So I heard that Andrea has a question. I heard that Andrea has a question or a comment. I started talking with Nicole during the break about my attempt to get this imaginary consciousness, which I don't have yet. I started speaking in the break with Nicole about trying to get a feeling for this imaginary or imaginal consciousness, which I don't yet have that feeling. And I... So, on the one hand, I know from trauma therapy that we work with active imaginations, from which we know that And on the one hand, I have experience with imagination from trauma therapy, where we now know neurologically that the imagination is no different than an actual event neurologically.

[01:21]

Das heißt aber im Unterschied zu dem Wort Vorstellung haben wir das abgegrenzt, also Vorstellung und Imagination, wobei die Vorstellung mehr gedanklich ist und die Imagination eben dieses volle Bild mit allen Sensorien drin ist. So now in German, we made a distinction here between the German word Vorstellung, which is... You two made that distinction. Yeah. Which Vorstellung would also have to be translated, I think, as imagined. Yeah. But the German connotation of the word Vorstellung is that it's a nearly mental event, somewhat abstract, and that it doesn't have the depth and the sensorial fullness that goes along with the actual practice of imagination. In a sense that happens in people suffering from trauma, you mean? No, just in general. The practice of imagination, the way it's practiced, is that all the sensory channels are involved in that imagination.

[02:28]

Yeah. So that was one axis that we then named, that of the full picture and the thin, this mental, which for me is like a paper frame or two-dimensional in contrast to three-dimensional. So that was one spectrum maybe which we discussed that the spectrum of the, she's now using like a two-dimensional imagination, which is a little thin in its feel, all the way to the depth of the three-dimensional, sensorial imagination. And then I have a second axis for myself, which I know because I know this process from falling asleep, that I am stuck in this image space and don't really disappear, discover or ask myself, or how does it all come together?

[03:29]

And then the question is, which I'm exploring, that we discussed a second, that's called the spectrum or dimension or something that I'm very familiar with from exploring falling asleep, for instance, because my thing is I tend to get stuck in that imaginal realm and can't actually, from there, I still can't go to sleep. Yeah. And so here I had a feeling that there's a shift involved from having a sense of actively doing the imagination in some sense, that there's a sense of agency or something like that. the shift to letting that be, that sense of agency.

[04:34]

Does anyone else have comments in this vein? You were part of the discussion. Got anything to say? Not right now, but I might in just a moment, yeah. Yes. Yes. So I was thinking of a German word which I think would be translated as to dose off. Yeah. To dose off. Is that like daydreaming sort of? Yeah. Yeah. No, she wouldn't say that.

[05:48]

No, it's more like dissolving in all sense fields with a sense of a bright vibration or something. Good. in English, and if that is something that helps, how you experience it, and what helps to get closer to it, this flowing can. And I don't know if there's an equivalent word in English, or maybe if that helps to approach what we're talking about, this feeling of, like, vibrating. I don't know, dozing, dozen. I don't know how to translate. Well, dozing off in English doesn't have much meaning beyond falling asleep inappropriately.

[06:49]

So if you doze off driving, you probably have a car accident. It's interesting how these... Sun baby. You sometimes talk about sun baby. This remembers me very much. Maybe what she means is close to sun baby. Yeah. oder beim Aufwachen. Und beim Aufwachen erlebe ich es mehr als an Land geschüttet werden, So exactly this intermediate space between falling asleep and also waking up. And in waking up, I feel it more as a coming ashore.

[07:57]

Like waves that slowly come ashore. It's interesting that these words these experiences rather, these experiences which are so intimate to us in our going to sleep, waking up, etc., the words don't quite can fit in different languages. Well, from the point of view of a Zen practice in relationship to what you said, I would start out by making a distinction between conceiving, conceptual, and cognitional or cognitive. I would start by making a distinction between Das Konzeptuelle und das Kognitive.

[09:14]

Ich mache das, es bleibt nur so, bis mir etwas Besseres einfällt. Konzeptuell und kognitiv. Because in English, a conception is more like a picture. And cognition is mental activity that engages and you learn from and learn through. Okay. And so you might even, from the point of view of Zen practice, Zen practice is something like exponential cognition. The assumption is that not just that mind and body are related, but mind and body are inseparably part of intelligence and knowing.

[10:18]

So thought by itself means almost nothing. It's arranging linguistically things. And the cartoon, classic, classic and cartoonish, image exemplar. If in the engagement with the teacher, If the response or statement is primarily conceptual, you may be in trouble.

[11:31]

If you're a mean old cartoonish Zen master. If there's not a bodily presence of what you're saying. then it's not taken seriously. So what I meant by exponentially cognitive and what is, I think, important to recognize for lay practitioners If you're practicing in a Sangha center, and I think that may be a more accurate term than monastic center, So if you're practicing in a Sangha center, which is inspirationally perhaps related to monastic practice,

[12:41]

But it's not necessarily monastic in the sense that you're ordained and all that stuff. But a Sangha practice center is designed to engage you in a mutual practice which you are constantly put in a place where your only choice is embodying a cognitive stance. Yeah. We have a... My own feeling is that even if you're strongly atheistic or scientific or something, and you're a Westerner, still Judeo-Christian views are embedded in your activity.

[14:25]

In the Chinese conception, which would be Let's call it East Asian conception of the world and the human. In the Chinese East Asian conception of the world. the human being is absolutely given no more importance than a leaf on a tree.

[15:26]

I mean, if you happen to be a human being and you have children and family, you like them maybe more than leaves, but still, conceptually, they're just items in the process. There's zero sense that humans are special creations. Now, in the West, I mean, the human being is separate. I don't, you know, I know very little about, I was brought up as an atheist, so I don't know what I'm talking about. But man is created, man, the woman is not created from dust, the woman is created from a rip, right?

[16:38]

Poor thing. and man or with his helpmate Eve is created separate from in the image of but separate from God And hence can make mistakes. Like thinking Eve is cute. I'm sorry to speak to... Or like apples or whatever. Okay. But my own feeling is that sense that we humans are separate from creation as well as in creation gives us a freedom to make mistakes and a freedom to be an individual.

[18:01]

In that sense that the individual person has freedom to make a choice. I think it's led to our Western European and American culture in a very positive way. In the East Asian conception of the human being, it's all about regulation. and not really about freedom. The overriding conception in East Asia is something like your own body. Let's use that as an example.

[19:11]

das übergeordnete Verständnis in Ostasien ist, und da nehmen wir mal den eigenen Körper als Beispiel, deine roten und weißen Blutkörperchen usw., die haben keine Freiheit, sondern die müssen sich lieber vernünftig benehmen und das tun, was der Kreislauf braucht. Okay. So it's an ongoing process, but it's tightly regulated by the requirements of your organism. OK. So that if that's the conception as it basically is, in my opinion, in East Asian culture, yes, everything is a process.

[20:42]

But that process is ruled by a kind of Harmony, like your body, is ruled by its organic condition. Society is ruled by a heavenly harmony, which is basically regulation. then there is this feeling of harmony in the East Asian, as if your body is an organism, an organic organism. In the same way, society is understood as an organism that basically I'm not trying to speak intellectually or philosophically. I'm speaking in the spirit of Gregory Bateson. Most of the problems of the world, he said, result from how we think, Tim.

[21:45]

And it's interesting to me that the concept of process without end, not process with a goal, just process that's always going on, It's interesting for me that this idea of a process without an end, and not a goal-oriented process, a process with a goal, but simply a continuous process with a goal. fits very well with the scientific and phenomenological view of the world. And the Buddhist version of that is pretty good. But the East Asian, Chinese East Asian version of that is highly locked into regulation. But the Chinese-East Asian version of it is very much linked or even tied to the concept of regulation of the rule.

[23:20]

Yes, you can see it in contemporary Chinese society. It's highly regulated with very little freedom. And regulation is justified by harmony. So I can define interdependence as interindependence, intermergence, et cetera. Ich kann wechselseitige Abhängigkeit, also die Interdependenz, kann ich definieren als wechselseitige Unabhängigkeit, Interindependenz, oder auch als gleichzeitiges Auftrauen, Interemergenz. But Chinese cultural Buddhists would not do that. Aber ein kulturell gebundener chinesischer Buddhist würde das nicht tun.

[24:22]

There's no interindependence. There's no inter-emergence where something new happens. All is folded back into harmony. So that is, I think, a significant difference which we have to undo from East Asian Buddhism if we're going to have the Buddhism that makes sense in the West. Okay. Whoa. So that was all to say in relation to exponential cognition. in this view in which we are no different than the leaf, if you have that view, you look at the world as interconnected in a way we just don't have a feeling for it.

[25:35]

Although this Kleenex box is made of paper. And this is wood and that's wood. We don't think of them as the same thing. We may know this paper is probably made of wood. But in the more East Asian yogic view, it is initially seen as the same and not different. So there's a basic intuition built into the bodily mind That's different in our two different cultures. Okay, so back to... You know, I'm just exploring with you, and I'm happy to hear how to speak about this.

[26:58]

Because there's conceptual, there's cognitive, but cognitive is nowhere near strong enough. It's so fully assumed that the body is inseparable from the mind, that the body is the mind. When there's no thought that the animal kingdom, the animal animals are different from us. They're just, you know, us. And I was just reading a text on botany and biology recently, which says all life is descended from one single complex cell that occurred only once in four million years.

[28:30]

So the kind of difference is, everyone sees difference. But the question is, do you see those differences as really different or actually a version of the same? Now, if you really see them as the same, dann ist nicht nur der Körper Teil deines Geistes, sondern auch die Phänomene, die Erscheinungen sind Teil des Geistes. And just to say mind actually belies what I'm saying.

[29:46]

Because here the identification is with living activity, but not even living, non-sentient activity, which is also living. There's a famous statement which Nicole spoke for a while in the last seminar. Where the practitioner says, I've heard about the teaching of non-sentient beings, but I don't hear it.

[30:53]

And the teacher says, although you do not hear it, do not hinder that which hears it. So practice then is how to not hinder that which knows phenomena and body and all is all one living activity which we're inseparably part of. It's not simply that we're all molecules. It's not at that kind of level abstract level, it's really felt that mind and phenomena and body are a mutual activity.

[32:18]

That's why the I Ching is virtually the most important text in China. Because throwing the coins or the wreaths is considered inseparable from you. There's another example I can use. Which again, Nicole ferreted out. Do you say ferreted? Like spread out or something? No. No? A ferret is like a weasel.

[33:18]

Oh. Well, that's really different. Yeah. So I like using the animal as an image, because ferrets were used, particularly in England, to hunt rabbits and things, because ferrets can go in and get the rabbit out of its rabbit hole. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Die Pferde verfolgt, okay. Also, das ist eine tierische Metapher, wo ferrets, wir sind auf Deutsch nicht Wiesel, sondern sind das Wiesel? Wiesel? Wiesel? Wiesel ist ein Wiesel. Wiesel ist ein Wiesel. Die sich ganz klein machen können und die Beute aus den Löchern rausholen können. Die werden für die Jagd verwendet. So, to ferret out means to... To go in and explore and pull something out. And to ferret out. Rausgebieselt. Rausgebieselt. Wunderbar. Rausgebieselt.

[34:19]

Das bedeutet so viel wie in die Löcher hineinzugehen und etwas rauszuziehen. In English, to weasel out is the opposite meaning. The weasel out is to escape from the situation. The ferret out is to go into the situation. Okay. Okay. It's not important, but it's interesting. These words are interesting. One of the main poems we use in our lineage teaching It's a, where are you going? I'm going on a pilgrimage. And where are you going on this pilgrimage? And he says, I don't know. And then the teacher says, not knowing is nearest. And not knowing is nearest is a comparable statement to do not hinder that which hears.

[35:45]

So there was a seminar going to happen at Johanneshof on this, come on. And she explored what the Chinese word for pilgrimage is. To go on a pilgrimage. Yeah, but it wasn't the same word as pilgrimage. It was different. But the word that came, that they put before pilgrimage, that was a different word that was used. What was the word? I don't know in Chinese, but that was the one with the wind. Okay. Yeah, okay. To go on a pilgrimage in Buddhist Chinese is to follow the wind.

[36:51]

And it doesn't mean to follow the big wind or a breeze or something. It means to follow the microclimate winds. On the bush, the leaves may be blowing one way, on the tree, another way. And the lower branch is moving one way and the upper branch is another. To let those phenomenal dynamics of being in the immediacy, a participatory immediacy, The participatory immediacy of other persons and of the leaves of a tree call forth in you what you should do.

[38:13]

This is not something sketchy. Could you translate it well? No, no, this is just such a wonderful image. All right. So it's not a kind of schitzy sense of seeing meaning in science. Not that at all. And this is not so schitzy. It's from schizophrenia. It's not such a schizophrenic feeling that you, for example, try to read meanings in a possible sign. Nor is it to think that somehow the grass, the bending grass, because another thing, sometimes the bending grass is used as an image. It's not that the bending grass is somehow godlike and knows what you should do. It means that at a particular moment, the how you read the phenomena and the persons around you opens you to what you really feel.

[39:49]

sondern es bedeutet, dass in einem ganz spezifischen Moment, also in einem Moment, die Art und Weise, wie du die Phänomene und die Menschen um dich herum liest, dass dich das für das öffnet, wie du dich tatsächlich fühlst. So then Buddhism developed within this worldview. And not only developed within this worldview, it helped develop this worldview. So what I meant by exponentially cognitive If cognition means engaged meditation, not just acquired meditation, Then what practice is, is how to engage with others and phenomena in a way that there's a thorough embodiment of the whole situation.

[41:03]

So in China, they'd say a harmony to the whole process. I would say so that there's a connectivity to the whole process. It means that in the details of your life are the world's... So it means you have to find a way to bring particularly a new view, a shifted view, into every identifiable detail of your life.

[42:26]

Das bedeutet, dass du eine neue Sichtweise, eine identifizierbare, andere Sichtweise in jedes Detail deines Lebens hineinbringen musst. You can't just think it. Das kannst du nicht einfach denken. You have to bodily... You have to phenomenality a bodily mind that does it. So I tend not to call all of this phenomena, which actually means the mind, as things as perceived by the mind. Although that's the etymological basis for the word phenomena, it's lost that connection long ago in English usage. So I try to express that by saying something like, the phenomenality, there's not really any word of that, the phenomenality of mind and body.

[43:52]

And I shouldn't even say mind and body, that's already a mistake. And I can say the bodily mind phenomenality, but even those as three are a mistake, because it's really one. So much in Zen practice, again. is to develop the attentional skills so that you can feel and notice each appearance and you can bring a wisdom or a view to each appearance. Now, I would think, because from that point of view, Zen practice is part of your... Zazen is part of your Zen practice.

[45:42]

Like sleeping is part of your Zen practice. Or eating is part of your Zen practice. Or whatever. Because if Zen practice is going to be a transformative practice within the potentialities of realization or awakening or enlightenment there has to be a participatory consciousness in which you have the attentional skills to participate in each moment of consciousness. And that engagement with each appearance.

[46:46]

That wisdom engagement with each appearance. which is partly developed through Zazen. But still, it's this, the full realm of your lived life, which is really Zen practice. So if I couldn't sit anymore because my legs don't fold and they don't fold as well as they used to and they've never folded very well, it wouldn't change my practice much. Because my real practice is bringing potential wisdom to each moment.

[47:48]

And that's where the construction and deconstruction of consciousness comes in. Because you're reconstructing consciousness so that it can participate in each sensorial moment. It's that engagement with immediacy which is considered, could be described as, evidential wisdom, prajna.

[49:15]

The word for wisdom literally means evidential wisdom. Because it's a participatory immediacy which unfolds the wisdom of bodily mind phenomenality. Because it's a participatory immediacy It's the participatory immediacy which unfolds bodily mind phenomenality, the wisdom of bodily mind phenomenality. So these two worldviews are different enough that I really have to kind of rearrange language to talk about.

[50:34]

And neither is an accurate description of the world. Or both are partial descriptions of our world. Oder beide sind teilweise Beschreibungen unserer Welt. So the question is not which is the truest, but which is the most fruitful. Dann ist die Frage nicht, welche ist die wahrere, sondern welche ist die fruchtbar. So, for example, is it fruitful to think, as just a simple, a cosmic but simple example. Zum Beispiel ist es fruchtbar zu denken, einfach als ein einfaches, aber ein kosmisches Beispiel. Is it fruitful to think there was a beginning to the universe? Or is it fruitful to think the universe, the uni-multiverse is always going on?

[51:47]

How the heck do I know? I don't know. But I do know to think of it as always going on is more fruitful. So my own experience is, and the Buddhist view is, to come as close to how things actually exist is the wisest course. Und die buddhistische Sichtweise ist, dass so nah wie möglich daran heranzukommen, wie die Dinge tatsächlich existieren, ist die weiseste Richtung. So, to use a simple example I mentioned the other day. I'm going to pull a rabbit out of the white cup. No, I'm not. I'm going to pour this into the... What did I just do?

[53:01]

I gave you an example of how things actually exist. My body knows that it doesn't make much sense to do that, or whatever... My body knows gravity makes more sense that way. And it's possible for my body to know everything is impermanent. Everything is interactionally interdependent. But to get there is called Zen practice. Or maybe it's called psychotherapist Zen practice. All right, let's have lunch.

[54:19]

Thank you very much.

[54:21]

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