One thing that interests me is that I often hear from Roshi when I or someone talks about psychological dynamics and also pain. That he then always says again and again, I would not try to heal it, but I just study it. One thing that I'm interested in is that I sometimes hear you say, when I speak about or somebody speaks about psychological pain and also psychological dynamics, but primarily like pain, some kind of psychological pain, that then I hear you say something like, I wouldn't try to heal it. Just study it and see how it changes, see its dynamic. Also betrachte die Dynamik und schau, wie sich das verändert auch. And I find that interesting as an approaching psychologist, because my impression is that in psychology there is a balance between acceptance and change.

[01:09]

But in therapy, the idea is basically to try to heal it or change it somehow. Well, at least... No? I don't, but... my impression is from psychology that even though there is this idea of having a balance between accepting whatever you notice and changing the pain but since people come because they want change the main idea is somehow to get better and to find a way to heal things And also culturally I think that's the first impulse you have when you know something is somehow wrong or feels bad. So I'd be interested in hearing what's behind this idea of study it and see how it changes.

[02:14]

Don't try to heal it. Okay. Okay. You were going to say something? Yeah. Thank you. I'll keep it in mind. I'd like to hear about focusing and Buddhist concepts and hear about how they are similar and how they relate, but also how they are different. Okay. Yes, Ralph? I always thought it was a central paradoxical element. I would like you to say something about that, because I think in psychotherapy there are also such paradoxes.

[03:25]

For example, you said that patients come to be healed or to get rid of their pain. I'd like to hear more about bodhisattva vows, because what I see in there is some kind of fundamental paradox. And I also see that in psychotherapy and psychology, like the example that I mentioned, that somehow there's the idea you want to get better, but at the same time you don't really want to change somehow. So there's a paradoxical job that's given to the psychotherapist. I'd like to hear about these paradoxes. And what paradoxes do you hear in the Bodhisattva vows? I mean the desires are inexhaustible. But I vow to overcome that.

[04:35]

It's a paradox. Well, it's an ideal. The basic idea behind that is something like, I vow to enlighten you. So there's the problem, you see. If I'm going to vow to enlighten him, if I can, then why not her too? And then, oh, maybe I'll limit it to 50. Right? That's a lifetime's work. Can I be the 51st? So eventually it's all sentient beings. So your direction should be all desires, all sentient beings. Obviously we're not going to succeed, but it's a better vow than, well, I think I'll eliminate 50% of my desires. And not only do, I would call it a quest intent.

[05:47]

It's a quest and an intent. But end them can also mean to be free of them or not identified with them. It can mean all kinds of things. Yeah, so it's a formula that works in you. It's not meant to be a philosophical truth. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Elizabeth? What you said about the continuity of authority made me think again about identity, because I believe that in Western psychotherapies, identity is also worked on as something desirable, a stable and positive identity.

[07:12]

When you talked about the continuity of alterity, that made me again think about identity. Because I think that in Western psychotherapy, we work on identity also as a positive thing to strengthen and to establish. But at the same time, there's also the idea to loosen or to get rid of firm patterns I would be interested to hear what kind of alternative Buddhism has because as far as I understood so far Buddhism lets go of the concept of identity Well, it depends what you mean by identity. I mean, I'm not going to try to respond to that now because I'd like to hear from everyone.

[08:33]

But you clearly need a strong sense of the functions of self, if not the entity of self, in order to exist. But that's already a shift when you stop thinking of self as an entity and start thinking of it as functions, and then how do you develop or make use of those functions? But we might say, yes, for instance, the kind of person which has the most problem with Buddhist practice and meditation practice are borderline cases. So you need some strong sense of self or some way of anchoring your existence.

[09:43]

Also brauchst du ein starkes Gefühl vom Selbst, um deine Existenz irgendwie zu verankern. The problem is in a lot of this conversation is that we apply words to experiences And the words imply entitiness. I apply a word that implies continuity to something that's actually discontinuous because that's what words do. So I would say in Buddhism, we need a strong sense of self to practice and to live.

[10:58]

But then I would say, but we in Buddhism don't want to identify with that self as the whole of us. Because our life is more than that self. That's an approach to what you said. Yes, Hans. Perhaps say that in order to overcome identity, you must go through a relatively strong identity as a process, I would say. And in the end, isn't it the aim to overcome the identity in a sort of non-identity that is the highest form of identity, perhaps?

[11:59]

I try to see it a little bit like this just to know whether this is wrong or not. Well, no, the words sound right. So first of all, the words sound right. Excuse me, Roshi, can you translate yourself? In German? Yes. Yes, I have the feeling that you don't have to overcome identity. It's an obstacle. But in order to overcome it, you need a relatively strong and clear identity to get there, so that you can also capture the non-identity, which is the higher and more important thing for me. I could add that in philosophical discussions I have great problems with the I. The philosophers think that the I would be an important prerequisite for many thoughts. And then I always point out that the I does not exist as something existing, but exists only as a process that can change radically,

[13:10]

One thing I would add to that is that in philosophical thinking there is the idea that the I is a really important aspect from which to think. But at the same time it is said that the I is not a persistent entity, but that the I changes radically. And in the same vein I would maybe talk about identity, how that is talked about as a process that changes. Well, I would say that the words you've said are, yeah, they're pretty much what I would say too. But then the question is, you know, what really do we, how do we actualize these words?

[14:13]

And the same words can describe a number of different kinds of actualizations. But that kind of view, let's call that a view that you just expressed, In Buddhism we'd say, yes, come to a view like that. And then let that view inform you the minutia of your life. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Yes. I would be interested in what you can say about the Buddhist way of understanding the body, the concept of the body, in contrast to the way we use it in body therapy, for example.

[15:26]

I would be interested in how, if you could say something about the concept of the body in Buddhism and also in contrast to the concept of body in psychotherapy where we've introduced the term to expand the realm of psychotherapy. For example, you speak of different bodies. We do not have one body in the Buddhist sense, but a body of wisdom or a social body, or quite many probably. I would just like to hear more about it. For example, you also talk about different bodies in Buddhism. It seems we don't have just one body, but you talk about the wisdom body or, you know, several kinds of bodies. And that is just something that I'd be interested in hearing about. Well, I've certainly over the years talked a lot about the body. Sometimes I feel that you've heard so much about it, I should talk about something else.

[16:42]

But it's a continuous interest to me, and if I speak about the alive as Jnana, I have to speak about the body. Yeah, so I will try. But it would help me if you gave me an idea of what in contemporary psychotherapy or in the approach you think about or are concerned with what the body is or how you speak about the body. But it would help me if you gave me a feeling of what this concept of the body in contemporary psychotherapy or in the school from which you speak, the approach from which you speak, what the word body means there. My experience is that it is relatively inaccurate how it is used.

[17:43]

My experience is that it is quite imprecise how it is used. Imprecise, yes. When I take my personal experience, when I feel my so-called body, in the zazen for example, that I am directly aware that this actually does not exist at all. And that when I take my own experience, let's say, in zazen of my body, then I come to the point where I would say that it doesn't exist like this. It doesn't exist like psychotherapy sometimes says it exists. So the experience is more that I think about the body and connect my experience to this thinking than that I... I mean, I can describe it from the outside as an object and maybe also experience it, but from the inside... my experience is that I rather think the body and then that I somehow attach my experience to that thought body and that from the outside I can touch it and I can see it as an object or attach it as an object but from the inside it's like a parallel process somehow and I can't quite describe it but it's different

[19:07]

Is this, so maybe you've just answered this, but I would ask, what body do you come to know or how do you, what body do you come to know through Sesshin practice? By the way, Sashin is, so most of you would know, but it's when we sit seven days from about, well here in Johanneshof we sit from 4.30 or wake up at 4.30 and sit from 5 until about 9.30 for seven days. And on the second day, concrete is poured over your legs so you don't move. This is not true. But... But we do have breaks every 30 or 40 minutes and we have meals, but even the meals we sit cross-legged.

[20:22]

So you eventually have to give up and if you give up maybe a different body appears. So what body appears? What I would say what I'm encountering is the physical side of mind, or the mind as physis. Yes. And this is not fixed, but a process and it moves and it has nothing to do with my body scheme or something like that. Sometimes I have the feeling that I could reach through there, sometimes it is the feeling like a cloud or something like that, so it is a constantly changing process.

[21:22]

And that is nothing stable, but it's a process that continuously is moving, and sometimes I feel like I could reach through it, or it feels like a cloud, but in any case, it's continuously changing and moving. Yeah, but we also discover in Sashin that our legs can hurt a lot, and yet our mind can be completely calm. And the attitudes in the mind can affect how the legs feel or how the body feels. So here we have a clear experience of the mind being separate from the body. Because the body can feel terrible, the mind can be completely caught. So we have to add those two together. So we can also ask, what mind are we discovering in Sashin?

[22:25]

Now, I really apologize to those of you who aren't sitters, because I don't want to limit our discussion to those who practice meditation. And Buddhism is certainly not limited to those who practice meditation. But much or perhaps, we probably have to say, all of the teachings of Buddhism arise from the experiences of meditation. But a large part, or maybe we should even say all the teachings of Buddhism rise from the experience of meditation. Okay, someone else? Yes, Daniel. Yes, first of all, this morning when you started, I saw that you were speaking to everyone. But it felt as if you were talking just with me.

[23:55]

I was. I did too. Anyway, it started with the license and that was also my interest to learn. You started out by talking about felt sense and that is also my interest. how I can come from something I feel to something concrete that I can describe without losing too much of that, but somehow turn it into something practical. Okay, I will also keep that in mind, or somewhere. Yes? By the way, thank you so much, the two of you, for being our hosts.

[25:04]

Many thanks to both of you for being our guests. Many thanks to all of you for coming out and coming back. And I thank all of you who asked questions, because what I actually wanted to ask has already been done. And thanks a lot to you also for coming again and to everybody for coming. Yeah, it's good. Thanks a lot to everybody who has already asked questions, because what I would like to ask has already appeared in the questions that we have. And I want... By the way, I prefer people to speak Deutsch first and then hear the English because I feel something when the person is speaking Deutsch. Okay. Yes, I was lucky enough to hear Rashi in Rastenberg for five days. And then there is also the topic of meditation and Buddhism and psychotherapy.

[26:12]

I was fortunate enough to also hear you in Rastenberg and that was also about the topic Buddhism and psychology and psychotherapy. That was something really simple that I took with me and tried to integrate that into my psychological practice and also into my life, which was that you said, the past shapes the present. Exactly. And that was also an association with what you said about the body, that I notice that it only works when this past is embodied, so to speak, into a kind of living memory and then develop further. And I have almost a role as a picture, or it's as if you knead it through or roll it through.

[27:17]

And that also relates to the questions that have been asked about the body. And I have almost... Because I feel like the past in the body becomes somehow alive. The past comes alive in the body? and embodies itself in the body, and I have a feeling almost like a roll that keeps going somehow, or kneading through or something, something that's really moved through in a very juicy way, like dough, you know. Yeah. Not like an old washing machine with two rollers and you're being squeezed through. Yes, I would like to hear more about it, because even if you do it very intensively with yourself or also with clients, there is often still a feeling of illness or injury where it becomes very difficult, which is very harsh.

[28:33]

And maybe there are still further recommendations or Buddhist ways that can be followed. Okay. And then my question that relates to that is, even when you practice that also in psychotherapy quite thoroughly, then often still there is a remaining feeling of injury or being hurt, and that stays there. And then the question is, if there are any advices or any practices from Buddhism, how to continue at that point? Okay, I'll keep it in mind. So would you say that you're saying not only does the past shape the present, but the past circulates in the body? And I would say that perhaps the body is circulating the past because the body is always trying to simultaneously get free of the past.

[29:47]

Okay, good, thanks. Yes? I'm also still dealing with Rastenberg and what has stayed with me since then. And that's darkness. And the work with that, and it's also like it works within me in darkness, that's what I notice. And I can't even really say much about that but just that I enjoy that and really appreciate it and that also it flows into my work in a kind of way that I can't really fathom.

[31:04]

So I just wanted to add that into the soup that we are cooking here. Good. Good. All right. Yes. Yes. I would also like to contribute. I would like to get something from you about that. Last week my father died. That was a process of the last three months, where I had the feeling that besides my everyday life I had slept differently. I was somewhere else. I had this feeling that everyone involved communicated with each other. I would like to contribute something. I would like to hear from you something about last week my father died. And that was a process that has already been going on for, let's say, three months.

[32:16]

And throughout that time I've realized that or noticed that I've been somehow different in the world and I noticed that next to my everyday life I had a different sleep pattern, I slept differently. And also that people who were in relationship with that process, that we communicated all the time. And there was something that I somehow felt in advance already that that was going to come. And I'd like to hear something about that. Well, of course, as it should be, when our human space is so transformed, we live in it differently.

[33:28]

And at least, first of all, you're doing what you're doing. You're noticing it. Excuse me for sounding a little corny, but your human space is talking to you. And you're listening. Yeah, that's first of all. So that's all I'll say right now anyway. Anyone else? Someone else? Oh, you were going to say something. Yeah. I am happy to learn how to convey to my clients that this dharmic moment, this life from moment to moment and to be present in this moment, is the door to change.

[34:43]

I would like to hear something about how the dharmic practice, the living from moment to moment, that that can be a gate for change. How can we teach that or convey that to clients? Yeah, and that relates also to whether your attitude is healing or acceptance or an interrelationship to healing and acceptance. Now I will say again, I'll keep that in mind, but at some point some of you may have to remind me. Because you're also my mind. Okay, someone else. Yeah. That was exactly my question, too.

[35:54]

And I would like to hear more about how I can live for myself and my clients at that moment or how I can pre-live, because then I got the memory of clients with whom I have been working for a long time and how difficult it is to be able to see that every moment is unique again. that was exactly my question and I would also like to hear more about how I can enact that for myself and for clients and the example that came up for me was also how particularly with clients that I've been working with for a longer time how difficult it then is to relate to have each moment be fresh or new again yeah Okay? I always have a problem

[36:59]

The term consciousness, because obviously this term is used very differently by brain researchers, biologists, philosophers, and even in Buddhism, and there is a very I have one addition I am always confused or always have a problem with the term consciousness because it's used in such different ways by neurologists and psychologists and then also in Buddhism again and to somehow clear that up that would be really helpful for me you're optimistic Yes, I've thought a lot about it. And with a few exceptions, almost all of the neurobiological studies I've read, in an amateurish way, use the word consciousness.

[38:12]

Yes, so it definitely has to be, I think if the neurobiological research is going to be fruitful, consciousness has to have a considerable more particularity in its definition. And I saw that the topic of our meeting is consciousness, the process of consciousness in psychotherapy or something like that, right? I didn't know until this morning. Did I choose that? Did you choose it? Well, it's obvious. It would work. But again, consciousness is one of the things I've defined and worked with so often, like the body, that I don't want to bore you with it again.

[39:35]

But we'll see if I can speak about it in a way that fits in with what we're doing. But consciousness is just like the topic of the body, just a field that I have already talked about so much and thought about that I somehow have the feeling that I don't want to bore you with it anymore. But yes, I'll see if it fits in here in a way that I can talk about it again. Okay. Someone else? Yes. I'm still stuck with the sentence that you said 20 minutes ago where you said we need a strong self without identifying with it as the whole of us. I sometimes have a sense of a wider hole or a bigger hole, but what is this hole?

[40:45]

It certainly is not an entity. But it's also not just a feeling, is it? You're asking the question, what is this wider whole? From consciousness. And consciousness can't grasp this wider whole because that's not the job of consciousness. But you can teach consciousness not to interfere with this wider whole And then you can let this wider hole, let's call it that for now, give it some name, function. And we can even say, as she said, function in the darkness. Or function outside of consciousness and outside of consciousness trying to grasp it or control it.

[42:03]

So we could say that all of Buddhism virtually is about how to do this. How can I let something function outside of consciousness? You're doing it all the time. I mean, you are doing it all the time, I promise you. But let's notice the promise. So good, I'll come back to this. Yes. Throughout the last days I've been concerned with the topic time and space. In the beginning you talked about human space.

[43:17]

that we continue, for example in the exhibition work, not only to feel the space, but also to have terms and words in the space and to be able to look at the space differently. And one aspect of that thinking was that we're used here in the West to think in sentences and linear processes. And my idea was that we could get farther in constellation work. I'm doing constellation work. If we could... I need that again. If we could do something. We could get further if we could somehow learn how to feel space through the body and then also how to think space. And I'd like to hear what Buddhism has to say about feeling and then thinking space. Yeah.

[44:54]

Thanks. Danke. This is good. Das ist gut. You were at Rastenberg too. Du warst auch in Rastenberg. You came a long ways. Ja, bist du aber weit gefahren. Thank you. Danke. Okay, let me... I think we should have lunch soon. But before we go, let me speak about the experience of aliveness itself. Now, I think that gives us a starting point. Okay. When you're first born, you're alive.

[45:59]

The infant's experience is of being alive. And having been with people during the time before they died, I find many people, most people are really usually quite ready to die. And maybe surprisingly willing to die. A lot of us spend a great deal of our life being afraid of dying, but when the time comes, we actually do it pretty well. You'll all get your chance.

[47:02]

I'm going to be an exception. Okay. But even within the willingness to die, there's still... comes forth a treasuring of just being alive for a little bit longer. Aliveness itself. Just to hear something. Yeah, just to see somebody in front of you or see the light in the room. Now, much of meditation practice is about recapturing this aliveness. And it's one of the things that, you know, surprisingly, we're all alive, but to really notice how fully we're alive, like a wild animal maybe, meditation does help.

[48:24]

Sometimes, again, the rather extreme form of meditation, Sashin, helps. Your conceptual frameworks sort of collapse or are suspended. Your conceptual frameworks designed to help you change situations to your benefit. And they're sometimes... kind of aren't there when you need them. And you're just thrown back on aliveness itself. You've got nothing else. And if you can actually just settle into that aliveness, actually much of the difficulty disappears. Because you're going to be alive as long as you're alive.

[49:45]

Sorry, that's a very simple thing to say. But you'll be alive as long as you're alive, so there's nothing to worry about. There's no point in worrying about what it's like after you're alive. Again, you're going to be alive as long as you're alive. And if you really feel that, it almost doesn't matter what you do, because whatever you do, driving in a car, waiting in a dentist's office, you're alive. I feel rather simple-minded saying this. But it's actually something close to enlightening. It doesn't mean while you're sitting in the dentist office or standing in line in the grocery store You don't have more important things to do or at least different things to do.

[51:06]

Yeah, but the things you do have to do don't have to be 90% of your consciousness. 90% of your awareness or consciousness can be the simple pleasure of being alive. And the things you have to do can be put on a little mental shelf until you can be alive doing those things. And one way for a meditator to practice this is when you sit Sit simply in the satisfaction of sitting itself.

[52:17]

Yeah, like you're in a warm bath or sunbathing. And I think all of us notice who sit. That, you know, you may, you know, period may seem rather long, you know, it'd be good if it ended. But you're going to, you know, everybody's sitting near you and you're not going to move before the bell rings, probably. Or you've decided to sit for 30 minutes or 40 minutes. But then when the 30 or 40 minutes are up, But you were hoping would come sooner. You suddenly don't want to move. It's just nice to sit there.

[53:19]

You can kind of get to know that feeling. And find that feeling throughout the period of Zazen. And strangely enough, the word satisfaction in English, the etymology, is to become whole, to become complete. And when you sit, there's a kind of implicit movement toward feeling more complete. Or more settled or more at ease. And in that mind you can feel vividly when you don't feel at ease.

[54:22]

Und in diesem Geist kannst du ganz lebhaft fühlen, wenn du dich nicht wohlfühlst. You can notice that you can't really relax. Dann kannst du bemerken, dass du dich nicht wirklich entspannen kannst. Yeah, that's wonderful. Actually, it's wonderful to notice that we can't really relax. Es ist eigentlich wunderbar zu bemerken, dass wir uns nicht wirklich entspannen können. But noticing that gives us a... possibility of the fine tuning that lets us relax a little more, lets our body feel a little differently. And the more we feel an inner ease, The more complete we feel like we don't need anything, and aliveness itself becomes vivid.

[55:39]

And this vivid aliveness itself Once you taste it and have a bodily feel for it, it can begin to be part of your life anytime, any part of your life. It can be called forth and noticed or allowed to surface. So this finding yourself located in aliveness itself, even though English requires me to say aliveness itself, itself, This aliveness itself is wider and deeper than our experience of self.

[56:48]

Self arises in this aliveness, but if it takes over, aliveness collapses. Yeah, so I'd just like to suggest that this is a starting point in simply being alive. To have the intelligence or wisdom to actually start locating your sense of continuity in aliveness. Yeah, let's not say your sense of identity in aliveness.

[57:58]

Because stating it that way immediately causes problems. So let's say establish your sense of continuity in aliveness. The way we might establish our sense of continuity in bringing attention to the breath Here I'm suggesting we establish a sense of continuity in aliveness itself. Until it becomes more and more the predominance of our consciousness largest part of our moment-by-moment experience. It'll make you healthier, too. And these are promises.

[58:59]

Okay, let's have lunch.

[59:01]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_76.88