Perhaps the most useful thing about what we just spoke about is that such distinctions can be made relevant to and informed by our experience. And the distinctions allow you to think about things rooted in experience, in a way that's possible, not possible, without the distinction. Yeah. So... So again, in whatever we do in our life, the distinctions we make and commit ourselves to, or distinctions we make and find useful,

[01:11]

can help us actually, I think, feel and think more productively about what we're doing. Whatever it is, and it's not usually Buddhism. No. I would like to ask, was what I said earlier before the break useful to any of you or at least interesting? Okay, so... I hope I don't have to wait so long for you to speak. So I don't have to wait for Horst, I can say Horst. Yes. It was... Useful, helpful and interesting.

[02:38]

And one thing I'm connecting with what you said is that I've been observing for some time a new way of thinking. And in that way of thinking, it does feel like there's a whole lot of information folded into each other. And it feels like the source of such knowing that produces this kind of thinking is also a different way of being in the world. It has to do with being in resonance or accord with the complexity of the situation.

[04:00]

And then I have the feeling that somehow a kind of mental image can explain this complexity of the situation. And then I have a feeling for how a certain mental image can reflect this kind of complexity. And what you said really helped me understand that better. And a question I have in relationship to that. ist, dass ich in diesen Erfahrungen auch bemerke, dass die sehr anfällig für Konstruktionen sind. That I'm noticing how in these kinds of experiences there is a certain vulnerability, they're vulnerable to constructions.

[05:01]

Oder in anderen Worten, dass ich das Gefühl habe, ich kann leicht, wenn ich da ein Konzept dazu tue, oder irgendwie If I take a concept or I'm entering this with a certain intention, then I to verfelge this, then I'm getting it wrong and also making it wrong. Well, then you've learned something. Yes. Well, I don't understand any of this. I don't believe it, but it's okay.

[06:02]

I can see that you... Anyway, let's not talk about it. Go ahead. when something occurs or happens when I'm in a mind of observation or a feeling feeling with something And particularly when that's communicated with others. And then a conversation occurs. Yes. then it happens that there is so many, I'm aware of so many levels of a certain thing.

[07:10]

When this is getting to so, when there's so much of that, Then I try to put it in order or get some structure for it. And then there's a tendency to control it. Maybe that's similar to what Nicole is saying. And what you... said introduces the idea for me that this is not necessary. This control you mean, right? Yeah. Because I can trust that there is so much... of this folding together or being folded together, that what is relevant, that I can have this trust that what is relevant may flower all by itself.

[08:27]

And then maybe I don't have to know how it all fits together. Yes. And it reminds me of a biologist who told us something about... I don't know the English word, but it's like... Mushrooms and how they... Roots of mushrooms. Roots of mushrooms and how they... A real mushroom that kind of, I think, also spreads underneath. Underneath, yeah. So the biologist said that without these webs, Forests wouldn't exist and they're completely invisible.

[09:36]

That's great. There wouldn't be any trees without this web of mushrooms. And the mushrooms that we actually see are just like little flowers of this vast web. Yeah. Yeah, maybe we're just little mushrooms. Every now and then we break half a piece. Eat me. Yes. what you said or what you explained reminded me of something that actually occurred last night Because I had a very scary dream.

[10:41]

I'm not telling you the dream because that's not the point. But the point was that I had the urge to scream. Still in the dream. So I screamed. And at that moment I knew that I actually screamed. And for me it was a kind of very releasing experience because most or I never experienced that I could actually scream in my dream. Because it was always this experience. You can't scream. You want to run and you can't run. What we said reminded me, because somehow I knew that I screamed a key loud.

[11:50]

And I wasn't hearing it. And Hannah confirmed it in the morning. Did you get worried? Not really. I think that's what I grasped from what you... Yeah, there's that kind of territory. But still there's an open question for me. What has this all to do with rituals? Oh, I said rituals is tomorrow. Perhaps it will have something to do, but mainly I said to you that it was a good idea and tomorrow I'll speak about it.

[12:55]

That's what I wanted to say anyway. But thanks for the good question. I've had this somewhat similar experience sometime. Am I going to finish? No, it's fine. Everyone understood. I had this somewhat similar experience sometime of wondering, who the hell is snoring like that? Oh, that's a terrible noise. No, I think... I think it's me. Okay, yes. The first one was that I was always thinking about my friends far away, like I don't know the English equivalent, this web between mushrooms. My friends in America and England and I don't know where, we speak the same language. We're connected by a web which was as hidden as a detail was one.

[13:59]

And two was... I have a friend who lives far away and you are only in contact with letters or e-mails or something and you like to do that very, very much. And I named it like this, it's like a museum in the middle of the woods and we speak the same language. It goes through this museum line in the different countries where they sit I prefer German first. Many years ago, when I was in Christiana, George's wife's seminars, I had a very short and very terrible dream. Just because nobody had a dream to discuss in that certain session, I said, well, I had something which is nearly nothing.

[14:59]

It was only a very short dream. And I told her, I had a very short dream, and I thought it wasn't very important. But I told her, I saw the face of Gogo, the Medusa, you know, with wide open mouth, blue lips, goggle eyes and snake hair, and I knew it was me. And I was so frightened that I couldn't sleep from three in the morning till we all got together. And she said, but that's quite important, you want it aufgestellt. So I said, yes. So she said, what do you think it is? What does it signify? What do you think it is? What does it mean? This... I say panic and I know panic in my life when everything is no longer possible.

[16:10]

When I am too late and the traffic does not work and I reach an appointment, I am not able to fix it, I get in such a panic that I destroy everything. When I come to this stage of panic, because I'm late and traffic doesn't work out and I can't be in time for collecting somebody at the airport or whatever, that's an important artist, and I'm late, I get so panicking that I make accidents, hurt myself, fall down, bleed and all kinds of things, and this panic is against myself. So this is what I saw in this face. And she said, okay, put it out. put panic there. So I chose one of them and put it, not opposite me, but a little to the left because it frightened me. So I had her on the left. It was all written. And then she said, what do you think is the contribute to that? So I said, So I said, So I said, poetry and music.

[17:12]

So she said, pick one of them and put them, put them. So I put this one opposite me. And I was, we had to get posted, comforted that this being is in front of me and not... So then she said, now let it ripen. So here I stood and had this pen in a firm way and tried to look into her face. She said, nenn es das Schöne. Freundschaft, Liebe, Lyrik und Musik. And nothing, and feel nothing is my mistake. Feel. Now take panic and put it behind you. and call it caution.

[18:17]

Is that the word? Okay. And she did. And she left empty in front of me. And it was all correct. I cried. I was released. And ever since, I'm not too late for my dates. And it works out, and I don't get into panic. I don't remember whether I got into panic after that. I think it was all before. And it was amazing. It was such a short period. It was, I think, a minute or less. And I would never have uttered it. It was folded together. Yes, exactly. I would not have uttered it if anybody had said, I have a dream. So what a coincidence, lucky. How good Christiane was. That's great. A good example of ritual. Okay. I experienced the kind of decision-making that you talked about.

[19:20]

I experienced the kind of thinking that you talked about. The kind of decision-making that you talk about. Kind of a physical kind of experience. And I connect it to a kind of zen mind that I call non-rasping. Und die sind in Verbindung mit einem Sasengeist, den ich nichtgreifend nenne. Und ich erfahre das als eine unmittelbare Erfahrung, in der es keine zeitlichen Koordinaten gibt. And the only way to experience that is through non-grabbing the self.

[20:34]

And the first time I experienced that, I experienced that extremely serious. And now I experience it as extremely satisfying. But it's like a physical decision that you make. Okay, thanks. Anyone else have something you'd like to say? Yeah. What you said before the break, that territory emerged in myself that is in an early stage of incubation.

[21:41]

And it's about a holding and letting be simultaneous of of potentials, but there is something before that. You have to give me short sections or else it's very hard to get it all remembered. ... Letting be simultaneous of what really happens of appearance and those other possibilities, those potentials.

[23:05]

And when I find a way to hold this sort of side by side, then for me that also feels a little bit crazy. And simultaneous with that is a great relief. And a freedom And I have the feeling that this has to do with this territory that you described before the break, decisions from this

[24:35]

And I think that has to do with what you said before the break to make decisions out of this space of alaya-vijjana. From this connection, that one can make decisions from this space that are more informed than conscious decisions. Well, I mean, whenever you do something that's unfamiliar, it's shaky. And it takes time to find our inner footing. I think, I mean, consciousness orders our world. And consciousness is also how we share our world. So this is the territory we're educated in, familiar with, constantly reinforced in.

[25:56]

And So as soon as you start feeling the world instead of thinking the world, as a primary mode of knowing, you're actually activating and actualizing ways of thinking and ways of being in the world. That you have to get used to.

[26:57]

It takes a while to get used to. And surprisingly, you find you share the world with others more fully then than you do through consciousness. If I speak to your consciousness, I have one kind of feeling. If I speak to let's just say, to your feeling, people will often come up to me and say, you spoke just about what I wanted you to speak about.

[28:07]

But when I give a talk like this, when I talk like I did before the seminar, before the break. I know not many people are going to come up to me and say, oh, you said just what I was thinking about. But I hope I'm talking to what you will be thinking about. Someone else? Yes? An observation came to mind that I made. in myself when it's about making a decision about something or I want to make a decision.

[29:23]

I've noticed that there are Something like a number of grooves that are dealing with this decision-making and they... Tracks, yeah. Okay, tracks. And they have different... They work in different times or space. Yeah. Yeah. And the level of consciousness is very good at dealing with all these different aspects of advantages and disadvantages and so forth. And while I'm dealing with this conscious content, I am also noticing that there are other things

[30:34]

impulses in the body leading to a certain kind of movement or images. That shows me that decision is already made while consciousness is still working on it real intensely. That's true, absolutely. And so now I don't do it occasionally and not very often. Yeah. Yes.

[31:54]

The way you described the laya vijnana and this principle of folding together. There's infinite freedom, it seems, of the surfacing of appearance. Yeah. In real life there's only a limited number of things that appear. And they seem to be dependent on this folding. Where has that happened? Or what folds? Folding bowls. Like rain rains. And this is independent of appearances or the contents of a laya?

[33:04]

What is independent? How the folding happens and reappears. Well, this is first just an idea, right? It's an idea that approximates some experience. So I think the best thing we can say is that you can be in a state of mind which create the conditions where the folding occurs. So the state of mind does the folding, or the

[34:05]

Only in that state of mind can the folding occur. I'm just making this up. Like only in water can a boat float. I can decide to put the boat in the water but I can't make it float. So it's that kind of distinction. And you have a participation in it, like initiation or editing. But once the boat's in the water, you can use the floating. Okay.

[35:35]

The best I can do right now. Yes. There was this story from last week with the baby in the 30th week. Regina presented this story of the last weekend about the baby in the 30th week of pregnancy. Yes. And I wonder if she managed to have herself, the mother and the child, to have all the three in a state of mind where this new possibility of the turning of the baby

[36:39]

If this was a possibility of a new folding? What do you mean by a new folding? So the... The reality that the child is born as most children are born in an easy way. No, the new folding is that the reality of the child being born like most children in this easy way. The old folding would be the breech position. I mean, I... I...

[37:55]

I have to think about what you mean in the way you're applying the word folding to this. I would just say, going back to Regina's story about the baby, we often find ourselves in situations. I mean, if you're able to notice, I mean, I think we all find ourselves in very subtle situations very often, although not everyone notices there. Very subtle situations, I'm defining as situations which are too complex for consciousness. In those situations, you can't control.

[39:02]

But you can approach the situation. And what I find remarkable is that in those situations intention has a big influence Consciousness can't function, but attention has a big influence on the approach. And intention is powerful, most powerful and most likely to be effective. When, as Regina said, you don't care about the outcome. Now, I don't know, I'd like to have a footnote about that somehow.

[40:21]

I mean, I'm, like Ravi said, a goal-free mind. It's also effective when your intention is... I don't know. Your intent can be so strong that the more strong your intent is, the better, in a way. But rather, the more clear and unconflicted your intent is.

[41:26]

And you may really, because sometimes it could be a life and death situation, and you really don't want the negative situation to happen. But if your entire energy is on the intent and not on the result, it's the same as being in a goal-free situation. Okay. By the way, you know, many times you hear some, you know, some scientists say it's all in the details. Or business people will tell you that too. It's all in the details. Well, to me that means it's something like what I was talking about before the break.

[42:27]

When you really see the details, and allow the details to direct you, it's a lot like what I was talking about. I was kind of creating some of the details. And I see when I see people who are successful, it's often they're capable of bringing attention to the detail. And often the detail is independent of theories about them and stuff like that. So the cook is waiting for us.

[43:35]

And the baker is not waiting for us. Let me make it simple.

[45:32]

As Suzuki Roshi said, reality cannot be caught by thinking or feeling. Moment after moment, just to watch the breath, Just to watch the posture is true nature. There's no secret beyond this. But what happens When you incubate attention to the breath, the activity of the breath. And you incubate attention in the firmness of the spine.

[46:38]

the complexity of a lived life in awareness unfolds.

[46:59]

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