Thank you for being here. Old friends and some new people I don't know. And thank you, Norbert and Angela, for putting it together again. And, uh, For me, as some of you know, I'm debating whether I should continue these seminars. But the difference for me is if we can do these seminars so there's more engagement with each other as a sangha. And as some of you know, I am debating with myself whether I should continue these seminars. And the important difference for me is the question whether there will be more participation with and through the Sangha.

[01:07]

Or at least from the participants in these seminars. And although all of you may not be psychotherapists, I always imagine the context of what I speak about is somehow in a psychotherapeutic context. And in the last Winter Branches, it sort of came up that maybe there are so many therapists psychotherapeutic therapists and physical therapists too in the Sangha.

[02:12]

The idea came up, it's almost like they're different guilds in the Sangha. Computer programmers, therapists. We ought to consider getting to get any percentage that want to of the therapists in the Sangha. and exploring together after all these years together how therapy, psychotherapy and dharma practice, dharma therapy work together. Or influence each other.

[03:33]

I don't think we want to conflate psychotherapy and Buddhism. Because their differences are advantageous. But still, obviously there's some influence. of therapy on Buddhism and vice versa in the West. So anyway, several people are talking about it, and if it comes to anything, some of you will hear about it. Now I noticed that the last year, which I often do mention, Dogen's statement

[04:46]

To place yourself in the midst of immediacy and consider this the entire universe. So I think the more that you the longer we practice, the more the obvious idea of immediacy becomes more important. And to consider this the entire universe, that's a rather complex idea, which probably we won't talk about. But anyway, we just finished yesterday afternoon a three-day seminar in Hanover.

[06:06]

Aber wir haben gestern Nachmittag gerade ein dreitägiges Seminar in Hannover beendet. And some of you were there. Und einige von euch waren da. And I think it's worth bringing some of what we discussed there into this gathering. Und ich glaube, es ist es wert, einiges von dem, was wir dort besprochen haben, auch hier in diese Versammlung hineinzubringen. Can you hear me okay in the back? I like this new configuration. Well, one of the things we spoke about was, which I, is using my granddaughter who was 20 months old now and when the incident I'm telling you now was several months ago. When I have some close contact with a child, an infant,

[07:21]

when I have close contact with an infant, I'm aware that they're in a partially painted canvas. And maybe most of the canvas isn't painted at all. And the infant is kind of like trying to fill in the blanks. And what is that process? noticing and filling in the blanks. And in many ways it's parallel to Zen practice because we deconstruct the way we usually represent the world to ourselves. And how we deconstruct the world and then reconstruct it

[08:43]

It might even be something that could be brought into psychotherapeutic practice. Maybe it is already, but at least there would be a Buddhist angle to it that we could consider. So Paloma, her name is Paloma, my granddaughter. And she and my granddaughter. two older daughters and my youngest daughter were all in Johanneshof recently. They came from California for a wedding here in Germany. Die sind aus Kalifornien gekommen, um eine Hochzeit hier in Deutschland zu besuchen.

[10:19]

So a few months ago, anyway, just to start with this as our muse. Also vor ein paar Monaten, einfach nur um das mit unserer Muse zu beginnen. A few months ago, her grandmother, my former wife, Also, vor ein paar Monaten, da hat Ihre Großmutter, meine ehemalige Frau, went out on the porch or deck of their house in Berkeley, my daughter's house in Berkeley. Sie sind rausgegangen auf die Terrasse von dem Haus meiner Tochter in Berkeley and said to Paloma, What are you doing, Paloma? Und da hat sie zu Paloma gesagt, Paloma, was machst du da? And Paloma said, Lookie, Thinking. Now, we don't know, of course. I mean, we sort of know what she means by looking. Some kind of visual, sensorial activity. But was she just looking or was she looking for something?

[11:21]

And thinking, maybe she meant feeling. Maybe she wasn't thinking in our usual sense, but just feeling. There's no way we could ask her questions about it because she simply doesn't have the resources to respond. But we can sort of guess In our culture, she would tend to hear the word thinking, so she would probably use the word thinking. But it might be really, if we could really notice what she was doing, she was simply feeling these sensorial impressions. I bring this up because it's a big cultural difference between our Western habit and

[12:49]

particularly the Buddhist habit, of primarily feeling the world and not thinking or thinking about the world. It's such an important emphasis in Buddhism, and particularly Zen Buddhism, as that I've mentioned, but I don't think last year I didn't mention it here, But recently I've been mentioning this word Hishiryo in Japanese. I'm trying to bring these things up in some kind of pattern over the months I'm teaching in Europe and so forth.

[14:04]

So we can establish some kind of common ground in our practice, primarily lay practice dispersed in here and there in Europe. so that we can create something like a common foundation in our practice, which is primarily a lay practice and is spread far across Europe. And Dogen says Hishiryo is the most important word in Buddhism. And it's certainly emphasized in our lineage, our soto lineage. And the word means something like non-measured or unmeasurable thinking. Und das Wort bedeutet so viel wie nichtmessendes oder unbemessendes, unbemessendes, unbemessendes Denken.

[15:44]

Yeah, but more accurately, it's unmeasured noticing. Danke. Wait, what did you say? He sure young means unmeasured. Thinking. Denk. but I said more accurately it would be unmeasured noticing. Okay, so how to translate that into some kind of actionable words? In English, I don't know, I leave you up to do it in Deutsch. That's the hard part, I just take the easy way out. Yeah, it would be, I think the easiest way to practice with it in English is It means to notice without thinking.

[16:58]

Or notice without thinking about. Or to notice, and sometimes I spell it in my own mind, K-N-O-W-T-I-C-E. And I bring this up because, you know, if you just think about this for a few minutes, if you're not processing your experience through thinking, how do you establish memories? Do we accumulate experience through just noticing without thinking, or do we have to think about it to create experience?

[18:03]

Yeah, and I only can from my personal experience and the tradition assure you, you do create, you do accumulate experience through noticing as well as through thinking. And you accumulate experience, store, accumulate experience, in which the dynamic of that experience is different than the accumulated experience through consciousness.

[19:19]

That is, we'd say in English, in slang, that's a game changer. It's a psychotherapeutic game changer. Okay. Okay. So driving down here from Hanover with Gerald and Nicole, I asked them, was there anything from the Hanover Seminary you thought should be brought into these two days?

[20:35]

One of the things Gaurav mentioned right away was I might speak again about noticing change. Now, yeah, okay. So the topic of the seminar in Hanover was basic teachings, basic practices, basic attitudes, basic postures, something like that. And I made it the distinction between basic teachings which can be evolved through

[21:43]

attention to detail. Now, just the concept basic teachings implies advanced teachings. And I would make a distinction then between beginning teachings and basic teachings. Basic teachings are teachings needed for realization and freedom from mental suffering. Freedom from mental suffering and what else? And realization. Okay. Now, some basic teachings are also beginning teachings.

[22:55]

But if they're basic teachings, again, you can develop them, evolve them through their repetition and through attention to what flows from them. Now, there are basic teachings which are the basis for advanced teachings, but don't evolve from the basic teachings, but are the basis, the foundation for advanced teachings. And in this sense, Buddhism is more like a science. We tend to treat religion in the West as everything can arise through faith and belief.

[24:37]

And in the West we think, we treat religion as if everything arises from belief. But in physics you wouldn't get very far if you just had faith in physics. Yeah. And also I think in a kind of simple view of psychotherapy and psychology, the sense is that it's a process. Everything you need is there. It's a process of uncovering it with skilled help. Of physics and psychology, you said? No, psychology. Okay. Am I speaking in too long phrases? No, I'm not speaking too much. Well, you will. You're asking me what I'm saying more often than usual.

[25:54]

No, no, no. Yeah. All right. So, maybe the concept in... a simple concept in psychotherapy is you're uncovering. Yeah. And in Buddhism it's... There's the sense of recovering from the past. And also discovering what hasn't been known yet. Particularly in Zen takes that view. In many Buddhist schools, at least, there's an emphasis on the Buddha is the beginning point and the end point. But in Zen, the Buddha is the beginning point, but who knows what the end point is going to be? Because things change, and you've all experienced things the Buddha never experienced.

[27:10]

So, advanced teachings, why I say this is that, I'm trying to create a context here. There are some aspects of Buddhism which you couldn't come to in your own lifetime. They were created over generations until finally they became a teaching. It took three, four hundred years of people practicing to make it a teaching. So that's an advanced teaching you can bring into the teaching stream, but it doesn't arise just by doing meditation. Unless you're a genius and live 300 years.

[28:22]

Then you have a chance. Okay, so that's maybe interesting because it means Buddhism can bring certain things into the tradition, the tradition of psychotherapy is what, 100 years old or a little more, not much? It's very clear Buddhism has been... I said a little bit more. Oh, I see. Okay.

[29:27]

Okay. So, change. If there's a basic teaching, a basic attitude, certainly in Buddhism it's that everything changes. Change itself changes. Nothing is really predictable except in a very primitive sense. Okay. So everything's changing. So I think maybe that would be a basic, as I said in Hannover, way to start, really noticing everything's changing. Kind of immerse yourself in change. Your right hand is changing in ways your left hand is not.

[30:39]

And your right hand can feel your left hand, or your left hand can say, hey, that's my turn. You can feel your right hand. And you're breathing and there's blood going around and stuff like that. And there's a translator waving her arms around next to you. And there's all of us sitting here and there's wind and rain and blah, blah, blah. Okay. You know, that's repetitious though, blah, blah, blah. But it's different each time you say it. Yeah. A seal in Buddhism, you know, a seal. is a symbol of change.

[31:53]

Because once it's made, as an entity, it's the same. But when it's used, it's different on every document in every situation. So it emphasizes how context establishes each moment. What I'm saying now, even though I said it in Hanover, it's a bit different. Quite a bit different. Now, if you do... Say, try it out for a while, just immersing yourself, noticing change, difference, difference, difference, change.

[33:01]

From the point of view of feeling, I have a spine, I can feel my spine, a spine, a spine right now. Aus der Perspektive des Spürens kann ich eine Wirbelsäule spüren. Ich habe eine Wirbelsäule. As soon as I say my, I know it's a mistake. Oder meine Wirbelsäule. Aber sobald ich sage, dass es meine Wirbelsäule ist, weiß ich, dass das falsch ist. I mean, it's located in this back that I travel around with. But it changes so regularly, I can hardly think it was mine. I don't even know what's going on with it. It's the beginning of a period of zazen, it's one way, and then ten minutes into zazen it changes. After about 20 minutes, it suddenly appears out of the top of my head.

[34:08]

And when I sit down in a chair at a desk, it takes me a moment to find my spine before I start working. So when I feel the world, I have many spines. And when I think the world, I have, I guess, one spine. Okay. So let's go back to the change. And I think you've been all sitting long enough. We ought to have a break soon.

[35:10]

But let me say a couple of things for a moment or two. If you do immerse yourself in this change, intentionally immerse yourself in noticing change, From one point of view, you're kind of lost. You're just lost in the midst of change. Kind of nice. But you can't really notice change unless you have a reference point which doesn't change or changes less. So if you just immerse yourself in the fact of change, you'll also find you start having an implicit reference point in your breath. or your spine.

[36:28]

Once you notice that reference point, you can then conceptualize it as a reference point. That gives it more experienceable definition, actually. And if you have noticed this reference point for the first time, then you can also understand it as a reference point. And this, in turn, actually gives it more recognizable definitions. Yes, so the spine or the breath through this just entering the field of change Something like in the most traditional and easy actually is to make breath or the spine your reference point.

[37:33]

And since your change isn't limited to your body, things are changing around you, your circumstances are changing. If you emphasize change like kind of a a blood, a circulatory system running through the world. You'll come to two recognitions, I think. You can come to two recognitions. One is the reference, that there's a reference point, implied reference point, and you can conceptualize it effectively as the spine or the breath.

[38:36]

And you can also recognize that the change occurred is a field of change. You're in the midst of a field of change. So instead of seeing the world in terms of entities, you can feel the world as an entity. a layered field penetrating everything. These two now suggested conceptions A reference point and a field.

[39:40]

The much of Buddhist practice is impossible without these two concepts and two experiences. In this sense, it's so basic that it arises from a simple thing like noticing everything is changing. So this is a basic teaching you won't find in a book or in Google. But in fact, it arises from our actual situation. As the need for a break arises from our legs and stomach and so forth.

[40:42]

Thank you very much. Thank you for transitioning. Before we start my favorite part of the discussion, I think I should try to give a little more form, a resolution to what I spoke about before the break. Yes.

[41:47]

So, what are the ingredients we're establishing here? One is the experience and concept of immediacy. And the word immediacy, literally in English, means no in-betweenness. So we could say, Dogen is saying, establish yourself in the non-duality of immediacy. And Dogen says, As soon as I bring that in, it's a much more complex practice.

[42:53]

But I'm not wanting to make it more complex, but I'm just wanting to initiate an awareness of its depth and potential evolution. Now, at least if we, you know, it's, you know, the here and now and all that stuff, right? Or the now and sometimes here. Sometimes now. This is a commonplace idea nowadays. But to make it a practice, we have to think of it as to locate yourself in immediacy and nowhere else. When you can approach, move in the direction of nowhere else.

[44:22]

So we're not speaking about an absolute, absolutely nowhere else, but moving in the direction of experience of nowhere else but here. Okay, now, just as in the midst of change you needed some kind of reference point, And literally, Dharma means what holds, what stays in place. Dharma assumes a reference point in the midst of change. Now, again, when we do a seminar like this, we're trying to bring ourselves with each other more into this kind of dharmic context and practice. As we need a reference point in the midst of change,

[45:59]

in the midst of immediacy, we could say we need some kind of balance. The balance would be the location in the midst of immediacy. Dogen says, locate. Locate yourself fully in the midst of immediacy. These elixir-like statements that are the result of Dogen's decades of practice and the centuries of practice of the lineage can be explored and need to be explored in practice.

[47:32]

Because each word or many words in the phrase are like mountains surfacing in the sentence. You don't see the rest of the mountain. Every word or many words in such an expression are like mountains that come to the surface in the sentence and you see the top of these mountains and not the whole rest. Yeah, so each word, so key words are the tops of mountains of experience. Okay, so to locate your... Hmm? Iceberg. Did you say iceberg? No. I didn't, but I could have. We know the example of an iceberg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could have, but I decided it's too cold around here.

[48:46]

It's already chilly in here. Okay. Yeah. So to locate yourself fully in immediacy... would mean you have no idea of anywhere else. That's one aspect of consider this the entire universe. Yeah, and... So you need some kind of phrases you get familiar with.

[49:46]

Like to notice your circumstances and then have a feeling here and nowhere else. Now in Hanover I suggested that the phrase Here and nowhere else. The word here initiates a kind of physical sense of being here. And then our mind starts to think. So you add the phrase and nowhere else to kind of fold the thinking back into the here.

[50:47]

Now a practice like this doesn't mean you're trying to do it establish some kind of continuity which can be described in that practice. If you practice the piano, you don't sit at the piano 24 hours. Have a concert the next day. Even then. So we do play when we don't want to and we play when we want to and feel we can make some music out of the keys. So you try these things on.

[51:48]

And trying them on, sometimes they make a bit of music. You may suddenly in some annual situation suddenly feel some kind of profound ease or joy at just being there for that moment. And those experiences become openings, doors, and boundaries too.

[52:53]

Boundaries in a positive sense in that they extend their boundaries and they become part of the inventory even of potential experience. Potential experience. Okay. Now, the other phrase I came up with in Hanover was, which came out of the way we were developing a... developing practice, and it's not something I could have thought my way to, but it was a fruit of practicing with those particular people in Hannover.

[53:54]

den ich mir irgendwie hätte ausdenken können, sondern das ist ein Satz, der aus der gemeinsamen Praxis dieser ganz spezifischen Leute in dem Seminar entstanden ist. And that phrase was no other, in English of course, I don't know what you do in Deutsch, but in English, no other where. Und dieser Satz war kein anderes wo. Okay, so If you try on this, to immerse yourself fully in it immediately. You can use either of these phrases or something that is your own creation. Yeah, nowhere else but here. Or no other where.

[55:09]

And you try this on sometimes. See if you can have, again, no past and future, no here and there. this no in-betweenness. To taste this is, you know, to have a feel for it, a taste of it, a sense of it is, yeah, yeah, can be revolutionary. To develop a taste of it, a feeling or a taste, that can be revolutionary. And you can also use this feeling of So you could take spinal breath column.

[56:42]

So we could speak about maybe three aspects of breath practice. One aspect is just maybe a spatial aspect. the spinal, spine, breath column. Yeah. And that takes, I mean, to more and more experientially establish that in your body and mind, in body, and as I say, in-minded as well as in-bodied. And that is located in the medium. And then the... The second aspect of breath practice is the succession of breaths.

[57:55]

Okay, now we're breathing. All of you have been breathing for a long time. As long as you are, you've been breathing. I hope anyway. We'll skip a few now and then. But you've been breathing, but you generally don't count your breaths. Until you... Somebody suggests, why don't you count your breaths? I lost count about ten years ago. My son-in-law is quite into... gadgets. And he supported himself through college and university fixing everybody's computers professionally.

[59:08]

So he got me to get a Fitbit watch. Oh, damn thing tells me I did 37,340 steps. What in the hell I did? That was my new thing. And then it tells me In addition, I went up a certain number of steps. How does it tell when I'm going upstairs and just not walking? I don't know. So I've tried it out for a couple of weeks now. And the other day when I was in Freiburg, I was to meet my... and Marie-Louise for dinner.

[60:14]

So I walked to the restaurant and I'd forgotten the Fitbit watch. Oh, I found myself pounding my steps. Damn thing trained me. So it was 1,500 steps to the cemetery, another 500 to the hotel. What the heck am I counting? I never counted steps before. But once I had the concept, I started counting. So there's the column of the breath. And I can't tell you again how important that is to develop this feeling of a spine breath column.

[61:31]

As a spatial location. And if you do establish that, really, in your zazen and other times too, like sitting at your desk, it will, sometimes several years later, but it will begin to develop aspects of practice that are kind of almost secret. It's like if someone told you, just keep learning the multiplication tables and then one day you'll solve Fermat's Last Theorem. It's like when someone tells you, just always learn your one-by-one, and at some point it will happen that you... Fermat's?

[62:50]

Is that it? Fermat's last theorem. The last theorem of Fermat. Which somebody did solve. Some smart Russian guy. Somebody did solve it. I mean, that's not really true in mathematics, but the concept is there. So you can't see the results, but there's a kind of incubation of contingent redundancy that begins to take form. an outgrowth of a contingent redundancy. Why don't you say something else?

[64:01]

But I love the phrase, the incubation of contingent redundancy. It has a lot to do with Darwin and developing Darwin's theories. It has a lot to do with Darwin and the development of Darwin's theories. This incubation is something we express, incubation, contingent redundancy. Contingency, things that function through chance and proximity. Also Kontingenz, wo die Dinge durch Zufall und durch die Nähe zueinander interagieren, miteinander funktionieren. So many practices ripen in ways you cannot know unless you just do them. Und viele Übungen reifen auf Art und Weise, die man nicht wissen kann, aber die einfach geschehen, wenn man sie ausführt.

[65:09]

Und das kann Gerald auch bestätigen. Okay. So, you're establishing the spatial location of the spinal breath, spine breath column. And next you have the concept, it is a concept, I could count the breaths. So you bring the concept of counting the breaths to the breath, which you haven't counted in the past, except because you've started practicing. I'm trying to be very basic here and put everything in as if you did it for the first time. So you start counting the succession of breath.

[66:12]

And the traditional teaching is you know when it's a long breath and you know when it's a short breath. And that isn't really about that you have short breath and long breath. That just is a way of saying, be present to the uniqueness of each breath. Each one is different. So, the counting the breaths means the repeated succession of uniqueness. And that is duration or time. So now the succession of breaths, you're still located in immediacy.

[67:44]

But now you've brought time and change into immediacy through the passage, path of the breath. That's the second aspect of breath practice. And the third aspect is the developing the bond of attention and breath. Okay. So if somebody said to you, what is mind? What is your experience of mind? Most people would have no idea what to say. But if I say to you, what is your experience of attention?

[68:52]

Well, almost everyone would have some sense of what attention is. So attention is obviously a dimension of mind. And attention is a dimension of mind that's not limited to consciousness. Because attention can be present in dreaming mind. So attention is a dynamic of mind and an experienceable dynamic of mind which you can develop. So when you bring attention to the breath, you're not simply bringing attention to the breath. If you think in entities, yes, you are. But if you think in the knowing everything is an activity and there are no entities.

[70:18]

then you're bringing attention to the breath is a fitness practice. Yeah, because you're exercising and developing attention by bringing it to the breath. And you're developing the breath. And the breath becomes impregnated with attention. And it develops little flashlights and things like that and can explore your body. So in Zazen you're not just simply counting your breath. You're actually, you know, in a fitness studio with your breath and your... attention at all.

[71:34]

And if you're sensitive to these... Now, when I said basic practices evolve through detailed attention... What I mean by that is you now have the sensitivity of attention, the intimacy of attention, is that you can notice how attention is evolving and breath is evolving through the attention. And each breath becomes more satisfying and more, I mean, you don't notice it right away, but each breath does become more satisfying and reaches throughout the body and mind in more and more full ways.

[72:53]

And so that every breath becomes more and more satisfying. You may not notice everything immediately, but over time, every breath penetrates the body more and more fully. Now, there's more I could say about establishing balance in immediacy, equanimity and so forth, that relate to Zen practice and, I imagine, to psychotherapeutic practice, at least the Doksana relates. But I would like to leave that to later. And just say now I'm imagining if I were a psychotherapist and someone's going to come and see me I would have fun establishing my spinal breath column location before the person comes in.

[74:13]

So that I would feel this spine breath column I would feel the succession of breaths. Why are they late? And I would feel this sphere of attention and breath bonded in a presence. And I would allow that presence to welcome the client.

[75:15]

And I'd start out with what you must do, I suppose, as a therapist, with a kind of initially deep, non-critical listening. Okay, that's all I want to say. Now, my question is, can any of you imagine this is useful in therapy? And I'd like to hear, you know, and what she will do is she will translate simultaneously And I won't interfere. There will be no English interference. And if you could sort of more turn toward each other and have a conversation which includes each other, I'd like that.

[76:19]

Just where you're sitting is fine. Except that Norbert should come here. To make more of a circle. Don't ruin your glasses. Come on. Good, thank you. More. You can turn more.

[77:32]

Oh, you have this elaborate seat there. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's better. Okay. On the mark. Get set. Go. And I have nothing to say. I have a question for those of you who might be interested in the recording. I could turn it off now. Then we can just talk like this. Or do you prefer to record it? Does anyone have a reaction to it? Otherwise I turn it off. I think it's nice when it's recorded because... This way you can hear both the question and the comment about it. And the comment without a question is usually like this. It's so empty in the room, it has no meaning. If someone has something against it, then I'll let it run.

[78:40]

Otherwise we can hide it. I think the last sentences you said, in my opinion, exactly the situation in a therapeutic relationship between a client or patient and the therapist.

[79:45]

There has to be a space that, without judgments, conceptions, or ratings and I think a therapist must also be settled in itself or grounded in order to solve the complaints and problems of the patient and client and finally, in my opinion, the healing in therapy is always the relationship that results from it between the patient and the therapist and Everything else beyond that is, in my opinion, technology, which is important and helpful, like tools for the craftsman.

[81:13]

But if a change is to take place, it can only take place within the framework of a portable relationship. Yes, you can clearly describe it with relationship, but then the question is, where do I go from? This is first of all with the headline, to create a space of relationship, and then the question is, My task as a therapist is to make this room potentially healing, and that is exactly what I find so exciting, how the practice works into my work, that I can shape it more.

[82:26]

So I think, for example, in this spatial spine, breath, colon, gear. Or I have in the last time, I experimented a lot with it, that I shift my sense of location here. Sometimes in therapy, for example, I have the feeling that it is stretching and it does not go any further. And it is very strange what happens sometimes. And I think there are a lot of experiences and things that we do that we work in this way. Where do I localize myself and what space do I create in which a therapy takes place? I would like to refer to the concept of the same floating attention, which is certainly well known to many, we work with it in psychoanalysis, but it seems to me more and more to be a concept of the head, that through what we have heard now,

[83:39]

substanzieller, das angereichert wird. Das ist mir das Wort embodiment ein dazu, also dieses ganzheitliche oder intersubjektive zu sein. Das andere plausibel erscheint uns. For me, the relationship actually begins a while before I see the patient or the client. Namely, at the moment when I think of them. At that moment I open a room for this person. And I let a common space between me and this person arise. The first direct intervention is to experience my body.

[84:44]

That means, in the moment when I greet someone, this person reacts to my body. That's what I experience as the first and sometimes also the most intense intervention for the whole session. That means, for me, is it helpful, before I have seen the person, to come into a state that I first take him in this room. Afterwards, I experience this again and again, that it is a creation of a common space in which something can develop. And this common space, this is my experience, I shape it in such a way that it does not scare the client or patient.

[85:47]

I can create a space that is so far away from him that he could be afraid of him. That means I try to shape him in such a way that he is a little further than his experience so far. so that he can make an experience of being held at the same time and developing at the same time. That would be the constant change. I think that the greeting situation that you mentioned is much more important to me than the patient itself. The patient has to come to me again. I am at the front first, or in general, that you feel something, or whether I think it is very important to get the first impression of the relationship, which obviously does not come to you.

[86:55]

Yes, I think that is very remarkable or significant. Yes, I think it's nice that you say that again. It doesn't mean that when I am at my own mercy, that I am not at the same time I am the client or the clientess. I think this is ultimately an essential element of therapeutic action, that I always, so to speak, at the same time, my self, my feelings, my thoughts, but also my physical state and always in change or at the same time, the thoughts, the physical reactions and feelings of the patient.

[88:04]

I find that fascinating, but also very difficult. This simultaneous realization. As a non-therapeutic, I'll just throw something into the room that I just noticed because of the statements. I imagine that when I work as a therapist and apply what has just been said, breathing, posture, spine, when the concentration is with me for the first time, completely independent of an outsider, so also independent of a patient who enters a room, that through this freedom that I am building up at the moment, through a room that is completely

[89:24]

How should I put it? A space that is created by me first of all only in this... Yes, where do I stand? What do I do? What does it mean for me where I am right now in this room? There arises such a free space. And the freer I have it for myself, the greater is the space, in my opinion, for the one who comes in there. The less I in my own, let's say, home at home, because I'm constantly looking at which door is opening right now, then I only see doors, but I forgot to see the room. And if I don't see the room, then in the end I see many doors, but I lost the basis. It seems to me that the focus is too much on what comes in, instead of focusing on what is already in it.

[90:51]

I just had something to add. While you were talking about the image of a stinking instrument, I also work with instruments sometimes, but the main instrument with which I work is myself. And when I am in tune, then I am in the highest level of resonance. That is what I am encouraged to do in this work. I would also say something about resonance, namely that it makes a big difference for me whether I work with individual clients or make a group. That's somehow completely different from the setting. If someone comes alone, I usually open the door And I have a first contact, so to speak, in that moment. And I am often surprised that this is usually a joyful moment. Someone laughs at me. Then I am in the forum down there, social, then I say, I also call it social space.

[91:57]

There I have to do something, the person is already in the treatment room. So there are three stages where I can also see how someone is on it and that creates a resonance in me. That can be joy, then some subtlety, also this and that, formality and so on. And then comes this protected therapy room, so to speak, and there I actually try to establish this landing and spatial feeling somehow. And I find that much more difficult in an individual therapy, because if I have a group, then I take at least 10 minutes for this group to arrive, with a bell, with a slow arrival, so really a meditation, with breathing, feeling the body. and the fact that it is now a protected area, and that has proven itself very well. But I just don't dare to take away ten minutes from such a small hour, let's say an hour, and that really makes a big difference. which I appreciate very much, so that I make more and more groups in the meantime and also try to encourage people to visit such groups, where this longer arrival and inner feeling, and there I also noticed that Roshi's instructions with breath and spine, really something like a new space,

[93:22]

That's what I was saying about resonance, that I find it very interesting when I myself perceive the whole thing as a space of resonance, so to speak, and also try to convey that, that the people who come also learn that they to feel what kind of movements arise in the body, which are not just thoughts, which are often manipulated and conceptual and so on. So to get a sense of what kind of resonances arise and thus to find the bottom. So somehow to get a stronger honesty or understandability through it. Yes, please. and it just occurred to me that I am already short-sighted when I go into contact, so really in the vastness of my short-sightedness, because I have already evaluated this contact before, good or bad, but in some form or form, that is why I am open to what is coming and I am not even near myself, but I am already, before the contact arises, in a certain excitement and through evaluation.

[94:56]

For me, this is a practice that I take with me as an exercise before the contact, so that I can lean on the barbell and then get out of the short-lived state, so that I actually have space for it, so that it doesn't come too close to me and doesn't react so much to my own body weight. This is something that I would like to learn as a very practical exercise. Thank you. I don't just find the moment of the person very important in the therapy, but also the moment when I take the medicine and look through the therapy and put something new into it, something that the patient doesn't really have an insight into or a new impulse. That's not so much fun.

[96:05]

I have a small question for you. Don't you think it's much better to talk about what happened before, so to speak, in order to think about the future? Yes, I think it's both. First, you have to look at what is now, and then you have to look at what might be new, or what aspect should be different. Not not short, but not so far, so couldn't go to it. The difficulty, I find, when I am working therapeutically, is to get into a state, I would say, without evaluation, because without evaluation I find it very idealistic, at least for me, even though I try. And what Dr. Röschi talked about earlier with this state of immeasurability, that's one thing.

[97:23]

something that I can try to get closer to, during a therapeutic session, over and over again, because I realize the tendency to get into a evaluation, that happens uninterruptedly, and in the end I experience it again and again as an attempt to become inferior in evaluation, Yes, to become aware of the evaluation or to become aware of my physical reaction in the moment when I evaluate, I change immediately. I would like to come back to this term of free-floating awareness. I always have discussions with colleagues, especially with a psychoanalytic colleague, and we always ask ourselves how this can be learned.

[98:41]

because it is, so to speak, the challenge of Freud, that it must be learnable, otherwise it does not work, what he has foreshadowed. And there is no real curricula for this. And I find this expression, especially in relation to what Belkaroshi says again and again, quite exciting, because Free floating means that it needs a space in which something can float. And I often experience the therapeutic sessions as, from my point of view, as if I create this space that you have described and into which many things float, many things from me and many things from clients. and then I observe myself, how I want to deal with it, in the process, and then there are some things that come into play, they come into the drawer, we'll have to talk about that in a moment, and then they come into other drawers, we've already talked about that,

[100:06]

or these are my new ideas, and something keeps them in the background, so to speak, and can then later be incorporated into this situation of mine. But the whole thing as a space I experience as something like a quiet space, so the space itself is quiet, And this silence has something to do with physicality, with breathing, with the spine, and not always, so to speak, to push back. This silence, from which then this room arises, into which things float in. But aren't these things that make you feel resonances, aren't they the same? Yes, of course. Exactly.

[101:09]

So where I, so to speak, by not burdening myself from the beginning with thoughts or feelings, which are perhaps already clear to you, that I try not to activate them, Is this room open for the resonances that are there and to notice them? Wouldn't that have an effect on me? Of course, that can also be a feeling of its own, which suddenly widens. Yes, of course. I wanted to make one more remark, which is very important to me. is that the room is really open for everything. Exactly. Evaluations, everything appears there. Even a disturbance that comes from outside. Yes, and even if I am distracted. Yes. And so, that means I... I take it completely true and sort it later. So this word free is not really free, but it is open to what is happening.

[102:11]

That is free. Yes, you can be sure of that. I mean, with freedom there is this confusion that something should be empty, as some people think. Yes, what is empty? Exactly. It is the space where it can happen. Is it more than a container? Is it more than Bion's Containment? But when you say, some things are to be discussed later, some things I look up, isn't that also a process of evaluation? As long as it is temporary. The subject is temporary. Gerhard, I think, evaluates at the moment what is meant for now, what is meant for later. And when I think of the subject of employment, that is basically not to be done either. or in the sense of intersubjectivity, which is also more present in this space, or is constantly changing.

[103:25]

So construction and deconstruction. I find that so liberating, because, for example, the concepts of psychoanalysis, the orthodox psychoanalysis, had something very rigid. And now, through the new paradigms, or also through the new societies, so much movement is happening. That also fascinated me so much, Buddhism and Psychoanalysis have so much to do with each other, even though they are so different. It's liberating. When I hear what you just said, a thought arises in me as if it was actually about a permanent change.

[104:32]

Yes, so to take a reference, a possible, so to speak, place in the room and at the same time, so to speak, to come back to yourself and open the room again. Yes, so this is a permanent process of change, actually never uninterrupted, never static. wo dann auch eine Bewertung drin sein kann und die Bewertung aber auch wieder zurückgenommen wird. I notice when I say that, it makes you want to do it. Yes, I also mean liberation. If you went to school, then I think it is incredibly important or only such a good therapeutic work is possible,

[105:38]

and I work with children and small children and parent-child interaction, that means a lot in the pre-language, or rather in the pre-language, and that is something that is automatically ingrained in the individual. In a little further, so implicit, we only have 90% implicit, it's just a disease, psychoanalysis, but it's a liberation. where you address the pre-language area, does that make a turn back to what Rebecca Roschi said about Spine, Throat, Column? So for me in the work that I look at what the patient says with words,

[106:46]

or when this pre-lingual area begins, where sometimes it is only audible over the body. And then it's up to the forearms to develop or eyes, what can be there, skin doctors, sometimes it's about what's going on there or if the patient suddenly sits there like this or like that. I think you work a lot more directly with it, apparently, because it is very exciting, because the words have changed a lot. And for me it is more indirect, sometimes it is not at all to understand it with words, but somehow it is like this foreign language, something to decode or to come closer to. We are now talking about this room with a lot of aspects, and I have the feeling that what is happening is a kind of triangulation, that is, I am there and the patient is there, and the room, and if it goes really well, I am no longer there and he is no longer there, so not in the foreground, but the room and the process inform,

[108:13]

and I may hear it again, otherwise you bring it like a catalyst, what I hear there, but actually that I often feel so attached to this space and to this process, and it carries me and I have no idea, I don't think about what I have to bring in now or what is new, then I find it so right, what you just said about the desire, when I have the feeling that the process He informs us. I say this to the patients who ask me at the beginning, how do you work seriously? Then I ask them what answer they want. If I say, I don't know, then I say, I don't know. But we create that together and that informs us. What you just described reminds me of the sentence, to give in. In this change or in the dialogue or in what happens, to give in. And not to reflect so much, but to trust that what swings back and forth, that there is also something out of it. There comes a lot of energy.

[109:26]

When everything is going well, I have the feeling that we get more energy and sometimes we go on vacation. Sometimes I am at home with some people. I was on vacation even though it was the last hour. So much power has been created. It amazes me sometimes. What I would be interested in more than a question is what is the healing, what are exactly the aspects that are healing in this process? I would like to bring that together a bit. I think what can be too healthy is an open space. The reference point is, as I understood it in Jäger, and yet the individualities, the things that are different, are also there. That's how they get into a different perspective.

[110:27]

I think that's a healthy thing to have. The meaning of the individuality that I am fighting with, that changes massively when this open space is parallel. The hole in the particle, that was an 18-piece in Baker, I think, and that fits so well. When I think about what could be healing, the first thing I think about is what it is. Secondly, the Tibetans have a concept that they don't say, I have compassion, but we enter together the space of compassion. Yes, I would take that as a creation for it.

[111:30]

Yes, I think that would be the essential thing. And without love. For me, without love, I can't... That doesn't work. One of my... One of the former trainers said to a young doctor, you can only help someone if you love something out of that person. He was an old teacher-analytist and he described it like that. I would just say, without loving someone in any way, it doesn't work. Isn't there always a moment of silence that comes in? This is how I experience it when I have recognized something together.

[112:31]

Is there a now-moment, a moment of silence where nothing is being said anymore? Is there a moment that resounds again? And I experience that also when I want to place something holy on the spot. I would like to go back a bit, because I think the most beautiful first aha is the recognition of the inconsistency, so to speak. And I have noticed that it makes a big difference whether you can still feel it with your own pressure of suffering, so to speak, because that is suffering, what we are experiencing there, when they come. And that there is already a joy or a laughter about it in the recognition, so to speak, or this discovery of humour, because there are often such extreme ambivalences, which, so to speak, I also find it sometimes really hard to stand, that people want two things at the same time, but usually don't even notice it and they are so opposite to each other,

[113:48]

that this different will constantly creates a new space, which is hardly acceptable when you see these people, if you have a feeling for them. can be expressed outwardly, then usually a series or a comic is created directly, that the whole thing becomes like a hurray theater. And that is actually for me, you really have to celebrate and celebrate and always emphasize, so to speak. I would like to... to this collection that we just have together.

[114:54]

Two things. The first thing that you mentioned is this practical relationship between client and therapist. This is very general and I would like to take one more step back And what is more healing for me in the association is that there is someone who listens to the client. And I underestimated that for a long time, because language is considered normal, but there is someone who hears. and hears everything I say and gives the client the feeling that there is someone who hears, that it has arrived what he wanted to be said. And this process of formulating and, so to speak, saying it to someone and then getting it mirrored by them, that it has been heard, has something totally sacred.

[116:03]

This is the following discourse. And it really has something very essential. And it becomes clear to me again and again when in a dispute, it has become very clear to me, when two people are arguing, they are loud. And why do they become loud? They become loud because they have the feeling of not listening to me. And even louder to become even better brothers. And at some point it goes from piece to piece and it's an endless story. If one of the two would say, I heard you. I really heard what you said. Immediately this anger, this anger is gone. And it's not about... to have the right, or whatever, but the existence is what I want to be heard, and I have the feeling that I have been heard, then that is not yet the solution.

[117:13]

That is not yet the solution to the conflict, but that is an incredibly good basis. That is why creating a place where I really listen and we listen to each other is very important to me. There is the concept of intercourse for the couple therapy. where it goes one step back and forth again, so I say something, the other one listens, and he gives me back what he thinks he understands, and I answer that again, and that is like breathing, a breathing together, where this certainty, I have been heard, and also really, as people say, understood. Could I interrupt? Because I've heard it's lunchtime.

[118:18]

And I've also recognized I didn't leave enough time for this discussion. So we'll continue in the afternoon. And I think it looks like food is available here. Okay, so what time shall we reconvene? I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I just feel we will never get... Three? Okay. Can we start at 3 o'clock again? If someone comes later, please go through the door. And sit at 3 o'clock, right? And you can always go in and out during the break. So let me open this door. So not so small. Then you can go out or stay here during the break.

[119:19]

And as I said, there is food for the price of 7.50 euros. You can pay for both right away. And I'll do the checkout afterwards. I say, I'll be available right away or later before we start. So not in between, but either now in a short time or after half past three. Thank you for the discussion. I learned a lot. Wouldn't work out. Thank you. Thank you.

[120:19]

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