Yes, Harold. I don't know if I said the least, but I did say something. Yes, you did. Today in the morning meditation, I've discovered a basic contradiction I was meditating and very quiet. And then I thought, oh yes, I can practice meditation. And at once it was clear that it was a miracle. Which language did you speak? Then I got instantaneously clear that this was a contradiction.

[01:01]

And the question I posed... Is it true that I am either in one state or in the other? Is it true that I'm either in this state or in that state? Is there some kind of resolution or is this fundamental? Well, I'm glad you've been making some progress. Because it is a kind of progress to be in the midst of meditation and notice that you're in the midst of meditation. And when you're not so experienced, that thought puts you into consciousness and out of meditation.

[02:14]

But as you get more experienced the meditation experience is primarily bodily and the thoughts you have don't affect it so much. Und dann werden die Gedanken, die du hast, es nicht so sehr beeinflussen. And you can also hold the thought sort of in the corner of the mind and examine it without leaving meditation, leaving the somatic field of meditation. Du kannst auch einen Gedanken in dem Feld halten und ihn anschauen, ohne dabei den somatischen Zustand zu verändern. but that's an important point of exploration in practice. Okay. Thank you for bringing it up.

[03:16]

N-E-X-T. Now I heard a number of you speaking volubly during this group but not in the larger group. Is the number of people intimidating or am I intimidating? Maybe I should just leave. But I see you're ready. Yes. So we were a second group and we basically had two topics. And it was very balanced with us. So everyone spoke relatively equally. So we were group number two.

[04:19]

We had two topics and more or less everyone spoke the same amount, so it was pretty balanced. But I will be the one who is going to summarize. So three of us had the same problem that we enjoy being here, we enjoy continue developing this here. but we can't really express it. So, since every person had a different form of it, I can explain mine, and then later the other two can explain their own.

[05:20]

I'm much involved in it. It's not like being in therapy where you at some point learn I am really frustrated with my parents. Developments are happening within me. Maybe changes of views are happening sometimes unnoticed. So I lack words for expression, so I can feel it, but I don't have the words to express or explain it. And we have decided to make it clear why we say so little, because we have also noticed that

[06:37]

that it is frustrating for you? Oh, we talked about why this is so difficult for us to not speak and especially since we know that you're so frustrated if we don't speak. Not so frustrated. But we don't want to make you happy. This I hope. Sometimes I have the impression that because I'm not so much into Zen practice, I express myself in a way that is not inappropriate, but it seems to be wrong. I express myself in a way, not that it's inappropriate, but it's sort of well placed or something like that.

[07:59]

So now Gunni and Walter, I really have a hard time explaining it for you, so who of you two wants to go on next? Okay. I'll stand. That's hypnotherapist that I've come across. Hypnotherapist. You make the setting so precise. You're so carefully centered and you seem to breathe with the group. And I think you feel when the bottom is reached, and then you say the most deepest things that go straight in.

[09:07]

Now I feel hip. Hypnotherapist, yeah. Thank you, Walter. Now, Guni's going to make an attempt to speak more than she usually does? Only an attempt. While I sit here, I get very quickly into a state where I have the impression that I am experiencing it. I can feel what Rosé is talking about. While I'm sitting here, very soon or early on, I get into a state where I know that I really experience what you're feeling or what you're speaking about, where I can physically feel it in my body.

[10:41]

And when I then come into language, So I'm too slow to switch over into speech. If I did go into speech I would just be kind of catapulted out. And this It's really difficult for me, this kind of... Yeah. From catatonic to catapult. And then there's another point I understand more biographically. I was very much a lonely child without knowing that I was a lonely child.

[11:53]

In the family, I never expressed myself or I did not express myself in words. I talked much more with animals and plants outside. And this conversation was without words. And now when I am in a big group of people, I always think, this is not important. It's not necessary to speak. Okay, but neither your mother or father is in this room. They're lurking in between other people.

[13:29]

You know, I appreciate what... Nobody's ever spoken so directly to the problems of speaking as you three have just now. To me. And I am definitely not unaware of the people who don't speak. I'm definitely aware of the people who don't speak. And in fact, if I try to say something about what I do in meeting and speaking, I mean, mostly I don't know what I do, I just do it.

[14:40]

But when I'm called upon to notice it, for instance, I bring something up I can feel. And I have, you know, some resources and maybe I'll speak about it. But the resources are pretty limited. But I can feel there's a kind of foundation for what I'm saying in you. And in Walter there is a very strong foundation always.

[15:42]

In fact, I see you sitting right now in the corner of the room in Rastenberg. Almost the same location. And Guni, I feel this, right? And then I feel almost like it becomes a platform with these three legs. And there's more legs than that. It can be all of you. But I often particularly feel it with the people who are silent because they're very absorbent but not saying anything. And then I find myself on that platform with you guys as the foundation or legs.

[16:47]

And then I find something else to say. So it's like that. But one of the things, you know, in Zen we are not expecting an expository response or an explanatory response. There's a tradition in the practice of meeting and speaking is that you do not speak in an expository or explanatory way, but rather you just exclaim. exclaim?

[17:57]

Yes, something like that. Like, oh! That's an exclamation. So you might say feeling breathing. That kind of response is more typical in a practice situation, not an expository response. So what is your name again? Susan. Susan. Okay. So Susan might say, you know, I'm not into practicing Zen, but I'm certainly in here. I just made that up from what you said. But that would be easy to say. Then your presence is part of the group in a new way. Because I'm here, I mean, I can't fall in love every day, but I'm here because I kind of am in love with the people I practice with.

[19:24]

Because I feel we're in the world together somehow. Because I feel that we are somehow together in the same world. Someone else. Yes. So I can start talking about group number three and the others please chime in. We very quickly entered into how our everyday, or let's say our work, how that relates to what Roshi said. So for instance the presence of breath

[20:34]

and how one can get through the day with more relaxation if one is keeping the breath in mind. Exactly, exactly. And then we ended up with a tricky question, maybe I'll go over it later, which is the question of effectiveness. And then we had a more tricky question, the question of efficacy, effectiveness. So concerning the the therapy you're doing with your client and in respect to your own efficacy or or efficacy of practice maybe in a wider sense okay thank you very much This year I made a very interesting experience.

[22:07]

Can you say the same thing? Efficacy. Efficacy. Or effectiveness. Effectual. Because I feel in a culture of effectiveness. I feel that I'm from a culture where this efficiency is very rooted in and it's very important. Also for me personally. And a year ago I started to learn to play the guitar. And it took a long time for me to let go of, to quickly reach something. practice and the kind of attitude or posture I've brought from meditation

[23:19]

Just do a thing. And not thinking that the next time I play this piece it has to be better. Just play it. And when I achieve that, then I'm content. And you still improve. Yes. By the way. By the way. Okay, thanks. Yes, Andrea? I also want to add a sentence to speaking and not speaking. Often your speaking brings me to a state of some practice. where everything is folded in and out and is present at the same time.

[24:52]

And then speaking could just pull out one thread and it disrupts the whole process. So I do have a few threads that I did pick out so one is that simultaneous time So there is this feeling which I think I know from childhood that the world Somehow the world stops, but it's kind of, yeah. Stays or stops. Stays, yeah. It has, it includes a spaciousness. And then I ask myself if that's it. And then it is therapeutic context and

[26:16]

Bodily time where they are embodying with each other. Contextual time that arises. As Roshi has mentioned, can I speak about what I see from this resonant space and thus bring a time of ripening? But what I find even more exciting is not to speak about it, but only What I find more exciting is not to point it out and just feel it within myself as a potentiality and bring this into the field.

[27:36]

And then this by itself happens. Okay. So when I'm speaking, I'm... Well, first of all, Andrea, you said you're part of a feeling or mind or practice that I'm expressing. And you have a feeling that saying something takes you out of that maybe. Or can. But I'm speaking and I have to stay within that in order to speak. So my speaking doesn't take me out of it.

[28:51]

My speaking folds me into it. I'd like you to have the same skill. So you could just say something like folded in and out. Like you said earlier, you said by itself. I could speak so much better that way. That's the more traditional way to enter a meeting and speaking field. So you enhance the field and don't step out of the field. But it requires a kind of not thinking about, you know, I remember I used to wait until till something just pushed through without my thinking about it.

[30:16]

You know, in the sutras sometimes it says the Buddha spoke, or somebody spoke, and then so-and-so burst into tears. Well, the bursting into tears is an expression of understanding. But no weeping here unless I enter Nirvana during the seminar. Wouldn't it be funny if I died during a seminar? It could happen. Yeah, I'm getting that age, it could happen. And I hope... If it did happen, I hope everybody at the seminar would really have a joyful feeling.

[31:20]

This is really good. This is a good way to die. Put him in the other room and let's go on. Yes. I'm practicing it already. Relaxed, arrived, deeper. Thank you. You're welcome. Yes. Hi. There are two things that join when I explain to other people why I come to you.

[32:23]

You said something that arises in me when you're here. The second part, I don't know what you said it's either. that which leaves when you live, or that which remains when you live. I often ask myself, what did she say? One or two. So I think it's the following way, and now I'll refer to something that I remember. So I think it's the following way, and now I'll refer to something that I remember. So I think it's the following way, and now I'll refer to something that I remember.

[33:34]

So I think it's the following way, and now I'll refer to something that I remember. Okay, so when you're walking in Cresto, there's a rock, it images itself within you, and it's still there even when you've passed the rock. For me it's like this, I believe that what is created in me when I am with you remains a part, So I think for me this is like, together with you, a part of this remains and the other part goes. And the matter of its remaining is sort of like the inner image of the rock.

[34:42]

That all is addictive and that's why I'm always returning. I find it fascinating that you never speak about making up. Reconciliation. Peace. But And what happens within me is exactly that, reconciliation, peace Thank you Anybody else? Yes, Dennis? Earlier this day you talked about will, will to breathe and will to Be happy? Intention, yeah. Sometimes I have a hard time doing both of it.

[35:49]

And I wonder if I can actually generate will Or if it might be a better choice to just let it happen? Is it in the mind or is it in the consciousness or one of this cursive type of thinking? Is it in the mind or is it in the cursive type of thinking? By the way, in general, I'd prefer if you speak in Deutsch first and then let her translate it, or you translate yourself.

[36:49]

Okay. It's just what I'm used to, and I don't understand the German, but I feel something. Okay. I think that at least if we use the word will instead of intention, then I think willingness is better than will. So you have a willingness to do this, but you kind of let it jiggle itself into place, and you don't push it. You have an intention, but you don't... You kind of put the intention there, but you let it swim away if it swims away.

[37:53]

That's one kind of intention. Another kind of intention, like I'm going to not move in sitting. You really hold that as much as you can. But you don't criticize yourself if you can't. But one thing Zen teachers do sometimes, and Sukhavati used to do, It's on the third day of the Sashin, for instance, which is usually considered, in fact, the most difficult day. Or it might be late in the evening. Instead of sitting 40 minutes, you've been sitting 65, 70 minutes.

[39:14]

And everybody is practicing an inner scream. And suddenly Sukerji would say, Don't move! And Wow, a silence would come in the room and everyone's pain would disappear or partially. Okay, so now The three times you mentioned, I feel differently in the body.

[40:17]

Yes. Body time to here. Textural time to here and awakening time. I come here because you also offer me futures, future in feeling going on. And thanks for the coin. Give me five. The coin, what? Give me five. Oh, give me five. What about ten? Eleven?

[41:18]

Okay. Well, we're kind of running out of time, clock time. If somebody else wants to say something, fine, and I will maybe have something to say for a few minutes. Just a remark of what I experienced a few weeks and months ago. I stirred a drink in a cup. And then I experienced that which I cannot describe in words. It might have just been a few seconds.

[42:20]

And then it dissipated. It was over. But still, in some way, it's still present. That's what keeps me nourished. That's actually a Dharma position. So maybe you're into Zen practice more than you really are. Okay. Yes? I'm sorry, I have to go. I have to catch a train. You do have to catch a train? Oh, dear. Do you have time to catch the train? Well, 12 minutes or so, I can say. Okay, well, I don't have much to say, so if you leave any time you want, I won't be offended.

[43:25]

I've been to the Palazzo del Chievo. Some years ago Norbert mentioned that he, in a seminar like this, he asked his clients sometimes, or he did then, to walk three steps with their eyes open and then three steps with their eyes closed. To get into the feeling of not knowing of something. And if I remember correctly, Angela spoke about a seven-day Tibetan practice in the dark. And a few minutes ago, I mean earlier yesterday or sometime, I said, whenever it was, that Fritz is a pattern, and I'm a pattern, and those patterns are different and yet interrelated.

[45:00]

But there's also a mystery, definitely a mystery there. Because I know Fritz isn't only his pattern that I perceive. And Fritz himself isn't only the pattern he perceives of himself. A pattern of self, of desire, of past, present and future, of... anxieties, failures. You're not limited to or even described fully by any of those. Nor am I. So there's a kind of mystery there. which is something like the darkness of the three steps in the dark.

[46:20]

Now that also can be a Dharma position. Now I've never spoken about the Dharma position as fully as I feel. I can say a few things now. So a Dharma position is also to hold in mindfulness, as I said earlier, a phrase. This is rooted in Buddhism, in what is called Dharani practice. Okay, and a dharani, a mantra practice is a dharani practice. But mantra dharani, at least in my experience, in the way I use the word anyway, is much more varied than mantra practice.

[47:26]

So you hold in mind a teaching or a word or a feeling And holding that in mind in the stream of your activity, in the stream of the million-fold details of phenomenal activity, in the midst of the hundred grasses, of the flow of phenomena in the darkness that is more than consciousness can comprehend, comprehend means to take hold of together illuminates and informs the teaching or feeling

[48:47]

So let's just stay with the feeling of the mystery of Fritz and I not knowing each other and knowing each other. And the mystery of... of Norbert's three or many steps in the dark. And maybe we could practice this by practicing a kind of un-naming or namelessness. In other words, there's a tendency in consciousness to name things.

[50:09]

Implicitly or explicitly. Door, table, wall, etc. Koto, perceptions of everything's a word. Now in this way I'm speaking now is you use the tendency to name as a trigger to unname, to take the names away. So you're walking in an illuminated sphere within the darkness of the unnamed. So this Dharani mindfulness practice illuminates a teaching through the flow of phenomena.

[51:15]

beleuchtet eine Leere durch den Fluss der Phänomene, and simultaneously illuminates phenomena, your perception, your knowing of phenomena, through the dharanic mindfulness. And simultaneously also embeds the teaching, the experience in your own circuitry. And fourth, creates a kind of somatic power. But power may be a kind of somatic vitality. And first you have to protect and nourish and in a way protect it from consciousness.

[52:49]

Eventually this somatic vitality can illuminate consciousness. So these are aspects of this bringing of Dharma position or Dharani into the flow of the mind. and once you become skillful at this you can become it's a craft you can take a word like Dharma And you can just have that present in this Dharani stream.

[53:59]

Or you can have the word Buddha. And this turns the Buddha into... If you have to go, it's okay. This turns the Buddha into the... the presence of your life, the phenomenal presence of your life. Martin, thanks for making the effort to come all the way here from Berlin for these several days here in Hanover. A cane says, a leaf said, but enjoy the ups and downs. What do you mean, downs? Yeah, so you can take some basic Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and you can stay with each word in this dharanic stream.

[55:06]

And it will illuminate the teaching and the field of a word like Buddha or Sangha. And that word, Buddha or Dharma or Sangha, will be illuminated through its flow in phenomena. and again in turn that illuminates phenomena and deepens the teaching in yourself and creates a related somatic vitality you can bring into consciousness.

[56:11]

So this is a teaching about dharanic mindfulness. And you can bring body, speech and mind, any teaching into this dharanic flow. This is how the teaching is actually Interstood, if not understood. For us, understand actually means something to put into your grasping. Into your head. standing okay anyway seldom do we are we able to put something in the stream of mind and body like that in the stream of body and mind like that except when we fall in love

[57:28]

then it's almost impossible to get that person out of our body, mind and stream. And Dharma brings much more psychological stability than falling in love. So please fall in love with the Dharma. Thank you very much.

[58:01]

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