Good morning. Guten Morgen. We lost the center here. Wir haben die Mitte verloren. The Darmometer. I told him he was the Barometer or Darmometer. Ich habe ihm gesagt, es sei das Barometer oder das Darmometer. Because I saw his reactions always to what I was saying. So I was just going to say, the rest of you have to hold the center, but now Regula is halfway there. Now, Servo, good morning again. Several people told me yesterday that you had a particularly good discussion in the morning, although you fell silent afterwards.

[01:04]

And that was an innovation that took me many years to come to. So we could even really go out on a limb and have a second morning of small groups. I'm scared of the idea. I'm not ready to innovate that much, maybe. We could even have the same groups and continue the discussion. Or we could stay here and have a discussion on one large group. But In either case, I'd like to start with some discussion of the seminar.

[02:18]

And then after the ritual break, we'll have a ritual ending. Und nach der rituellen Pause werden wir auf eine rituelle Weise aufhören. Also wenn ich etwas finden kann, was ich über das Ritual sagen kann. Okay, what would you like to do? Was würdet ihr denn gerne machen? Stay here. That's your goal. Okay, all right. So start discussing. Yes. Yes. Yesterday two questions crystallized for me in this field of tension or relationship between Zen practice and psychotherapy.

[03:38]

And these are really, I thought about it, I thought those are really fundamental questions. The way I formulated those questions for myself. For psychotherapy, what do I need in order to be able to let go in a good way? And the second question, which concerns Zen. Who is letting go? Yeah, that's a very slippery question to have asked and for me to answer.

[04:59]

But it comes up regularly. And it's slippery because we just don't have the categories to think about it in, other than self or something. Slippery, what should I say? Glitchy. Okay, so glitchy. Glitchy, yeah. That's what I meant to say, actually. Glitchy. So let me find a way to come back to it. I also understand these two questions as a form of incubation. Yeah, good. All right, then I don't have to respond. Or should I add to the incubatory process? Yeah, okay, yeah. Cluck, cluck. Oh, you're better than I am.

[06:20]

Of course, that's your name. Yeah. Yeah. You had to learn in kindergarten to imitate. Yeah. Okay. Someone else. Yes. You talked about these various or different minds or states of mind. Can those exist simultaneously or are they excluding each other? I mean, when you first start noticing different minds, you notice them separately.

[07:33]

But after a while, you... can feel their presence and overlap and so forth. And let me just repeat again. a basic truism of Yogacara Buddhism. All mental phenomena have a physical component. And all sentient physical phenomena have a mental component.

[08:35]

So once you begin to have, feel, know the physical component of a particular state of mind, say the physical component of the mind of appearance, then you can hold that while you think about something. Now, samadhi is supposed to be, you know, in the simplistic idea, samadhi is blank mind or something like that. And the beginning practitioner notices that If they, after sitting for some months or something, they notice they have no thoughts, just a clear physical mind feeling.

[09:50]

And then they notice it and they congratulate themselves and it goes away. But the more experienced practitioner can notice it, not bother to congratulate him or herself and notice it without losing it because he or she can hold the physical component that holds Okay. Yeah. You know, the only trouble with doing it in one big group and my sitting here on this little platform is that then you all talk to me. Yeah.

[10:57]

So maybe, I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but I'm happy if you sometimes talk with each other and you have some discussion, that's okay, and Christian can translate. Das ist kein Problem, aber ihr könnt vielleicht auch zueinander sprechen und ein Gespräch untereinander haben und der Christian kann dann übersetzen. Vielleicht will der Frank ja wissen, was die Gunni sich zu einer bestimmten Sache denkt. And I'd be happy to listen. Okay, next. Yes. In spite of what you said, I want to say something to you. Oh, okay. And also to everyone else. I am looking forward to what you will be saying about ritual.

[12:03]

It's like telling a story. When you tell us about rituals, that's a little bit like telling stories about those rituals. For me, this is always fruitful. And also how you told us how you would, in Zen, would accompany a dying person. That was very important for me. My feeling is this is also related to other areas of being with other people.

[13:06]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Okay, geez, I'm under pressure. Jetzt bin ich aber unter Druck geworden. Yeah, and then I have another question that maybe is only at the edge of this area, but I want to present it anyway. We work with We work with, you know, peers that perform rituals from an African-Brazilian tradition. African-Brazilian, okay. Okay.

[14:13]

And an important part of that are elements of nature in this ritual. But it's also incorporating aspects of the cosmic aspects or aspects of the cosmos. I didn't hear it because I... Say it again. In exchange with these colleagues, we're always asking how the Buddhist way of understanding rituals goes together with how they see and perform rituals.

[15:35]

You mean people who don't come to the seminar, but... Okay. Yeah, and this ritual of joining, actually joining the dying body The feeling that you are joining the dying body, mentally and physically. And that's primarily done by joining, the focus is joining your breath with their breath.

[16:54]

And of course in traditional cultures, And not very long ago, you know, people died at home and everybody had the experience of seeing dead people and to some extent taking care of grandparents while they died and so forth. In the traditional cultures, people were in contact with dying people because they died at home and had the experience So in a funny way, you know, if you do it three or four or five or ten times, you kind of have a feel for the process. And simple things that people seem to usually die at the new moon and not the full moon. And, you know, I have a friend who is an astronaut.

[18:01]

And he was the first person to walk in space. You know, be out on a tube. He told me once, you know, when you have these liftoffs, When they take off. And he says you do it over and over again in training. Simulated liftoffs. And it's kind of scary at first. And every time after a while they make something go wrong. So you have to go through the simulation and what do you do if this is... And he said, and by the time the real liftoff comes, you've done it so many times and nothing happens, it's wrong, it's a piece of cake.

[19:34]

You don't say it's a piece of cake, do you? No. Mm-hmm. It's a schnitzel. It's a schnitzel. Anyway, I don't know if going through it quite a few times with others turns, when you go through it yourself, it turns into a piece of cake or a schnitzel. But... But certainly, you know, if it starts getting toward new moon, you think, oh... I don't understand. I said, people die more often at new moon.

[20:36]

So once you know that, if you think you're going to die soon, There's a tradition, I'm not making any prediction, but the tradition in Zen of the Zen teachers kind of committing suicide. Don't worry, right now anyway. In the sense that when they're very close to dying, they make their death intentional by slowing down their breath. And I know there's a tradition in... In Europe, in the Middle Ages, the intentional death, the conscious intentional death is the best death.

[22:04]

A good phrase to work with in practice is to say, I'm willing to die. And yet, gladly, I remain alive. You worked. You really feel you're willing to die. Yeah. Also, you know, Nicole and Ulrika and Krista were here during the regular practice-oriented seminars. Nicole, Ulrike und Christa, die waren auch bei dem Seminar letztes Wochenende, wo die Orientierung die Praxis selbst war.

[23:24]

And this seminar is different, I think, all of you feel. Und ich glaube, ihr könnt es bemerken, dass dieses Seminar anders ist. At least Ulrike and Christa expressed to me the difference. So, you know, and I'm always wondering in the midst of our seminars how to include practice but not emphasize it too much and so forth. So I'm happy to have any comments you want to make about it. And if you feel the balance is okay so far, and if... And if you have some feeling about where you'd like next year, if we do it next year, go.

[24:25]

Also, ich könnte vielleicht das kommentieren, wie ihr die Balance empfindet, was ihr meint, und was ihr euch vorstellen könnt, wo wir im nächsten Jahr... What's the holiday we schedule around? Von Leichnam. Well, is it correct that as long as there's a phone like, whatever it is, we'll have a seminar? If what? Oh, if we can't live one day? Oh, okay.

[25:31]

Oh, it's okay. I know, I know it is, yeah. That means it exists forever. Yeah. Oh, if Christianity disappears, then we'll have to create another holiday. Yeah. It's not going to disappear. Anyway, did somebody over there want to say something? I saw a hand up, but it went down. Yes, regular. I thought what you said yesterday afternoon was very exciting. What you said yesterday afternoon I found quite exciting. This intention which is free of gold. ... In which a posture is created within which healing can occur.

[26:52]

Yes. And I wonder where this posture needs to be focused. You spoke about how all of your energy needs to go there. I also think about work with clients. Okay. Oh, I thought you were going to say something else.

[27:53]

About clients. Well, I said all your energy is in the intent, not in the posture. Or in the intent is a mental posture. In that sense, your bodily energy is focused on the intent. Like if you're going to jump across a big space, all your energy is in your... And who's doing that?

[28:59]

Oh dear. Talk to him. Sprich mit dem Andi. This balance between speaking, listening and practice is good. But if there's any kind of doubt about that, then I would like more of the practice. Okay. That's two heads igniting the arrogance. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I can nod with those heads and agree with them.

[30:14]

And I would also say, in doubt, more practice. When in doubt, more practice. So for me, the balance occurs by participating in the first seminar. Yeah. That's clever of you. So from that point of view, this should be more emphasis on psychotherapy. But you did say that there was a kind of different kind of challenge you felt in this seminar that resulted in different ways of looking at them. And I would like to see that it remains that way. Okay. but you know I will come to that first weekend anyway and I want to ask you what is it that you get in this first seminar that you don't get here

[31:57]

Specifically in this weekend there were very basic instructions that at the same time went really deep. And I like this kind of connection by listening again to these very basic instructions. And Christian, you were also in both seminars. Okay. It helped me, for instance, when Hiltrud spoke about how she finds this seminar or this way of looking at things helps her work as a therapist.

[33:20]

I mean, I do seminars, you know, fairly often about practice and Buddhist teachings and so on. So this and Kassel will be only at Budapest this year. The only ones I do trying to see if I can say anything useful to therapists. And in the ceremonies I do concentrating, emphasizing teaching and practice. I can see and feel what I'm doing because I see how people are sitting and how people are But I can't see so easily how this is of any use to you.

[34:35]

It sometimes occurs to me that it must be of some use because you keep coming back. But it helps me if I have some kind of feedback and information about it. Otherwise I'm talking into the darkness. What does dunkel mean? Dunkel? The darkness? Oh, darkness. It sounds pretty dark. Yeah, it does. Dunkel. I'm scared of the dunkel. Ich habe Angst vor dem Dunkel.

[35:38]

Yes. The focus for me in the seminar that emerged is how can I transfer the practice into therapy? And this in particular with this example of discursive thinking? How can I avoid as a therapist that the discursive thinking interferes with this process of healing? And every therapist or school has their own method. It's a kind of technical problem. Yeah, so in this seminar, the question occurs, is there a Zen therapy in mind that supports practice as well as the therapy?

[37:00]

Okay, thank you. Hilsu? So particularly significant for me is to perceive these physical components of states of mind both in myself and in the clients. Since I've been coming to these seminars this perception has been gaining more subtlety.

[38:00]

And I am noticing that I am very, I am being nourished, incredibly nourished in this kind of mindfulness. While you're working with a client. Here. And then later also with the clients. And I do experience that as a kind of practice. I would hope that it's possible, at least sometimes, for one of the ways to monitor and stay in touch with any kind of nourishing or healing process in the client one way to stay in touch with, any kind of healing or nourishing process in the would be felt in yourself as a nourishing process too.

[39:28]

That you felt nourished by being with the client. And when you didn't feel nourished, you thought, maybe I'm a little off, if that's the case. Yeah, so I, you know, um... I'm not interested in testimonials of whether this is good or bad. That you're here and that I'm here is testimonial enough from both of us. But still, it would be interesting if you kind of imagined... Before we did these seminars, how did I imagine... How did I act as a therapist? And how do I imagine the work now, etc.?

[40:31]

What's the difference between the two? This is perhaps helpful. Before I came to these seminars, how did I experience the therapeutic work? And how do I experience it now? Which picture do I have of it now that I'm taking part in the seminars? Yes. I want to agree and continue what Viltrup says. Hi, I'm working with bigger social systems. And I'm also working with theories that describe these larger social systems. ...

[41:42]

And I can let these theories in this seminar, I can let these theories rub with the ideas that Buddhism developed about the individual. Yeah. And this is very helpful in my personal development of images and theories. Over these recent days, Suzuki Roshi's phrase stayed with me and I Which is about locating ourselves in the world through the breath and through this upright sitting.

[42:59]

And he says through the speaking and feeling we can reach this kind of truth, something like that. And so what I'm dealing with now is that I'm dealing with human beings who want to locate themselves in the world. and also that they want to locate themselves socially. And I'm noticing that it would be very good to locate oneself first in the world.

[44:15]

Even in themselves. Even in themselves would be a good start. And then the next step would be to locate oneself socially. And I have an increased awareness now in these that perceiving the body can help this. Yes. so that this Being touched emotionally or feeling is a way to locate ourselves socially.

[45:49]

My question is also like Andreas asked you, where is the love? Where is this locating oneself socially located in Buddhism? Well, let me just speak to the love question. The emphasis on Buddhism is to care for... To feel others are also you.

[46:59]

The emphasis isn't so much to love them. I love these three little children who've been around here. But that's an adult loving a child. With other adults, my feeling is something like, this is also me. And And I think if that experience is incubated, people would say about such a person, well, he's very loving or something like that.

[48:05]

How to locate yourself socially? That's a question I'd have to give some thought to. To transfer it into Buddhist terms. Let me give it a little time. This is what is particularly interesting in my work. This is my job as a business consultant to support people in finding a way to locate themselves socially. I understand that. But I don't know if I can contribute anything to that. And I don't know if I can contribute to that, but I think, you know, this, from my point of view, this could also be a topic for a future seminar.

[49:21]

Yeah, I mean, I liked it right now. I'm stimulated by it. And maybe I can... Something will appear when we talk about ritual, about ritual. Okay. You know, Siegfried has said to me a couple of times is that he finds that these seminars have contributed at least to him or maybe others have contributed to the development of consolation thinking or theory or feeling or something. Well, I didn't ask him how.

[50:22]

If he was here, I'd say, what did you mean? So maybe after the break, if you have some idea, you can... But we should have long ago at least, probably long ago, had a break. And I'd like to ask you after the break, Ravi, to say something about your experience in these things.

[51:02]

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