Good afternoon. I hope you had good lunch. Now many of you, most of you, many of you have been to Johanneshof for seminars. Yeah, and other reasons too. And some of you, like Ralph, have lived there for a while as well. And some of you, like... Nicole lived in Johanneshof and Crestone. And some of us, like David and I, lived in obscure locations for years. Okay, so I'd just like to hear from you now what you make of this monastic path or city path or lay life or lay sangha.

[01:27]

And the sense of mundane as positively part of the world. But are we any less part of the world at Johanneshof? Are we? I don't know. What is this satisfying individual life? Voluntary life. So anyone? Yes. I would like to say to you that I feel very thankful for what you talked about maybe yesterday.

[02:47]

After you never said this, there was some kind of surprise when you said that. And this is really what I fear what is maybe the difference between the anarchistic practice and the lay practice. I don't know. I'm beginning to request my own. But what I would say is to participate in this machine. Maybe it's equally to be in a monastic tradition. Yeah. Now, just can I... Deutsch bitte. And in general, I'd like people to start in Deutsch if you can. I can't, but, you know... In general, it would be good if you speak German first. I feel very grateful for what Roshi said, and even yesterday it inspired me a lot.

[03:56]

Yesterday he seemed to be amazed by what he himself said. He said, I never said that before. Maybe this is an example of how you can have an intention, And I can see a kind of difference when you're here Of course, you are also a master, but you are a teacher. You give us good tools to come in. But it's mainly good instructions.

[05:03]

When you are in a session, there's the wooden stick from your master. And for me, what I remember is that Now, talking is happening. Talking happens. So it's not so much intended. It's just, it comes out. I think this is really important to bring it also in the lay process. Maybe all the lay practitioners should participate in this issue, in some way. So they're in it for a target for them. Yeah, sashins are portable monasteries. You can carry them around, do them various places. But some of us are getting too old to do sashins. I'm not quite yet included in that, some of us.

[06:07]

Thank you. Someone else? Yeah. I have already sat very often in sessions and seminars and now I notice that my feeling of sitting here is actually just as beautiful as in the Johanneshof. And I would personally wish that maybe in the future you think a little more about North Germany and maybe add one or the other seminar in North Germany. I was very surprised what you said about Johanneshof. I myself am from Hamburg and have been doing quite a few sessions and seminars at Johanneshof.

[07:17]

And I notice now that being here I have a very similar good feeling in how this feels, how I sit here. just like I do when I'm at Johanneshof. So I would wish for one to include Northern Germany more in where seminars are taking place. But this is my Northern Germany seminar. Yes. At gunpoint. Yeah. You want me to come to Hamburg, you mean? Yes, I also appreciate very much when you came to Hamburg. The other day, yeah. Well, a number of people from Hamburg are here, and some Berlin people are here, and no one from Hannover. Oh! Well, I mean, yeah.

[08:28]

But it's an interesting idea to wonder, should I stop doing seminars altogether, Johannes Saab, and just do them like I used to 14 years ago in various cities here and there? I mean, I'm not saying, but let's, obviously I'm doing both to some extent. In other words, it's also our seminars, like in Hannover or Hamburg or someplace, Different because the participants have also done seminars or sashins at Johanneshof. Do I bring Johanneshof with me? And do you bring Johanneshof with you? When I came to Germany, I just planned to just come here and, I don't know, my life was in a state of, you know, of emptiness.

[09:46]

No. Something or other. And I didn't know what I was going to do next. I didn't think I was going to be doing this in Europe. I just came for a visit. But I seemed to have brought Tassajara with me. And people said, I can see that invisible Tassajara around you. Is there a room in that invisible Zendo you're bringing with you to sit? Anyway, I'm just throwing out ideas. Anyone else? Oh, I forgot to mention, he's also lived it. Not just Ralph. Yes, and how is it that this time in Johanneshof, I first practiced seminars with Rorschach for a long time, then at some point I went to Johanneshof, then I got to know the history in Germany, there were many seminars, first one, two, then a lot of them outside of Johanneshof, then a lot in Johanneshof, then I did Sessions, practice weeks, and then I lived in Johanneshof for ten months and then out again.

[11:28]

So what I did is I participated in very many of your seminars and came to Johanneshof also a lot for years and years. And then after doing that for a while, I went to live at Johanneshof for 10 months and then moved out again. And my experience is that the most, the experiences that have sustained themselves to a large extent, and also the nachhaltigste, okay, that experience was living at Yohanneshof. Das ist als ob da, ja, wie ein Stück Haus, vorher gab es hier Fragmente eines Gebäudes, oder eines Gebildes, und es ist als ob es da unbemerkbar zusammengebaut wurde. And it is as though before there were many fragments of a building or a house and as though when I was at Johanneshof this was all somehow secretly put together, invisible together.

[12:37]

But I did not notice that while being there. Only now, one and a half years later, I notice that incrementally. Oh, and you helped put it together when you were there because it was one of those shaky periods when we don't know quite what we're doing. And for the current practice and also in the normal, in the city life that I have on the one hand, the mountain life is constantly present. It always changes back and forth, also in the activity. I noticed that I immediately went through, often through hearing, through standing. Many everyday practices have manifested themselves. And now in ordinary life, in the city life that I'm leading now, I notice that the mountain life is always present. It shifts back and forth. And in the midst of activity, I notice that mostly through pausing for a moment, I notice that this mountain feeling is there.

[13:47]

OK. Someone else? Yes? since you took part in Europa-Lest. And you have always been a member of the Schildsorg, especially in the last few years. And you have also participated in similar events, which was vital for my life. I never asked myself whether I wanted to go to the monastery completely. It was a question out of two reasons. Because I thought What I can take on, or who I can take part in, in practice, it seemed enough to me, it was intense enough, because I had done several sessions in a year. In addition, of course, the relationship with Erasmus was always clearly achievable.

[14:51]

So it developed in such a way that I actually feel it all the time, even if I'm not in it. And that's something that connects me anyway, but also reminds me of something that somehow also interacts with me. It's not the Johannesburg, it's the relationship. And that's one thing. The other thing is that I think I can We are diverse beings, diverse people. What we don't have in our hands, so to speak, what is not changeable for human beings and without further. And I have the feeling that in the city life, that they come closer to their rights. Are you intending to translate yourself? Well, I mean, unless you think you can do it, it was ten minutes of talking.

[16:15]

I'm sorry, yes. It's all right. Forty years of practice. Ten minutes. Not ten minutes, I'm saying. Relating to Andreas, we have practiced together since you came here. And for me, the intensity of doing sessions regularly with you and Minas was as much as I thought was good and right. They didn't want to do more. It was a multinational monastery. And over those years, the relationship to you, which was, from the beginning, was more and more developed, more and more, it was in a way more palatable that I feel it now, it also carried around with me if we don't see each other. So this is sort of what I feel constantly, yes, with the silver tabs, of course.

[17:17]

And on the other hand, I don't think that this experimental play practice has come to its end for me. So it's not... exhausted. I hope not. Mine neither. Plus the multiplicity of our being and our persona, whatever we are, which we can't sort of voluntarily alter, comes to its or their right more in that life in the city which we are leading. Yeah, thank you. Yes? I have a more technical question about the negation of the watermelon. Because this negating feels like something that seems to happen relatively often all by itself.

[18:34]

So is it important to actually say no? Or is the effect mainly in the fact that you add something to it? If you always say no to it, you can also say something about it. So is that the actual effect or is it actually a letter of no? Or is the actual effect in always doing something extra, so to say, in each thing, always adding this one thing, which could also be a watermelon, for example, is that the effect, or is the effect in really particularly saying no? Yeah. You can think of mu or no. Or yes, what is it and no harm. As a kind of greeting. You're like greeting each moment. And Yeah, and if you see somebody, you can just see them, but there's some difference when you greet them.

[20:01]

So the practice of actually greeting them, of greeting each moment, um, One, it creates a habit. Yeah. And it's, again, the level of difference if you see a lot of people and you don't greet them when you first see them, or if you do greet them when you first see them. So you bring your attention to a kind of closure by greeting. And then you release it.

[21:02]

And the practice of knowing each appearance as a Dharma is a practice of receiving and releasing. If you don't release, then you're so stuck. Okay. Now, if you practice, let's say, receiving and releasing, that's already a little different than greeting. And if you practice receiving and releasing using those two words to bring attention to the immediate situation, And finding a way to bring attention to the immediate situation. Until it becomes a habit. And when it is a habit that you inhabit, Yeah, you can stop.

[22:45]

And then it's happening, sort of, because it's now the way you instantiate each moment. Okay. But if you continue the practice of it, you begin to notice that between receiving and releasing, there's something else going on. And then you notice what's going on in there. And then you find the best way to know what's going on in there between receiving and releasing is discovered by adding the word completing. So there's receiving and completing and releasing. And then you've discovered that the completing between receiving and releasing is an actual fact, the duration of the present.

[24:09]

dass das eine wirkliche Tatsache ist, nämlich die Dauer der Gegenwart. Because in this vast flashing into vastness, denn in diesem Aufblitzen in die Unermesslichkeit, the present actually has no duration. Past, as I say, past, past, not yet, etc. Da hat die Gegenwart tatsächlich immer keine Dauer, so wie ich das sage. Das ist schon vergangen und vergangen. And the experience of the present as duration is within your own cognitive and perceptual activity. So the present exists through duration. The present, to the extent it exists, is your experience. So by taking two words, like receiving and releasing, and starting out with greeting each moment with hello or what is it?

[25:17]

You become inseparable from the present. The present is your own experience. You don't have time, etc. You are time. So somehow, in one sense, you don't need to do these things. But if you begin to identify processes, by the noticing of those processes through identification, you make them more and more subtle.

[26:35]

Yeah. So it's a way of making your experience more subtle, actually. First it's a way of noticing it, and then you notice it at more and more subtle levels through noticing. Can I say it again? By noticing your... cognitive and perceptual experience, and that the world is its appearance in your cognitive and perceptual sphere, The act of developing a way of noticing leads you to more and more subtle ways of noticing. And ways you're more and more a participant in the layering of interdependence.

[27:46]

You know, Foucault said, writing writes writing. Foucault has said that writing is writing. And that's definitely true. If you think your way into your writing, it's different than when you write, writing it leads you somewhere. The famous physicist and scientist Poincaré, is that how you pronounce his name? Poincaré. Poincaré. Poincaré, okay. Poincaré. Are you leaving us? Oh, you're sitting in the chair.

[28:47]

I mean, he rivals Einstein in brilliance and exceeds him in productivity. He rivals Einstein in creativity and leads him in productivity. In every field he was extremely brilliant. And he makes a point of saying he often didn't know what he was doing. He'd start out with an equation. That's an interesting equation. Sort of write it a different way. We have his notes. I mean, people have his notes. I don't. Then you write it a different way. Oh, then you can think of the other side of that equation. And two or three days later, by fooling around like that and doodling, he changed Western physics.

[30:01]

damit gespielt hat eigentlich, hat er die westliche Physik verändert. Und das hat er immer und immer wieder jahrelang so gemacht. Also hat er sich von Unterscheidungen führen lassen. Reicht auch. Vielen Dank für deine gute Frage. Ich weiß nicht, ob ich sie wirklich beantwortet habe. Yes. We can come back if you want. Or you want to continue? You answered it. I have specifically asked him no, because in my experience in this practice, the language actually has an incredible power over the experience of reality. I asked specifically about the snow because my experience is that language has an enormous power over experience.

[31:20]

Snow? No. No, oh, no, yeah. We are drifting somewhere. Yeah. So practicing to always say no is in my experience very different from always saying yes. Yes. And you try both. And you see which is the better watermelon. It's good to try both. So this negation was also the topic of the winter branches and I first found that to be quite alienating and didn't really know how to relate to that. And after these winter branches, it became a kind of tick for me or something that whenever I saw something, I'd say, no, this is not a butterfly or no, this is not a cloud.

[32:40]

And that came to become a kind of irritation or confusion in my reasoning. And that somehow stopped the moment and that's how the spatial aspect came into it too. And then all of a sudden there was more space than the space that I just have through my conditioning and much more space than I can usually notice because I have this conditioning to always name things immediately.

[33:53]

And so this negating really became a present because it really adds something to how and what I see. Well, I'm glad you trusted practice enough that even if it irritated you, you still practiced it. And discovered, you know, what happens. And I'm quite sure The butterfly said, thank you for freeing me from being a butterfly. I'm a butterfly for it. Sorry. Yes, Roland? Goethe? Ten years ago, for me, there was no mountain life.

[35:36]

All there was was a city life. There was no Zazen, there was no Bakeroshi, there was no Sashin, there was nothing. And now ten years later, I have full program. And now ten years later, I have full program. And what about mountain life? So, when I think about what kind of energy is in this mountain life, I am very grateful. If I now think about the power that is in this lay life or in this mountain life, I am very grateful. and would like to add to what Neil said about this potential that is still implicit in this.

[36:42]

There are a whole lot of experiences that can be made and that are always fresh again, just like we got this morning the full dose. This morning you got the full dose. And now the difficult part comes. You come from this intense practice, from a sashin or from a seminar, from three days Bakeroshi. And now you have... And now you have to integrate it.

[37:44]

You have to synchronize city life and mountain life. And that's where I'm very grateful about having a sangha because it really helps me to hear what Tara says and Andrea says about how they integrate this mountain life into city life. And I think from my point of view, we need this lay practice. But my concern is also that the measuring tape, to participate in it, to understand what is being offered here, what is being thought and felt here, the measuring tape is simply very high for many people.

[38:45]

But my feeling is that the measurement for what we think here and what we speak about here, this is a very high level to do this. And for many people, it is probably just very high. I mean, how we're doing this is too high a level for beginners or something like that. Listen to the abstract level we are talking about. It's very high, and it's what you said about the language, which is a very powerful tool. And I don't know how many people we exclude this kind of modeling and use of language from actually participating in the core of what this practice has to offer. Yeah, maybe it's true. Well, of course, I don't think it's high.

[39:56]

I think it's accurate. And I don't think it's abstract. As far as I'm concerned, I'm trying to always make it experiential. I may be wrong. But I never say a word without my feeling of the experience of the word and the experience of the practice. I find myself experiencing it as I'm speaking. Now, I may not succeed at that. And I know that some people find my way of speaking too intellectual or too philosophical or something. And no matter how fully I try to make what I'm doing accessible to anybody who wants to pay attention, there's no question that

[40:57]

What I do excludes some people or doesn't include some people. And that's why there's other teachers for those people. And some of the things you brought up about how to integrate it, what to do after a seminar or a session, Although I want you to speak with each other in small groups later this afternoon. Later today or tomorrow I want to see if I can find specific things that bring the mountain into the city. My goal is to get there if I can with you. And you know the word every temple in Japan is called a mountain.

[42:22]

It can be in downtown Tokyo. And it's called a mountain. So the mountain path can be in the city, though sometimes it looks like a temple. You were going to say something? Yeah, just shortly related to what? When it applies to what you do or learn, it can be felt. If it can be felt, it is not an intellectual training to learn or feel. That means, fundamentally, there is an access.

[43:23]

If this is true, what you're saying, then it can be filled. What you say can be filled. If what I'm saying is true, accurate, it allows you, although it's not accessible at first, to start filling it. And so far it doesn't need intellectualism to understand or to participate. I hope not. Well, that's my experience. Yeah, good. So principally it doesn't excite people. Yeah, I hope not. Thank you. David, do you have anything to say to this? Hmm. Why can he say, hmm, and it's funny? Can I learn from you, David? Well, I feel a lot in common with what I hear coming from people here.

[44:43]

And, you know, I've been... contemplating the mountain, what is the mountain, what is the usual, the city. When I first came to the Zen Center in 1966 and met you, Sokoji, the Japanese temple, that was the mountain. It was. And... Soon after I came, there was a big campaign to get a retreat which ended with us buying Tassajara.

[46:07]

And I moved to Tassajara very soon after we bought it. Suzuki Roshi made me wait a month because Seeing it in terms of the present discussion, it still wasn't as much mountain as the city. He felt there weren't enough older students there, and I was a pretty new student. But anyway, I got there pretty early, maybe just because we needed people there. And you looked like one, so... I passed.

[47:21]

So... Very quickly we developed a monastic schedule and it very quickly became the monastery, the mountain. But of course each individual would bring The city to the mountain are bringing their problems there. Individual problems and social problems.

[48:25]

And then... And Suzuki Roshi started coming more and more. And Baker Roshi started coming more and more. Except I wasn't Baker Roshi. That's right, that's right. I was Dickie. Richard started coming more and more. And Richard is then auch immer öfter gekommen. And he was like a senior student, emerging teacher then. And so the monastic... forms, the schedules, especially the schedule, started coming together.

[49:42]

And the students wanted, there was a tendency for many people to want more and more form, more schedule and more rules. And more Zazen. And Suzuki Roshi had a sense of balance. So one thing I noticed him doing was holding this, he had to hold back The desire of people to, you know, have, you know, maximum rules scheduled. And he had to hold people back so that they, that they, that they had a maximum of rules and timetables and rules.

[50:42]

And people would want to have sashin all the time. And he'd say, and I did notice a lot of this sort of thing coming up. He'd say, well, maybe one or two sashins a year is enough. And he said, maybe one or two sashins a year is enough. So what the mountain was, what the monastery was, was something they were discovering being together there. And it was important to learn not to impose our assumptions on it. And so, you know, I can say many, many more things, but then let's say at some point an individual would go back to the city.

[52:03]

It might be by their own choice, or it might be by the suggestion of Suzuki Roshi, or the officers, you know, some combination. And that's definitely part of the process in our lineage. And then... Ideally, we take some of the mountain with us and go back. And like Roshi said, you have Sashins and you have Zazen and you have the mountain arising in your life outside of the monastery.

[53:05]

And who knows why our lives go the way they do, but sometimes we get very far from the practice. But it's always right there to reinvigorate you or to go back to more formally. And I think we can think of it differently like we can think of breathing in is the mountain.

[54:21]

And breathing out is like the image of the hermit coming back to the village Oh, but still gifts. But still gifts? Yes, to share their... Okay. Thank you. Do you remember the burnables? Oh, yeah. Were you part of the Burnables? Yeah. We, you know, because we also brought the city to the monastery.

[55:23]

And that was the 60s, you know, the Fillmore Auditorium, Big Brother and the Holding Company, the Grateful Dead, etc. Jefferson Airplane. Jefferson Airplane used to come down and practice at Tassajara. In fact, I have some funny stories about that, which I'll repress. Negate. But we had trash cans marked burnables. And we used the trashcan covers as musical instruments. And it said burnable on it, so we called the group the Burnables. And David is a musician and a singer. So he was one of the leaders of the Burnables.

[56:25]

And I remember we had a mid-practice period party once. And Suzuki Roshi got involved and he created a light show. He got a lamp and then he got some piece of cardboard and he kept holding it in front of the lamp and flying. So we brought the 60s to the mountain. Okay, so let's have a break. And I'll put you in charge for making small groups, boss. That's up to you.

[57:32]

Five? Whatever. Okay, thank you very much. Oh, and listen, just let's continue this discussion. No special topic, just continue this discussion. That's what I suggest.

[57:45]

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