You know, Otmar, when you and I talked about this room over the phone, you know, the door and everything, I thought, well, with a new room, I'll probably sit over there instead of here. But here I am here. Are you going to translate? Dr. Alec almost spoke this morning about what happens when you visualize a space like a restaurant you've eaten in or something like that. You call back the space. Where does that happen? And asking oneself questions like that is the practice of using the question to point to the mind. Using questions like that is a way to point to the mind.

[01:25]

Zen is the practice of pointing to the mind. There was a wonderful man named Mickey Stunkard who was one of the pioneer medical professionals, doctors. He was head of the University of Pennsylvania Psychiatry Department. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? No. No? I'm not here today. There's a pawn shop on a corner. Now... Psychology... Pennsylvania State.

[02:27]

Pennsylvania State. You've never been to Pennsylvania, have you? No, it's just a P state. Anyway, he was one of the pioneers in working with bulimia and... Yeah. Anorexia. Anorexia, yeah. He was part of the group in Japan, which included the generation of Graf von Durkheim. And he was founded the Philadelphia Zen Center. And he and Sukershi, right near the end, well, no, a year or two before Sukershi died. Do you remember Mickey Stocker? Because he was the person I started to sit with because I would depend.

[03:31]

Oh, see, there we are. Two and a half degrees of separation. What is Penn? University of Pennsylvania. These anecdotes can get to be rather long. But after a lecture, this is what Mickey told me once. He was head of Stanford psychiatry department for a while, too, yeah. I mean, we have this expression pointing to the mind. We have this expression in Zen pointing to the mind. And after a lecture of super issues, which Mickey, Dr. Stunkard, attended, Do you know the story?

[04:52]

Suzuki Roshi, you come out of the coffin, there's a hallway down to some toilets and a room past the offices. As they were coming out, he called them to the side down that hall. And then pointed to Mickey's head like this three times and then left. Mickey told me he didn't understand. I also know an additional piece to this story. Oh, go ahead. Are you going to continue the story? No, no, please, come on. That's why he's here, my teammate. So shortly before Suzuki Roshi died, Mickey went to see Suzuki Roshi.

[05:55]

Oh, yeah, I know this story. Go ahead. Can I hear you tell it? And he asked Suzuki Roshi what he meant when he touched him three times. And Suzuki Roshi said, I don't remember. You see these Zen stories aren't limited to the Song and Tang dynasties. And that was an awfully good pastry you just had. And I first heard about it before I saw it.

[06:56]

Because Sophia, as much as she loves practicing and learning the cello from Gieselach, was bemoaning the fact that she also couldn't work with Christian to learn how to make pastries like that. This morning at the same time. I didn't know what she meant so I ate the pastry. Thank you very much. Okay, so what would you like to say? Oh, good, thank you. I'd like some closing words to the beginning of this event here, because who knows if I still live to be on the jet.

[08:11]

But I'm a good hope. It's the first time for me that I did the weekend without you in Winterzweigen. And now with you again. And I thought it was good that it was so beautiful and so successful without you. But I'm also very happy that you're back. So this is the first time for me in Winterbranche that I've been to the weekend without you first and it was really also very nice but I am quite pleased that you're back there. And there is a reason to this, because I'd like to mention that since you are here, I'm reading the koan in a different manner. It's the conversation between Daowu and Yunyan.

[09:26]

And when I read that before, I thought that Yun Yan is the kind of the hero. And he has a last word, and that's very sympathetic to a judge. But at the bottom it says who exposes whom. I read it again. Now since you are here. I'm reading it with the experience of sutra school and body school.

[10:35]

And I imagined that Yun Yan is doing something. He is sweeping. And Da Wu says, too busy. But he doesn't say it to explain himself, but he sees his body. And he doesn't respond to an explanation of him, but by seeing his body. And Jungian, I'd like to say, maybe tries to respond with a wisdom explanation. And in the end, he's standing there with the broom in his hand. But Daowu just leaves. And now he can return to practice. And he can only return back to practice. And so now I see Daowu much stronger. I have a question to the work group we had.

[11:49]

If body and mind are one, How is it then possible that with the mind we can influence the body and with the body the mind? Okay. When Colin says, and I spoke this morning, the body and mind are one suchness, not one. There's no oneness in Buddhism. Oneness I translate with the number one, not with... What else would you translate it with?

[12:54]

Number two? Unity. Unity. Unity. We can only say that it would sound like unity, so I'm making the word that it sounds like oneness, like the number one. Okay. Because if everything's changing, and emerging, right? And when you cook, there's always a third. Then there's always all plus one or plus many. You can't contain it. It's always... You can have an experience of oneness Or an experience of allness or totalness or something like that.

[14:03]

But only in implicitly theological cultures would you project that experience of oneness onto the world. you would project it on what? On to the world. It's like people who are interested in yin and yang. Yin and yang is kind of interesting, male, female, dark, white, this food, that food, right? But when you project it onto everything, everything falls into the category of yin and yang, it becomes ridiculous. Okay. So, in such manners we project we project views onto the world and then we give those views a figure so we can experience it as a figure and we end up with deities.

[15:19]

And then millions of people believe it and it's very difficult not to. Millions of people believe in Buddha nature in China, and it was very difficult for Buddhism to fight the belief. Okay, now Daowu, as Daowu and Yunyan, of course these stories, you know, are constructed. They're put together. They were real people. But it's like if Paul and I sat down and constructed a story about Sukhiroshi and Dr. Stunkard and so forth, then we used that story to illustrate a point.

[16:23]

At some point, Dr. Stunkard and Sukhiroshi aren't quite... It's a story. It's an allegory. Now, in the stories, Dawu is usually presented as sort of partly the teacher of Yunyang. So Daowu and Yunyang and Yaoshan and Baizhang and so forth, they're presented as having different experiences in maturity. As it says right in the introduction, it's not that there aren't jobs given according to talent or something like that.

[17:28]

Okay. So that's presenting the lineage horizontally. But vertically, they're all presented as equal. So the koan makes an effort to treat Daowu and yin yang as participants in a mutual understanding. I spent some time, some days with, I can't think of his name right now, who is the main translator and probably writer too, background of the Dalai Lama's books. And he spent, I think, if I remember correctly, we said 12 years in this school of Tibetan Buddhism where they debate all day long.

[18:45]

From morning to night they stand out in the courtyard debating. And this is meant to sharpen your intellect, of course. And these stories are part of that tradition. And these stories are also part of this tradition. So the practice is to just keep throwing yourself into the engagement without hesitation. When you hesitate, Ego comes up, and that's when you get 30 blows.

[20:18]

Okay. Something else. Yes. 30 blows. No, it's all right. It's all right. We have discussed many different things and one detail of it was that it also hinders what kind of attention there is. We've discussed many things, but a part was what type of different or how many different types of attention there are. Focused attention based on an object. And the other thing is noticing. Because noticing is also a sort of attention.

[21:24]

Noticing is some peripheral thing. If the central attention notices that something's been noticed it latches itself onto it and it's very difficult to just let the noticing happen without latching on it the subtle processes One notices them, but one can't grasp them, those subtle processes. Okay. The two basic forms of awareness.

[22:28]

Die zwei so grundlegenden Formen des... are noticing the particular and noticing the field. And it's a yogic practice to develop the skill at shifting from the particular to the field, the field to the particular, and then joining both. And part of this skill ...is not to objectify the particular... ...and also not to identify with the particular in an appropriational way. appropriate to own it.

[23:34]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Question. Maybe I'm getting confused. There is no connectedness, is that right? So everything is not connected? Is that right? Everything is connected. Everything is connected. Good. You're off to a good start. But there is no basis for connection. There's no ground of... of being or ground of connectedness, yes. There's only connectedness. So kind of coincidental through quarks and just coincidental connectedness, it's there because we're made of this stuff, right?

[24:40]

Okay. I find it so amazing how clear this is to me one moment and then the world view within which I was brought up And you know what I think about that? I said that, I don't know if you remember. I'll try to forget. But it tries to sneak its way in. Of course. Because I love the happy end thing, right? And it just sneaks its way in through the most, it drives me mad. Yeah, but the trouble with the happy end is you have to wait a long time for the end.

[25:48]

Wasting my life on the way. It's not really my happy end. It's just, you know, the world, everything, you know, the big, yeah. By the way, you're the person you talked about who inter-names the reality of names. Rather famous Buddhist story. Some king, I don't know why, asked a monk what his name was. And he said, I'm known as Nagasena. And my parents also named me Nagasena. And the other monks called me Nagasena. But he said this just to appellation. a description, a convention, a form of speech.

[27:01]

It's just a name. There's no person here. You should send this little story to you. Okay, well. I have that feeling at the beginning of every lecture. So two things to the ways of seeing things, views, or maybe to taste of those views, have really

[28:12]

They engaged me this year. Once you said there's no inherent being. I found that very interesting, liberating to perceive myself as a being with no inherent nature. I could be very good with it, so that there no longer has to be a person who I am and who I have to hold on to, but rather as a construction or a connection. So I felt good for me to not think that I am a person which I have to hang on to, but to feel myself as a construct. So now I do have the problem that there is no real eye which can actually do things.

[29:57]

Oh, but the other one was the concept of don't move, and to put the attention not onto the body, but onto the concept not to move. As I already told you, in Aspenberg, for me it was really to direct the attention from the body, but only to this concept. And the experience that was really there, And then, I did describe that in Ostenberg already, but not having the attention on the body but on the concept not to move, that this concept then created the non-moving. That really surprised me. That this really works. Yes, but what is informed by the concept?

[31:23]

What informs the concept? The concept is not a thing, the concept is not a thing, the attention is also not a thing, it is for me something without substance, my ego is also something without substance, and all this is moved together, So I am in chaos right now because the concept is not a thing. I am not a thing. So this all is moving with each other. Then you said the mind is not moving and I don't really find that either. It's not that I want to fix a thing So it's not really that I want to nail down a thing, but it is somehow, and I don't know what to say about it.

[32:31]

Thank you. If I've been able to, over these years, to give some of you the feeling, the recognition that you're a construct, and you can handle that and work with it, I feel I've accomplished a lot. And that being a construct without a sense of I who does something, you still found your way here, I think that's quite good. Anyway, somehow you got here and you got to Rastenberg. It is a period of... It depends on how rapidly these things, you recognize these shifts in worldviews. It helps the more that we have our sense of location established in the body.

[33:48]

Established in the breath and sense of continuity established in the body. Rather than our sense of continuity established in our thinking. It also may help if you think that everything is diverging, if you recognize that everything is diverging, falling apart, chaos.

[34:51]

As I've said a number of times recently, if we could live long enough of a few million years, we'd look up many in the sky and the stars wouldn't be there. They're all going to be dispersed as the universe expands. The little dipper will be gone. Okay. But At each moment we make things converge. Yeah. I don't think there's any continuity here. By necessity. Except we're all sitting on the same floor. And we're all falling at the same speed.

[36:03]

So I can reach out like a parachuter hold you before we land together in our parachute filter. But I'm trying to make things converge. I'm helped by the floor and so forth. But my effort is to establish convergence. So you can think of all human culture and all of your acts as efforts to establish convergence in the midst of divergence. And in that establishing of convergence, a sense of self as a function appears and so forth.

[37:27]

And in that In establishing convergence you establish convergence which you experience as self. Okay, now let me generalize the topic here. Okay. There's in a In a fundamental sense, there's no inherent self. Yeah.

[38:33]

And, you know, this is so ingrained in my experience, moment-by-moment experience. You know, when somebody asks me, are you Ick Baker, are you Baker Roshi, or whatever people have. I'm virtually incapable of saying that. Yes. I always say my people think I'm being clever or something but trying to be clever but I always have to say something like well sometimes or just now perhaps. But that's my embodied experience. Is that funny? Disembodied experience? Embodied experience? My experience of discontinuity.

[39:37]

But that I say it is like the essence of the rituals in Zen practice. to enact your worldview so it becomes... it's performed in the details of your life. To enact your worldview... So it performs your life. Informs and performs your life. Okay. Now, what I meant by what I said, I want to generalize the situation a bit. Okay.

[40:43]

We may know everything's changing. We do know that. You can't avoid it. You're getting older. People die and so on. The garden is changing every day. But If you have a tendency to notice permanence more than impermanence, if you have a tendency to notice permanence more than impermanence, If you have a tendency to want to notice permanence more than impermanence, or need to know,

[41:46]

It's virtually the same as having a view of permanence. So your tendency functions repeated, repeated, repeated like a view. The repetition of a tendency functions as a view, a concretized view of your tendency. Okay. So, in fact, even though there's no inherent self, for example, if we function as if there's an inherent self, We create an inherent self.

[43:17]

And we have to treat it. If you're a psychotherapist, you probably have to treat it as if it were an inherent self. It accumulates experience as something that really belongs to you and has belonged to you and so forth. Then you create a ghost. Create a ghost? Yeah. Catholic ghost? Any type of ghost. Okay. Yeah, that's sort of true. Which is the ghost? Which is the double moon? The inherent self or the non-inherent self? So you can have an enlightenment experience which shifts your view. And you can feel good all the time and nothing bugs you and blah, blah, blah.

[44:35]

But to actually undo, to dissolve and shift and transform your habits of 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years, it's called practice after enlightenment. Oh, I'm sorry, I failed. Yes. Taking this step backward and putting yourself in a position to observe, that works pretty well, I do that pretty well, but I find that I carry with me a very critical attitude.

[45:43]

So it's not just observing and saying, oh yes, this is the way things are. Mostly it's, that's not good. And that's not good. And it's very hard for me to separate that from a pretty critical attitude about myself and all you people too. You know, it's hard for me to… Yeah, we feel it. Yeah. Sorry. So there is…it's…yeah, I've taken a step. I guess this is practice after enlightenment. I'm not saying that I'm enlightened, but there's something that's shifted. That's true. But it's still not working the way I was expecting. Could you please translate this out? but the problem is that I am still in a critical way divided into what I do and what I see others doing, so it is not as if you stand there completely worthless and look at each other and say, well, I am the one who is always dissatisfied, not the one who does nothing,

[47:09]

I feel sometimes I'm the one who is dissatisfied, not the one who's not busy, but the one who is dissatisfied. Yeah, I understand. That's good. That gives you an opening for an antidote. I'm very happy to have one. Um, Yes, I would say that in general teachings before enlightenment are mental postures meant to shift your worldview. And practice after enlightenment their mental postures to counteract your habits.

[48:20]

But of course all of this flows together. And Dogen says the first enlightenment is the decision to practice. And when your decision is as firm as I said this morning, you just feel. The full realization, the realization of the one who's not busy, is the totality of my intention. the decision to realize the one who is not busy is my full intention. The ability to have that fullness of intention is a form of enlightenment. So, but we all have a little enlightenment experiences that we don't even notice as enlightenment experiences, but actually are shifts in view or you wouldn't be here.

[49:47]

So we can't make simple practice before and after and things like that. But we can certainly say that the emphasis in the beginning is primarily on shifting your worldview and and you develop more and more as part of that an effort to shift your habits, the habits you inhabit. Okay, so, you yourself came up with the word satisfaction.

[50:52]

So you might, for you, you might work with the one who is satisfied. And notice when you feel satisfied and when you don't. And begin to develop a a real sense of physical knowing of satisfaction. Which can be, you can call forth, physically call forth, even when you're feeling dissatisfied. Okay. Yes. Do we fuss all about the self now because everything's converging on it?

[52:18]

Doesn't this also apply to heart or navel? We're talking about the self as something important. And something that's easily led astray. But doesn't all what you're just talking equally applies to Naples? Yeah. Monsanto was trying to lead it astray. You agree? Yes. You work for them or not? You work for the company. Yes, an apple is a convergence. It arises through interdependence.

[53:19]

And we can call that a convergence. And some convergences stay together and keep repeating themselves in new ways but repeating themselves. It has a different emotional... meaning, I mean, self or apple. Yes, it's true. Because there's quite a difference. If you can think of yourself as an apple and see it went from Adam... It might be good. I'm nothing but an apple. You can try it on.

[54:25]

I mean, you can take it as a mental posture. Every time you see it, you have nothing but an act. It might have an interesting effect. Okay. Thanks for that, Lona. I can always depend on you. Do you want to say something, Paul? I saw your hand. So let me say something about monastic practice and lay practice. Now, when I talk about monastic practice, Which I do quite a bit recently. And a week or so ago at Rostenberg, I was accused of advertising Creston Mountains, etc.

[55:39]

Yeah, it would be nice if some of you did come. Okay, but that wasn't my point. If we're going to establish an adept lay practice, which, in my opinion, we are doing and have done, The next step is, can we develop an adept lay practice which can be transmitted generationally? So far in history, that's never been done. And that's one reason I decided to be ordained. Because I couldn't find any instances of lay lineages that lasted more than two or three generations.

[56:42]

So the question is not can there be an adept lay practice, but can an adept lay practice transmit itself? No, Suzuki Roshi was committed to lay practice, though he was clearly a monk. I mean, ordained, etc. Suzuki Roshi was committed to lay practice, praxis verpflichtet gefühlt, obwohl er eindeutig ein Mönch war, weil er ordiniert und so weiter. But if you read Dogen, in the earlier fascicles of Dogen there's a sense of everyone can practice. Wenn man Dogen liest in den ersten Schriften, ist es ganz klar ein Gefühl, jeder kann praktizieren.

[58:03]

Later in life he pretty much said only monks can do it. Aber später in seinem Leben hat er gesagt, das können eigentlich nur Mönche. Okay. I have not reached that conclusion, and I'm older than Dogen was when he died. I've accomplished as much as Dogen, but I'm older anyway. Now, Suzuki Roshi also recognized that although he was a monk and a priest, it's the same thing formally anyway in Zen. He also recognized that his life was basically also like a layperson. He was responsible for a large temple and things, but it was like living in a house.

[59:16]

And he had a wife and children and so forth. His father, obviously, who was also a monk, priest, also obviously had children, you know, etc. So he came to America partly to see if Buddhism could be transformed in America, in the West, across the Pacific Rim. Is this our evening meal leaving? Oh, we miss you already. are eating me alive.

[60:28]

So Tsukuyoshi started out begging in the streets in San Francisco and discovered that didn't work. At some point he said to me after a few years, it's not working, we need a monastic place. It's not working. And you've heard me riff through this before. So when he said that, I went and started looking for a place. I found Tassajara, and we got it, and blah, blah, blah. And it really instantly, overnight or over months, transformed the practice. In a way Sashims haven't done. And I would say that practicing in Europe when I finally started doing Sashins.

[62:01]

And your father came to the first Sashin. And he was rather, he was quite critical at that time. He was rather, what is going on here? But he came back next year. And if we had not had sashims, you might not be sitting there. Okay, so the starting of Sashins in Europe really created the Sangha. But I think the sense, my experience of an adept lay Sangha started with Yahagas. Even though most of you don't live here or only visit occasionally, it started when this became a component of our lay practice.

[63:10]

Now, let me give you an example. an example of the kind of differences that I keep trying to study. And Buddhism has never been a purely monastic practice. Even people who are mostly monks would go three months in this place and then they'd be out in the world and then they'd be three months in practice in a monastery, etc. And in one of the stories about, related to this koan, The teacher says, well, you've understood, but you won't really understand until you pilgrimage, wander around the countryside for some years.

[64:27]

Yeah, one river. If you know the lyrics to that song, it's... Okay, so just being in the world, wandering around, having odd jobs, you know, having a profession, whatever, is considered part of monastic practice and part of adept practice in Zen? Okay. So I'm trying to understand the difference between monastic practice and the similarities and lay practice. Because only if I can understand both well can I imagine how we can be a sangha which also transmits.

[65:33]

In other words, is Buddhism so complex that it needs institutional transmission? It can't just be individual transmission. In other words, in Europe, in America, the concept of a real education requires the institution of universities. In Europe and America, the concept of a real education requires an institution. There's a history of institutions, colleges, British ones, American ones, European ones. And then there's the history of institutions, American, European, English, and so on.

[66:57]

So to speak about monk practice is also to speak about institutional practice. practice and institutional transmission. Now I used the image of this morning and yesterday of pouring attention into yourself. So let's use that image again. Let's think of a lay person. As a bottle, we can pour something in. By the way, Inosama, where's my bell? Oh, thanks. I need it for... But it's a bottle that leaks.

[68:08]

Okay, so if a monk is a bottle that doesn't leak, as much. Okay, so what happens if I'm pouring the teachings, as much as I can, into a bottle that leaks? Because you go out into your daily life, as Alan pointed out, and Tara and others, and these other worldviews you're participating in, they're very influential. Effective. Influenced. But it waters the world. If we could carry the metaphor that far, I would like it. And hopefully that's ideal. That's the concept of Sangha transmission. So that will be tomorrow's day show.

[69:26]

Thank you very much. Okay. Now, what happens if the bottle leaks? Then I have to pour more teachings in it. I have to keep pouring teachings in it. So somebody who's been to practice period might notice that two seminars, one after another, in Rastenberg is equivalent to about one or two practice periods at Christo. Three or four months of teachings. So in a weekend, I might really cover as much ground, because for me, if I do a weekend seminar, for me, I have the feeling that I'm giving at least four or five teishos a day. And four or five Taishos in Crestone in a practice period would be about three weeks.

[70:41]

So you pour in more teachings when the bottle leaks. Okay, what do you do when the bottle doesn't leak? You pour in teachings that don't overflow. Like beer foaming or something like that. Non-foaming teaching. Okay. Okay. Now, even though I can't pour as many teachings in the bottle, I have to pour very carefully so it doesn't overflow. And I have to tip the bottle a bit when I pour it in so it doesn't foam.

[71:46]

Okay. Okay, but we've got 10 or 20 bottles and they're all near each other. A case. Yeah, so the bottles influence each other. One is called Da Wu, one is called Lin Yan, one is called Yao Shan and so forth. And also in the practice period I have a captive audience. Okay.

[72:55]

So I can take some teachings and disguise them as cheesecake and put them out on the table. And people walk by and the kids are, you know, oh, maybe I'll try that. So in a monastic situation you can present teachings in a larger variety of ways because It's not just in the bottle, but in a larger variety of ways, because you're there and you come across them when you don't expect them. Yeah, now the lei... the lay practitioner, they're not usually near other bottles very often.

[74:00]

So the teachings have... This is very funny, because a kind of a dumb person is involved in German. Oh, really? Somebody who's really worse than that. He's just a bot. This, of course, I didn't know. So I have to be careful when I talk about my adept flasher. And also, sometimes you can, with the monastic bottle, You can cork it pretty tight. Put a taco. Then you can shake it, let it fall inside. And you can't do that with light.

[75:14]

So there's these kind of differences that are just, they are real differences. That teach, I have to teach differently in each location. But it's somehow working. At least I think it's working. I mean, you're proof that it's working. But how do we, Anne, give these bottles to the next generation? Somehow with Carolina, you're clearly a second generation. I mean, biologically as well as pedagogically.

[76:03]

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