, um... He actually told me how much he kind of envied me for, you know, doing what I was doing and what I wanted to do. And I think a lot of his treatment of me was, like, he was the first boy I came along, you know, and got some attention.

[37:53]

Right, because he was all alone with your parents for four years. He was the only event. And in the end, you know, the building, the building collapsed. And so I came along and he got some attention. And I think that was the biggest reason why he treated me that way. Sibling rivalry. Sibling rivalry. So strong. And I just didn't understand it at the time. I couldn't understand why he was treating me so badly. But then, you know, in the last year of his life, when we finally got together after 25 years, you know, he told me how much, you know, how much he admired me and all this, you know, which never, he'd never said anything like that before. What was his name? But, you know, he stopped drawing, you know, and he loved music, you know, but he just never did anything with his art that he could have done.

[38:58]

And so it was always a really disappointing for him that he didn't really pursue what he, you know, he pursued the stuff that people pursue. I know there seems to be a pattern of that and then they do that and they succeed and have regular salaries and nice houses and all sort of stuff. Then they look down on their siblings who don't, who aren't so well organized in that way and feel extremely superior to them. It gives them a hard time while they're alive to make them feel like they're absolutely nothing and then before they die they tell them how wonderful they really are. It's really interesting. And even though we know this happens, it still hurts and it still feels wonderful to be acknowledged. Yeah. It must have been really good to have that kind of conversation with your brother. I can hear him saying those things repeatedly. Yeah. Were there important things that you had to say to him?

[40:00]

Things that were especially important to you, to him? Well, you know, by that time he had a lot done. Ah. So it just, you know, I don't know. I mean, you can't take no more. Right. Too bad. Okay, that's another story. Um, so we're talking, do you have anything else that you want to say about your mother? It's a different meaning of whatever comes to mind about her, right? Like comfort, whatever it is. Everybody liked my mother and nobody liked my father. I'd like to stop taping.

[41:11]

Who turns off?

[41:13]

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