So, as I said, I would like some help on this project. Yes. Worst. Mir passiert in diesen Seminaren immer wieder, dass sich mein Geist bestimmter Worte oder Begriffe bemächtigt. It happens to me frequently in this seminar that my mind somehow is occupying certain words and concepts. And then certain thoughts are coming up which I cannot completely control and actually probably don't want to control.

[01:02]

And the first what I wrote down on my paper was the consciousness is a tapestry of concept. When immediately an image arose or came up that there are many, many, many concepts. In this tapestry. In this tapestry? No, in general. In general, yes. And then came the uncertainty and the fear. And immediately there came this anxiety and also this insecurity.

[02:31]

What of all these concepts is part of my tapestry? The question, do I have the right tapestry? And the question, do you have the right to disagree? I mean, from here it looks okay. That was not so funny. That was not so funny. Yeah, I understand what you're talking about. This feeling was increased or became stronger by the second point, this starting point. And there were two things.

[03:45]

The first thought was, and what does consciousness pick out from the starting point, pick out from these concepts? And the second point was, consciousness is a creation of the starting point. And the second thing was consciousness is a creation of the starting point. And with that I was somehow totally uncertain, because for me consciousness was something, such a constant, And this led to a complete insecurity because consciousness in my view or in my experience was rather constant, something which remains constant but was created and developed in my lifetime.

[05:00]

And therefore there is really a big or a total insecurity, which when I move towards this insecurity and let myself into it makes me quite anxious and is quite frightening. Und dann kommen so meine Kontrollinstanzen, die sagen, es wird schon passen. And then my kind of controlling instance, habit of controlling, starts to come into that and work and says, well, it will fit. Und das beruhigt mich dann ein wenig.

[06:03]

And that calms me down a little bit. And that makes me feel calm a bit. A bit. Und überbleibt so eben diese Unsicherheit und dieser Wunsch, And what remains is this insecurity and also this desire, this wish to follow this thought in future. And to follow and to examine this process of this momentary creation of consciousness more aware in future.

[07:08]

Yeah, okay. Well, of course, You know, I don't like making you feel anxious. On the other hand, I mean, I don't think it's just me, but, you know, my part in it, I'm sorry. But I also think it's unavoidable. And in fact, if there isn't some anxiety, you're not understanding. And as I said earlier, this attitude of a starting point being always accepting.

[08:12]

You're at the beginning of the bridge. And the bridge at this point is anxiety. So instead of trying to control or do something about the anxiety, as much as possible, you just try to make that your starting point. Stay in the anxiety. It's quite interesting if you can do it. Yeah, okay, someone else? Thank you very much. I do have a question.

[09:24]

I think these conceptualizations, momentary conceptualizations are important because without such conceptualizations I wouldn't be able to come from Vienna to Rastenberg. In traditional teaching, this conceptualization of reality has a kind of negative connotation. In the same way as we in psychotherapy call the positive function of me or of I. So Yes, and if I would be in the

[10:42]

non-conceptual role I couldn't function if it would be impossible or if it wouldn't be the case that we alternate between these two stages or this role. So what's the point? Is it the point that we remain on this margin, on this boulder? Hmm. Well, everything you say is correct. From my point of view. Except that I wouldn't say there's a negative attitude toward conceptual consciousness only if that's the only way you identify yourself.

[12:08]

It's a misreading of the teaching. I'd like to say something about this dukkha attachment. Yes. It's often taken away completely. I think, what's the point of that? So I just want to say a word. This tuka, this attachment, it's very often it's only seen as negative. And I think to myself, what is this all about? Not in the sense of what is all about. It doesn't make sense. Well, you know, I mean, I don't see it that way. I mean, dukkha or suffering or attachment is...

[13:16]

only negative in certain ways. I mean it's also the way we learn and experience things and so forth. To respond accurately, I have to really look at whether it's early Buddhism or when it's stated that way. But I think it's a misreading of commentators who put it that way. And it's obvious to anybody who's actually living this teaching, is that you can't function without conceptual consciousness.

[14:36]

You can't get from here from Vienna to here. To keep it simple, it's... Conceptual consciousness isn't a problem, it's how we live. And if only a problem again, when we identify ourselves through that conceptual consciousness, That's the only way we identify ourselves. Or we imagine there's only one way the world can be conceptualized. And a major shift is, one of the major shifts is when you see the self.

[15:40]

I mean, you can't practice if you don't have a strong self. But the shift is when you see self in the context of self. of how you function. And when you see self itself as a function. Yeah, but we still have this question in what I James Agee's... No one's ever going to tell me who I am. Yeah, that question has tremendous power. Yeah, but... From a Buddhist point of view, it's the wrong question.

[16:50]

But from a Buddhist point of view, it's the wrong question. First of all, it ought to be what I am. But first of all, it wouldn't be who I am, but what I am. Okay, someone else. I haven't forgotten. I haven't forgotten. Christa? I don't know. In the time, so much accumulated of what I want to say that I have to transgress a certain threshold to get rid of all that. Okay. Okay. The first question is whether the problem has been solved or whether the process of suffering can be removed or whether it can be improved.

[17:56]

So the initial or the first question, which was also in the last weekend, is that how you can somehow... Okay. Yeah. Not get rid of, be free of. And... So when I take something from a seminar like this, or from a seminar, then it has something to do with space. And it's a room, a space where this kind of deconstruction can happen.

[19:19]

And I realize or I notice that somehow I am like pushed in in such a space. You feel pushed in? Yeah. Confined? Oh, pushed into it. Yeah, that kind, okay. When I sit face to face with a client, for instance, I have the feeling I took her on boat somehow, and I have no idea. I wonder, and I'm not sure. Took her on board? On board, yeah, on the boat. Whether this boat will be stable.

[20:30]

A lake. Yeah. It will last. Yeah, I understand, yeah. It was really difficult. And this is also some kind of scary feeling sometimes. And I sometimes, concerning my own person, I sometimes feel anxiety. And when Sabine mentioned her anxiety or something about anxiety, this also touched me. And the emotion followed after that. And I would say that this experience of space somehow corresponds with a learning process.

[21:44]

The discontinuity of space corresponds with you. So this space corresponds with a discontinuant learning experience. Yeah, to experience a discontinuity which is learning somehow. It is as if making all the steps at once without knowing how you arrived. Yeah, I understand. And the emotion is some kind of a sort of a... Salvation? In philosophical terms,

[22:52]

salvation and enlightenment fall into the same category. Only to make it easier. It's like a ray of power out of the atmosphere. So the air turns into water. So the air turns into water. And then I had this idea that emotion can be also a kind of starting point.

[24:22]

And somehow the territory of this and movement of this emotion is between an area where something is there and on the other side it's not there. It also takes us to a start to a beginning because it somehow avoids or averts our intention. No, no, in the sense of that it doesn't allow. No, more than it refuses or it won't accept. It won't accept and also doesn't allow to escape.

[25:44]

It waits. It's outside our intention. Okay. Yes, and this emotion is also something that draws us into a process. And that is now again on the side of the actually continuous process. Ah, and that's fantastic, yes. And this emotional starts a kind of process, and that leads us somehow again, leads us to a learning process which is more continuous. And it produces stories, narratives, myths, and there's a lot going on there.

[26:48]

And then I have also the feeling that these two processes go together, finally. And this, that there is a kind of touching point of these processes. Okay, and this is literally a touching point. And I posed myself the question, what actually is it that touches us? Yeah, please. It's clearly at least a beginning.

[28:04]

Since I can't hear you in German, I can't feel into all the associations or more of the associations and concepts behind what you're saying. But to the extent that I understand it through language, Eric. And through knowing your practice. What you describe is exactly what I hope happens when I do a seminar. Yeah. Okay, someone else. Yes. Only an addition, a conclusion to that, what I learned this weekend.

[29:21]

Yeah, there is a scientist who is studying cells, and his name is Bruce Lipton. Yeah. She found out the following. And that has something to do with concept and the starting or the beginning of concepts. Between zero and two years of life, we are most of the time, or mostly, we are in what is called a theta, a theta vibration of the brain, which is quite low vibration. And from 2 to 6 we are in the delta oscillation.

[30:31]

The first is between 4 and 0 Hz, the other is between 8 and 4 Hz. So from then on, until the sixth year of life, we are in what's called delta vibration, and there is a difference in the frequency between these two vibrations, or waves. And this condition is called the condition of supra-learning. And all the concepts of parents are completely absorbed by the child. And that's our life.

[31:32]

And this can only be erased if we return in this super-consciousness state. And that's our hypnosis. So, almost no chance to clean that stuff up, to clean all that stuff. Well, I'd like to see, is it spelled like T, Lipton? Lipton, L-I-F-T-O-N. Is it Lipton, L-I-P-T-O-N? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the T. Yeah, yeah. Not Lipton, it's Lipton. Lipton, Lipton. Well, I'll try to look up. Ich werde mir das anschauen, diese Forschung. And what language does he write in?

[32:33]

English. English. That makes some sense. There is no other language left you can write in. Really? Yes. Why do you inform each other so much about psychotherapy? Because in meditation it also changes. So why do practice and psychotherapy inform each other so much and so culturally? That's because in meditation you come in these kind of stages or these kind of ways. Probably true. That's Tim for a chance. I'd have to read exactly what he means, but it does seem, I don't like... you know, simple configurations about right brain, left brain, things like that. But from that point of view, does the right brain is dominant up to about... 18 months old.

[33:49]

And after that, particularly in our culture, the left brain is dominant. And what I've read and seen the studies of, it's roughly from the third term of pregnancy through about nearly two years old. And the extent that right brain, left brain is a useful distinction. I think we can I think we can say it's very clear that meditation makes the right brain down. In the experience of meditation.

[34:50]

And mature practice, the right brain is always dominant. But the left brain is still there. Okay, thank you. Vielen Dank. Thanks for bringing this person's research up. Vielen Dank, dass du diesen Forscher hier eingebracht hast. Someone else. Jemand anders. Yes, Mr. Mikkel. Unoccupied with the question. Du sprichst so selbstverständlich von der Unterscheidung konzeptionelles Bewusstsein und nicht konzeptionelles. You are take it for granted so much when you talk about conceptual consciousness and non-conceptual consciousness.

[36:02]

I mean, I assume that that's the case. So naturally, it's for taking for granted as if it would be the case. And you're questioning that. I hope you are. It makes it more fun. No, no, I'm not a dwarf. Oh, shucks. Okay, go ahead. It's quite easy to distinguish between something is there and something is absent, or something is not there. But what is the difference? What is the difference? But what is actually the distinction? What is really out there on the other side? I mean, what is non-conceptual consciousness? Or different question, how can we realize that? How can we which kind of mind or what mind can experience that or can realize that and know that.

[37:22]

Exactly. What was your question, Krista? What is that emotion or how did you put it? What was the question, Krista? What is the emotion? What is touching? What touches us? Okay. No, I think I just, I want to stay with that because I think that's an extraordinarily important question. What touches us? Why do some things touch us and some things not? Ja, ich möchte das eigentlich für mich stehen lassen, weil das so eine außerordentlich wichtige Frage ist, was berührt uns? Warum berührt uns etwas und etwas anderes berührt uns nicht? And of course, the question that Michael, I never can say it quite right, is that right? Sort of right? No. His brother.

[38:24]

Aber die Frage, die Michael aufgebracht hat, It sounds like that's what I'm saying. Anyway, yeah, how do we, well, first of all, Is non-conceptual consciousness the same as what I mean by awareness? And this is a question I ask myself. Because you can have a content-less consciousness, but is that then what I mean by awareness? And for years I've been making a distinction as most of you know between awareness and consciousness. Yeah, so I won't try to discuss that, but certainly practice is about how you answer your question.

[39:29]

And I tried to answer that question in some detail in the last seminar. repeat myself. I don't know. I just don't enjoy it. Unless I have no choice. And the reason I don't want to repeat myself is it's really so much more fruitful to see if we can find a new texture in which to come to this maybe slightly different angle. And one thing that's informing what I

[40:44]

said last night and today, is trying to avoid what I said in the last seminar. Unless I find it's necessary to not avoid. But let me just say that the one way I'd put a response to what you said, but not a response to how do we practice it, but a response to how do we conceive of it. Consciousness is structured through its content. Awareness is structured through its field.

[42:08]

And a field awareness, knowing, is different than a content-defined knowing. So we can say much of practice is a shift between Content and feel. And then the technology or craft of the practice is how do you make the shift from feel to content. Yes. Is V the same as phenomena?

[43:09]

No. Well, I mean, depends what you mean by phenomena. Phenomena means technically in English at least, Phenomenon. Phenomenon means phenomenon understood through the mind. It's become to mean this is phenomena, this is the phenomenal world. but the word phenomenon means the perception of the object. No. Okay, yeah. I mean, this is quite a... Fuzzy and difficult to understand. This is what? Fuzzy. [...]

[44:10]

Fuzzy. Fuzzy. Fuzzy. Because could you lend me this bell? Yes. I mean, this bell is a concept, but it's also a field. And it's also, it's a concept, it's a field. I mean, it's also a field. If I experienced the bell in all the other forms, it could also be in all its potentiality, which is apart from that it's a bell. I mean, as a Westerner, you don't have the concept that this is a bell at all, because a bell has to be like this, and a bell has to move like this, and there has to be something in there. So this is not a bell.

[45:10]

I mean, this is a cup. I don't know what it is. Yeah, okay. So it is a bell. It is not a bell. It's a concept. And it's a feed. So, yeah. It's all at once. No. I mean, I'm disagreeing with you because it's more interesting. Okay. But you made a third point. You said concept, you said feel, They're not content-less? Content. Yeah, that's also such a problem because, I mean, you say something like there is something, a consciousness without, is there a consciousness without content? And first you say there is, consciousness is structured by content. So if there is no content, then there is no consciousness. That's the question I brought up, yes. And what is it?

[46:11]

Is it, yeah. Yeah. So these are fuzzy terms. I wish they were more fuzzy. Really? They're fuzzy enough. Okay. I'm thinking of this as a project. I see. I mean... How much funding do you have? I don't know. At least enough to get through the week. In other words, I like it. I want us to question these things.

[47:12]

And I don't want to be too clear. Clear. I don't want to be quick either. Or rather, I would like to be as clear as I can, knowing that really the clarity is not possible. Okay, so let me try to discuss the various things that have been brought up.

[48:13]

Again, we can say Buddhism is sourced in, rooted in, the experience of a difference between meditation and our usual mind. And very simply, you find you make a different decision in the mind of meditation than you would in the usual mind, then these are really different minds. If you experience separation and connectedness differently, if you experience suffering and And freedom from suffering differently, these are different minds. And then this distinction opens up a a greater connectedness between the minds of sleeping and waking.

[49:47]

And then opens up a flow of distinction between various modalities. of consciousness. When there's less duality, more duality, less subjective, et cetera. when there's self-referential thinking, when there's less self-referential thinking. Okay. But still, if it gets too complicated, we can't think it, we can't experience it. No, in other words, if I have a word, what a word can do, is it can gather attention and focus the attention on the body or the world or something.

[50:51]

And often Phrases that grab us, and in particular phrases from teaching and koans, gather attention in ways that don't fit into the puzzle, or tapestry of conceptual consciousness. Okay, so I would not say this bell is a field. But, we can treat it as a teacup or we can treat it as a bell.

[51:56]

And of course it is a concept. If there wasn't a clear concept behind it, the person who made it would make something that wouldn't ring. But even that way, it's an interlocking concept. interdependent concepts of making it, using it, etc. And this bell has in it the maker's name. So he put enough attention into it that he wanted his name to go along with it. Now, to know that this is Not an entity.

[53:14]

It's an activity. You can't actually... I can hold it, but what it is depends on my using it. I can hold it, but... Maybe we could say the sound is a is likely to give us the experience of a field. But knowing the bell is not an entity, it doesn't have a fixed inherent existence in this world. I wish it wouldn't have so many molecules that get in my nose.

[54:17]

Because I don't like the smell of metal, you know, like eat silverware when you eat... day in the bell nostril molecules okay okay if I know and I discipline to know if I discipline myself to know that there are no entities which have either permanence nor or inheritance. If I discipline myself to know that everything, all phenomena, are activities, my noticing it is an activity, this

[55:29]

Noticing does not generate a field of awareness. It generates a conceptual consciousness in which the concepts assume everything is an activity. So I wouldn't call this a field. I'd call it another kind of consciousness. Because my measure is not some kind of out-there-ness, it's my experience. No. If I... discipline myself until it's my natural habit, that I only see activity. That I never see a tree, I only see tree. Okay. that makes field consciousness more likely, but it itself is not field conscious.

[57:00]

Field awareness. In other words, if you really don't have If you don't have a feeling of no reference point mind, which is a way of saying an experience of emptiness, as long as you have a reference point mind, implicitly you assume there's something fixed in the world. You can't really experience a contentless mind. You can approximate it or get close to it or head in that direction, but not fully experience it. Okay.

[58:01]

Now, is there a content-less consciousness which is not awareness? I would say yes. Okay. Again, I'm just trying to, you know, I don't know anybody who's ever said these things before. Because I'm trying to use Western thinking and language to speak about Buddhist practice as well as I understand it through my own experience and study. And my own experience which tests the teachings I've received. and confirm or change the teaching service.

[59:19]

And although experience is the first priority for me, The development and opening up of my experience is thoroughly rooted in what I consider the most accurate and best of the tradition. Okay. But I'm still trying to find ways to say this, you know, and you're part of my project. So I've been debating for about a year. Is there a content-less consciousness, or should we always call that awareness?

[60:24]

It's not important to most people, but I think about it a lot. Okay. Now, since there are no entities and there's only activity, it means there's no absolute black and white. There's only shades of... of shades of gray and shades of white. So it means the direction within the spectrum functions as an entity at the end of the spectrum. Did you understand that? Yes. The direction within the spectrum functions as if it were an entity at the end of the spectrum.

[61:41]

I mean, for a simple example, When you start putting your luggage down, you feel free of your luggage even though it's not all put down yet. When you start picking up the luggage and start up the hill, I'll never forget the image of Leonard. Running with me in the subway for the train, trying to carry all my luggage. You were flying like a white beam in front of me. Do you remember? I don't know why you picked up all my luggage. I always carry too much, and I had so many. Do you remember? Now, why do some images touch us?

[63:00]

Unforgiven. You had a wonderful way of running and walking, too. As if your actual body was somewhat ahead of you when you were trying to catch up with it. As if your actual body was somewhere in front of you. And I was trying to catch up with you. Okay. So when you are moving in the direction of less concepts, now again, let's take the Yogacara truism. All states of mind have a have a physical component.

[64:04]

Okay, and all sentient physical experience has a mental component. Okay, so a mind With less concepts. Or where the concepts are not interlocked. I really don't like speaking about this so mechanically. But as I say. Freedom from concepts is itself a concept. So we have to approach a freedom from concept through concept. Doesn't mean there's not a freedom from concept. So I would say that probably when... when you have a conscious mind with less

[65:19]

of a conceptual structure. And I think you can experience this and feel this. And this mind stays anchored in the body physically as consciousness is usually physically anchored in the body. And when you shift to awareness, you shift where Awareness is metabolically anchored in the body. So it's accompanied by a physical shift as well as a mental shift. But as long as there's not a mental, physical shift, I would say probably you can still

[66:24]

You can call it a non-conceptual concept. And recently I'm struggling with how to speak about this. Because it's very difficult if I speak about it or try to make it clear. I don't implicitly turn it into entities. And make it sound like, to me and you, as if it were something real. Rather than just a different activity. Anyway, that's already too much. Yes. There is a kind of movie going on and this movie somehow composes certain elements which touched me or which I noticed today

[68:04]

And the one thing was this image of a puzzle which Richard gave us. And it was extremely interesting and particularly interesting when this cardboard puzzle changed in a computer-animated puzzle. Oh, yeah. I'm modern, you know. So in this kind of puzzle you can change things that are not so fixed. And then you also can somehow imagine that it's not only two-dimensionally but has several layers. And then you can also look how all these individual puzzles are fitting together and also interacting.

[69:43]

And the other thing was the image of Christa. which talked about psychotherapeutic encounter like a journey together in one boat. And I like that very much because somehow this created or brought into this idea of a journey. A journey which you do together. And clients don't come to us psychotherapists because they say something like, I want to examine my puzzle.

[70:46]

Or I would like to have a new puzzle. But they approach us and say, I don't have a problem. I would like to have a solution for this problem. And I would like to have this problem solved or I would like to have that my symptoms cease to exist. And suddenly an image occurred in me when we start such a therapeutic process. We as therapists are more or less forced or it's a necessity to explore this puzzle together with the client.

[71:54]

And when there is an idea that a problem is solved or a symptom has ceased to exist, then I have to assume that the client or we together will have to deal with a completely different kind of puzzle. I will have to assume that I or the client will have to be confronted with a completely different kind of puzzle. And in this process we will have several different stages of puzzles of change. And the picture of the Christ suddenly became a film consisting of various puzzles or changing puzzles.

[73:20]

And in between, like a landscape where you drive with the boat, So in responding to Christa's image, this movie somehow, or this image of a movie occurred in me, that there are several puzzles and there is also a stream and a boat. Yes, and sometimes you go with it, maybe you go in a boat or in two boats, maybe even better. Sometimes one travels in one boat together, and sometimes in two boats, maybe that's even better. Or to come to an agreement with the client that it might be better to walk, or to take the trains. And maybe at times there is a thing and you are gently brought into another direction.

[74:32]

Will you be my therapist? Here is my therapist. And then you also talk about a mind which is not either or, but is more going in one direction or the other, going in the direction of entity or... Well, not quite, but yes. Not quite, but yes. Well, not in the direction of an entity, but in one direction or the other, and functions as if it were an entity. Okay, yeah, I'm mistranslated. I'm getting tired. Well, we're supposed to eat because we had it arranged. And then I thought, maybe it's like this.

[75:39]

I'm just looking for what kind of mind a therapeutic situation is for me. And then just searching and investigating what kind of mind would be helpful for a therapeutic setting. And now there appeared these words of a curious or adventurous mind. which maybe might help to remain flexible. It's quite crazy, but I wanted to tell you. Well, of course, it doesn't sound crazy to me at all.

[76:42]

It sounds great. And, you know, earlier today you said you didn't understand what I meant by project. But you say, when you say, I wonder, what... is the most fruitful state of mind in a therapeutic setting, this is what I consider our project. And couldn't you understand the process of constellation? You're saying, well, here's the pieces of your puzzle. And let's put those pieces out in the room and see how they fit together, or maybe they fit together some other way that you don't know.

[77:44]

Okay, let's go have dinner and make the cook not too mad at us. Yeah.

[77:52]

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