The Vinaya precepts, particularly the Vinaya precepts that they have in China, the one that's most important for Japanese Buddhism is called the Four-Part Vinaya and how that relates to the Bodhisattva precepts. So, my understanding is that basically, in China, this Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya, is based on the Four-Part Vinaya.

[01:18]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[02:48]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. [...]

[04:44]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[06:14]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[07:43]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[09:12]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[10:42]

So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya. So, basically, the Four-Part Vinaya is based on the Four-Part Vinaya, the Four-Part Vinaya.

[12:11]

Okay, so Zen monks in China, if you look in the records, it says they took ordination as a novice and then they took forward ordination. So, if you look at the history of Zen ancestors, you'll see in their records that they received these Vinaya precepts and that that was an important aspect of their practice. So, that's part of our tradition in India and China, particularly India and China, that a lot of the ancestors of our tradition in India and China received these Vinaya ordination, received these Vinaya precepts and that was part of their practice. Now, some of these same ancestors also received Bodhisattva precepts and Bodhisattva precepts, generally speaking, although the interpretation of their meaning varies between laypeople and priests or between men and women, how you understand the precept would be different once you look at your situation.

[13:14]

Basically, Bodhisattva precepts in China were the same for males and females, monastics and non-monastics, and ancestors of our tradition in China received Bodhisattva precepts also. And then there's another kind of precept, which in a sense is not really a precept exactly, but monastic regulations, and some of these were created in India, some in Korea, some in Japan, and these were created particularly for the understanding of the teacher or teachers that lived in China at that time. And in particular, I just want to draw your attention to some Zen teachers who worked with their friends and students to create monastic regulations to help the community live communally. So a general difference between these three is the Vinaya precepts were for community life but were emphasizing personal conduct and personal liberation.

[14:23]

This is my view. Of course, once you attain personal liberation and you live in a nice community, of course many of these people would then carry out this personal liberation with the concern for the welfare of all beings. But the orientation is primarily on purifying the practitioner in a monastic situation or purifying the practitioner in a household situation. The Bodhisattva precepts are about how to develop and purify compassion and develop and purify your relationships with other beings. But the key point for us now, I think, in the Zen tradition is that I would say that the monastic precepts or monastic regulations of the Zen school were not so much about just personal liberation or even about purifying compassion,

[15:24]

but actually, in a sense, to realize an actual world, an actual saved world, the communal reality that occurs when people practice these together. That's the point of the monastic precepts. They're not about liberating individuals but healing the whole situation, the whole society. So that's just a kind of introduction. So even though the Vinaya continued to evolve for centuries after the Buddha's death, did it eventually become canonized? Yes, and there were different types of canonized, like I said, there's an Indian form that we call Dasgupta Vinaya, and that was the one which was most popular in China. And that's the one that, for example, Dogen saw when he went to China.

[16:25]

So at a certain point in these different places, it stopped evolving? Well, I think particularly when the Vinaya moved to another country, the evolution would slow down because they were actually importing some regulations which were made in another culture. So, in some sense, they were saying, even though these regulations were made in a different culture, we're going to practice them anyway. And when they did that, you see, to some extent, when you do that, then you don't think of changing them according to your circumstances. So then you say, we'll just keep doing them even whether they make sense or not, because there's some value in that, and there is, I think. So generally speaking, there's a general principle, is when something grows up in a culture, some cultural event grows up in a culture and gets transported to another culture, sometimes when the culture gets transported to, it stays the way it was when it was transmitted longer than it would in its home culture.

[17:38]

Because in the home culture, they know they made it, they know they adapted it, and so when this culture changes, they change that. But in this culture that they transmitted it to, they know we didn't make this, the Chinese made this or the Indians made it, so our culture changing wouldn't necessarily change this because we never really made this in the first place. As a result, you find, even until recently, I mean almost even until now, you find some forms of practice in Japan more like the Tang Dynasty version of it in China than the Chinese have. Because in China, this thing keeps evolving because it's in its home ground. In Japan, it's almost preserved in a kind of museum-like way. However, the Japanese didn't just do that, they also then made their own other new renditions of things which people never saw in China, and those would keep evolving. So that's why some people say that Zen, what we usually think of as Zen, disappeared in China around 1350 on the Common Era, but it was transmitted to China and Korea before that, Japan and Korea before that,

[18:59]

so the appearance and the form of kind of typical Zen practice went on longer in Japan than it did in China. So this kind of unique spiritual manifestation called Zen in China, it's proposed as a form of Mahayana Buddhism. It's different, however, than any other form of Mahayana Buddhism. It appeared in China in what we call the Golden Age of Zen, the Tang Dynasty, and the Zen lineage before that wasn't so different from other forms of Buddhism. But in the Tang Dynasty, it started to be really different, and in the Sung Dynasty, it kind of reached its maximum flowering. After that, it started to reintegrate and become more like the rest of Chinese Buddhism, so that after 1350 and by 1600 or something, you have people who are supposedly in the Zen lineage, but it looks like all the other schools.

[20:06]

But the part that was transmitted to Japan before that looks more like the Tang Dynasty than the Chinese did afterwards. This is a general cultural phenomenon that happens. And then another additional aspect of this is that the founder of Soto Zen in Japan, Dogen, he and or his disciples somehow, we're not sure how it happened, but they made a new version of the Bodhisattva precepts, a simplified version of the Bodhisattva precepts. And then for his monastery, he made a new version of the monastic precepts. However, his new version of the monastic precepts, or the pure rules for the monastery, were modeled on the most popular Chinese version at that time, or the Zen school, so it wasn't so different. In terms of monastic pure rules, he wasn't so different from the Chinese, but his Bodhisattva precepts were different.

[21:15]

They were the same, however, in the sense that these precepts were used the same for people living in monasteries and people not, the same precepts. I'm bringing this all up because, you know, here we are in America, working with these Bodhisattva precepts, which are, as far as I can tell, only practiced in Soto Zen. And then we're at a phase now where we have, to some extent here in the city center in Tassajar, we're evolving our own pure rules, and I think it might be good for us to consider how what we're doing now relates to this big picture I just drew. And also, if any of you have questions or disagreements with the picture, it's just a picture to start with. And so now we have Tassajar, which is, in a sense, during certain parts of the year, it's more uniformly monastic, or I would say, the monastic precepts that are used by the community are more uniformly practiced by the community.

[22:36]

So here we have people in practice period, and there are certain details of the practice period that not everybody at Green Oak is practicing. So here we have like a monastery within a residential community. In Tassajar in the winter, in the spring, you have a monastic community within a mountain range. There's no local Buddhist community who's practicing on a somewhat different basis relative to the monastic precepts. We have no abode, which is, in some sense, has more detailed monastic regulations than Tassajar does. So we have these different situations, and for those of you who are directly involved, and for those of you who are here for a while, it might be good for you to understand how these different things are relating to each other. When you talked about the three kinds of precepts, the Vinaya, the Bodhisattva, and then the monastic regulations, what came into my mind was how do those meet, and what do you do if there's a conflict among them?

[23:43]

So I was mulling that over. And in a way, the situation of Tassajar and Green Oak could be seen as one of those situations, where the Vinaya precepts are slightly more emphasized during the winter, and then the Bodhisattva precept situation in the summer. And what do you do when those sets of precepts don't mesh completely, or aren't identical? One of the things you do is you call a meeting like this, and try to surface and become aware of these different dimensions of our life together, and try to clarify where we stand on it, and is there any problems that we should bring up. And in Tassajar, they somewhat do that. When they go from the winter to the summer, there's a discussion of how to make that transition. There's not so much a discussion the other way around, though, which maybe there should be.

[24:48]

In other words, it's partly because a lot of the new people, a lot of the people who come to Tassajar in the summer, when the emphasis on either pure rule, mostly it's emphasis on pure rules, because most of the people who go to Tassajar in the summer to practice there have almost no initiation into the so-called Vinaya precepts, into the Pratimoksha of Indian Buddhism. They don't, right? Some of them have had some background in Zen centers, pure rules, so I'm a little bit inconsistent the way I'm talking. So pure rules are for monasteries, and the Pratimoksha are for monastics and non-monastics. I believe, unless I'm mistaken, that Pratimoksha is used for monastics and non-monastics in India. And the Pratimoksha in India gives different instructions to lay people and monks.

[25:52]

The Pratimoksha at Tassajar are just for everybody at Tassajar, so in some sense they are purely for that monastic stipulation. So in that sense it might be good to call them pure rules in the sense that we understand that our monastic regulations are just for the monastery, only for monastics. In India they had five precepts for lay people and 250 for a fully ordained male monk. We have monastic precepts for everybody in the monastery, and outside the monastery we don't have precepts except the Bodhisattva precepts, that's the way we are. So I think if everybody knows this it would help. And then when you go from the summer to the practice period, if people have not done a practice period at someplace before, they have to leave Tassajar and go someplace else to get exposed to monastic, to pure rules, and see if they like that before they go to Tassajar.

[26:57]

Are any of you following this? I can see it. So if you go to Tassajar in the summer and the pure rules side of Tassajar is muted, it's not non-existent because there's still a schedule, there's still ways of entering the Zen dome, but a lot of the aspects are downplayed, not downplayed, just not emphasized, so that people naturally downplay monastic regulations, you don't have to work at that. Like children, in a sense they downplay it, but they don't really downplay it, they just don't even notice it. So you go to Tassajar in the summer, so the Bodhisattva precepts in some sense are just as emphasized in the summer as maybe they would be in the winter. The monastic regulations are not so much emphasized. The people who are going to go into practice period, however, in some sense it might be good if they were primed on that a little bit before the practice period starts, because sometimes they come to the practice period and they forget that that's going to be now emphasized.

[28:00]

So it would be good for them to be reminded, or to remind themselves, now we're going to emphasize this side of practice a little bit. That's one of the unique opportunities of what's coming up here in the fall. People who are leaving are going to get that someplace else, in a reduced form. But some people who have already done practice periods, they come through the summer and go into the practice period and they get a little bit surprised when this emphasis happens. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like, somebody goes to Tassajar, they've already done a practice period at City Center or Green Gulch or some other place, so they're allowed to go into the monastic thing at Tassajar. And so when the emphasis comes, some people kind of go, you know, this is weird, all this emphasis on form. They sometimes get surprised. They forget that that's what they signed up for, because they've come through the summer, when they kind of lost track of it. People who have done many practice periods, they're not so surprised, but some people, that might be good. So that's a clash, right? One of the clashes. And the same thing, people come from, they do the summer at Tassajar, they want to do Tassajar practice periods maybe, or Green Gulch practice period, let's say. They come to Green Gulch, and when the practice period starts, some people, they're surprised that this stuff's going to happen.

[29:24]

So that's why I usually ask people, when I'm leading a practice period, do you want to do monastic training? Do you want to work with these regulations? I ask people. Do you know what they are, and do you want to do them? And I do that because I've had the experience, people walk into practice periods, and then they say, it's like they didn't expect it, or they didn't know something, or I don't know what. Or they never really thought about whether they wanted to do it. And some people, when I ask them, do you want to do it, they say, well, I'm willing to, or I will if I have to. And I say, well, you don't have to. This is like an optional thing. If you don't want to do this, you don't have to do it. But if you don't want to do it, I would say, well, come back when you do want to do it. Not join the practice period and not do it. Just come and do it when you want to do it. You're not being forced to do this kind of training. Don't actually ask themselves whether they know what it's going to be and want to do it. It's just the way, I mean, that just happens somehow. And I didn't realize that until I'd done Zen Center a long time.

[30:36]

And I was in a practice period, and I found out that people in the practice period felt like they were being forced to follow the schedule. Not that they wanted to. I didn't know that. So I said, well, you don't have to then. And so they didn't. And then most of them, after spending a couple months of not following the schedule, they wanted to. Only two still didn't want to at the end. Yes, Hector? They wanted to and were willing to, and somehow they have to, in terms of figuring out how I can really want to do something I've never done before, and really want to do that, as opposed to maybe thinking that I want to, but definitely am willing to. Isn't there some combination of that going into Zen Center? Yeah, yes. But still, if I would say to you, do you understand what the schedule's like? And you might say, no. And I say, well, it's this, [...] and this. And you say, hmm. And I say, now do you know what the schedule's sort of? And I say to you, do you want to do that? And you say, definitely. That's a sentence. Definitely.

[31:54]

Of course they don't really know what it's going to be like, but they say definitely. Other people say, hmm, no. And some other people say, a lot of people would say, more people would say, well, I'm willing to. And I would say, well, no is good enough. No is like, yeah, well, you don't have to. But for me, I'm willing to is no. Two weeks later, the person may not know any more about the schedule than they did the last time you talked, but now they say, I thought about it and I do want to do it. I don't know what it's going to be like, but I want to enter into this experience and see what it's like to live with the schedule after saying that I wanted to do it. Then you get in the schedule, right? You said you wanted to do it. And then it's like 4.15 or something in the morning and you hear this noise. And then you say, I don't want to get up, or whatever. I don't want to get up. But at least you know you said you wanted to be in a situation where they're going to make noise early in the morning.

[33:01]

So you don't feel like you were drafted into this situation. And you kind of go, that's interesting. And some people don't go, you know. But then you said you wanted to be in a situation where we come and say, well, hello, Hector. Hector. But you don't know how you're going to want to feel once you get into it. Most people who even have done it before and have had the experience of doing practice periods, when they get in the middle of it, there's a lot of mornings when they say, I don't want to do it. And there's a lot of times during the day when they say, they don't want to go to service. They don't want to go to work. They don't want to go to lecture. They don't want to. And then they watch their mind sort of like, I don't want to. How can I get out of this? They watch their mind trying to work things out for themselves. That's part of being in a monastery, is to watch your mind trying to finagle the world to your satisfaction. And that's very vivid when you sign up for something like this, because most of us, very few of us, will, the structure of the practice period always correspond exactly to our desires.

[34:13]

Sometime, almost all of you will not be at that place. And some people, it's like most of the time they're not. But the thing is that nobody always wants to do the thing right at that time. People want to do it before, after, now I want to do it, now it's not happening. A lot of people want to go to Zen when nobody else is there, or something like that. But just to go when everybody else is there, that's none of our trip. That's the emphasis, go when the other people go, not when you want to. And then you learn more about yourself, that's the point. That's why it's conducive to liberation from this thing of us always trying to do what makes us happy. It's fine to be happy, but to try to always be figuring out what's going to do it is not the happy way. It's that figuring that out, always be concerned with that, that makes us unhappy.

[35:17]

So you can watch, and gradually you learn, most people learn if they do enough practice periods, that when the bell goes, and there's no kind of like, well, is this going to make me happy or not? That thing, happy or not, do I like this or not, that just doesn't come up. The bell goes and you move, you realize, oh yeah, wow, that's like heaven. It's like, nobody's here trying to figure out whether this is a good deal or not. But it takes quite a few times of like, bong, and... Before it's like, it's like, bong, and then up, and you just move. That kind of thing, you're just like a bodhisattva. You just respond according to the situation. There's no like, I should do more of this, less of that. But you see, many, many times of doing that before you can move like that.

[36:19]

And then even if you can move like that, sometimes you slip back in and start to resist again. Resist means you want to go ahead or behind, forward or backwards, right or left. To really be upright takes a lot of training for most people. So the question is, do you want that kind of training? Some people say, yep, at least for six weeks I do, at least for three months I do. And that's what we're talking about. Do you want to try this for three months? Yes. Do you want to try this for one month? Yes. Do you want to try this for the rest of your life? I don't know, it's too much to ask. But we don't do it that way. We do it in sections, you know, in pulses. And if you want to do it, fine. If you don't, there'll be another pulse later. We can do it later. Someday most people probably would like to give it a try. And if you want to give it a try. Then when you get into it, then you have resistance. But you know, you sign up for a situation and you probably would resist at some point.

[37:24]

So when the resistance comes, you say, oh yeah, I heard about this, here it is. And it's a real challenge. But it isn't like somebody herded me into this situation. I signed up for this challenge, and here it is. And then you work with that. You go talk to your teacher or whatever about how to deal with it. You learn. Yeah. So in India and China, the roles of the lay people in the manor house seemed like they were kind of defined by their respective Prasenokyo precepts. And in Japan, where they didn't have that, do you know how they, especially in the beginning, how they started working with that, how they defined the roles of the different groups of people? At the beginning, in Japan, they had the Vinaya precepts. So in the first step of Japanese Buddhism, they had Vinaya precepts. So that's called Nara Buddhism, right?

[38:26]

So the leaders actually, some of the most influential people in the beginning of Japanese Buddhism were the aristocracy. Right? So it was like aristocracy and visiting monks were doing the practice. And the aristocracy were lay people, except for maybe a few that became monks. But when they became monks originally, they were Vinaya, four-part Vinaya, Nara monks. So Nara was the first place that they had an ordination platform in Japan, and they gave the Pratimoksha Vinaya, four-part Vinaya precepts to everybody who became a monk, and lay people received the five, I think, as far as I know. But most of the lay people who were practicing in early Japan were the aristocracy. The masses of lay people were not practicing Buddhism in the early part of Japanese Buddhism. It was the kings, the queens, I mean the emperor and the vice-emperor.

[39:30]

The emperors and the princes and the empress and the princesses and other aristocracy were practicing Buddhism. It was considered to be one of the most refined and aesthetically advanced things that were going on in Japan because that's how the Japanese were thinking of it. They were bringing the best, the most current cream of Chinese culture over to the aristocracy. And it was Buddhism that was one of the main forms of it that they took over. They also took over Chinese clothing, Chinese music, Chinese poetry, Chinese Confucianism. They were bringing all these products, and Buddhism was a key element to be bringing over. Because at that time, China was like Buddha Central. It started to wane in India to some extent.

[40:36]

It was still thriving pretty well, actually. I'll take that back. It was still thriving in India, but China had become almost a Buddhist country around that time. So from China and Korea, the Japanese got this, but it was mostly the aristocracy and upper-class people becoming monks. And it was like a differentiation at the beginning between the precepts they took. And Bodhisattva precepts were not given much in Japan during Nara Buddhism. There was not a Bodhisattva precept initiation platform. In the next phase of Buddhism, when Buddhism moved from Nara to Kyoto in like 9, whatever it was, then around that time, this amazing thing happened of Saicho, the founder of Tendai Buddhism in Japan, or the transmitter of Tendai Buddhism in Japan, somehow got the government to let him set up a Bodhisattva initiation platform in Kyoto, in the capital.

[41:41]

So then there was, they still had the Vinaya ordination platform in Nara, and that was where everybody that wanted to take those precepts got them. And when Saicho was a really important teacher, and he proposed to the government that they set up a Bodhisattva initiation platform on Mount Hiei, the big mountain where there was thousands of monks practicing Tendai Buddhism by the time he died. I should take it back. Not by the time he died. But by the time he died, he had made a big impact on Japanese Buddhism, and he was very popular and very powerful. And he proposed to the government that they set up a Bodhisattva initiation ceremony that would be independent of the Vinaya precept initiation, and basically the establishment of Japanese Buddhism said, no way, that's crazy, that would be like, to really undermine Buddhism, to have this Bodhisattva initiation which would stand by itself. His idea was not just that you would receive the Vinaya precepts and then the Bodhisattva precepts.

[42:46]

So I'll say that again. In China, at that time, people were receiving Vinaya precepts and Bodhisattva precepts and monastic precepts. But in Japan, it was first the Vinaya precepts came over and that was it. And Saicho said, let's have a Bodhisattva initiation and have that person just receive the Bodhisattva precepts and then that would be their initiation into Buddhism by itself. They wouldn't have to receive the Vinaya precepts at all. And the establishment of Buddhism at that time was these people over here, the Vinaya precept people. And they just shot that down, and they had good reasons for it. And so when Saicho died, the government's take on it was, however, here's one story. I don't know if this is true. Mount Hiei is on the east side of Kyoto. And between Mount Hiei and the mountains on the north, there's an opening in the mountain range in the northeast.

[43:51]

And it is according to Chinese geomancy and also Japanese understanding of the powers of nature, the spiritual forces by which energy flows in the planet, evil forces enter through the northwest. And there was a hole right there for that. I shouldn't say evil energy enters through the northwest, but anyway, in Kyoto, the dangerous place for energy to come in is through that hole in the mountains. The southern part of Kyoto, there's a horseshoe of mountains around Kyoto and there's a hole in the horseshoe in the northeast. The southern part's a plain, and energy can come up through the plain, it's not a problem. That's why they put the capital there. It's a very, geomantically speaking, very good place to put a capital. And I think it was. If you look at what happened in Japan, Kyoto became an amazing, just an amazing place. But there's a weak point, and what's spread by the weak point? Saicho's temple. One story is they were afraid, the government was afraid,

[44:55]

that not giving Saicho his dying wish of setting up this ordination platform, some negative forces would come in to the capital. And after he died, not too long, I think just a couple of years after he died, they reversed their decision and set up the ordination platform on Mount Hiei. From that time on, then people usually didn't give both of them. It wasn't in China and Japan, it was in different China. They didn't get the monastic monks and nuns, and lay people did not get the Vinaya precepts in Nara, and then go to get the Bodhisattva precepts at Mount Hiei. In China they probably would have, because they were already doing both. Usually first the Pratyumoksha Vinaya precepts, then the Bodhisattva precepts, and if they're in a Zen monastery, then the monastic pure wills would be what they'd really be working with in detail, because those were specifically designed for the temple you were in. But in Japan, they would either keep doing the Nara Buddhism thing,

[45:58]

or they would go to Mount Hiei and just do the Bodhisattva precepts. And then the poor people, to whatever extent, the farmers, to whatever extent they would, they would also support the monastic institutions. And part of the irony, if I can say this quickly, of the history of Japanese Buddhism is that that mountain complex was set up to train people to get trained in Mahayana Buddhism, and then go all over Japan to help people, and to avoid the heavy monastic institutions that just were for the monks. So they wanted to have a monastery to train Bodhisattvas to go all over the country and just be with the people. Whereas in Nara Buddhism, it was more of a monastic situation, rather than the monks leaving the monastery and going all over the place, because according to the Vinaya precepts, they couldn't do that.

[46:59]

They had to be associated with the monastery. The Bodhisattva precepts would release people after their monastic training to go all over the world. However, what happened was that situation became more of an institution, more of a big thing, than even the Nara thing happens. Huge numbers of monks wound up living there, and not going all over Japan the way they were supposed to. Some did go around Japan, because those precepts would allow them to travel around the country. They could go out among the farmers, and they could stay in a farmer's house, even if women were in the house. They had much more flexibility, because these precepts are the precepts that we call our Ten Great Precepts. Plus 48 minor precepts. Now, they weren't supposed to eat meat, they weren't supposed to sell alcohol, and they weren't supposed to drink alcohol. So they had these precepts. At that time, they got 58 Bodhisattva precepts.

[48:01]

These are the Bodhisattva precepts from the Mahayana text called the Brahmajala Sutra. The Ten Major and 48 Minor. Those are the 58 precepts these people worked with. You've seen them on the board properly. Is it on the board now? Did you get that? Yeah. Did you put them on the board? So there's 58 Bodhisattva precepts that these monks would work with, and those precepts they could use in the monastery and also all over the place. However, they were not as detailed as the Vinaya precepts, which are 250, or the monastic precepts, which are more than 250. They aren't detailed enough. The 58 root precepts do not tell you how to go to the toilet, how to wash your face, who you can be in a room with, how to wear your clothes, in detail. They don't give you that kind of detail. Which, even at Zen Center, we have detail about that. We tell people, don't wear earrings.

[49:01]

Now we even say, don't wear perfume in Zen. Did we say that? This is like a new thing. Fragrances in the Zen, we now say not to do that. Because we never had that before, I guess. That was an issue. So now we give these details, about what clothes to wear, what to do with Zafus, various detailed things, which are not in the 58 Bodhisattva precepts, and are not in the Vinaya precepts, but are in our in-house precepts for how to practice together in the 21st century. Does that make sense? Yes, Max? Did you say you're going to put the 58 precepts again? Yeah. They took them down, I think, partly because I had mentioned things like, for example, it says in these precepts, no onions. I had a problem maybe a year ago, about the onions and the garlic or whatever. And they took it down because you had a problem with onions?

[50:03]

Yeah, exactly. Because I was quoting, oh, you know, Cloud Hall, and they're like, well, these aren't our precepts, this is confusion, so we need to take it down. That's what happened. There's some history between them. Well, maybe you should ask the people who are in charge here, if that's a problem to put it up there. And maybe you could say, these are not our precepts. These are just the Bodhisattva precepts that were practiced, that are practiced in China. So these 48 Bodhisattva precepts are still practiced in China. And they're practiced within the Tendai school in Japan. But just the first ten you'll recognize as being the ten great precepts of our tradition. So Dogen's school just took the first ten for the Bodhisattva initiation in the Soto Zen tradition. And we don't know if really Dogen did that, but it looks like he probably did. And again, I'll just parenthetically mention,

[51:04]

my sociological analysis is, that if he hadn't done that, Soto Zen would probably just be part of Tendai today. But because he made a different set of precepts, Soto Zen has become an independent school, and bigger than Tendai, quite a bit bigger than Tendai. Because he set up another version of the Bodhisattva precepts, which in some sense is more conducive to modern life. It's more appealing to the masses, because it's simpler. Those ten, plus the basic things which all Buddhists take, the refuge precepts and the three pure precepts, all Buddhists take those, basically. So just those ten, you don't have to be really educated to understand how to practice them. I mean, you could be uneducated and you'd understand them as well if you were uneducated. Namely, not much. But the 58 are kind of a little bit more daunting, I think,

[52:12]

to an uneducated farmer. So it's a good move. And so Soto Zen is much more popular, and converted many more people to Buddhism than Tendai did, after a while. And also today, if you look at those, or if they can't be posted, if you go to Max, he'll show you his secret. If you look at the next 48, you'll see. Those are kind of like, well, we've got a problem, you know, because it says no onions or no garlic, and so we do that in our kitchen. And at Rinzho-in, we visited Rinzho-in this year, and there's a rock there on the way up to the temple, it's called the Prohibition Rock, and they have these prohibitions in stone, and they have not taken the stone away. So if Max was at Rinzho-in, he probably would be saying, well, it says on the stone,

[53:12]

we're not supposed to... We're not supposed to... Leave out onions. Yeah. It says no onions. I think it says no garlic, right? It says no alcohol too. You didn't see the alcohol, did you? Yeah. But if you stay there longer, you might have seen some alcohol. Then Max would be saying, you know, well, it says on the stone not to... So would they take the stone away because he said that? If we had put a stone with the 58 things out in front, it would be easier for the practice community to take away the stone. It says it's just on paper. Then when Max brought it up, he said, well, take the paper away, and then he'll shut up because these aren't our precepts, right? So it's true anyway. These 48 are not our precepts, but just for historical purposes, you might want to see what they still take in Tiananmen, what they still take in China, and see that they're a little bit more difficult.

[54:17]

For example, not killing is not so difficult. It's difficult for us, but it's not so difficult to say, well, yeah, that makes sense. But this also says not to eat meat. And not selling alcohol, most people say, well, I don't ever sell alcohol, but it also says in the minor ones, it says don't drink it. So the details are a little bit tougher. But anyway, they're there, you should know about them. They're still being used. Have you checked to see if they're the same as the Brahmajala Sutra? I have. I gave them to someone. Okay. So in Tibet, they have a somewhat different set, but in China, the Brahmajala Sutra is the most popular. There may be some pockets of Mahayana temples where they have different Bodhisattva precepts, but these are the most commonly used. And those are the ones Tendai used in Japan. I think they still do. So anything you've done,

[55:31]

anything you want to bring up? Any people from the Nobo have anything you want to bring up? Yes, what's your name? Justin. Why didn't they like onions and garlic? What's been wrong with onions? I think the basic thing is that it stimulates your reproductive system to make you a little bit more interested in sexual intercourse. So it's like in the old days, that was their Viagra. It's a little bit of slight aphrodisiac. And in the Vinaya tradition, when you're in a monastery, in a monastic situation, or if you're a monk, period, either if you're a monk wherever you are, or if you're in a monastic situation, then

[56:31]

you're not supposed to be like having sexual intercourse in a monastic situation. The Bodhisattva precepts, however, the first ten don't really get that specific. It just says no greedy sex or inappropriate sex. That would be the way to translate it. But when you get into the minor ones, then it says watch out for anything which might stimulate you in such a way that it would be harder for you to determine what's appropriate sex. So if you're in a monastery or if you're in a monastic situation, either you receive the Vinaya precepts which say no sexual intercourse, or if you're in a monastic situation which says no sexual intercourse, according to the monastic regulations of that monastery, either one could have that regulation. If you had to make that commitment, that monastic commitment, then the interpretation of no sexual greed would mean no sexual intercourse. However, if you weren't in a monastery

[57:35]

and you hadn't taken those precepts, then sexual intercourse might be appropriate if it wasn't greedy. So even for lay people, male or female lay people, if they get too stimulated, they might get involved in sexual situations which is not appropriate because they push it too much because they're so, what do you call it, garlic-ified. Garlic's like coursing through you. And you don't even care whether the other person's interested, right? So that's that kind of rapacious sexual behavior where you're like, this is like, that's not appropriate, it's not beneficial because you're being driven by your instincts, you're losing your samadhi, and then you're not relaxed. But it's possible to have a sexual relationship under certain circumstances where you're not being rapacious,

[58:37]

where it's an expression of real compassion, it's possible. But for monastics, when you enter the monastery, you say, well, do you want to be in a monastery for a month and not have any sex, even non-rapacious sex? You say, yeah, I'd like to see what that would be like, I've never gone that long, it'd be interesting. I'd like to see what that's like. And then you say, I'm actually in it, just a few more weeks, it'll be over and then you can... So not all sex is rapacious, but some is, and that's basically what we're kind of cautioning. And so to take in even foodstuffs, not to mention drugs, which make us let these rapacious impulses come out, they're also viewed as probably harmful. Make some sense?

[59:43]

About how complex? Yes. So just to keep it fun, this direction, that's interesting, so in Japan, after Saito, these roles became defined by the people living in the monastery. So that makes sense, sort of like Tatsuhara, when you're there, you're kind of living like a monastic, but then it seems like there's still a difference from China and India about the commitment. Like you're there, for example, Tatsuhara, you have that lifestyle for three months, and then you leave, and there's no, you can come and go like that very easily. So it seems like in present-day Japan, they don't have a real form of commitment, just certain people happen to stay in the monastery for a long time, certain people leave

[60:44]

and have a laid lifestyle, like a back and forth. But it seems like there may be, I wonder, maybe what you think of that, if there's some value in that kind of commitment. Well, let me say a couple things, just interject a couple things. Number one, people now go to Tatsuhara, and while they're in Tatsuhara, they follow the monastic precepts. When the practice period is over, the monastic precepts don't necessarily apply. Their commitment to it maybe ends at that time. If they left Tatsuhara, they might feel, if I had not made a commitment to practice these things outside of Tatsuhara, then they wouldn't. And a lot of people might say, I do not want to commit to these monastic precepts

[61:45]

because I don't think they're appropriate outside Tatsuhara. In Tatsuhara, a lot of these things make sense, but they do not necessarily make sense on the bus going from Tatsuhara to San Francisco. So you might say, I could do it, and sometimes we have actually at Tatsuhara offer people a chance to receive the Bodhisattva precepts just for the practice period because some people are not ready, they feel, for it. But if I receive the Bodhisattva precepts, they have nothing to do with Tatsuhara. So when the practice period is over, I don't stop practicing the Bodhisattva precepts when I leave Tatsuhara. That is a commitment. A lot of people, as you know, will say, fine. But in Buddhism, generally speaking, it is considered, what's the word, more powerful to receive the precepts

[62:49]

of what we call Sambara precepts. In other words, to receive the precepts as a discipline rather than just practice them. So being honest is good, but making a commitment So if you receive the Bodhisattva precepts, even if they are what you are already working on and you make a commitment to them, then that commitment not only makes it more powerful, but there is no end to it. But we don't require that at Tatsuhara yet. That you come to Tatsuhara and you practice. We do require the monastic commitment for the practice period, but we don't require the Bodhisattva initiation and that wouldn't end after the practice period is over. Right? And that's something we, I think, we're not that far from considering that, but we might get to that point and say, I feel fine about people not practicing monastic precepts when the practice period is over

[63:49]

and they go visit their parents in Pennsylvania or something, right? That's fine with me, but I don't feel good about them not practicing the Bodhisattva precepts. That doesn't seem right. I mean, I don't feel... I basically don't feel all right about anybody not practicing the Bodhisattva precepts on this planet. Right? In other words, I don't feel all right about people not being compassionate. But if they're actually entering Tatsuhara and practicing monastically, then it's all the more important that they don't walk out of Tatsuhara and think that they have no responsibility after the practice period is over. That's why, although the monastic precepts actually might not be appropriate in some situations, the Bodhisattva precepts are always appropriate from my point of view. So that would be the commitment, the fundamental commitment in Zen. So that a Zen monk or a layperson who has some monastic training or wants to do more,

[64:50]

that comes and goes. Even for the monk, it changes according to the situation. But the Bodhisattva precepts, I don't see that. But we have not yet required that people make a commitment to the Bodhisattva precepts before they do a Tatsuhara practice period. We just require an interest. We don't even require that people follow the monastic precepts of Tatsuhara. We just require that they make a commitment to follow them. Right? You might not be able to follow them, but you commit to follow them, just like you might not be able to follow the Bodhisattva precepts. But we require commitment to the monastic precepts, but not commitment to the Bodhisattva precepts. We don't require it. And I don't want to force anybody to take the Bodhisattva precepts because it's a heart thing. You shouldn't take them because somebody is forcing you to commit yourself to compassion. But if without forcing somebody to make it just like,

[65:52]

I'm not sure, I don't want to turn anybody away. But in some sense, it's funny for somebody to leave Tatsuhara and then say, well, I'm out of Tatsuhara now, I did Tatsuhara, that was nice, I was a monk for a few months, but now I'm just totally uncommitted and I have no commitment to the Bodhisattva precepts and the monastic precepts. I'm just like a free agent. That's the way it is in a sense. Of course, in some sense, it isn't too. Some people, even if they haven't made the commitment, when they leave Tatsuhara, they still feel like, this isn't appropriate. Just like in Tatsuhara, there's some things that there's no rule about, there's no monastic precept about, and you know it's wrong. Or put it the other way, there's some things that there's no monastic precept about, but you know it's right. And I often use the example of the second work period

[66:59]

of my first practice period, I think the first work period, the first work period was, well, first of all, I just want to say, the first work period was something which all of us people who had just finished Tantra were very happy to partake of. I've got a whole work, well that sounds good. So I had a work meeting and the work leader said, does anybody here know how to drive a truck? And I said, I do. So I got in this big truck, which some of you know where Tatsuhara, Zendo is. It's up on, Zendo wasn't there at that time, but anyway, there's this garden area where the garden, now the Zendo is, it's raised up, and it's up on a hill and there was an incline coming down from Zendo towards the dormitory and there was a truck parked there on this incline pointed towards the men's dormitory. So somebody said, do you know how to drive a truck? I said yes, I got in the truck and I started to drive the truck and it did not hit the dorm.

[68:11]

That was my first work meeting. So then there was no more driving the truck that day. So then we switched the job and we went up the road to fill in a gut, a rut that had formed in the main road because the stream Tatsuhara, the second smallest Tatsuhara stream didn't turn the corner because it overflowed and instead of turning the corner that was my first work period. The second work period was related in the sense that we went up to repair the water line that got washed out in the flood. So this guy and I were repairing the water line. It was broken in several places so we repaired it and we moved to the next place, the next break. As we were walking up to the next break I said to this guy, let's go back and we already repaired it, right? I said, let's go back and repair it.

[69:13]

He said, right. We went back and we actually did it properly. We both knew that we were kind of like we had several breaks to do in this work period so we got to go fast. So we really didn't do it really well and we both knew it wasn't right. It wasn't done properly. And we went back and we both knew how it should be done so you do kind of know there is some kind of like but there's no monastic regulation about how to repair water lines, not yet. Probably never will be but there is in a sense if you work together in a monastery there's a sense that this isn't right. There's no rule. But the rules in the context of the monastery coming out of Tangario you know what's right. In Tangario you are following

[70:14]

the monastic precepts very sincerely and it's very difficult. You just sit there but you actually are doing exactly pretty much exactly what you're supposed to be doing for like five or seven days you're like really doing it and it's really hard. So now you can have a ball and work and play but really the transfer of that understanding comes down to there's really there's not so much play in how you do these things. There is a right way and there is a sloppy way there's an inattentive way there's a lazy way there's a rushed way. So it should eventually fill in all the gaps in your behavior so get things done is karma and doing them right is virtue. And so that's what the switch from karma to virtue and switching from karma to virtue

[71:16]

is conducive to liberation once we're like practicing virtue when our mind starts to clear we can start to see straight and that's what these precepts are for. So I think we we should consider that and Noah Boettcher considered that too so that it isn't like we're being all strict and attentive to the regulations and then we walk out the door and do something really unwholesome, unskillful. That doesn't seem right. It's like in some monasteries in Asia you do these really hard practice things which is fine but then after the day is over then they go and drink in the monastery they go up to some room and smoke and drink and not so much that I'm against smoking and drinking it's just that

[72:17]

somehow the way they're doing the monastic discipline doesn't seem to be working they have to do these adjustments it's not satisfying in this way and then it doesn't really work because we have to do that it may be better to change the way we do it so that we don't have to do this stuff in order to make it work does that make some sense? well to make it so that well maybe both maybe change it so that it's not so stressful if you if you practice too hard then you have to like take sedatives maybe because you're so stressed so you know what's and different people are different so some people might need the medicine and some other people don't need the medicine so that sometimes they sometimes they call in Japan in some monasteries some people call me on intercom at certain monasteries and they say you want some

[73:20]

kusuri which means medicine I say kusuri no I'm fine I'm fine fine you want some kusuri? no no I'm fine you want some sake? oh yeah sure in other words you want me to drink sake huh? okay I'll drink sake it's okay for me to drink sake because I'm just doing it because they're forcing me but I wasn't before they brought it up I didn't need any medicine I was fine the day was long enough for me but they call it they call it medicine it's like I said it helps you sleep also in Japan it's cold at night so you have a little sake it warms your toes up so you can sleep better it could be medicine under some circumstances and maybe that's okay that some people if the monastery is too cold maybe a little sake must be okay we'll have to look at it

[74:21]

and not go back and secretly drink the sake because we're trying to pretend like we're pure but just if it's cold and we and most of the monks don't want to turn the heat up and some monks are getting sick then a little sake may be alright to warm the toes of some of them how do they have that in a pure way? how do they have it? yeah well again part of the way they have that is that the the dinner meal in Zen is called yakuseki which means I think evening stone medicine stone no medicine stone yeah medicine stone is a hot stone that you take with you to bed if you're cold so one form of the hot stone is a little bit of carbohydrate in your tummy so you can actually take actual stone

[75:24]

to bed with you or you can put stone inside you by eating a little bit so that's one of the adjustments is to take a little bit because the if you can sleep without the stone in some ways it's good because then you go to bed hungry you wake up easier to wake up in the morning so it has some not eating in the evening has some advantages for some people but if you're going to get sick we don't want people to get sick so so we give them a little bit of medicine stone in the form of something to warm their tummy so that they can make it through the night or get up really early and have something to eat like really early not ready to do it so in Tibet and China it's much colder than India and Tibetans just get up really early they get up so early it's almost like late at night and then they eat they start eating real early and they keep eating non-stop until lunch so they get a lot of meals like five or seven meals

[76:25]

most days and they really enjoy those meals because Zen monks you know gas, what is it cars cars go on gasoline and Zen monks go on rice we do need to have something there to warm us otherwise we get sick and in Tibet they don't have so much rice they didn't used to have so much rice but they had barley barley, right keeps them warm so it's kind of medicine food is medicine and some people need special medicine so they should get it but it should be medicine right and so you should tell your teacher or your peers that you need some medicine they should find medicine for you so we can practice together and we're pretty good that way I think in Zen center now I think well first I'll say we're pretty bad in Zen center we're pretty bad our practice is not so good but

[77:26]

we have been continuing now for a while a lot of the experiments a lot of the Zen centers have flopped a lot of the communities from the 60s have flopped Zen center is an example actually of one of the communities that started in the 60s before that Zen center was basically a lay event it wasn't a residential community it wasn't a residential community until the 60s in the middle of the 60s Zen center started this thing which happened all over America a communal alternative communities that lived together they were residential and we survived so we're not so good but there's something we do manage to make it such that we can continue people can stay and practice here for quite a long time somehow so that's the strong point is that we have some continuity we've been going on now for 41 years the American

[78:27]

San Francisco Zen Center 41 years it's partly because we're not too tough but tough enough so that something's happening to be challenged by that and I just think that this discussion should I hope this discussion goes on looking at this and considering this and so we have this practice center we have Tatsahara we have Noah Boad and we have the rest of our life and it's good for us to keep in mind how all these different practice styles are supporting each other or not if they're not that's I mean talking about how they're supporting each other is fine but actually that's not really the main if they're supporting each other we just enjoy it but if they're not supporting each other that's really what needs to be brought up and that's not so easy to bring up when there's conflict

[79:29]

or a lack of apparent lack of support then it's not so easy to bring up but that's when when we need to bring it up rather than keeping it a shadow so I'm partly bringing this whole issue up because these are these are ritual and ethical issues which are not so easy to bring up sometimes when there's a problem when there's difference of opinion jealousy judgment comparisons all these things happen in our mind around these things and so I think it's I'm hoping to keep looking at this and discussing this anything else you want to bring up? yes um right at the beginning you spoke about the three the the precepts the precepts and the monastic rule and you said something about the monastic rule that was sort of interesting

[80:31]

and I wasn't quite clear about it I wasn't sure if you said that the monastic rule is to create a community that yeah or if it was somehow its relationship with the larger community so yeah so it's like the early monastic community the focus of it was individual liberation now these liberated beings would be an asset to hold the whole society of course but the focus was on this person understanding and becoming liberated and pure next one is how to develop a Buddha through purifying compassion and developing wisdom okay bodhisattva next one is how to make a community so this is like personal liberation this is

[81:32]

liberating all beings and this is make a communal life so this is communal practice rather than just compassion practice so put the compassion into a communal situation and create a communal practice for the individuals to relate to the communal practice but also to have a communal practice so you have this wonderful thing here so bodhisattvas can be working and being compassionate people but they might not create this land so to speak so how to put it I just did so to realize a safe world yeah but you can work you can work to create compassion and just have good relationships with people and develop your own wisdom and become a Buddha but this next step is you should make the next step is you should make a land make a place in the world contribute to the community and that's

[82:35]

that's another step which might not go with all kinds of other compassionate activities and that's I think that's part of what in the history of Zen and not just Zen but those forms of Buddhism which create monasteries offer this place this land and so part of Soto Zen is to recognize that Buddhas don't just become Buddhas they make Buddha lands so you don't just become a compassionate practitioner that's not all you do you also make a practice place you make a world with people that's a world of healing a healing world so there's some construction work necessary in the whole picture of the Buddha it isn't just it isn't just the Buddha and good relationships it's actually like a physical a physical fruit too and

[83:36]

I think what is it one of the good things about AA is that it doesn't have a place they don't make places do you know what I mean? AA doesn't have any buildings as far as I know is that right? I mean they don't even have a head office or something as far as I know they have offices in there they do but anyway they don't have like property and stuff and as a result they don't have a lot of the problems that organizations that do have property have but anyway it does a lot of good I think AA does and part of the reason is that the members don't have to worry about well who is the president and who is in charge of the money we raised and you know is that person driving that Mercedes using our money? you know they don't have to worry about that the way they do in communities but but so they also don't have a land you know so not everybody can benefit from them

[84:36]

because they don't have a land whereas Zen centers have land people can come here see the garden and see the Zen Do and eat the bread and that can be accessed for them because we have this land so that's part of it and that's part of the that's the virtues of Zen practice is to have these forms but it makes Zen practice more difficult too because we have to deal with with all this stuff which you know there can be it's complicated because then you have to say to people well we can't have meditation now because we have to fix the plumbing whereas AA they just have the meetings and when the meetings are over that's it they have no problem yes at the beginning you said something about the precepts made a big community more stable

[85:36]

and that's why they had them so like and long lasting that was that was when the story was told but what about the small community very small community do you think that can could add to instability by having all these precepts or all these pure rules or well if if we have a very small community you do not need the precepts if you have a teacher however if you don't have a teacher then the small community maybe needs the precepts that was part of the deal because when Buddha died it wasn't that they were all living together in one huge monastery they just got together all over the place in small more or less small or large groups and some of the groups might have been quite small so some of the monasteries might have been really small

[86:36]

they have all but they still have the same as all the whole big community so having a small place that has something different than a whole big community you mean you have different precepts because you're small? yeah well in fact that's what happened they have different precepts because they have different first when Buddha died I think as far as I know and this would be very hard to ascertain because it wasn't written down probably the general sense was whether it was true or not it might not have been true because even during his lifetime things spread quite a bit but I think the general sense was you know if you talk to monks in this part of India and monks in that part of India you say who's your teacher and they say Gautama Shakyamuni Buddha they both say the same teacher and say what's your practice what's your vinaya precepts blah blah are those the

[87:37]

same as the ones of other disciples of Shakyamuni they would say yes they are right they probably would think that now if you actually interviewed them in detail you might find this little difference already at the time that he died there might have been some difference but we didn't have a sociologist interviewing the different enclaves of Buddhist disciples to find out if they had different understanding but I think they probably did doesn't that make sense that his disciples were spread at some distance and people heard different things and even the people who heard different things might have got together with maybe these people thought Buddha said this and then they felt so they got together and this person disagrees and they say why don't you go practice someplace else because we don't think Buddha said that and they think oh yes he did so then she finds a bunch of people that agree with her that could happen but just if you listen to

[88:37]

if you give a talk and then you find out what people thought you said afterwards you find out they heard different things and they didn't write the stuff down and in fact they were reciting various teachings because they knew that they would forget or that the words would change if they didn't recite them so they did that so I think even when Buddha died there were probably somewhat different versions of the precepts that he recommended for people face to face then in addition to that if this group got bigger partly because maybe somebody was giving them a lot of support you know food or something so this group got bigger and this group stayed small this group might change their vinya because their group got bigger so they had to figure out what to do with all this rice and this group here there was no problem with the rice they just eat it but this group they couldn't eat it all so they had to make a storage house and they described should we have a person in charge of that thing so then they

[89:37]

have a physician the rice care rice taker here and they describe the job description of that so that becomes part of their vinya right and this small group over here doesn't need any role for that so these two vinyas start to change partly because this one is more like a vinya using it as broad sense as just the word discipline but as the 250 rules or whatever yeah that would change somewhat too depending on how important they thought some of these things regarding you know like clothing and begging these kind of material things are monks would have trouble with that stuff you know some monks would some monks in some places would try some fancy stuff to get donations you know about that right so there's regulations in various

[90:38]

seminars in some precept manuals talking about various ways that monks should not beg and I think the reason they have those examples is somebody tried those methods some of the monks were apparently extorting people you know and but so in some situation where they got a lot of support these people would need those rules does that make sense because it's a good big community they just happen to have imperial or monarchical support so in this situation it doesn't come up that the monks were going and begging and trying various tricks to get people to give them donations here's an example of a trick that you're not supposed to do you're not supposed to like when you go to a place and beg you're not supposed to tell the person

[91:38]

you know make some comment on the donation like oh that was really a nice donation you made there I think the people down the street would like to hear how much you gave in other words I'm going to go tell your neighbors how stingy you are by showing you showing how much you gave me monks would apparently try that because they had rules saying you're not supposed to do that so you know if people were doing that someplace they probably would add that to the list but originally there probably wasn't that transgression so some of the rules for the monks if you look at them you think they probably wouldn't have had that rule unless you were doing

[92:24]

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