Information and so forth that starts the minute you look at your parents' faces. That there's no way that you can ever sort out what's natural or not. And if a baby was brought up by wolves, as some people say has happened, such children seem to have, whatever we know of them, an inability to think the way we do at all. They have no mental space like we have. But this mind, as Buddhism understands it, is the source of all of our thinking and acting. So we can say, again using this term, it's our fundamental endowment. And it does seem that some people are naturally or accidentally enlightened to this fundamental endowment.

[01:22]

And it's also the teaching that this fundamental endowment, if you know how to let it, will enlighten you. So how do you put your fundamental endowment in a situation where you realize this fundamental mind? And that's also what these koans are trying to do, is to put you in that situation. And these koans also try to bring you into this situation. Yes. I just wanted to ask, if you do some Christian meditation, for example, and plus readings of philosophers, do you think you can get some...

[02:27]

Do you want to say that in German? Yes and no. I mean, I feel that different is different. That whatever you do has a different result. Not better, just different. So if you practice some other lineage even in Buddhism, you can feel the different flavor of that person.

[03:40]

I mean, it's a kind of cooking, and if you put just one different ingredient in it, the soup tastes different. Now, I've read... Yes. Yes. What can I say? But I don't think that if you change the recipe, you're going to get the same kind of soup.

[04:44]

Again, I don't think it's better or worse, it's just different. And my experience of reading various contemporary philosophers, some who talk closely about this, My experience is that in two or three paragraphs it's very close to Buddhism, the next paragraph is very different. And they usually don't have a sense of practice really present in it. What you're dealing with here, when you're talking about Buddhism, is a particular kind of teaching developed over a couple thousand years, 2,500 years, with at various periods all the intelligence of societies working on it.

[05:48]

There's nothing equivalent in the world except perhaps Western science, which is only 100 or 200 years old, depending on when you count. So it produces a certain kind of way of looking at things. which you can like or not like, but it's extremely developed. Somebody else, yeah. What do you think is missing when you practice Zen Buddhism? Which ingredients is missing? What ingredients are missing when you practice Zen Buddhism? Yes.

[06:49]

Let me say that we saw this different, but not necessarily better or worse. You're perfectly certain of a non-discriminating mind, right? Well, I don't know. Maybe trying. On the other hand, you chose religion for the reason you just gave. It's your system. Doesn't automatically mean that you necessarily think it's the best. Or you chose it. Thus discriminating against others. Well, let me say about what you brought up first, missing. I don't know what's missing. Maybe some... I like the flavor of other practices. And I've had fairly active contact with some Sufis. And I like the kind of person it seems that is produced by practicing Sufism.

[07:53]

But really my experience is nothing's missing. And I practice with a mind where I try to base my mind in a feeling that just now is enough. So I'm sure something's missing, but I know I'm quite happy. And what you brought up? You're sure something's missing, but you don't miss it. Yeah, that's right. Something like that. You can't do everything. You can't do everything, right? You have to be something in particular. I, at some point, I mean, I studied Buddhism a lot. or some, and then I met Suzuki Roshi.

[09:08]

I at some point in practice with him just decided that whether this was right or wrong, or he was a good or bad teacher, this is what I do. And I made the decision sort of existentially. In the sense that I felt I have to make some decisions, so I'll make this one. I think some of us get married that way, have children. And I just decide to stay with it. So I don't think about whether it's good, bad or indifferent. I mean, I had a time where I'd compare it to other teachings and think it was better or worse, but I don't know. I'm not really smart enough to do that. And you also have to know the other teachings from inside, which I don't.

[10:25]

I only know this from inside. Something else? Yeah. The state of mind that you were talking to us about this last hour was concretely based on work with this coin. To me it seems as if If you want to reach that state of mind, why do you need more courage then? Doesn't that solve any... Because if you're in that state of mind, if you're in that unfindable... Mind of unfindability, yeah. Then can you... Do you need any more courage or are you there where you are anyway? Okay, you want to say that in German? This mental state that Roger told us about, he explained it to us at the heart of the choir, where we received the UZ yesterday.

[11:43]

And my question is, once I have come through the practice with this choir in this unfathomable state, can I then solve every choir? Why do you need even more problems? Okay. My experience is that I practiced in the first years with Sri Krishna mostly on faith. He gave lectures sort of like I'm giving. And I understood bits and pieces or saw bits and pieces. But it was enough to have those bits and pieces work in me, but I didn't understand it the way I do now. So my experience is, once you have certain kinds of realization or see into a certain number of koans, all the koans become pretty clear.

[13:04]

there's sometimes some types that take a while to open up, but basically they all become pretty clear. There's a clarity and logic to them from another point of view. That's one experience I have. I have another experience that every time I open a koan, even when I've worked on a lot, I don't understand the bloody thing at all. I say, what's this about? Oh, Jesus. I mean Buddha. And then Christian comes to me with a translation and says, what's this? And I say, no. so I have to generate the state of mind of the koan to understand the koan and that's not so easy it takes me a little time to do that and then the koan becomes clear and also every time I look at a koan it's new

[14:36]

And I find that I'm bringing the ingredients of my daily life and everything to it, and my own situation is changing every day. So the way the koan works in my particular ingredients will be different two weeks later. Because it's not just a state of mind that you have. It's a state of mind that you have and [...] Yangshan has and Yanmin has and so forth. And so my state of mind is not Yangshan's, although there's an overlap. So when Yangshan walks in, or Yangmen, it affects me. Just like seeing you does, or seeing Eric does. So it's not like there's some idea of some experience, and from then on nothing changes, everything's fine, it's not like that.

[15:59]

At least that's my experience and understanding. It's your coming at everything at a certain point from a different view than was your habit before you practiced. But that different view is always opening and changing. Okay. I can maybe come back to that. Okay, I think we should take a break. And after the break, maybe... 20 or 25 minutes, I'd like us to get together and have some discussion of this abstruseness. Or if any of you have some experience of this or what you think is the experience of it, you could talk to each other about it. So when you come back from your break, just gather in small groups with maybe eight or so people in each.

[17:25]

Okay, thank you. Last question. I want to look at substantiation from a point of view and call it expectation. So substantiation is not only something which you do individually, but you do it as society and others expect you to substantiate in a certain way. So if you start to substantiate different than others do, you have big trouble. So how can you learn to substantiate in a slightly different way? That's what he means by the third. Way follows way. That you can substantiate with others, but know you're doing that. Yeah, but how can you do that on a practical, everyday level? I would be interested in some suggestions. Okay, you want to say that in Deutsch? I would like to look at it from a different point of view and call it expectation, so that you don't see the substance alone, but the soul together with the other.

[18:42]

And if you start to see the substance differently from the other, then you get a lot of difficulties. The question is, how can you do that, how can you achieve this state, how can you achieve this state, even if you don't heal the other? Okay, you can discuss that in your group. Thank you. And you want to bring to the attention of all of us? Yes. I have a question. Are there different kinds or different modes of substantiation? For example? I don't think we have it. Deutsch? I never thought about it.

[19:45]

I think this idea just points out our... is to get us to notice... that moment where we affirm certain kind of reality to things. If you don't notice that moment, you can't get on the other side of that moment. So is there anything? Yeah. This other side of the moment, is it connected to the sense fields? Well, in the koan here it says the eight... The Mount Sumeru is unmoved by the eight winds.

[21:00]

That means the sense, the eight vijnanas. And this koan is trying to describe this mind. So it says Mount Sumeru, or here we can say this mind. cannot be covered by the sky. Earth cannot support it. Wind blowing cannot enter. Water poured on it cannot wet it. This is describing this realized mind of unfindability. Only the diamond eye can see through it at a glance. But then he turns it, or it's turned. But seeing, if you see the seven openings, two, four, six, seven, the face, in other words, or the eight holes of our body,

[22:03]

As soon as you think in those terms, it's shattered. Then after that, it's on the eyebrows and eyelashes, etc. Which means it's not gone away. It's just divided. And you can have actually the experience of bringing it back together. And the big difference in meditation is when, although you may have this experience, your habit energy keeps drawing it apart. And to being substantiated in the sense fields into the distinctions through the face and our desires and so forth.

[23:30]

But at some point, there's a shift in the basis, we say, and the direction is changed. This mind has its own cohesion and comes together, pulling away from the distractions. Do you see that difference? Do you understand that difference? Yeah. Now if my eye sees something, these windows say, the more I substantiate it, and say, oh, that's a window, and those are reflections, You're not actually saying that to yourself, but your mind and body are relating to it as if it's just a window and just reflections.

[24:58]

And of course our mind is that way most of the time. But it's not the eye that does that. The eye just sees reflection and wood color and so forth. So we could say that the eye is in the immediacy of a valid cognition. And then the mind adds and dismisses, oh, it's just the windows, just reflections. Now, Basho, the haiku poet, has a poem which goes something like, let the pine, let the pine tree teach you about the pine tree.

[26:14]

From the bamboo, learn from the bamboo. Now this is a kind, you know, a nice little poem. But it's rooted in this Buddhist tradition of having the patience to let things speak to you. And so if you say, oh, the tree or something, you're not letting the tree speak to you. So the eye is involved in a, just seeing things, is involved in, we could say, a valid cognition. As soon as the mind says, oh, that's just this and that, it's not wrong, but we can call it an invalid cognition.

[27:14]

Because it's in fact affecting you and treating these things as if they have an inherent existence. and in some ways it gives you a slightly dishonest feeling all the time because by that you exclude so much and you don't listen to the world So someone again asked me last night, how do we know when something's real? And maybe we could say, when you find yourself listening to the world. And you have an experience in yourself of validity. You feel confirmed by things.

[28:30]

Actually here and confirmed by things. And this is, we could call, a valid cognition. Okay. Sorry, I get to say so much sometimes. I like, as you know, I like this learning from the side or the feeling of you talking with each other, which is to me more important than you're talking with me. Maybe eventually we'll do seminars that are 50-50. What you just said, is this another sort of nourishment or kind of nourishment?

[29:34]

What I just said? I hope so. I mean, that the things are talking to you. Yes. Then you can feel nourished. Yeah, you feel nourished. When you feel nourished in your immediate situation, you can usually, that's also a sign of a valid cognition. Yeah, you can trust what happens when you're in a situation where you feel nourished. But that just means the brown of the floor nourishes you. Whether what I'm saying is nourishing, I don't know. Sometimes I worry. And it's actually difficult for me to talk about something that's a little hard to understand.

[30:37]

And I wish I could make it more interesting sometimes, and sometimes I can. But if I try to make it interesting, then I'm turning into a performer. So sometimes I just have to present it the best I can. Yes, anyone else? Yes. I have a question about belief. Can you speak English afterwards? I have a question to belief. Is it belief? Yes. When I establish a relationship to somebody like Jesus?

[31:58]

Like Jesus? There's no one else like Jesus. It's good, though. Maybe you see everybody. Oh, each one of us is like Jesus. That's good. Okay, yeah, please. And this is a feeling that has a similarity with a time when I felt great humility. Where a great spirit unites everything somehow. The feeling I have is similar to demut. It's connected with deep humility before a big spirit mind. Good one, come. Could one compare this to a valid cognition?

[33:14]

Yes. I think there's a saying that the water of realization can't be absorbed by the ball of pride. The ball of pride. I lost the verb. The water of realization cannot be absorbed by So the more you have feelings of separateness or comparison, it doesn't allow any realization to come into you. So I don't know, a kind of...

[34:15]

Humility or ordinariness is necessary in practice. Not finding yourself different or better and stuff like that. So should we sit for a few minutes and then have dinner? Dinner is at 7 o'clock. And some people have suggested we have a meeting this evening at 8.30, say, for half an hour, 45 minutes.

[35:33]

Do you want to, or should we just have the evening off? The evening off is probably better, no? I have to leave the room so you tell the truth. Okay, I'd be here at 8.30. talk to you about this state of mind of unfindability. And there's a certain hubris and speaking about it because in general it's

[36:39]

The teaching of it comes from your side. In other words, you, if you're practicing together, something comes up in you and through that feeling and then the showing of it, the state of mind is shown, not so much as taught. At least that's the tradition because there's a kind of intimacy or such a great intimacy with yourself and the world through this mind. So to talk about it like something, you know, an entity in the world is some, you know, maybe it's not so good.

[38:07]

So in this practice though I'm trying to create the conditions where you're practicing on your own and can discover these things with some guidance from your own practice. In general in the beginning practice is pretty undifferentiated. Mainly you do it and you for various reasons make an effort to continue doing it. And sometimes you're less distracted and sometimes more. And sometimes you have a taste of a certain freedom in your mind And then at some point, we could say a second stage of practice, your practice becomes much more differentiated.

[39:29]

You can really see the skandhas and your vijnanas. See may not be quite the right word, but feel in distinctness. And that's the time in which a certain kind of teaching can be done, because you can hear differently. And the third, if we think in this way, the third stage would be your practicing not through differentiation but through thusness. There's a feeling of thusness or sameness or equalness to, evenness to everything. Not something boring because it's not a comparison, it's just a kind of... everything has a kind of brightness and equality.

[40:52]

Now, when Almost everyone reads or studies the Heart Sutra or chants it. When it says, O Shariputra, it is because of his non-attainmentness non-attainment this well anyway bodhisattva through having relied on the perfection of wisdom realizes a non-attaining state of mind a bodhisattva through having relied on the perfection of wisdom realizes a non-attaining state of mind. This non-attaining state of mind is this humility you spoke about. A mind where you don't have desires because everything you already have

[41:54]

Es ist ein Zustand, in dem du keine Wünsche hast, denn du hast alles schon. And everything is very intimate, so you don't feel a lack. Knowing that, you dwell without thought coverings. And to dwell without thought coverings means you dwell on this side of substantiation. Substantiation puts a film of thought coverings on everything. So when you chant the Heart Sutra at this point it says it means you've somehow taken this film of thought coverings off everything. And doing that you don't tremble anymore.

[43:12]

It's not fearful anymore. Now, when you practice meditation, sometimes you can feel a kind of film or clear veil that you can see into it, you can see the thought coverings you put on everything. And when you're on the side of no thought coverings, When you are in that mind before you substantiate you can often tell because there is a feeling of deep satisfaction or bliss or gratitude

[44:26]

or clarity. And these are the main meditation experiences that are seeds of your development and practice. And even in the beginning stages of meditation, when your meditation is quite undifferentiated, Sometimes you'll have that feeling of satisfaction or some easeful or blissful feeling. And if you can remember that feeling, that feeling is the feeling of being free of thought coverings. So even in the first stages of practice, which are quite undifferentiated, you have this taste of clarity or ease. A taste of this more fundamental mind.

[45:40]

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