Let go of everything now. And embrace what your life is now. This is Buddha right now. So, as I said earlier, we need all these different supports to encourage us in this. But that's just a practical matter. Actually we don't need anything. We don't need to do anything. Even Zazen, we don't need it.

[01:03]

Just accept our life as it is now. But because we can't get this very simple idea through our thick skulls, we have to go through all of this stuff, Zazen and all of this. We don't get it through our thick skulls. Skull. Yeah, skull. So it's quite comical, our own stupidity. And the whole world would be laughing constantly if it weren't so tragic at the same time. Because the consequences of our endless stupidity are truly horrible sometimes. Well, that was just an aside What I really want to do is read some poems for you

[02:27]

But just that we were having such a nice conversation with only a few of us, I wanted to share it with everybody. Now, do we have this? Yep. Christian made a translation in advance. This is the thing. It's very difficult. If I read a poem and then ask Christian to translate this poem on the spot, it would be hard. It would be difficult if I read a poem and then ask Christian to translate it spontaneously. That would be very difficult. So even with time, it's still hard. And no matter how well Christian translates, it's not going to be too good.

[03:39]

And that's not anything about Christian. It's just that a poem exists in its own language. It's impossible really to bring it into another language. This is a poem of mine. The name of the poem is How God Gets Into It. I don't know how it is that the word God came into this poem. And I guess by the word God, what I mean is everything that we don't know. which is also right in the middle of our life. What we don't know is the most important thing right in the middle of our lives.

[04:52]

And when we open ourselves to that and recognize how important it is, then this is practice. So here's the poem. I'll read the whole thing first in English and then Christian can read it in German. God comes in the little transitions. the times between, before and after, the shatterings, bendings, breakings, the times of devilment and blasted pose. The feeling then arises, a draft in the system, a tiny shaft of light in a visual field, which, when noticed and affirmed, opens out to an aura on the screen of eclectic ineffability.

[06:10]

One's arms open in quietude and perplexity. There's nothing to say, do, or think. Gott kommt in den kleinen Übergängen, den Zeiten zwischen vorher und nachher, den Erschütterungen, Biegungen, Brüchen, den Zeiten des Übermuts und der gesprengten Pose. Das Gefühl kommt dann auf, Durchzug im System, ein winziger Lichtstrahl im Gesichtsfeld, Well, that was good. And that was not good? Wow, I'm surprised how nice that sounds in German. So God comes in the little transitions.

[07:35]

You know, something that I think about all the time is how is it that time passes? This is another one of these things. When you think about it, it makes no sense at all. Especially in my life now I think like this because first I think now I'm making arrangements to go to Johanneshof Now I'm in Johanneshof Now I left, now I'm gone. It's so odd. What happened to the time that passed?

[08:36]

Where did it go? I mean, is someone keeping it stored somewhere in a closet? If not, where is it? This whole thing here seems fairly real. I mean, it's all dense, you know. And yet... it goes away and where does it go? So it's as if every moment there's a huge chasm between every moment.

[09:36]

No, first, as if. As if. As if. Two words, as if, yeah. I thought it's a slip. So then, every moment is this kind of transition. Every moment is a birth and a death. And we have no idea. We can't have any idea. So that's how God comes in. In these little transitions. When we have a moment in our lives when we fall apart maybe because something terrible happens to us we recognize this.

[11:00]

The rest of the time we miss it. That's why Schmerz is so good. Because in times of Schmerz, even if it's only a backache Schmerz, you become undone. And you realize that you were undone all along. The shatterings, bendings, breakings, times of devilment and blasted pose. In those times you can avoid complaining too much and blaming someone or something for your problems or wishing it weren't so

[12:31]

you see a little tiny point of light. And if you pay attention to that, it opens out and floods everything. And then one's arms open in quietude and perplexity. Because you realize you have no idea what's going on. Your brilliant mind is useless. Things just are. You just are.

[13:50]

There is nothing to say, do or think. But it's very peaceful. And at that time you could live or die. It doesn't matter. Here's another poem. This also is my poem. The title of the poem is What a Wonderful World. It comes from the song of Louis Armstrong.

[14:52]

Do you know this song? It comes from the song of Louis Armstrong. Dee, dee, dee, dee. Dee, dee, dee, dee. Dee, dee, dee, dee. And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. And the poem goes like this. What seems separate, waiting, out there, is actually already dissolved because the moving into it is a giving up of everything that has already been lost anyway, so it's easy to do. Everything works together, even griefs. Nothing more clever than the mind to tangle things up in, without which we couldn't ever do, or even ever appear.

[16:04]

What seems separated is weighty out there. ist eigentlich schon aufgelöst, denn das Hineinbewegen ist ein Allesaufgeben, das schon verloren ist, ohnehin. Also ist es einfach zu tun, alles greift ineinander, sogar der Trauerschmerz ist um nichts klüger als der Geist, darin die Dinge zu verwickeln, ohne den wir nichts je tun könnten oder gar je erscheinen. What seems separated is important out there. ist eigentlich schon aufgelöst.

[17:17]

Denn das Hineinbewegen ist ein Allesaufgeben, das schon verloren ist, ohnehin. Also ist es einfach zu tun. Alles greift ineinander. Sogar der Trauerschmerz ist um nichts klüger als der Geist darin, die Dinge zu verwickeln, ohne den wir nichts je tun könnten oder gar je erscheinen. It's nice. You even got some of the rhyme in there. Yeah. Yeah, there's a little rhyme. See, you may be a success in Germany after all. You're already working on your book, right? It might sell. So... This poem is pretty obvious what it says, you know? Yes, right? Yeah.

[18:18]

Big problems we have. That are already solved. All we have to do is let go of everything. Let go of wanting things to be different. Let go of any effort, of any sense of needing something for ourself. Let go of the fiction that we are what we think we are.

[19:20]

Ladies and gentlemen, we don't know what we are. We really don't know. Something seems to be going on. This seems true But all of our explanations that make us so crazy are wrong Therefore it's easy to let go of everything Because we don't have anything anyway Except our entangling fictions So people think, oh, renunciation is so difficult. How can you give everything up? But it's easy to give up what you never had.

[20:22]

In Tibetan Buddhism there's a wonderful practice of making extravagant offerings to Buddhas. You imagine tremendous jewels and palaces and all kinds of wealth And you give it all away as an offering to Buddha. Well, this is what it's like to give everything up. All these imaginary things that we think we have Such as our life. We can give up easily. Because we never had it to begin with. And it's just a relief. Even our pain. even our confusion.

[22:01]

We think we want to get rid of all that and have some sort of improved life of practice. But even our confusion and our suffering is exactly the confusion and the suffering that we need. It's just right. This is what causes the world to appear. So we have to come to love our own schmerz and confusion Sometimes if you have a child and the child is crying for something Maybe the child is sitting in the high chair at the table and drops something onto the floor.

[23:25]

And she is yelling and screaming as if it were the worst tragedy that ever happened. But you know that it's only there on the floor, easily picked up. So, of course, you feel for the child's crying. You don't trivialize it. But you understand that it's not really as bad as it seems to the child. But you understand that it is really not as bad as it seems to the child. Our own suffering and the suffering of the world is like that. When the child is crying like that, you don't think, what a stupid child, she shouldn't cry like that.

[24:34]

You think, how sad and how beautiful. This is a human life, to cry because something dropped. This is what the child needs. It's a stage the child needs in order to grow up. So the whole world is like that. And we, with our practice, come to appreciate the world in that way. Even suffering and pain. Even our own suffering and pain. I would like to, it's time to take a break, and I would like to just end our morning time with one more short poem, which I forgot to give to Christian.

[25:56]

But we'll see, I think we'll do all right. This is not my poem. It's a poem by one of my heroes. William Carlos Williams. He was a doctor. And he would write poems in between patients. And on the weekends. This poem is called Thursday. Maybe this time it would be better if I read line by line. It's easier for me to read it.

[26:57]

So I read it, the whole thing, and give it to you? Yes. I have had my dream like others and it has come to nothing so that I remain now carelessly with feet planted on the ground and look up at the sky, feeling my clothes about me, the weight of my body in my shoes, the rim of my hat air passing in and out at my nose decide to dream no more. Ich hatte meinen Traum wie die anderen. and nothing has become of it, so that I now, without worry, with my feet firmly planted on the ground, remain and look into heaven.

[28:12]

I feel my clothes on me, the weight of my body and my shoes, the edge of my hat, the air, So when we wake up from our dream, then we have a really beautiful dream. If we wake up from our dream, then we really have a very beautiful dream. Let's take a break. As I was coming back to this room, every time I took a step down our stairs, Sophia was at the top saying, Papa!

[30:18]

Every time I took a step down our stairs, she would say, Papa! This is the practice of everyday Zen. How do I come back here when she's calling me like that? How do I come back here when she's calling like that? But then it happens in a monastery too. At least the kind of monastery that Norman and Kathy lived in. How many years were you in Tassara with your twins? Almost five. Whoa! They were the pioneers of this. Their kids grew up well, you know. They're real smart and talented, all because of Zen.

[31:21]

Well, there's a little genes involved, probably. And the nourishment of Norman and Kathy. Nourishment. Yeah, listening to... Norman speaking and listening to his poems?

[32:25]

But before I say something, I don't know what I'll say, but is there something anyone wants to bring up or to ask Norman? Or talk about? Yeah, please. I especially like the first part. You talked about work and spiritual life. And I find it often quite hard to bring these people together. And I think I know it from many of my friends that it's always a contradiction to them. And I would like that you come back next year and have a seminar about this theme, about this topic, because I think it's a very important question for many of us. So, I would love if you come.

[33:30]

In German, please. I really liked the first part in which Norman talked about his work. of the practice and how one can combine them. And I know that for many of my friends it is always a very difficult topic to bring these two parts of life together in one's own life and not to evaluate one over the other. And I would be very happy if Norm would come back next year and do a seminar on this topic. Because I think that many of us are interested. Once I've just lived, I feel I'm in this transition from monastery life in Creston and re-entering the job life here.

[34:44]

And I feel very much encouraged to try and do this. Thank you. I think we have to do this or Belief practice might work for people, but adept practice won't work unless we actually discover and practice in our ordinary lives. That was difficult, huh? I think we have to believe. I said, what I call belief practice might work for people, but adept practice won't work for people unless we discover how to do it in our ordinary lives, not just in monasteries.

[35:56]

Such a practice of good faith may work for a few people, but the advanced practice only works if we try to implement it in our everyday life. But it seems to me what Norman said was still a pretty big overlap with Sangha practice, with traditional teachings and so forth, in some way, even if you're not living in a monastery. And let's hope it doesn't take us five years in the monastery with our children to learn how to practice at the office. Someone else? Someone who hasn't said anything.

[36:58]

You all know who you are. People start ducking behind somebody. I enjoyed the morning very much. And I had the feeling that I just have to close my eyes and a very precious liquid was poured right into my heart. And I also would like to see you coming back next year. So you're going to save your questions till next year?

[38:24]

Yes, Cathy? As I was listening to Norman this morning, I was reminded that on the subject of suffering, that I feel very differently about my own suffering than I do about others' suffering. And I wondered if you had a comment about that. You mean Norm? Or anyone in the room. How do you feel different?

[39:26]

Well, I guess I feel, because I'm a person of privilege, that I can drop my suffering. I can always do it. I can do it. That my own suffering does have that. unreal quality a dream quality a dream quality but when I consider the suffering of other people especially the suffering of the whole world of other people

[40:32]

But if I consider the suffering of other people, especially the suffering in the whole world, whether it is the children in my class, or the people that I have seen in Latin America, or the people I hear about in the Middle East, I don't feel the same way. I don't feel that I know their suffering. I don't feel that I will know her suffering.

[41:36]

At least not in the same way. What do you mean by that? Do you want to respond to that since this is your wife speaking? Well, this is something very important to make this distinction. and in fact when we finished the morning's session we were going upstairs and Baker Roshi also pointed this out to me that there can be something to about saying the suffering we have is the suffering we need.

[42:57]

Something glib? Yeah, glib. It can be too easy or too... Yeah, maybe just too easy. And certainly... if you're facing another person, regardless of whether the person is privileged or not privileged, you don't say to another person, your suffering that you have now is the suffering that you need. And when you face the suffering of another person, you have to see it as suffering. And when you see the suffering of another person, then you have to say that it is suffering.

[44:16]

And you have to feel the other person's feeling, the sorrow and the grief. And certainly if there's anything at all that you can do to make that suffering less, even if it's only a kind word, you certainly have to do that. So really this morning I was really speaking to all of us as if we were all in the same boat, speaking of our own suffering as if it were my suffering, all the same suffering. In other words, speaking in the context of practitioners together, how we can understand and overcome our suffering.

[45:31]

Speak about how to overcome our own suffering. As I said in the very beginning this morning, I was certain that what I was going to say would be somehow misleading. Because whatever we say, we're only bringing up one side. There's always another side, another aspect in another context. So for myself personally, I have a certain amount of ongoing unhappiness that is caused by my thinking about and my concern for the suffering of others. Personally, for me, I have an ongoing pain about... Oh, I didn't get it... I have an ongoing... Unhappiness Unhappiness because of suffering of others Yes, an ongoing unhappiness because of suffering of others

[47:13]

And that includes people that I know in my life who are having a hard time. Because I know that these people are really experiencing suffering and it's terrible. And most of the time it's not because they deserve this or because somehow they were given this suffering to learn something from it It's just terrible. And I feel that feeling.

[48:18]

Still though, in order for me to feel that feeling and go on living, and also to go on living with happiness. At the same time, I have to understand the dreamlike quality of this subject. so that I can take in this suffering and really feel it and really feel the sorrow but at the same time let go of that and go on with my life so it's a kind of a paradox

[49:21]

On the one hand, suffering is terrible and you can't accept it sometimes. And it seems to me that it would be wrong to accept it. And at the same time, you also must accept it. I remember some years ago during the time of the Gulf War when the United States was sending many bombs in Iraq. And I was at the time leading the practice period. And one of the women in the practice period had a son who was an American soldier stationed in that area.

[50:42]

And she was very worried that her son would go into combat and that harm would come to him. And she was really in agony over this. And the teaching of the Heart Sutra form is emptiness Emptiness as form did not help her one bit She just felt enormous pain over this situation So she couldn't accept the suffering of a situation like this.

[51:55]

And how could I do anything but agree? Yes, it's unacceptable. not only her son, but hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people were being killed. And you couldn't just say, that's just the way they accept this. You had to feel, you know, agony and do whatever you could to try to speak out and stop this kind of thing. And it was especially bad because in America everyone was celebrating. They were treating it like a kind of video game.

[52:57]

And they kept saying, how marvelous it is that no one is getting killed, no one is getting hurt. Because very few Americans were getting hurt. But hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were being killed. And I remember watching the football game, the big football game at the end of the year. And during the halftime entertainment, the theme was American military might. And they were shooting up guns and they had beautiful young girls in short skirts dressed up like soldiers with guns marching up and down.

[54:23]

And there were guns fired and pretty girls in short skirts had guns and marched like soldiers. So this was, I thought, really terrible and unacceptable. And at the same time, one had to accept it somehow. Because it was what life was manifesting. So I think my understanding is that it's necessary for us to live in this paradox. To be as open as we possibly can be to the suffering of others as true suffering. feeling all the sorrow and unhappiness of that.

[55:35]

And at the same time, in order to sustain that feeling, to recognize and accept suffering. So we're always working, I think, the best we can to change bad conditions in our own life and all around us. And at the same time accepting that things are what they are. And at the same time we accept that things are the way they are. So I appreciate both very close friends, Bekaroshi and Kathy, bringing this up.

[56:41]

I appreciate that these two close friends, Kathy and Bekaroshi, brought this up. so as to correct whatever misconceptions might have been caused by my words this morning. So now we have the possibility of new and improved misconceptions. Well, it's certainly central to Buddhist practice, what Kathy and Norman have brought up. And the Eightfold Path, the Buddhist first teaching, is the path to free us from suffering.

[57:56]

And this is central to this teaching at the very core of Buddhism Is it possible to be free of suffering? Yeah, I think it is. But then you have to ask, what kind of suffering? You also have to say, what kind of practice of the Eightfold Path is necessary to free us from suffering? I would say something like, if you want to practice the Eightfold Path in its fullest sense, it's something like, I don't know, twice going to medical school.

[59:01]

Or maybe easier than that. Or twice being a lawyer or something. I only put it in that category not because... I put it in that category... I speak of it that way. But because we take it for granted that going to medical school or law school or some kind of professional education It is extremely demanding for a number of years. Well, if you expect the transformation to occur, which frees you from suffering, You have to at least be willing to put in the kind of effort you put in to go to

[60:37]

medical school or law school or something like that. And generally we think we can do practice sort of as we go along in our life as a kind of hobby. Yeah, and we can do that. That's actually the way most of us practice and it's quite beneficial. But let's look at this extraordinary possibility of freedom from suffering. Now we can't, in the last minutes of this seminar, start practicing and teaching the Eightfold Path.

[61:46]

Yeah, but as Narman said this morning, we have to imagine a Buddha is possible. And that means that whatever we imagine a Buddha to be has to be possible for us. As I say, if we want such a person to exist, then we have to be that person. If we make that effort, maybe such a person will appear. Or we're not that separate. For we're not that separate from each other. So if we imagine the possibility, and I'm just using it as an idea, that it is possible to be free of suffering, or it is possible to be happy,

[63:25]

Or it is possible to be in love. You wouldn't say, I refuse to be in love because other people aren't in love. If you have the opportunity to be in love, take it. As long as it doesn't cause too much suffering, which it does sometimes. Because even the person in the worst conditions we can imagine wants to be free of suffering. wants to be happy, perhaps, and often wants to be in love. So someone should do that in this world.

[64:41]

And not, I think, feeling guilty, oh, I'm happy and others aren't. If no one's happy in this world, it's not much of a world. And I think Narman is right when he says that Suffering can be just what we need. And the paradox of this path to a freedom from suffering is that the path is coerced in always accepting suffering. The path is walked by accepting suffering.

[65:50]

The way this world is, the initial movement is always acceptance. At least that's the way I see it. The second move can be, how can I change this? How can I transform this? But the mind that accepts as it is has to be our starting point. And the point we always return to. Actually moment after moment. So the suffering, the extraordinary challenge is to make the suffering we have the suffering we need.

[67:05]

But it's not automatically so that the suffering we have is the suffering we need. The suffering we have is the suffering we have. That's true. But I don't think we can say, for instance, all those people in Russia now who lost their children over Bodensee have the suffering they need. If we really extended thinking that way, the airplane company would just tell the people, well, you have the suffering you need. Again, thank you. the airplane company would just tell the families, well, you have the suffering you need, and we're not even going to fly safe airplanes because we're intending to give you the suffering you need.

[68:15]

And we try to prevent suffering. That must be because in some way we know we don't always need to suffer. We try to prevent suffering. We try to make airplanes safe. Because somehow we know that we don't always need to suffer. And people... And many of us don't make the suffering we have the suffering we need. I've noticed every now and then some prominent person disappears from view. He was the science advisor to Kennedy or something. And then you never hear of him again.

[69:35]

And you find out his child was killed in a bicycle accident. And he was just the rest of his life. He was just unable to function. So Hopefully the suffering we have is the suffering we need. That's the challenge, I think, of practice. I think all of us can be broken. And I think you see whole cultures where much of the population is broken by suffering. Not everyone, thank goodness. Otherwise, there wouldn't be humans on the planet. Because such extreme conditions have probably been part of all of our ancestry.

[70:38]

because extreme conditions have probably been part of all of our ancestry. But I think we have to distinguish, at least I find, I have to distinguish between... What can I say? contextual life and institutional life. But I don't know if I have a word for that, but I don't know if those are good words for what I mean, but that's what I'll use now. Institutional life is like if I read about this airplane crash, even though parts of it probably fell on Marie Louise's family's property.

[72:01]

And Marie-Louise was just driving through there yesterday. And there's still Lines and lines of police cars and helicopters and so forth everywhere. Hunting for body parts in trees and things like that. In trees, yeah. But still, I know this institutionally, really. I know it through newspapers and reports.

[73:03]

But, you know, most of you, and more and more in the Dharma Sangha, you select for English. In Darwin's theory, you select for certain fitness landscapes. The dharmasanga slowly selects for people who speak English. In the earlier days, a larger percentage of you didn't speak English. And for a number of you, I think I'm your English teacher. And you have conversations at work and you sound like a Buddhist.

[74:04]

Yeah. But even if we didn't translate, because now so many of you know English, and each of you can, most of you can understand if I say one or two things to you, but I think many of you, if the whole lecture was only in English, you'd lose the context after a while. Your body wouldn't follow the lecture after a while. So the translation is, I think, for your bodies, not for your mind. And I've had this experience in Holland in particular. They're very proud that everyone knows English there.

[75:17]

But if I only lecture in English, there's no translation. Pretty soon, within ten minutes or so, people aren't understanding me anymore. Because the English doesn't speak to their body, it speaks to their minds. And pretty soon I can't physically feel what they're understanding. So there's a context here that Norman and I and Christian are supplying. And you are supported. And we can feel this context. In this context we can respond to each other's suffering. And I can try to do something about it. And each of us can try to do something about it.

[76:38]

But what we read about in the newspaper, it's kind of institutional suffering, which we can know and be deeply pained by. And for me, I don't know, it's normal, but the bottom line is always the situation of the worst person on the planet. Sure, I may have complaints about my situation But they don't I'm not very deep because I know, as Kathy said, they're very privileged all of us.

[77:48]

Yeah, we're going to... I don't know, should we continue? What time is lunch? 1 or 1.30 or 2 o'clock? 1, but we can change that. Yeah, is it cold food or hot food or... No, it doesn't matter. There's a stove. We can always keep things hanging. Well, should we stand up and take a stretch, and then we can continue for about half an hour, 30, 20 minutes each time? Yeah, I don't know. I see. I was surprised.

[79:07]

Where's Sophia? We don't ask. Papa! Well, as most of you know, I'm very interested in understanding how our mind works and how this introduction of this wisdom posture into our culture is going to change the imagination of, our experience of, an imagination of what a human being is.

[80:20]

When we were driving here from Freiburg, I picked up Kathy and Norman in Freiburg on Friday from the train station. And Kathy reminded Norman of what he's been thinking about recently. Wives are four, spouses are ten. Kathy reminded Norman of what he's been thinking about recently. That's what marriage partners are for. Sometimes I ask Marie-Louise, what have I been thinking about recently? Sometimes I ask Marie-Louise, what have I been thinking about recently? Anyway, and what you said, Norman, I was particularly felt, and I wonder if you could supply us with your answer again. You particularly felt what Norman said about sitting, remember?

[81:37]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It takes two of us to remind him. Yes. Well, lately I've been thinking of Zazen as being simply returning to the feeling of being alive. I mean, everything that goes on in our life, all that's good as well as all that's bad, sort of depends on the foundation of the fact that we are alive. Without that, our problems and our joys don't exist. But we pay no attention to this whatsoever.

[83:01]

The fact of our being alive. We're absorbed with our problems and our joys and we completely forget about the fact that basically we are alive. So when we sit in zazen, we just let go of everything and return to the basic feeling of being alive. So even right now, while I'm talking, it's actually possible to return your awareness to your body and your breathing And simply feel the feeling of being alive. Feel the feeling of awareness itself.

[84:07]

Das Gefühl, das Gewahrsein selbst zu empfinden. Of sentient life itself. Das empfindsame Leben selbst. So I think this is how lately I feel about Sansevier. That's how I feel about Sazen lately. That's why I think Sazen is so deep and important. Because there's something that's already healing and already very sane about simply being aware of resting in the fact that we are alive. Weil da etwas heilsames und gesundes darin liegt, einfach die Tatsache zu spüren und in ihr zu ruhen, dass wir lebendig sind.

[85:37]

And of course it is necessary for us to cross our legs and sit quietly for us to touch the feeling of being alive. It is necessary? It isn't. And of course it is not necessary for us to cross our legs and sit quietly to feel that we are alive? Because as long as we are alive, that feeling is always right there. It's never far away. But practically speaking, it seems to help to sit in zazen. And I really appreciate the genius of the simplicity of this. That the Buddha and all our ancestors in the Dharma have passed on to us this very simple way of appreciating and feeling the fact of being alive.

[86:57]

that the Buddha and all our ancestors have given us this simple path to be alive, to feel, and to appreciate. So this is what I've been thinking about lately. This is what I've been thinking about lately. Which I remember when someone points it out to me. And I remember when someone points it out to me. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way And I think touching that experience of just being alive And the unavoidable, undeniable impermanence of it is also inseparable from a decision to be alive.

[88:13]

And I think the decision Intention to be alive is a huge part of our health and vitality. And many of us don't recognize that actually we haven't really made that decision fully. I think psychotherapists discover that in people. But somehow Zazen brings us to that place where we can see that we made that decision or not. Our intentional body is...

[89:15]

in a way more real or actual than our physical body than our physical body Sukhiroshi once went in the early, when he first came to America, was invited to go to Stanford University and speak about Buddhism. Rather well-known story, Sukhiroshi Moore. And he decided not to say anything, but just get everyone to move the chairs aside and show them how to sit.

[90:42]

He seemed to feel that if I can just give a feeling of sitting to even one or two people, that's more important than anything I might say to them, say to their minds. And although I really want to be able to teach A Buddhism that doesn't depend on zazen. My experience is that there's maybe two kinds of zazen, two kinds of Buddhism. One rooted in perhaps the teachings and another rooted in sitting practice. I'd say all Buddhism arises from sitting practice.

[91:51]

But all Buddhism practice doesn't have to be personally rooted in sitting. But there is a difference when you do sit I keep working that One thing I pointed out quite often in him is that, you know, as we're born with, as you know, the mind of deep sleep, the dreaming mind and the waking mind, And the mind of dreaming and deep sleep are rather separate from our consciousness.

[92:54]

but somehow daily sitting practice allows this blissful mind of deep sleep to surface into awareness or to surface as Awareness, as blissful awareness. And if you don't sit for a week or two or three, it's there, but it sinks beneath the surface. And I find, you know, I've been sitting regularly for 40 years.

[94:14]

Five years. What a hopeless case I am. Forty years.

[94:26]

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