Here we all are, practicing Buddhism, something you didn't expect to do, at least a few years ago. So you, just to be able to do that, you've come pretty far. To be willing to commit yourself to something which you had no plans for. Fa Yen, I think, Fa Yen, I forget. He was traveling and his teacher asked him why he was, what he was doing, and he said

[01:14]

he didn't know. His teacher said, not knowing is pretty close to it. I say that in various ways all the time. But how true that is, and how much we, practicing Zen in America, have to find our way by not knowing, it's pretty hard to understand how true that is. And how you can guide your life by not knowing. I have to do three things. We have to do three things. At least I'm supposed to try to do.

[02:57]

I should try to do three things. First is to establish some opportunity to practice, some community and facility, facilities for practice. And second, to establish some teachers. And third, to establish the teaching, so that it has some chance, Tsukiroshi's way, has some chance of lasting. If we establish it for a thousand years, it may last a hundred or fifty. It will require many people to revive it if it is to last more than one or two or

[04:06]

three generations. The person I talked to you about yesterday, Gensha, Xuanzha, he was a disciple of Sepo. And Sepo was, I think, along with Baso, Sepo, and someone else, were the teachers Tsukiroshi was most, felt closest to. Now, Umon's, Umon, young men, is a disciple

[05:16]

of Sepo too. And Sepo, he started practicing when he was nine, he shaved his head when he was nine years old, and was ordained when he was thirteen, and ordained again when he was twenty-eight, different kind of ordination, and finally was enlightened when he was forty-five, by his Dharma brother, Ganto. And they, as you may know about Sepo, he went to Tozan about nine times and to other teachers seven times. Anyway, he practiced very thoroughly, even after enlightenment, he practiced very thoroughly, trying to make sure, make his life and way

[06:27]

of life sure. And he had maybe fifteen hundred disciples, or fifteen hundred people in his assembly, and about fifty enlightened disciples. And his disciple, Umon, had over sixty enlightened disciples. And Gensha had, Umon, you know, was the person who wouldn't let anyone take notes in his lectures. So one guy had a paper robe. Because he, Umon, was pretty, he was pretty far out, you know, and he, he's same lineage as the Blue Cliff Records, so Blue Cliff Records features him a lot. And he's also the person who really started koan study,

[07:31]

giving the students sayings from other teachers. So he was famous for his own peculiar sayings, and also for using other teachers' sayings. You know, like I might say, Suzuki Roshi said, it is not to be found outside this universe. And then if, what Umon would do is say, for many days and months and years, just try to penetrate that statement. If you keep focusing on a statement of a teacher like that, it is not to be found outside this universe. Eventually you'll penetrate it, young man said, Umon said. Or what Gensha statement, what world do you want to put your body and life into, or hands and feet into? You know,

[08:47]

he presented one statement, Chashan, I believe, statement. Try to find me in the hundred grasses, or find the emperor in the hundred grasses, various forms. So Umon would present that, Chashan said, try to find me in the hundred grasses. And Umon would say, answering it himself, how are you, how are you? And then he might point at the pillar and say, oh, Chashan has become the pillar. This is, again, some way to get you to see phenomenon hidden in phenomenon, river flowing beyond heaven and earth.

[09:50]

Anyway, Gensha had thirteen enlightened disciples, and his, he started Xuansha school, which then became known as Fa-Yen school or Ho-Gen school, which lasted several, three hundred years about. Pretty long time, but disappeared. We're just a little tiny bit of time. And Fa-Yen, the disciple of Gensha, Xuansha, had, Fa-Yen had sixty-five enlightened disciples and about a thousand people in his assembly. And you may know, I told you, Xuansha's statement, Bodhidharma did not come to China,

[11:11]

and the second patriarch did not go to the West, to India. When he left, you know, that's what he said when, when Seppo said to him, why don't you travel and study? Because Seppo, you know, had traveled and studied, he just went everywhere, wandering about, having nervous breakdowns and stuff. Actually, I don't think he had nervous breakdowns, but he had a very hard time getting it. He just couldn't get it, what was going on, all this stuff. But I don't think he cared. But his fellow disciple, Ganto, got to him. Anyway, Seppo said, why don't you go and study? And Xuansha said, I said, Bodhidharma did not come to China, and the second patriarch didn't go to India. And then later, a few years later, you know,

[12:20]

he stayed with Seppo so long, a few years later when he was ready to leave, saying something about being independent and so forth. And, you know, there's some story, independent or not independent, both independent and so on. Anyway, as he's leaving, he stubs his toe, I told you yesterday, outside the gate, and he practically swore, you know, God damn it, Bodhidharma never came to China, he hollered, and the second patriarch didn't get transmission. And he was enlightened, you know, at that time. So he went back and stayed with Seppo. And then when Seppo was, Seppo was only 13 years older than him. Xuansha didn't start practicing until he was 30. Until then, he liked to fish. He was a kind of fisherman.

[13:24]

And at 30, he decided to abandon the world or change his life. And he went and at the monastery, he would just eat and then go and sit. That's all he did all day. And he was older than most, than Uman and the other disciples. And they all treated him as something remarkable. Because he, maybe because he was a little older, he just ate and sat. Anyway, when Seppo was 45, you know, people encouraged him to come out in the world. And finally, at 49, he said he would, and he went to Elephant Bone Mountain.

[14:32]

And Seppo means snowy peak, much like Sierra means, I think, white ridge, snowy ridge. So he was called Sierra or Seppo for this mountain, which always had snow on the peak. And the first few years, he and Xuansha and others, just all they could do was build these buildings for people, you know, to practice. It took several years. And then so many people came, there wasn't usually enough food to go around, and everyone had to work very hard to get enough food. So Seppo's community became known for its industrious, you know, balanced, active life. Very harmonious, industrious community, Seppo is famous for.

[15:43]

And he established the community much like his first teacher. He finally received, is considered an heir of Togsang, you know, dramatic Togsang, but actually he, real teacher is probably Ganto, his Dharma brother. But he studied with so many people, so he, he's always the example of superior vessel takes a long time to make. So Seppo's practice penetrated everything, all his activity and life. Anyway, Xuansha stayed with him and they established the monastery at Elephant Bone Mountain. And later Xuansha went and had his own place, and they both died in 908.

[16:50]

So I guess maybe Seppo was 44, 45 when Xuansha joined him, and Xuansha was 31 or 32 or something like that. I don't know why I'm telling you these stories, except that Tsukiroshi always told these kind of stories. And I always got them mixed up, you know, because, you know, he would tell them under the Japanese name or the name of the mountain or the name, his ordination name, or sometimes, I don't know where he'd get the names. And now they're, you know, they occur,

[17:57]

of course, under Chinese names. And now Tom Cleary has this new system he's using, which you can't identify anything. I guess it's close to the pronunciation, but it's really hard to figure out. Everybody's name starts with X, or it seems so, and I can't figure out. But I always, under some name, I'm reading along, and I think, oh, yes, that's the guy Tsukiroshi talked about, who did such and such. Like Fayin, after being enlightened and pretty good, he was leaving his monastery and was going out the gate, and his teacher came to the gate with him and said, there's various stories, you know, about worlds separate and two, and so he came to the gate with him and said, you always say everything is mind. Is that stone in your mind or not?

[18:59]

And Fayin said, it's in my mind. So his teacher said, why does a traveler need a stone in his mind? So Fayin was stumped. So he came back in, stayed a while longer, and Tsukiroshi told that story, various stories, you know, turned up. I wanted to say, well, by the way, when we get up from zazen, we shouldn't linger in whatever we've been in. If your zazen has been wonderful, don't linger in it. Get up. Okay? And I had a very nice, sleepy morning with you this morning.

[20:07]

I didn't get a chance to sleep much last night, so it reminded me of another kind of sasheen, which we don't do, which sometimes I wish we could, which is, you sit all the time. You sit all night. And it's a very nice way to do the sasheen, but most of you can't do it, because your legs won't do it, you know. And unless you can sit and sleep, it makes a very nice, drowsy sasheen, you know. But there's two problems. One problem is, too many of you still are involved in psychological sleep. Some of the oldest of you, too. Some of you barely have your legs crossed, and you're asleep already, you know. It's amazing how fast you can go to sleep. You're still settling yourself,

[21:16]

and you're still asleep. But you were wide awake a minute ago. That's psychological sleep. And I don't know why it gets worse as it comes toward the older students toward the front, though there are a few of you back there who seem to sleep pretty well. But there's different kinds of sleep, you know. Tired sleep, or just not being able to get through that place which usually we fall asleep at when our mind does a certain thing. But psychological sleep, which comes at a certain stage in practice. If we did sasheens, which allowed us to be drowsy, you know, I don't think those of you involved in psychological sleep would be able to get through it. Because drowsy sleep of sasheen where you're, you know, if you sleep less than three, less than four, or certainly less than

[22:22]

three hours, it's pretty hard to be sitting bolt upright all the time. So it's another kind of sasheen, you know. But even in that kind of sasheen, by the end of it, you usually can sit up all the time. So anyway, because of psychological sleep, and because you don't, some of you would have to stay all night with your knees up, you know, and I feel sorry for you. A few times we, I've tried sitting all night with you. So many of you, it just wipes you out, you know. It's no fun for you, you know, at all. You know, the next day you're just bumping into things, staggering, staggering around.

[23:27]

And you're not refreshed at all. So until we had a group who had been, in Japan people sit, you know, one thing, they're not as, their intention in practice is not as developed as ours on the whole. But their equipment for sitting is much more developed. And you can get a room full of people who can sit for seven days without getting up much. And then, I mean, they may take breaks. In fact, when I was at Daitoku-ji, almost everybody got up at the intervals. But still they could sit all night. Maybe changing their posture sometimes, but still they could stay on their cushion all the time. So anyway, I guess we can't do that kind of sashimi.

[24:40]

Eventually more, we won't, probably people who come here will all sit very well and none of you will sit seiza and stuff like that. Because you'll, people will start sitting earlier and have more experience even before they come to Zen Center. But that's not the case. I have great respect for the way of life, the Zen way, the way of, Zen way of life. You know, I like this life very much. And I feel very lucky I have a life that has Zazen and Sashin built into it. It's, we, in America, we, in the West, we seem to have lost the importance of spiritual practice in life. So people work, but they try to do everything for some purpose.

[25:55]

Every, I feel everyone should do yoga or something, Zazen. Now people are exercising a lot. And that exercise, they, you know, it's coming out of disillusionment with the medical profession. We have depended on, you know, doctors and so forth to take care of us. We so much depend on, in a contractual state, I think, depend on professionals to take care of us, stupidly depend on professionals to take care of us. But now people are beginning to exercise and since we don't do anything, you know, also because of transportation, we've lost the sense that just walking between places, just going somewhere, is a spiritual exercise. So the people who are starting to exercise, you know, jogging and so forth,

[27:06]

do you know that a fourth of all the shoes sold in the United States now are jogging shoes? Isn't that amazing? It's crazy. Anyway, it's caught on because I think people find it's a actual, a spiritual exercise. So now people are making something about ecstatic experiences football players have when they connect a pass and things like that. It's very good. But it's also misplaced spiritual exercises. Having lost the sense that we need some activity in our life, like chanting or respecting the Buddha or doing zazen. And I feel very lucky, again, myself, because, you know, as a child, I couldn't believe in

[28:21]

anything. And I made, and I thought, because I couldn't believe in anything, I couldn't respect anything. So I, you know, as always, and I wanted, you know, I used to, you know, I say, maybe all of you did this, but, you know, I used to take Bibles and things and go into churches and say, if there's a God, strike me down and stuff like that. And, you know, my idea was, maybe, maybe God would prove himself for my friend, at least. I could be a good test case. Then my friend would believe in God and I'd be, and I'd be christened, some bolt of lightning. Anyway, those, those kind of,

[29:26]

um, that confusion of belief and believing in things with not respecting things, you know, I think we have to respect our society, even though it's pretty bad. And then, so Zen seems made for a person, you know, like me, who can't, who had no theistic, or could not find any substantial thing to believe in. So Buddhism says, you know, respect emptiness, respect non-substantial reality, subsum, respect non-theistic world.

[30:26]

So, nearly identical with the teaching. You know, if the teaching can't be grasped, you know, can't be explained or described, you know, it becomes an apprentice system, or it becomes as Uman was making it, you know. If it's in something we feel from our teacher's words, so Uman used not the sutras, but various teacher's words to try to get his students to penetrate. So, we need something in our life, which we do for no purpose. That's a spiritual practice. If you do yoga to get something, it's not the kind of spiritual practice I mean.

[31:39]

And as I, [...] said to you yesterday, I found that, you know, having come to the end of my rope, you know, that I was practicing Buddhism, independent of whether I could do it or would be successful at it. And I was practicing with Suzuki Roshi, independent of whether he accepted me or not. For me, of course, I wanted our relationship to be mutual, but if he didn't accept me, that was to me also mutual. I don't mean that I didn't accept him, I just meant, well, that was the way it was, you know. That is what I would find the relationship then. I'd been with him almost continuously. Always I was with him, if I could be,

[32:43]

for about four years. And he took me to Los Angeles to meet with the Japanese community down there in congregation. And they were always asking me, are you Suzuki Roshi's, you're Suzuki Roshi's disciple? And I didn't know what to say. I'd never talked to him about it. So on the plane back, I asked him, can I say I'm your student? Can I consider myself your disciple? I asked him. And he said yes. I was surprised. But it didn't actually make any difference to me. My decision to practice was independent of him and independent of whether I knew anything about Buddhism or could sit zazen or anything. And for a long time, I couldn't sit zazen. My legs wouldn't do it.

[33:50]

So I've come to respect Zen way of life very much. And Zen way of life is like just how you walk. You should walk perhaps like Caesar returning to Rome. Caesar didn't want to be anywhere else. Everyone was cheering or like baby getting across the room for the first time. Why shouldn't walking be like that? You can tell then in Japan, you can see Zen people in downtown Kyoto walking. They walk like Caesar or baby. Very just plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk. I'm not going anywhere.

[35:09]

Just walking along. So again, I like this way of life very much. We eat in a way that respects our food. And we need something, I think, to remind ourselves. So you don't take just eating for granted. You know, our society may not be so great, but food comes to us by our society. Language comes to us by our society. I think we have to respect our language, study our language, respect our food, study how it comes to us. In this way, I think you'll come to respect our society.

[36:17]

Even though, you know, it may be functioning in profound way in spite of itself. So again, this Zen way of life, not to respect everything, to respect emptiness, to respect things without any theistic or meaning, just to respect the food that we eat or the hundred grasses, and not to be too attached to things, able to take or leave things. And if we had some huge endowment, some big endowment like Japanese temples have,

[37:33]

endowment of attitudes of students and families and society, and endowment of buildings, marvelous, beautiful buildings already built. So a group of monks in Japan doesn't have much to do except clean a bit and sit zazen and get just enough food for, money for food. They don't have to worry about attitudes of family and society and how basically the basic resources of society come to them, and the buildings and so forth, and land, space. Because if we had such an endowment here, we could be bringing Chinese, Japanese,

[38:36]

Zen Buddhist way of life to America. But we don't, and for the most part, we are very lucky that we don't. For we have to find out how to support ourselves and exist in society. So it's like you're going to a party of old friends. Their way of life isn't your way of life anymore, exactly. But they're still your old friends, so you have to find some way of participating. You're not exactly the same, and yet you're not too different or too special. So our practice at Green Gulch and the city is like that,

[39:44]

and the bakery and so forth. Finding some adjustment in American way of life. And the first step of creating the opportunity for practice and creating the facilities, the way for us to have a chance to meet together and practice together. Mostly, I hope it's done. I feel it's done. Now it's mostly tying up the loose ends for the next two or three years. So next step is teachers, and after that, the teaching. I think this way of life, where we don't believe in anything, but we respect everything,

[41:03]

is very valuable for our society. And when we respect our meals, we respect our food. In a way that other people understand it, too. The one who brings us the food, and everyone who eats, actually. So I feel very intimate with Gensha and Seppo and Uman, and those people from Seigen Gyoshi's line, actually. Tokusan. Gassan. And way of life, they found it. And how we'll do it, exactly, I don't know. I'd like to actually

[42:09]

see, you know, the way we're doing it, the example we're making, whether we like it or not, may work better in small parts. And I'd like to see some Zen teacher running a corner grocery store somewhere. Selling groceries and Zazen in the back. And working in various students, working in the grocery store and customers. And that's all, just a few people. Anyway, I want to see if, how our Zen way of life, and Sashin life, can,

[43:11]

respecting everything, not believing in things, not believing in any substantial reality, can participate, just be part of our ordinary life. Not too much set aside in temples. So, this way of life, attention to details, mindfulness, Not going anywhere. Each thing independent. Not doing things for some purpose. Not knowing.

[44:19]

Not knowing is close to it. Not caring. Stones around in our mind. Not caring is close to it.

[44:58]

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