Okay, you have to stand up. Well, you don't have to stand up. You can stay there. Sorry. So, I would like you to announce the Heart Sutra. Okay. Just the way you do. Through the thumb? Yeah. Great wisdom, beyond wisdom, Heart Sutra. That's not bad. Now the next thing is to project it over there, over there. I want you to look at John and say, John, I give you my guts. That's not bad, but the words are becoming more important than the sound. Like this is the most important thing in the world.

[01:15]

What you're saying is the most important thing that's ever been said. The most important thing that you may have ever said in your life. The most profound, important thing that you've ever said in your life. Great wisdom beyond... Look, it's still up here. Down here. Okay, okay, keep working on that. And what I would like you to work on is the quality of deep sound. Strong. It takes a while. to build that up, you know. So I thought that was good. I think you did very well. The concept is there. So, yeah? Earlier you said that the Kokyo maintains the baseline.

[02:20]

Not a baseline, but I mean by the baseline, it's your... It's E, not B-A-S-S, like the base, not low necessarily. Not necessarily low, no. I understand. So, related to that, in terms of volume, usually I start pretty strong volume, and then I cut back a little bit to blend with the Sangha. Should I maintain the same volume? Let them blend with you. Yes. You're the leader. And if you blend with the Sangha, then who's the leader? Right? So, you don't want to be the leader all the way through. So what Ross said, the leader has a tone that's in the middle, so the people who chant high can relate to that, and the people who chant low can relate to that.

[03:31]

If your voice is too low, then the people who chant high can't relate to it. And if you're too high, the people who chant low can't relate to it. So you have to get a pitch. that everybody can relate to whether they chant high or low. So it takes some work. It really takes some work. And I would like to just continue the training so that it doesn't get lost. I don't want to do this and then a year from now do it again. I want to keep doing it consistently. Because I think the quality of our service makes a lot of big difference in how people are inspired to practice, to be here. And it also makes a big difference in our own practice, how we do this. So if we think of when we announced the sutra, this is the most profound important thing I've ever done in my life.

[04:37]

projecting so that I'm inspiring everyone else to practice, to do this, then you will be able to find your own way. And the other thing is that some people have a really strong voice. That's the other side. They have a really strong voice, and it gets so strong that it gets a little out of the range. So someone has a strong ... you have a very strong voice, but sometimes it becomes kind of so concentrated that it's a little ... over the top. So you have to be able to restrain yourself a little bit. Whereas Walter has to project himself a little bit, you have to restrain yourself a little bit. So finding that place where it really feels good, feels right. And the other thing is the bell.

[05:45]

And as I've like to say, we've never hit. This is a heavy beater. There are two things about sounding the bell. I never say hit the bell. Sounding the bell is that you want to keep time. The bell is keeping time with the service, which is secondary to the quality of sound. The quality of sound is the most important thing, which doesn't minimize keeping time with the bell, but I just want to emphasize the quality of sound so that we're looking at the chart. ding, ding, and the quality of sound gets lost.

[06:47]

So it's just, you know, going through the motions of something. I want to go through the motions. I want the sound of the bell to reflect the depth of your practice. Let's hope it's deep. You don't have to do anything. So you want to get that wah, wah, wah. The overtones are playing with each other and creating a wonderful sound. And you don't have to do anything. The lower, this part, this is high, middle, and low. So if you want a high sound, you use the top of the, And if you want a deep sound, you use the bottom of the beater. It's just the way it works out. But the beater is like this.

[07:49]

It's like there's a pin going through between my two fingers. If you hold it tight, you stop the sound. And the same goes for the little bell. The little bell, people do it this way. It also should have ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya. If you hear a straight sound, it doesn't have any quality or color to it. They want some color. And the quality of the... See, there's a sound of the beater hitting the bell. and then some sound comes out.

[08:55]

You want to diminish that sound of the beater contacting the bell. And just listen to the sound that's produced by the action. So, bang, yeah, yeah, yeah. A little sound. A little sound of the beater hitting the bell. So that it doesn't feel like you're hitting the bell. It just feels like... It's like when you're hopping from one stone to another over the creek, and it's just real light, you know, rather than chum, chum. And if you just hold the beater parallel, more parallel to the bell, it's easier to get a good sound.

[09:58]

There's a whole range of sounds you can get out of this, but this is a really good bell, you know. And a garbage can lid you can get a good sound out of too, you know. That's true. Sometimes I think, we can get a better sound out of a garbage can than this. No insult intended. So John, you can be the Doan. And you can be the Kokil. Oh, I didn't bring my Zagu. Well, yeah, but it's better. Well, I'll get it. No, no, I'll get it. Just practice while I'm gone.

[10:59]

Okay, so, we'll do the heart sutra. Well, first we'll do the nine bows. Then, we'll just do this to serve us as we do it, right? And then, the nine bows, and that's the heart sutra. No, I don't know the whole sutra. Oh, you don't? Oh, I'm sorry. Well, we should have somebody else do it. Sorry. Who would like to? Yeah, Greg? What did you want to do? The Nine Bows? The Nine Bows and then go into the Heart Sutra as we do. Okay, so... Yeah, that's right.

[13:14]

Okay. That's good. That's a pretty nice sound. And then... Okay, that's good. He puts his hand on it. Doesn't get reverberation. Okay, so this will be the last bow. I'm not going to do all the nine bows. The last... A little too light. Watch you do that. Did you see the angle?

[14:20]

Yeah, too much angle. Well, look at what you're doing. Okay, go ahead. See, it didn't take hardly any effort, right? It's a nice sound. It could be a little bit bigger, but it's a really nice sound. Do it once more. It's pretty good. A little bit more sound, volume. Yeah, that's good. See, it's like two inches away, and he goes, boom, boom. Yes? Yes. So let's do the first bell. The ninth bell is soft, and then the next one is normal. So let's do that. So this is the ninth bell. Well, it's... Oh, you're not going to bow?

[15:29]

No, I'm just... I'll do it. I'll bow. I will bow. I will bow, because... because... because... you know... I know, maybe people know this or don't know it, but... in the bow, the doshi's hands go up and then they go down, and that's when you do the clunk. The clunk is when the back of the hands go down. That's clunk. But the ninth bow is... day when the hands are up? When the hands are up? I was always taught that it was when you're forehead hits. But same time, same thing. The hands go up when the forehead hits. Okay. I can't see either one. But can you kind of sense the body motions? I think that's what people do, you know. You can see the shadows on the floor. Oh, the shadow. Yeah, some indication, some clue.

[16:31]

Yeah. Does the Doan initiate the bow with the bell, or does the Doshi initiate the bow, and the Doan hits the bell? The Doan, well... I always meet the Doshi. The Doshi starts moving, and then I always wait for the Doshi. And once the Doshi starts going down, that's when I do it. I think you should do it a little bit before. You kind of anticipate, you know, I would, yeah, like right there, just right as soon as the doshi ... there's some leeway, you know, it's not, but yeah. So, and you know, what we used to say is that the people on the sides would follow the doshi, bow with the doshi, so that you just watch the person on the side because they're bowing, doing the same thing as the doshi. That's kind of what I was going to say. I think it's... If you're the Doan and you're watching the Doshi, you're connected.

[17:36]

If you're just looking at the bell and thinking, it's time for the next bell, then it's not a connection. And that doesn't seem... So I think watching for the first slight movement, is that what you're saying? And then my question earlier was, to bring out a louder sound, with the striker so close to the bell. It seems like a little ... a little bit of me has to go into that to make it a louder sound. Yes, that's right. There's some control and the whole body goes into it. See, if you're just doing it with your hands, then ... the sound of the bell should come from here. So ... The intention is going through your whole body and the sound you get is the sound you get from your intention. If you're just doing stuff with your hands, it's hit and miss. So the whole sound has to come through your whole body from here.

[18:41]

I don't know if this is good or bad, but I used to watch Ron play the bells and he If he does it, he moves his body slightly and he hits. I know. He likes that. And it works for me because it feels like I'm really ringing the bells. The bells are playing. I don't know if that's good. I'm not saying that you have to do it a certain way. I'm saying this is the way that works. that I want you to learn. And then if you have your own version, or your own way of doing it, it works just as well, there's nothing wrong with that. But some people do the Mukugio the same way, which I don't want people to do. No, it's like this movement. It's a thong [...] thong. Because if you use your whole arm doing that, it's like, there's all this motion, you know, that's being wasted.

[19:47]

You're just basically, you're just kind of controlling it, because it's a bounce. Boom, boom, [...] boom. And your hand is loose, the beater is loose in your hand. It's not like you're doing this, but the beater is loose. There's the balance. You go as fast as you want without any effort, really. I mean, there is some, you know, musculature, but it's a loose grip. It's not a tight grip. So the same goes for the bells. It's a loose... grip, not a tight grip. When you want to stop the sound of the bell, you put your hand on it.

[20:51]

So that stops all the vibes. So when you're holding it tightly, it inhibits the vibe. Okay, so this will be the ninth bow. Okay. So that's right. Okay, then. So just so I can click on it. Before the ninth bow, when the hands go down, that's the clunk, clunk. But on this last one, it's when the forehead touches that we do that 10. Well, you can say the forehead or the hands, because the forehead and the hands go up at the same time. No, but on the other ones, I thought you were saying it's the clunk when the hands go down. Clunk. So there's a little bit of timing difference. That's what I'm getting at. The bow is when the hands go up.

[21:54]

The clunk is when the hands go down. No, no, no. Yeah, but he's talking about other than the 9th bow. The 7th bow, or the 1st bow. Yeah, the regular bows, hands go down, clunk. Then when we get to the 9th, the bow starts 9th, the forehead touches 10th bell, big bell. Well, it doesn't matter how you do it. Yeah, that's right, that's correct. There's a difference. There is? Yeah, it's earlier. On the 9th, it's earlier than the 2nd sound. Yes, it's earlier because your hands are up. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so this is going to be... Are you paying attention to me or are you paying attention to the sound of the bell? A little bit more vibe.

[22:59]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to bow. Where are you? This is the first bow. The first bow? Yeah, just right. Okay. A little more sound. Oh, no. Yeah, even more sound. Yeah, that's better. And then the next bow. That's good. And then... Great wisdom, neon wisdom, hard sutra. That's good. Yes, yeah. Now, I want you to wait a little bit longer. before you hit the bell, I mean before you sound the bell.

[24:03]

So give his voice a chance to be solo. So to make it more dramatic. The drama is important. That's what we're missing, is the drama, actually. So let's do that again. Yeah, do the clock. Great wisdom beyond the wisdom heart sutra. Okay, okay, that's pretty good. Pretty good. You know, big bell, big sound, big, you know.

[25:08]

So, then we get to the end of the sutra and we get the little bells as well, right? Right. Okay, so, God, [...] God And may we, together with all of Sanjeevans, realize the Buddha way. More sound. Then another one. Another one.

[26:32]

Okay. When the chanting is, it's got to be louder. Yeah. So you can get a lot of sound out of it, but it depends, you know. In the morning, when we're just beginning zazen, the bell can be softer, you know, because you're trying to create a quietness, you know. But when we're chanting like this, you can get a big sound out of it. In Japan, they really hit the bells hard, the little bells. And that's another way, but it's not our way. It's great, I like it. When the doshi is up there and we're doing a little bell, you know, all wisdom, wisdom beyond wisdom, ding ding, I thought we wait until the doshi bows to do that first ding, because the doshi is not always with the chant, exactly.

[27:34]

What's the answer? At what time? Yes, because I'm not in sync with the bell at that point. You just go ahead and do it. Yeah, I'm a little out of sync with the bell at that time. That's just the way that is. Yeah. Yeah, you go with, yeah. But just with the chanting, basically, is the second wisdom. Right. But there's this thing about, do we go with the dossier or do we go with the chanting? When everything's working right, everybody's going with everybody, and it's not a matter of one going with the other. So that's what I would like to work toward, because I actually follow the bells more than lead them. But sometimes,

[28:36]

you should feel kind of like I'm leading, and I'm feeling like I'm following. So I think that's good, because we're both aware of what's happening. But I feel like I'm following the bills, actually. It's a matter of emphasis. Sometimes, though, I am doing the leading, but that's mostly I'm following. And I like that, I like to just follow, you know, go along with, because I don't want to, there's a rhythm to things, and I don't want to disrupt the rhythm. I want to follow the rhythm and be part of that. And if I'm doing something outside of that, then it wrecks the rhythm. So then how long should you hold That's good.

[29:40]

No, how long should it be? Just like that. Longer than you think. Well, um, bodhi svaha, and then what? Well, no, then there's the echo. Yeah, then the echo. Svaha is the last syllable in the sutra. There's a clunk. Yeah, but I think you're asking why to do the clunk. No, I'm not. I'm not. He should go on. My understanding is the Kokyo holds the note past the clunk, some interval. Yes, the Kokyo holds it past the clunk and that's up to them. Okay. But it's nice when it's held out long with a strong voice and then you get the feeling of the solo and the tutti. Well, you know, I always think about 2001, a space odyssey. You're the second person to talk to me about that today. That chord echoes throughout the universe, and it's held beyond the end of the piece.

[30:49]

Well, you carry the vibe around with you all day. But yes, the Kokyo carries it and then we all come in, when you come in. But the Kokyo carries and then goes into the Sutra, right? And that's when we come in. So, the longer you hold it, the nicer it is. I mean it feels too long, you know, but you can't because you're running out of breath. So you have to take a breath just before you do that. Right. Just before you do the end. So you can carry through. Yes. So you can do the same thing with the weave. Right. So when chanting, breath has to be conscious. You can't just, you know, you have to know where you're going to take a breath. It's like playing an instrument. You have to know where you're going to take a breath or you're not going to make it.

[31:52]

So, we don't have breath marks because we're doing this, you know, but you have to mark where the breath is in your mind. It's like, I'll take a breath at the end of this phrase. You don't take a breath in between phrases. Like when you're speaking, you know, because we're so used to speaking we take a breath automatically because we know what our mind somehow anticipates the length of our phrase. And my mind anticipates the length of my phrase. I didn't consciously think about taking a breath, but I did, because I knew how long that was going to be. But when you're chanting, it's a little different, because you know when, well, it's not that different, but you know, well, this is the end of the phrase and I'm going to consciously take a breath to be able to bridge that gap all the way over to the next thing. You have to plan out when you're going to take that breath. So let's do that.

[32:57]

But first, I want to... It's my understanding that the Kokyo maintains the sound and throughout, once the service has begun with the chant, going into various echoes, there's never any dead air. No, never a gap. There may be a gap somewhere again, but... Not everybody breathing can sing. No, not everybody's breathing at the same time. That's what keeps the sutra going. That's what sometimes happens in the Dai Jinrani or the Sando Kai in Japanese, you know, because everybody will take a breath in the same place and the thing stops. So fortunately, we take breaths at different times. Yeah. At the end of chant, sometimes we'll go down and hitch. Yes. We never do it. Never ever do that. Ever. No, we don't want to go down in the pitch.

[34:00]

I know what you're saying. Yeah, some people like doing that for some reason. I want everybody to just stay on pitch the whole time. Just end with it that way. She's talking about dropping the pitch. You can trail the sound if you want. I don't want you to drop the pitch. I don't know what else to do. Because dropping the pitch, I want everybody to train us to maintain the pitch.

[35:02]

If the Kokyo's chanting is too low, then people can't maintain that low a pitch for that long a period. And then the thing goes, da, [...] da. If it's too high, people drop it. And then they don't quite know where it is, and then this guy's doing this, and she's doing that, and pretty soon the whole thing just starts falling apart. So in real chat, the cook here says, this food of three virtues and six tastes, we offer to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and to all life in every world. World. Well, that's a different thing. I think that there are individual idiosyncrasies, you know. If the Kokyo wants to drop the pitch at the end or something, that's their thing, but I don't want everybody to drop the pitch. Right, so the Kokyo is doing a solo. Yes. But also, see this is important, because the Kokyo, what the Kokyo does is what everybody does.

[36:13]

So, and here's another thing, when the Kokyo is doing the echo, and saying all ancestors, and then when they say And they go up a little bit, you know, and then they come down. It's okay if they come down to where they were, but they never forget where they were, and they come way down here. So they're changing the pitch. And then people get lost. And then people go, well, where's the pitch? So that's the problem. That's one of the big problems. Yes? I've got to ask this. I know you're talking about Kokyos, but the congregation also shouldn't drop at the end of a chant? No. Okay, because I've always—this is the only place I've ever heard that done, and I assumed that you were supposed to drop it.

[37:17]

I have one other question about the congregation. Is it okay to chant on the fifth tongue? Yes, you can be a fifth apart or a third apart. As long as you're harmonizing, it's okay. As a matter of fact, it's good. Nice to harmonize. But often we get dissonance. So, that's a big problem. But harmonizing is good. Yes? You may have covered this already, but one of the things that I noticed is that My understanding is that when you're Kokyo, you're introducing a specific chant and then the chant starts. think their time is over. I know, that's it, that's why. We want to hear you say Avalokiteshvara. That's right, that's why we carry it over and the Kaukhyav doing their solo and then they go right into it. That's why you have to take a breath at the right place so that you can do that and then you start the chant.

[38:20]

Right. But the sangha often... Well, if they get used to... Kokyo should be able to do it at the time so that people aren't waiting. Well, there's no waiting. I don't know what you mean exactly by waiting. He was saying people don't wait for the Kokyo. To do it, they jump in. Because they're not used to the Kokyo carrying over. That's right. Yeah. If they were used to that, then they would come in with a Kokyo. But if the coconut drops dead after, you know, then everybody says, well, I guess it's up to me now. Well, can I just say that I think pitch is really important.

[39:30]

So, you have to know in your mind before you even open the book, or before you even sit down on the mat, what the pitch is going to be. That's right. You have to, when you've been given the book, you think, well now, you know, you have to listen in your head, where is that pitch? And you have to carry that with you, because otherwise, we've all seen it and it's really embarrassing. Well, see, often, like in the morning, the kokyo will give the excuse that, well, I'm sleepy. I didn't get enough sleep last night. I'm tired. But they'll be speaking into the book, you know, in their morning voice, you know. And so, you know, even if you're reading it, you should pick it up. You shouldn't leave it down there. O-O.

[40:50]

O-O. Pick up and project. And you've got to have confidence, that's why it's really important to have a good training before you do this, so you have some confidence. And you're out there in front of everybody else, you know, and what will they think of me? Of course, you know, I'm going to embarrass myself and all this, you know, so it's good to train yourself. I can remember when I was afraid to have my voice projected or heard by anybody, by people, I can remember that. I remember when I was learning the Heart Sutra and I used to chant in my car. I learned to chant in my car when I was driving and that's how I learned the Heart Sutra and that's the way I learned how to chant. Just listening to my own voice in the car. You have to be able to listen to your own voice and feel okay about it.

[41:53]

That's not easy for a lot of people. Not easy. Perhaps road rage, too. Road rage. Yeah, I'll yell at somebody, you know. But at Tassajara we used to send people down to the creek. Goans. And in Greece, ancient Greece, the orators used to put pebbles in their mouths. And swallow a few of them. Anyway, where were we? Yes? How would you characterize the difference between chanting and singing besides lack of vibrato? Well, singing involves changing pitch. And yeah, it's mostly changing pitch. Like the Koreans, you know, have a sing song for the chant, you know, which is nice, very nice. And other people do too. But in our practice, sorry, it's like very strong, instead of, you know, it's very strong and expresses the strength of your zazen.

[43:06]

That's really what it's about. And it's monotone. So that what's emphasized is not so much the words, but the strength, the power of your voice. Yeah? I think there's another difference too. It seems to me that when someone is singing, even if it's the monotone, there's a personal quality. Yes, well we all have a personal quality. Right, but to me, in chanting we're trying to You can sing on one pitch, I suppose. Yeah. It's a very masculine kind of chanting, actually. But I really like it myself.

[44:16]

I like it when the chanting is really strong and it just brings everybody together. When everybody's doing this together, it makes it very lively and energizing. The service should be energizing. And I think that's so that you lose yourself in it, you know? That's the nice thing about having horns and stuff. The horns lead the way and everybody just kind of goes with that, you know? But we have to be the horns. Well, maybe that's good for today. But I want to do this more often. I want to do it really often. And I want to work with everybody individually. So, I want you to come up to me and say, I'd like to practice with you for five minutes. Anytime.

[45:18]

I mean, I can always do five minutes, you know, with chanting or, you know, the bells. Yeah. Okay, that's another level. And you should talk to Andrea Thatch, and she will talk to you about that. This is all three, Tokyo, and Doan, and Mikulya. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes? I just have one question. On Wednesday, we're doing a new Chant of Peace. Oh. actually kind of hard because the meter of it is really difficult, I mean, with all due respect. What are you doing? We're doing Meili's peace prayer. Yeah, and how are you doing that?

[46:18]

That makes it difficult. It's just the meter of it is just hard. Well, do you have it here? We don't. We decided. Oh, we can't. Everything's changed. Well, it's not. You don't have a copy here. There's a purple folder at the bottom. There's copies of it. I'm sorry. But it just seems that something we should work on. This is it. Yeah, America. No, no. Yeah. May I be well, loving and peaceful. May all beings be well, loving and peaceful. May I be at ease in my body, feeling the ground beneath my seat and feel letting my back... Oh, my seat and feet. I see. May I be at ease in my body, feeling the ground beneath my seat and feet, letting my back be long and straight, enjoying breath as it rises and falls and rises. May I know and be intimate with body, mind, whatever it's feeling or mood. calmer, agitated, tired, energetic, irritated, or friendly, breathing in and out, in and out, aware, moment by moment of the rings and risings.

[47:25]

The language does get tongue-tiedy. Yeah, eventually it'll be, yeah. You know, one thing you could do is make it more, I don't know if this is the right word, trophic? Maybe that's not the right word. But, may I be peaceful, loving and peaceful. May all beings be well, loving and peaceful. May I be at ease in my body, feeling the ground beneath my seat and feet. Letting my back be strong and great. Strong breath as it rises and falls. I'm adding a meter. Yeah, so you can do that. Yes. That's fine. I, you know, even though we do have monotonic, it can be varied. I like it actually, but it's subtle, you know, it's not like big waves, but it's just kind of subtle swells, you know, and I think I like chanting the Heart Sutra that way myself.

[48:35]

I've done that before and it really feels good. It feels like it gives it some kind of more or flavor or something. Yeah, yeah. You want to do that? I mean, I don't know if we have time, but ... But anyway, think about putting in some kind of nice meter, where it's not singing exactly, and it's not speaking, but it has a sway to it. So this would apply to the other ones that you used to say, and now we're chanting, like the Hokyo Zamai and Meta Suta. So not as much. Because those we used to just recite. We used to just recite, now we chant. And now we're chanting them.

[49:35]

They're being chanted, but it's different. It has a different feel. We're not quite where we are with the Heart Sutra in New York. I don't know, I'm just bringing ... Well, we have to think more about it, you know, think more about it. We can do a practice with any one chant, probably, for an hour. Yeah, well we can do that maybe soon. Yeah, okay. I was just going to say, on Wednesday night when we're doing the peace service, there are usually 12 to 15 people and many of them are not people who've been here a long time. So, you know, it is getting familiar with it, etc. But I wonder if maybe there could be a time or two where, you know, some explanation could be given.

[50:41]

Yes. The thing is, I'm always doing books on Wednesday night, so I can't do that. But once we get used to it, I mean, once we decide exactly how to do it, then I think somebody can do that. But I think you just do it slower. If you do it a bit slower, it'll fall into the right rhythm. I think so, because each one of these chants has its own rhythmic qualities built in to the words, you know? and the phrases. So if you think about the phrasings, even though it's monosyllabic, it's like the heart sutra falls into, you know, we don't do that. We chant the heart sutra, but it has its, it's like a song more, you know. We do it according to our, the way we phrase things in English. Japanese is easy because of monosyllables.

[51:42]

So that's, you know, in the Mukugyo, easy. But we have words which are polysyllabic and connecting words, you know, so much more complex. So let's keep working on that and try and come up with what really works. It's satisfying. Yes? I remember when we used to chant the Heart Sutra in a steady beat. In Mukugyo. I actually liked that. Yeah. And it makes it easier to keep them monotone. Yes. And they went back to that in Zen Center. But I don't like it as well. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[52:29]

@Text_v004
@Score_JI