OK? Ellen? Make sure that it's clear. Should I talk or what? Yeah. So this is what I'm going to talk about. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. OK. Let me ask you a question while we're waiting. Okay. On Thursday night, we were talking about the ego being the office boy. And I asked about who was the boss.

[01:00]

Yes. Because there's no boss. Yes. And I'm saying, now, is that the same as the question, what was your face before your parents were born? Well, it's not the same question. Not the same question. This is a very good question because it's a koan. It's a different koan. It's a koan of... What's his name? I'm trying to think of his name. The one who asks the question and answers the question. Yes. What's his name?

[02:03]

Zuligan. It's the koan of Zuligan. Zuligan asks a question. Master. Then he answers the question. Yes. Don't be fooled by anybody. Then he answers the question. Okay. So which is the true master and which is the true Zuhigang? But not now.

[03:04]

Okay, so I'm going to talk about how I give Zazen instruction. So the first thing I do, when he gives us an instruction, is show people how to bow. Because before they sit down, they have to bow to their seat. So I'd say that bowing is a fundamental part of our practice. As you'll see, if you begin this practice, you'll see that Zazen is a fundamental part of this practice.

[04:06]

And so when we bow, we put our fingers together like this, and then we put our palms together like this, with our thumbs down, not like this. Even though I tell people, put your thumbs down, okay, But anyway, thumbs down. And then you put your fingers about 10 inches below the nose, but 10 inches out, just even with the bottom of your nose, and about 10 inches out. And then when you bow, you bow from your waist. And bow is actually at the bottom. So you pause, and then come up. So this is fundamentally how we bow. We don't hold our hands above this way, but down here.

[05:07]

This is more like Indian style, this is more Japanese style. And I don't say it's better, just the way it's done. And so the fingers at the bottom of the nose. So when we come into the zendo, We bow. Well, we walk into Zen and we bow to the altar. And then we walk in Shashu to our seat. Shashu is when you put the thumb of your left hand inside the fist and then the right hand over the left hand with the thumb on top and you hold your hands. right here where this indentation is, depending on whether you're a man or a woman, and then with your hands, with your forearms, even with the horizontal of the floor. So, and this is called shashu, and when we walk in the zendo or stand in the zendo, we put our hands in this position.

[06:16]

Okay, so when I walk to my seat, I bow to the cushion and then I turn around to the right and bow out. The reason we turn around to the right is so that we don't bump into each other. We're not going in different directions. Then we sit down on the cushion facing the wall. Now I'm facing out in order to What we do, well, let me tell you, we sit down in the cushion first, then we turn around and face the wall. But for purposes of instruction, we sit facing this way. So that's how I begin, by orienting people to bowing and sitting down. And after we sit down, we turn around and face the wall. And then when we face the wall, we cross our legs.

[07:20]

So when I talk about the various positions, leg positions, and I start with the full lotus and then work down so that I can talk about the way people really sit. So then I say, I'm just going to show you the various positions, but I don't expect you to take the extreme positions. You can work up to the extreme positions over a period of time, but I don't advise you to do that, because the asana period is 40 minutes or an hour, and you should take a position which is easiest for you. but I'm going to show you the positions. So for the full lotus position, you put your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right thigh. And this is the lotus position.

[08:24]

Yes? I'm telling you how I do this. So this is the way that I I'd say, this is the lotus position. You're not expected to do this. And then I say, this is the half lotus position, which is just the left foot on the right thigh. And it's best if your foot is as high up as it can go, because that's the most comfortable. Even though it would seem like down here is more comfortable, but in the long run, this is. I don't necessarily tell them that, but I'm telling you that. And then there's the quarter lotus, which is your left foot on your thigh. On your calf, I'm sorry. Yes, thank you. Your left foot on your calf. And then there's a position called the Burmese position, which is not crossing your legs at all.

[09:30]

It's simply one leg in front of the other. And then there's, what? Well, the left leg, up in the left leg. Right, so. And then, I said it was the campfire position, which is crossing your ankles. That's okay too. I don't talk about Seiza yet. because I want to encourage people to sit cross-legged. So, then I say, you should start out with a position that is most comfortable for you. The one that doesn't give you, the one that gives you the least problem, which, and this is good, campfire, if your knees don't go down, For most people, they don't, because most people are sitting up like this when they begin.

[10:36]

And I say, eventually, your knees will go down if you continue to sit. Eventually, you should give yourself the opportunity to let that happen, and there'll be some painfulness associated with it, because it's a stretch. You're not used to this kind of position. So you should be careful with yourself and give yourself plenty of time and a little bit of progress over a period of time is very good. Don't expect to do something quickly or advance in a fast way or something like that. Simply allow yourself to sit in a way that's easiest so that you can get used to sitting because it takes six months or a year to really find your own posture of sitting fairly regularly. I encourage people to take the easiest position of all those positions.

[11:40]

If you can't sit, if for some reason you can't sit in a cross-legged position, then there's what we call seiza, which is sitting on a cushion or a bench with your legs, with your calves down on the cushion behind you, with your feet behind you. and that's fine to do, but I wouldn't suggest doing that just because your knees hurt, because it takes some, in other words, if you don't keep working with the stretching out of your body by sitting cross-legged and take the Seiza position too soon, then you never really get past the difficulty that allows you to sit, the initial difficulty that allows you to sit cross-legged.

[13:13]

You know. You demonstrated very well what people sit like, what they often sit like with their knees up when they start. what do you say to people about that? I say eventually your knees will go down, but I remember what I was going to say. When I see people sitting up like this and I take a bunch of cushions and put them under them so that they're sitting up and that allows their knees to go down. Yeah, under their seat, not under their legs, under their knees, no, on top of their seat. So I tell them to sit on a high cushion, you know, big cushion, because your knees should not be below your waist. If your knees, I mean above your waist, if your knees are above your waist, then you can't hold your back straight, right?

[14:14]

So the main thing is to be able to hold your back straight and let your knees go down. So I will get some cushions and put them under them, and then they're sitting up high. Their knees are still like this, but the knees are not above their waist, so they can actually sit up straight if they want to. And then little by little, their knees go down. So I'm just talking about my own experience, right? I can't talk beyond my own experience. So I've experienced all the positions. When I first started sitting, I was like this, you know? And then Suzuki Roshi piled up some cushions for me. And then my knees were even with my waist. And then little by little, I noticed during the period, the knees going down, going down. And it took quite a while for that to happen. So I'm familiar with the process. We never suggested to people they put anything under their knees.

[15:15]

People just didn't do that at that time. Everybody worked through the problem. But some people said Cezanne, which is fine. So I tell people, I don't say, you have to do this. I'm saying, this is my suggestion, and this is the way that it works. If you feel that you need to sit Cezanne or some other way, do it. because it's your body. I'm not going to force you to do something. There are teachers who would force people to sit in full lotus. I remember Daibosatsu Zendo, New York, a lot of young guys were told by Edo Roshi that they should sit full lotus all the time, and they wrecked their knees. So they have to be very careful. A Suzuki Roshi is always very careful. Progress is something big, little by little, little by little you make progress.

[16:17]

Don't try to do something all of a sudden. So, you find a position that is comfortable for you, I mean reasonably comfortable. And then as you begin to sit, over a period of time, your leg will want to move up. If you're sitting this way for two years or something, eventually you say, yeah, that's more comfortable. So let that happen. Allow the feeling to happen that your leg is kind of moving upward. So I don't go into that detail with people, but I'm talking about that to you. So let's say you're sitting in whatever position you're sitting in. You take a position that you want to sit in.

[17:20]

I don't sit in full lotus anymore, but I sat in it for a long, long time. So then, your knees are at least on the level of your waist, and so you can hold your back straight. After we find this position, then I tell people to put their hands upside down. This is the rhetoric. This is the way we're taught, although this is not what I do, but this is the way we're taught. to lean over to the right, far to the right, and then lean over far to the left, not fast, slowly. You're not trying to break your neck, you're simply trying to stretch your body, and if you do it slowly, your body will stretch out nicely.

[18:24]

This should be done slowly, and stretch over as far as you can. It's good for your knees as well as everything else. This basically is for your knees. And stretch out as far as you can. And then a little less. And then a little less. And then a little less. Until you're sitting up straight. So, what I do, I go through a routine where I do that. I stretch over this way as far as I can, and then I stretch over that way as far as I can for 30 seconds. I hold each one of those for 30 seconds. And then I do this for 30 seconds, at least counting 30. And I do this for 30 seconds to really keep the body stretched out.

[19:25]

And then I do this. I push my lower back forward. Lift up my sternum and do this for 30 seconds. If you do that for 30 seconds, it allows the moisture in your body to enter your spine and lubricates your spine. It keeps your back healthy. We don't sit zazen for that reason. But it certainly helps. It's very good. So then, I show people how to sit up straight. And I say, put your hands on you like this, and pushing your lower back forward, you can lean forward like this, and then sit up straight slowly. So the lower back is forward, and then just rotate your head. Don't move it like that, but rotate your head, and that puts everything in place, so that you're not leaning your head forward.

[20:35]

You're simply rotating it. That's right. And that's the posture. That's the posture you want to maintain all the time in zazen. What happens is that it's hard to do because it takes an effort. So what happens during the period, this is for you, I don't say this to people, but you start letting down. And then it gets kind of comfortable to sit with the back in and out. So I have to keep reasserting this all the time. all the time keep pushing your lower back forward. I suggest that you sit through a period of Zazen with your attention on pushing your lower back forward, keeping your sternum lifted up and your head on top of your spine so that the balance, you're looking for the perfect balance. You're not leaning to the right or the left.

[21:37]

You're not leaning forward or backward. You're using the least amount of effort to do the most work. This is a conservation of energy. Doing the least amount of effort to do the most work. So you find that place in your lower back that's holding you up. And you can let go of the rest. What part of this body is needed to do this. My elbows are not needed to do this. My shoulders are not needed to do this. My chest is not needed to do this. Simply the lower back. Just pushing the lower back forward and lifting the sternum slightly is all you need. That's conservation of energy. Sometimes when I go to adjust people's posture, the arms are stiff, the shoulders are stiff, the back is stiff.

[22:40]

There shouldn't be any stiffness. There should all be flexibility. I don't say this to people because it's just first Zazen instruction, but sometimes I do. This is what we do during Zazen, basically. is keep reasserting this posture like that because it's always changing. You may think, well, don't move, but you're always moving. You're always micromanaging your posture. That's the basic thing in Zazen, is to keep micromanaging your posture. Not everyone teaches this, but this is the teaching of our school. You keep micromanaging your posture because it's always changing. And this gives you something to do in Sazen. But if you do this, you leap off the tongue with lots of energy at the end.

[23:42]

This is what induces energy. So then, when we have our posture established, we put our hands together like with the left palm inside of the right palm, with this middle finger touching the center of your right palm, even with that. So, the joints of your fingers are in line with each other. The middle joints of your fingers are one on top of the other. That's right. The middle joints, there's the middle joint, they are on top of each other. And then, with the thumbs, you make a circle so that the tips of your thumbs are facing each other. It's not a true circle, it's circular. It's an oval, oval, oblate spheroid.

[24:46]

But we call it a circle. And then, you put your hands against your abdomen. Now depending on how you're sitting, if you're sitting in the full lotus, your hands can just about touch your heels. But otherwise, you have to find a place for your hands. You shouldn't lean on your heels. You should not rest. It's okay if it touches, but you shouldn't be leaning on it because you shouldn't be leaning on anything. So when you put your hands together in the mudra, cosmic mudra. Thumb tips are touching lightly, almost not touching. It's almost like you have a thin piece of paper in between the thumbs. The mudra is kind of like a barometer. It shows you where the tenseness is in your body.

[25:51]

or it tells you whether your body is tense or loose or what. So when your thumbs start to fall apart, you know that the tension is waning and it's too lax. If your thumb tips are pressing against each other, it means that there's too much tension in your body. So by just working with your thumbs, you can adjust the tenseness or looseness or that variability in your body. The thumbs, if you put attention on the thumbs to hold them very lightly, just barely touching and really concentrate, then the rest of your body can relax, because this is the point where the energy goes from one part of your body to the next, to the other.

[27:00]

If your vasa is very strong, and you hold your fingers, it sounds about an eighth of an inch apart, you can sometimes feel the electricity breaching the gap, like a spark plug. So, very lightly touching, and if you concentrate on it very lightly touching, your shoulders will relax, your upper back will relax, and when your lower back is pushed forward, then your stomach is like a rubber ball. and you're lifting up and posture's really straight, then you can kind of feel that elasticity in your abdomen. You can feel how elastic that is to, it's like a rubber ball, and it just feels very comfortable.

[28:07]

So this is the way you find your comfort in zazen. And I can't stress this enough. So during Zazen, we maintain this posture by letting, by holding, pushing the lower back forward. People sometimes say pushing the buttocks back, but your buttocks won't go back. You push your lower back forward. And lift up the sternum and keep your, don't look up at the sky. Keep your head rotated, which means you're tucking your chin in, basically. And you can feel your neck stretching in the back. Sometimes I kind of adjust a person's chin, right? Because they're looking up like this, so I go, like that.

[29:10]

And the person's like, oh God, I'm choking. Or something. Adjusting posture, you know, is a little tricky because a person, when you adjust someone's posture, they feel that they're out of position. Because the wrong position you had feels right. And so when you adjust the posture, it feels wrong, but it's really right. So it's a suggestion for you, right? Because you'll adjust somebody's posture, and then they'll say, oh, thank you very much. And then they'll go back to the old posture. Don't say thanks, please. It's a thankless job. So we're sitting there, and you can, if your shoulders are tense, you can feel the, just visualize the tenseness draining out of your back, or draining out of your shoulders, draining out of your arms, and draining out of your legs.

[30:20]

Just feel it. visualize that tenseness draining out. There's a difference between tension and tenseness. Tension is what holds things together. Everything exists in tension. But tenseness is what's extra, what you don't need. So you let go of what you don't need so that you're relying on just what you need. And you keep working with that. So during Zazen, you go over all the points of your posture. Is the mudra okay? Is it going like this, or is it going like that? Is my back collapsing or changing, or am I leaning either right or leaning to the left? Are my teeth in the right position? Is my tongue in the right position? I'm just going to say about that. So you hold your jaw, closed, and I used to say, the front teeth behind, ordinarily your front teeth, the upper teeth are in front of your lower teeth, but everybody's jaw is a little different, and the more teeth you lose, the harder it is to talk about that.

[31:44]

but the tongue is at the roof of your mouth. So, and then, am I, is my body getting tense? Is my body staying loose, flexible? So, you go around checking all the points of your posture. The way I was taught was when you sit with your elbows out, and you should visualize an egg under each armpit, raw egg. And then if you go like this, You don't have to keep your elbows out like that. It's not exaggeration. It's simply, you're not clutching your body with your elbows. Keeping your elbows at a reasonable, comfortable position, but not clutching your body. So, this is establishing the posture. I probably left a few things out.

[32:50]

you pay attention to breathing. So posture is first, breathing is second. So once your posture is established, then you let your mind, your attention follow the breath. So without controlling the breath. So, In order to establish your breathing in your lower abdomen, in what feels like your lower abdomen, you can take a few deep breaths, like through the mouth. And that expands your lower abdomen. And then you exhale. You can do it silently, of course. I'm just doing it loud for emphasis. And this is exhaling, I mean inhaling, this is exhaling, inhaling.

[33:58]

So you do that two or three times to establish your breathing below your navel. This is where you breathe all the time during zazen and your daily life, and when you sleep. No matter what you're doing, this is where you breathe from. And when you find that you're breathing up in your chest, take a deep breath and bring your breath down to your lower abdomen. So you're always breathing here. I ask then students all the time, where's your breath? No, I'm not sure. You should always know. You should always be sure. This is the place of calmness and the place of stability. in a place where you actually, this is the vital spot of your life. So, if you're not breathing here, you're losing some vitality and you're becoming top-heavy.

[35:05]

So, to always keep the energy down, down, down, down. When you breathe, after you take a few deep breaths and establish your breathing, then you breathe through your nose, allowing yourself to breathe through your nose. Simply, the breath, when we breathe, we don't follow the breath all the way down and out. We simply follow the breath as the rising and falling of the lower abdomen. I don't know how many abdomens there are. There's only one. It's the lower part of the abdomen. So it's like watching the rising and falling of the abdomen as breath. Sometimes people say, well, Kaizen says, watch the breath at the end of your tip of your nose.

[36:14]

That's okay, but that's not our practice. Dogen's practice, or the practice that we follow, is to watch the rising and falling of your breath in your lower abdomen, which I think is very good. The reason why that's good is because it puts your attention here, rather than up here. So, you allow the attention to follow your breath. as the rising and falling of your lower abdomen, of your abdomen, in your abdomen. So, paying attention to the posture and always continually asserting that posture, which, if you do it correctly, should give you a lot of ease and not be tense. and then letting your attention follow the breath.

[37:19]

I may have left something out, but, oh yeah, eyes. Eyes are open. They can be half closed, maybe open enough to let in light. Because when we sit zazen, we sit facing the wall, usually. Sometimes we face the other way. But it's not necessary to find some specific place to look at, because although the eyes are open, you're not looking. You're not seeing. Seeing is seeing. So there's just simply seeing, simply hearing. You're not trying to listen to something. You're simply allowing hearing to hear and allowing seeing to see. So sometimes the wall will disappear.

[38:21]

Sometimes it will reappear. Sometimes a bug will walk across the wall, but there's nothing special to focus on. Simply the eyes are open and simply seeing is seeing. So, sometimes the eyes will close. As a matter of fact, most of the time they probably will. But, because eyes get tired, but the point is to make the effort to keep them open. So, do you have any questions about Alan? Yes. So I teach new people to count their breaths. And I say, after you inhale, you exhale.

[39:26]

And when you exhale, you count one. And inhale again. And on the exhale, you count two. So when you make the count on the exhale, up to 10. And when you get to 10, you start again with one. If you lose count, just come back to one. Doesn't matter what number you're on. The main thing is that counting breath is like the handle on a cup. You don't need to hold the cup by the handle, but the handle makes it convenient. So we teach people to count their breaths. they don't always have to count their breath, but counting breath helps to keep your attention focused on what you're doing. Even if you get to 100, you wake up, oh, 100, so that helps you to wake up and you come back to one.

[40:28]

So I suggest that newer students count their breath for a while, learn how to do that, when they feel comfortable counting their breath to not necessarily count it, but when they need it, it will automatically cut in. When you're having a hard time or something, one, two. So it's not like counting sheep. It's like when you count one, there's nothing but one. When you count two, there's nothing but two. So you can count one with your breath as the length of your breath, or two with the length of your breath. So it's not independent, something like keeping score. It's simply an aid to help you concentrate. It could be just one, one, one, or it could be mo, mo, mo.

[41:33]

One is just like move, actually. There's a lot of similarities. Okay, well what I did, I talked about teaching them how to bow first. That's the first thing, because that's what they have to do to get into their seats. But it's not long, it's just, you can listen to tape. And then I just go into posture and breathing. So this explanation is for you. This is not exactly, I wouldn't spend this much time talking to the students.

[42:35]

I would make it even more succinct, and not so much explanation. Can I make preparatory remarks, like, this is, we're going to teach you forms, this is our... Yeah, you can say that, yeah. Well, no, I don't know. I would say our practice is very formal. The practice in the Zen Do is formal. And the main thing is learning how to bow. And then when you go into the Zen Do, you observe what people are doing and just pick that up. So that's what I tell them. I don't explain what to do in the Zen Dojo. I just say, you go into the Zen Dojo and you watch what people are doing and you pick it up. And this is an important part of our practice, which we don't always, we think we should teach everybody everything, but it's good for people to just pick up on stuff.

[43:45]

And then they'll ask questions. And I always tell them, don't hesitate to ask questions. I'm not going to explain everything to you. You just, when you go into the Zen Dojo, you pick up on what people are doing, and then you ask questions. That's how you learn to do stuff. Thanks for the review of the project. I think that's really helpful. To me, there's a disconnect going on here. starts around 9.20 and we finish at 10. And then I kind of stand outside and come in for lectures. So people that are there for instruction really aren't going on to do what we're talking about. I understand that. Well, you know, this comes up once a year.

[44:46]

This question comes up once a year. Go ahead. No problem. There's nothing sacred about the time. Nothing. It's just, this is the time that it works, given all the other things that are going on. It's fine to do that, you know, if you can figure it out. I have no problem with that. No problem. I mean, you know, I used to do it in the afternoon, on weekday, you know. Do you ever say anything about why? Why? Why someone should practice? No. I never say that. I never tell them why they should practice. If someone asks me a question, I'll answer it.

[45:53]

If someone asks what is the purpose of this, then I'll say something about that, but I don't go into a big spiel about it. We only have 45 or 50 minutes or something like that, and it's enough to just get Zazen instruction done. And if somebody asks, at the end I say, do you have any questions? I say that. And sometimes I showed him how to do kin hymn. Yeah, I used to do that. But I didn't have this, I don't think when I was doing it, I never, I don't do it here, I used to do it on Dwight Way in the afternoon, and it was not a timed squeeze. But if somebody asked the question, well, what's the purpose of this, or what, then I'd say something. But I don't say, this is why we do this, no. You can if you want. I'm just telling you what I do. Do you think it's a good idea? What? To tell them?

[46:54]

Yes. What is the purpose? Huh? What is the purpose? To, you know, wake up to your true self and take all the needs. Okay. Okay. I think if you just tell them Well, I probably do too, but usually people ask the question, but I don't usually, you know, I don't say that's wrong or bad, that's fine, you know, if that's what you want to do. I'm just telling you what I do. Richard had his hand up first. But it seems like maybe it's something you practice when you talk about it or something like that.

[48:00]

No, that's a good question. Yes, I usually tell them what to do. That's right, I do that. I say, and then thoughts will come into your mind as you're sitting. And you simply let the thoughts come and go without attaching to them. I do talk about that. That's part of what I talk about. I'm glad you reminded me of that. Yes, I do do that. Thoughts come up, but you keep bringing your attention back to posture and breathing. And simply that you don't try to chase the thoughts away. You don't make a judgment on thinking. There's no judgment on thinking, you simply let go of the thoughts and come back to posture and breathing. It's very important not to make judgments of good and bad and right and wrong, but simply let go. pay attention to what you decided you were going to do, because zazen is your intention.

[49:22]

When you sit zazen, you intend to sit for 40 minutes without moving your position, but it's okay to move your position. If you feel, especially in the beginning, it's okay to move your, if it hurts, if you have a lot of pain and stuff, move, you know, and take a different position, that's okay. But at some point, if you continue to practice, you will not want to move. And then, so I leave it up to them to decide when to not move. Yeah, you can say... Sometimes you can say that, depending on who's there and what they need to know. But, you know, there's the main body of stuff, and then there's the peripheral stuff.

[50:30]

So, the main thing is stick with it to get the main body of stuff. And then decide what peripheral stuff you can deal with, depending on how much time you have, who's there. I remember Dwight Way, I used to have people do zazen after the instruction. I have not had people ask the why question. Yes, oh yes, that's good. I usually talk about that, actually, without them having to ask. I say, when you sit, you will probably feel some painfulness in your legs. And if you fight the pain, it will just become worse. So to let the pain just become one with the pain is what we usually say.

[51:35]

to allow yourself to become one with the pain, then there's no opposition, because opposition is what creates suffering. So, if you allow the pain to simply be there, not as pain, but as a sensation, then you can accept it. So I talk around that. One of the reasons that we're having this as an instruction now is that we've been talking about Well, I have to say that not everyone has an affinity for the practice. Very few people have an affinity for the practice. Matter of fact, in the whole history of Zen, there are not that many people who actually practice Zen. because not everyone has the affinity to do that.

[52:39]

So what we do is present what we have and see who has that affinity and encourage those people who have it. And some people investigate it a little bit. But I think it's good to also say that It's not easy. I think it might be good to say, you may or may not have an affinity for this practice, but if you do, we'd like to encourage you to come back and practice with us. Something like that. To mention that, to bring it up. and you're welcome to come back again and do this again, or you're welcome to come to the zendo and see how that fits with you and so forth.

[53:40]

Ideally, it would be good to give zazen instruction in the zendo and then do zazen. That would be ideal. But you can only do that in the evening or during the day or something. You can't do it combined with something else, some other activity. and make it, you know, work that well. So, that's the way it is. When I talk to new people, I often say there's many, many forms that we do, forms that we follow. Yes. But also, there's no form Nazis, or, you know, there's no... Forms are just forms. I tell them the forms are to help us to practice. That's what they're for. But if you don't do something, if you don't bow in the right way, if you don't sit there, nobody is looking at you. Some people may be looking at you, but that's their problem.

[54:44]

It doesn't matter that much. You just use the forms to help you. That's right. And I used to talk about that. I say that you may feel awkward participating in this zenda where everybody seems to know what they're doing except you. But if you can just observe and go along, people will help you. You're not considered bumbling or something. I think that's a good point, you know, to actually say, now is the talk, and so when you go into Zen Dojo, you just do what I just taught you.

[55:54]

You bow, and then you go to the cushion and bow, and so forth, and sit down and practice Zazen during the talk. I think that's okay, too. Yeah, I mean, as a matter of fact, that's kind of what we do, or should do. I mean, you practice the rudiments, you're not facing the wall, but it's not as perfect as if it was just Zazen. That's true. But the only other alternative I can think of is to do it in the evening. But nobody wants to do that. People don't want to do that. Well, sometimes people say, I can't come on Saturday, so we ask somebody to do that. Yeah, but that's different.

[57:20]

That's not ordinary, ordinarily. But, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we can have it in the evening, but maybe one or two Zazen instructors would feel okay about that, but you'd have a lot less Zazen instructors, which is okay. I used to do all the Zazen instruction myself. One or two people could do it, and that would be okay with me. If they would always do it, and do it well, that'd be okay. But I'm open to working it out, if there's something different. We can experiment with things. We've done it all different ways in the past. And we micromanaged this whole thing, and this is the time that seems to work best, given all the problems. I know it seems funny. But I would like to do it with somebody, somebody who's been doing this.

[58:30]

That's good. I would be encouraged to sign up with somebody. Sure. Very good, actually. I would like to just actually just sit in on it and take the instruction and just be there. Yeah, I think it's good for people to sit in on each other and then, you know, give some feedback to each other. I think that's a very good idea. Yeah, if you want, just any Saturday, just go in there and do it. Yeah. I do think it's a good idea, because sometimes people also are giving God an instruction and they get off, you know. And then if they have someone else, they'll say, And they can ask, do you think it was okay? You know, you could have talked about this or that or something.

[59:32]

I also, in fact, I always say, the first thing I'll say is that I teach it this way, but come back another Saturday if you don't like what you heard. I wouldn't say if you don't like what you heard. I mean, if you want to get another point of view. Yes, yeah. And one of the things that I think is very repetitive is that a lot of the people from other countries that were attending were very interested in this topic. Because they're really small societies. Well, we also have a video, but how was that conference?

[61:00]

I'm glad, thank you for going, and Marie. That's right, yes. It's not just a steady job, it's a long-term economy of medication and service that becomes much shorter.

[62:50]

People are very uncomfortable with service, and you've got to do it for how long, and you've got more spending balance. You know, I understand, and I've talked to Galen about that, you know, how some are actually Christian, fundamentalist Christians, and they come, you know, and they, blah, blah, blah, you know. But my feeling is, you do the thing that you want to do, and those people who come do it, won't do it. And those people who won't do it, if you accommodate to everybody, pretty soon you lose everything. That's my feeling. There's some give and take, some accommodation, but basically, if you don't have faith in what you're doing and start giving everything away, then pretty soon you don't have anything. And if you have faith in what you're doing and you stay with that, then that will draw people to your practice, eventually.

[63:56]

Eventually, you may be by yourself for 10 years, but eventually people will be drawn to that, and then the practice itself will begin to grow, even though you may have problems. But I really strongly feel that way. As soon as you start compromising too much, then you're doing what people want you to do instead of them doing what you want them to do. But there's a give and a take, of course. and make it sound right. And there, that's what they end up doing in some overlap.

[65:06]

So pretty soon, everybody starts putting in their ideas, and you just have this conglomeration of new age stuff. Anyway, I think it's time for everybody to eat lunch. Thank you very much.

[65:24]

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