Anyone want to bring up something we can talk about? Oh, yes, please, Gideon. I would like to continue where we just stopped. Great. Stand up and get up and standing. Yeah. Come up to standing, yeah. Yeah. Both is the appearance of standing. Yeah. Yet there is a difference. And maybe it seems to me the second is like a conscious quality. Yeah. That means the property has different types.

[01:09]

That means maybe we could say the appearance has different forms, qualities. And then you said that we, the people, are also differences. Since you said that we, the people, are also appearances, that means that a client is also an appearance. For sure. And mostly I would say that he has lost this conscious quality of appearance, of being there, this conscious quality of being. And thus there is a difference whether the client needs the stand-up Bakeroshi or the coming to standing.

[02:18]

The client is only going to get one of me. That's the difference. Yeah, I mean, the difference for me is that... One is conscious in the sense that it's conceptual. You're simply moving the body from point A to point B. And you're not experiencing A, [...] B, [...] B. That's an experience and not exactly it's conscious. But you're not functioning through a conception, you're functioning through an experience. Is that okay with you, Guido? Is this okay?

[03:42]

So the one is an experience, the other is more a concept. More of a concept, yeah. But you can say they're both appearances. But if you experience... If you experience... the standing from point A to point B, if you experience it as an appearance, you might shift to A and B. Because, are you a mathematician? Geometry or something? Anyway, my experience is the more you experience your aliveness, the less it becomes less conceptually directed,

[04:57]

And we could say, I would say in my lingo, it's in the physical field of awareness and not definitively in consciousness. And not in the... conceptual field of consciousness. Now, should I make a distinction between awareness and consciousness? Is that familiar to you or should I make the distinction? I should. Okay. This distinction became clear to me in the early years of practicing satsang that I began to know things that I hadn't made conscious, distinct decisions about.

[06:13]

And for the sake of being brief, for most of you, because I've made the distinction often, my main two examples of the difference is when you... Decide to wake up without an alarm clock. You know, you just don't have one. You don't need one. And say you decide to get up at 6.02. And you go to sleep at 11 or some hour. At 6.02, not just 6.01, you wake up. But you were asleep. No. You can't call that consciousness that woke you up.

[07:25]

So I'd call that awareness. and awareness penetrates, and awareness can carry intentions but not usual consciousness. Ulrike has translated that more than she said her own name to herself. And she goes to bed at night and she says, I'm not going to get up at 6.02. Somehow I always say 6.02. For me it would be more like 4.02, but I don't want to... Or you're carrying, my other example is you're carrying a bunch of packages.

[08:27]

Maybe a kind of glass vase or something even. And you fall. You trip on the ice or something. And somehow you catch yourself and you don't let this break against your chest and it doesn't break. And in the fractions of a second in which you fell, it's way too fast for consciousness to figure out where to put your arms and packages and so forth. So I would call that awareness. Let me finish the image first, okay?

[09:28]

And so awareness is sort of like a guardian angel. It's sort of with you, but you don't know it's with you until you fall or something. And obviously it knows, but it knows in a way that's not consciousness. And one of the things that meditation practice does, regular meditation, repeated meditation practice does, is unify body and mind in a field of awareness. A field of knowing that's more extensive and bodily than consciousness.

[10:37]

Okay, now. So maybe that's what I was trying to get at with this word quality. Yeah, probably you were. Because I think if I look at you bodily, you understand this. What we were looking at is when the client comes and For me, your terms are difficult, so I have to speak in my own. Please do. I'll try to learn them. What? So, he fell out of his own awareness. Okay. The client did.

[11:55]

And you, for example, with your exercise of standing, are in the awareness. Then you can very... The awareness in the client. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Was that the idea? Okay. A new thought for me was... To see this all as an appearance, the client, the standing, the word. To see this all as an appearance, the client, the standing, the word. Because in all this you have the possibility of going into the awareness of the appearance, and maybe that's the main point.

[13:09]

Yeah, okay, good. Thank you. I mean, I don't know how much... To what degree, but certainly to some degree, we as Westerners are afflicted by and affected by a sense that things were once a unity and it's dispersing a unity. And being is continuously making a unity or is a unity. I think Leibniz said something like, You're only a being if you're part of a larger being.

[14:21]

All right, whatever. That's the general classical idea of a unity. And I mention this partly just because I've been trying to think this through and find ways to speak about it. So, Guido, what, I mean, all these years, what I've been trying to do is find a way to express essentially significantly different worldviews. In English. And then about the time I met Martin over there, over here, I started having to develop a language in English that could be translated into Deutsch.

[15:52]

And this is a very historical event, this little seminar. Because the main person who patiently helped me translate things into Deutsch is sitting right there. And helped me with things like, which I still use in talking about the five skandhas, the first skandhas signal. Yeah, so all the time I'm trying to, you know, 24 hours sort of. I'm trying to sort of dip while I'm sleeping, while I'm walking.

[16:53]

It just happens. It's the way it is. The other day, yesterday, I think I said I'm a pluralist. I would say maybe a multiplicityist. In other words, I see the world happening in multiplicities. And there's no unity to those multiplicities. So the client comes into the room and there's a multiplicity happening and there's not a unity to it. But you can bring a unity into it. And when you bring a unity into it

[17:55]

Then fields of awareness and mutual connectedness and things start to happen. Anyway, that's enough about all that. Someone else, Reena. You're leaning forward. Something's on your mind. I can see it going through your cheekbones and up here. Someone else. The other few things I thought of coming up to eight. No, no, no. I mentioned two. And then you mentioned one of them. All of them have been mentioned except two or three.

[19:32]

And I was happy that I didn't have to mention them. I heard them. One was the field of mind, for instance, which you brought up. Stephan, brother. Stephan. Another was dimension or experienceable space. And that is something just in the conversation with Guido and I, and us, it was a quality of what we were talking about, a dimensionable and experienceable space. And the other which wasn't specifically mentioned but is implied in what we've been doing is arriving, awakening, arriving. What did you say?

[20:45]

Awakening, ankommen, erwacht, erweckt, das ankommt. And, of course, when... Das Erwachende ankommt. Arriving, awakening, arriving. Awakens, arriving. When we... Ankommen, erwacht, erweckt, ankommen. We're thinking about... How to say it. Well, it makes a difference in terms of what it means. Mm-hmm. Arriving, awakening, arriving. Ankommen, erweckt, ankommen. Wie willst du sagen? Ich habe das nicht genau mitbekommen. The way I said it was awakening awakens arrival. I mean arrival awakens arrival. So wie du es gesagt hast. Erweckt, ankommen. Okay. You can say it any way you want. But then it's something else. Well, that's all right. It's something else.

[22:00]

We have multiplicities here without unification. And those multiplicities are rich in their interplay. The emphasis on multiplicity without unity is Badiou's idea, partly, since you're a philosopher. who's also a mathematician. Okay. So obviously when client and therapist have their fateful encounter, It's a moment of arriving. But this arriving can be on every step down the sidewalk. You can practice it just as you walk, just arriving.

[23:15]

You're not going somewhere, you're always arriving. And when you arrive... at where you were going. No surprise because you've been arriving right along. Okay. Yes. I was just thinking about the relationship between the inner body of attention and the inner body of intention. My experience is that when I meditate, the first thing I build up is what I would call an inner body of intention. So I'm wondering about the relationship between you've been emphasizing what you called inner attentional body and my experience is that when I sit Zazen, the first thing I do is I sort of establish

[24:23]

what I would call an inner intentional body, which is a particular kind of posture and certainly influenced by the intention not to move. But then it's also within that inner intentional body I can have certain emphases. I can emphasize it in a particular way. My sense is that that influences an inner attentional body. For sure. In the way you've been speaking about, I'm wondering if you would make such a distinction in an intentional body or how you see that relationship in practicing. I feel that if I emphasize the inner intentional body too much, then there can be a feeling that I'm forcing myself into something that I not really am.

[26:06]

And then it's not always clear to me how the relationship between the intentional body and what I really feel the attentional body is, how that's kept most fruitfully alive between accepting and an intention to change. Well, I think you just have to play with how you're using the words. First, I would, in this particular conversation, I would drop the word body. And you don't have an inner intentional space, exactly. When you sit down, you have intentions. To sit a certain way. To lift through your spine.

[27:27]

So you could call the lifting through the spine an intentional body. But definitely we don't want to correct our posture much. A little in the first fine tuning during the first five or ten minutes. And then you just mostly let it be. without much intention except what happens through the sitting. Okay, now the experience of an inner attentional space may be partly created through an inner intention And if your intention is not just habitual or habit, but is something that you bring attention to, then the attention you bring to an intention

[28:56]

becomes part of your inner attentional space. And in English at least, it's more experienceable as space than as a body. And we're speaking about activities here, not entities. And the problem is when you think about them too much, you start turning them into entities. If your emphasis is not thinking about them, but primarily experiencing, the concept of intention in contrast to attention just doesn't happen. But then you can notice that Zazen practice creates an inner attentional space.

[30:20]

And then you can notice that that is in contrast to an outer attentional space. Because the outer attentional space is shaped and limited primarily by the five physical senses. Okay, I don't know if that's interesting to anybody, but I tried to sort out what you brought up. But you really have to not think about what you're doing. Just do it and pull thinking away from it. Okay. But the contrast between a sensorial outer attentional space and an inner attentional space is a useful conception to make.

[31:52]

Not because it's worth thinking about but only really because it allows one to deepen and further articulate experience. Okay. Okay, so now maybe I can make use of this contrast to speak about continuum. But I've been interrupted by my ancient translator, Winston Young.

[32:52]

I'm struggling with the idea, you know, I have an inner sensorial space. Yes, but it's not limited to the senses. That's true. And that makes a big difference. In that sense, I feel it's even a bigger sensorial space. Oh, it's a bigger space, but not... I feel everything. And it's also visual, like the space. Yeah, it feels visual. Yeah. And so in a sense with the skandhas, I mean, if I see my scene, then the outer sensorium is also kind of like... not real or, you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do. I think. So, yeah, I'm sorry. No, it's okay, but I think.

[34:01]

So, my inner sensory space that I also feel, Do I get to know what you said? I pretty much... Said it already, okay. I find that certain conceptions are very useful. And much of more advanced Buddhism, you have the Buddha whispering wisdom conceptions in your ear. Just for you, nobody else. Yeah. Now, Does that also refer to the world of imagination?

[35:27]

Can that go beyond what really exists? What, inner attentional space? Are you trying to imply that what goes beyond what really exists actually exists? Is that the secret agenda there? No, not like that, but I can listen to music and see images that don't exist. If you see images... It exists.

[36:40]

It exists as an image. True hallucinations. Or I can see landscapes, mountains. I do it all the time. Yeah, I mean dreams that produce things that, you know, where the heck did that come from? Yeah, okay. But I think that from the point of view of the imagination of an adept practitioner, My experience is at some point I only imagine what's possible. Anything I imagine is possible. It may not be possible to realize it, but it is possible. I don't think the impossible anymore.

[37:59]

I mean, some people may think so, but I don't. There's not much to it. Yeah, so if I thought of it, I know it's possible. Whether I act on it or not or whether I decide, you know, that's something else. And I could try to explain why I think that's the case and why it happens, but I would prefer not to. Only because we only have this afternoon and we have to have some reason to come back next year. Okay. One of the interesting things about the distinction between inner and outer attentional space.

[39:09]

First of all is the dynamic of attention. It's the dynamic of attention which gives these spaces functional reality. And you know, in all of the Buddhist lists, somebody I read somewhere, by the way, I mentioned it the other day, that Aristotle didn't have the word will or willpower. And I was just repeating what I've read because I don't know Greek for sure. But supposedly he had to use combinations of words to get at the idea of willpower because he just didn't have that as a linguistic resource in Greek. But supposedly he had to use combinations of other words to express this feeling of willpower, because he didn't have this word in Greek.

[40:29]

And I know that, and I mentioned this in Hanover, I guess, that when I first started singing sashins, you had to have willpower to do a sashin. And I realized that wasn't right and didn't work. What I needed was willingness. Well, willingness in the way I use it isn't really part of English. Willingness is a word that awakens patience and so forth. as a willingness in English, and this willingness is a word that arouses patience. Okay, all right. So... the most problematic... I mean that the... in often... in many, a large percentage of Buddhist lists of things, you know,

[41:46]

One is energy or discipline or something like that. And we don't have, I cannot find a word in English that conveys what's meant in those lists. And it's the contrast, usually, as I've said this before and I'd say it again, that the word Sila is Yudha, Sila, Samadhi and Prajna. And early Buddhism Particularly emphasized, you have to develop sila, samadhi and krajina, wisdom, samadhi and sila, which is almost always translated discipline.

[42:49]

Which sounds like discipline, which sounds like something from outside, willpower. Training yourself, concentrating. It doesn't mean that at all. What it really means is the ability to cultivate the mind in a way that allows you to hold an intention. It's like you hold the precepts, you don't follow them. Okay. So the word, which is usually energy or discipline or something like that in these lists, it's more something like the, it's more something like attentional vitality.

[44:10]

It basically assumes you might be smart, you might be healthy, you might be all kinds of things, but if you don't have attentional vitality, none of it's going to work, none of it's going to come together. And I've said to people sometimes, one of the dictums of Buddhism ought to be never sacrifice your state of mind. If you're going to lose your job, you can only keep your job if you're willing to sacrifice your state of mind. I'd consider quitting.

[45:20]

And if you're not going to quit, know that you are sacrificing your state of mind. But I might also say, never sacrifice your attentional vitality. Fine, just ask your basic life decision to keep yourself in a field of attentional vitality. What can the matter be? That's a Johnny Sawan affair. He's fell in love with it. She knows not to translate my little verse of song.

[46:26]

I can't sing. I can't sing worth a damn, but I remember all these phrases from songs. As I say, whenever I sing by the window, people help me out. Okay, so... So when you explore the difference between the outer attentional space and noticing the distinction helps you explore this distinction. As Gregory Bateson always said, you can only think a difference.

[47:28]

You can only notice a difference. He's quoting somebody else actually. So the distinction between outer attentional space and inner attentional space allows you to notice both. and allows you to notice how you bring attentional vitality to the outer sensory and how you bring attentional vitality into your zazen space. Okay. And then you notice, oh, of course, there are sensorial components to the inner attentional space. And then you notice the inner sensorial components are quite different than the outer sensorial components.

[48:52]

And then you can develop the inner sensorial components independent of the outer sensorial components and then play with joining them and taking them apart. And then you can develop Yeah, and then you can see there's involuntary elements to the inner attentional space. And then you can discover that you can take the contents more easily away from inner attentional space than you can remove the contents from outer attentional space. And then you can create an inner attentional space which has no contents Then you can open up the outer attentional space into this larger space which has no contents.

[50:07]

Now, this is, to me, extremely basic meditation practice. But what's interesting to me, and I think it's because in the West we discover these things differently than, say, Dogen did. Very few people have pointed this out. And pointing it out helps to realize it. Okay. Thank you very much. Let's have a break. Here's the starting line for the toilets. On your mark.

[50:59]

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