Zen Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, grows out of a basically oral tradition. There were several aspects of the shift from early Buddhism to Mahayana. One was the emphasis on the lay person rather than the monk. And the result of that is they had to write down the teachings. Because lay people simply don't have the time to memorize lengthy sutras and so forth. Then they tried to make the teachings accessible to the kind of practice laypeople could do. And there was a shift to this practice can be accomplished in one lifetime, not only by lay people, but also by monks.

[01:30]

And so there was a, but there was a continuation of the oral tradition within the written tradition. In other words, how do you have a discussion you can remember? Because even if the teachings are written down, they have to work through your memory. And we go back to Allen Ginsberg's, I think, charming statement, if that's typical of him.

[02:33]

Did you bother to, didn't say that, but imply, did you bother to teach the other poets anything about American prosody? He said, no, we were bankrupt, running around, seeking love. No, I mean, I'm seeking love, too. I hope you all love me and my translator. But, you know, I don't want to... Robert Bly says, public poets tend to play to the audience love, not to what they really want to say. Ah... public poets, poets who support themselves by giving public readings, tend to play to the audience's love.

[03:36]

Robert Bly said, as someone who lives as a poet through public appearances, such people play love to people and they don't? Speak so much about what they really feel. They don't talk so much about what they really feel. I think implicit in Alan's statement was a recognition, which he then tried to correct later on in his life, that our obligation is to teach, our obligation is mentorship. It's not about, oh, I'm an important, I'm a teacher. We have to share what we know with each generation. It's just natural. It's not about status or something like that.

[04:38]

So... The sense of the continuation of an oral tradition, was in a sense to develop mnemonic devices. Mnemonic devices means something that helps you remember. So, in other words, how to have a discussion that the participants in the discussion can remember it and work with it. That was one obligation. A second was how to develop something so that you can teach it. And the third was how to develop something so you can bring it into your meditation. So it can't be just in text.

[05:57]

It has to be a resource for you in meditation, in teaching, and in discussion. Meditation, discussion, and... Yeah. Yeah. So I would like us to think of our discussion as having these elements. Yeah. And so I would suggest that we might work with something like points. And not grade points, but points like the point of truth. or anyway we'll see points is one thing we might speak use and field is another or continuity is another we might take two or three things like this that are fairly simple the point

[07:01]

continuity and the field. And see if we can organize our discussion around that. Because, you know, we human beings are complex but not very smart. I mean... I mean, the complexity of what's going on with each of you is immense, but the way your mind thinks about it is quite simple. Yes, nobody can remember phone numbers of more than about seven units divided up into... So the study of what should be a phone number pattern is the study of how the mind works. So we need to work with what we can remember and then relate things to that. But it would help me to know what you remember.

[08:37]

Or... So, what I'd like to do is... I always get a little embarrassed to do sort of, you know, things like get each of you to say something, but I would like each of you to say something to me about how you understand practice or what that means to you or what this dimension that we're that's implicit in what we're speaking about means to you in relationship to you personally and to relationship to your working with clients. Then after that, I'd like to go into the ten realms and eight sufferings. It's especially for you, not for anyone else.

[10:05]

So instead of hitting the bell, I'm going to give this to you and you can, you know, ring yourself. Also, anstatt dass ich die Glocke läute, gebe ich das dir, und du kannst dich selber anschlagen, und das sind weitergegeben. And if someone doesn't want to say something, they just break the standing. Und wenn jemand etwas nicht sagen möchte, dann kann er einfach nur den Stock anschauen und ihn weitergeben. The thing which came to me now, which I can remember, or which you probably believe, was the thought to live God. And this is a thing which really comes to me very often, also in everyday life.

[11:14]

What does food mean to you, too? The one-pointedness. Working out in which step I am in my everyday life, I can see and feel this one-pointedness. And also my work. And the meeting of the three, it's really very great for me, having this in my heart. When I'm doing body work, or when I'm sitting with my own, or when I'm working with a client, Yes, and they went, and it's just, you know, well, that really carried with me.

[12:23]

So this is also glory to my practice and to my sitting. I'm very grateful for this knowledge, because it's, you know, yeah. Okay. Deutsch? But, you know, you can also speak in German easier, and then she can just tell you quietly. But if you want to speak English, I'm happy to listen. The first thing that came to me, as Richard said, was something that was close to my practice or from the teaching that we heard there again and again, because the point of the four foods, where I just got the idea in my practice, but I don't know what it means that the food doesn't reach me,

[13:44]

to feel this one-pointedness, this one-pointedness, to perceive one of these four elements, to perceive myself in the process, when I am one-pointed, to simply feel it. Then I am directed outwards, then I am in this one-pointedness, And the third tool for food is this knitting of the thread. As Richard explained to us, when, for example, I knit this string of the thread, then it is this, where in between two objects this thread is created, which always harms me, also in the physical world. That is something I consciously perceive.

[14:51]

Yes, and the awareness is the fourth point for this breathing. And yes, that is really so, that I feel that it has flowed into my old age and the awareness of these four areas. And that is a real enrichment for me, just to experience it a bit more contextually. Remember one sentence, which is very short. Just now is enough. Nice and very difficult. Just that was enough.

[16:07]

For me, in practice, the main problem is that it's lost so easily. I feel there is a place where there's a kind of fluidity or non-abiding or form that... My everyday life, I feel like it condenses so quickly in forms. One unfolds into two, two into three, and then into the tens of things. So one gets the other, and I'm totally caught up in maybe in a struggle with my partner at work. I'm stressed, and so there's desperation. I can't. I hope this kind of fluidity I sometimes can experience during meditation or deep meditation in a safe environment and that's the main problem and the main question how to get more access to this fluidity or awareness and not to

[17:14]

be driven into consciousness, and if I'm into consciousness, it unfolds more and more into consciousness. So it's just a process of being prepped more and more, I feel, in the consciousness dimension. For me, the main problem in practice is that I have the feeling that it disappears so quickly. There are areas of fluid or form, . that I sometimes experience in meditation or in sessions or in a very special environment.

[18:21]

Here I feel that I am caught in the area of consciousness and defense. When you first say, that's me and that's you, then you argue for yourself, you get hurt, you are in work and in stress, you are too much, and so on, back and forth. By the way, excuse me, since not everyone knows each other, Some people knew you might give your name each time. It's very informal in American, just first names. Yes, please.

[19:24]

Dr. Gerhard. I see so in a moment many practices in this engagement. Is practice useful in finding yourself in these tasks? Ist die Praxis hilfreich, dich in diesen Aufgaben zu finden? I notice that I really need practice to deal with other people.

[20:39]

I live in a tension of being a teacher, doing touching work, and I notice that I find it difficult And I noticed that there is a mention of doing this together, doing teaching in this sort of way. Thanks. Madhav. [...] I am very glad to be here. My practice gives me a new order of very strong experience which I have. At the moment I'm very close at new life and dying.

[21:56]

My mother is dying. My daughter is just about to give birth. This is touching me very deeply. Maybe I'm able to do it this year to come to a quiet understanding and bordering of these experiences I noticed two forms of practice in my life The one is to be really just by myself in meditation The other one is being in contact with my surrounding And I did that, it's mostly in therapy

[22:59]

And here I'm not really sure who is the teacher and who is the student. And I experience myself very often as being a student. And I notice that in order to be a learning person it's necessary to create this field together with the other person. Thank you. For us, for me, in my life, access was What I'm saying now is a mixture of reality and a desire. Alright, so I'm spectacular like the foundation of a building which you do not see but they are the faces of the whole day because I meditate in the morning

[24:59]

It's sort of collecting and the start of the day where I'm really close to myself. And in my therapeutical work, it's only in the beginning that I'm starting to integrate it with my meditation. To reach a state of concentration and not gaining. For me, there's still a question whether I am able to find the phone from my practice.

[26:17]

For many years I have gained the certainty that I'm in a flux, in a flow. This is a deep certainty and sometimes it's very easy to remind myself of this. And when I'm working with clients, it establishes itself a feeling where I can feel this flow. Sometimes there are times when I cannot remind myself of myself. It turns out it's the time where I have no clients. That's okay. Good. And what remains in these times is just the knowledge that whether I know it or not, I'm in this world.

[27:32]

But what I'm really seeking, the reason why I'm here also, is to find some means to be able to come back to this knowing. Thank you. Name? Gerlinde. Gerlinde. I'm very happy to be here. For some years I wanted At the same time, I always had to teach, so I couldn't. The present of being a mother allows me now to be here. Yesterday in discussion and also in meditation afterwards I experienced great moments of feelings of freedom.

[29:11]

This also came out of sort of the gathering. And that's what in my relationship and being bound by my child I'm not able to experience. I once wrote that in the last year my practice somehow diminished and I neglected it. But I noticed also it is a resource which I can use unconsciously.

[30:30]

And for my work, which will start again soon, I noticed that I need more practice for this. For me, practice consists most of all of two ways. Just letting go. Letting go of many and collecting, holding of the one.

[31:35]

I think that I'm doing this all day long, more or less. During the last time, I noticed this also by many of my clients and the people I'm giving education to be therapists. You noticed the same thing happening in them? Yes. I notice that they also are constantly in this kind of practice. And because you've instructed them to do so, or they've intuitively sensed it? Not from your influence, just that's what they're doing?

[32:35]

I think I see in you also this strong desire to let go and to hold on to one thing. I think I just see their effort of letting go of the many and holding the one. This was also my question of yesterday, also in this post-modern thing, because I see this letting go of the many and concentrating on one thing. And I noticed that discovering this and telling my clients that I discovered this is very encouraging for them. I also see that very often they are not satisfied.

[33:54]

They are not satisfied with themselves. So my question is, what is missing in this practice? . What do these postmodern thinkers miss, which all just let go of everything and they don't find the one?

[34:59]

I see two ways in which my practice manifests. Meditation practice, which I am doing more or less continuously. The effort in my everyday life to let this be influenced by meditation practice. This is more or less well done. And I work with my clients and with supervision groups.

[36:19]

What helps me is also what Daniela spoke about, the remembering of what nourishes me. The different aspects of this. And if it's possible to attune myself in the possibility of being nourished and to experience this, Then it's much more easy to enter with clients into this space where we can be together. Where being nourished just happened. There is a colleague who found a very useful term for this, which I like very much.

[37:32]

He calls it Well done. Just very well done forgetting of oneself. Very bad translation. And the danger in this is just trying to be too good at it. Then I start thinking, well, it depends on me. And remembering there is practice and remembering the trust in being nourished helps me to let me go in the process. I think also sessions and seminars like this are important for me for remembering.

[38:52]

For me, practice is also What practice is for me? Yesterday you said something which is also important for me. These are moments or experiences where I had the feeling the moment jumps at me. And I have to feel there is timelessness. The feelings of presence, of big presence, in contrast to what I would call the daily.

[40:10]

This is what makes me look and search. Search for what can I enter. And I think what I'm looking for is the real thing, is the real reality. In my work, I experienced that from my memory, I have the most resources to make connection with my clients. And when I'm really able to let go, that is letting go of images is easiest. and that everything that I do there, and I do what I do, I mean, I am still in my office as a therapist, but that is more of a tool to make this moment possible, or to make an approach possible.

[41:42]

and everything which i do then and i'm still doing something my responsibility as a therapist but i feel more that it's um it's a tool to make this moment happen this um being present together It practices training to stay in a certain kind of alignment. My experience is that it's easy to be torn away from this. My work as well as my practice is a training to stay in this alignment. And my feeling is that most nourishment I get for the alignment is from the shins and also from meetings like this.

[42:58]

This enlightenment is being able to recognize this process in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Since I'm practicing, I gained a lot of trust that something is growing in this. But what I'm working most with is not being present and aware. So I just found out that while sitting it's good to concentrate on the lower chakras and on the mudra.

[44:11]

Many of you said the same thing, so I'm understanding you very much. In my work as a therapist, I found a way that I can be not dependent on any school. So I'm able to allow myself to notice when my clients are in this field, which I can understand. Good evening. There are two points when I think of practice.

[45:26]

Just when I'm on my own, alone with me, The second is working with my clients, and I have more problems in the first part of practice. Practicing on my own, this is meditating and I don't do it very often. I think it would need more structure from the outside. Maybe the sheen would be very good for me, but I think I have to wait until my children are little.

[46:30]

In two years, I think. I can see that we are going for a walk or I am entering a situation where I can feel very connected with what is just there. Touches a subject which was topic here a few years ago. What happens if I don't name? They notice that your eyes are a mixture of being deeply touched and also fear.

[47:39]

Something where I'm stuck and where I can't move. won't The point of evidence that I would like to take is this feeling of being close. To take that as a point of evidence, that helps me a lot. And I know that. I know that's true. Yes, I can see that. the feeling of being nourished, where you can recognize. I can also bring it very good in my work.

[48:45]

And I notice and it also comes back to me as a feedback that in a very short time I know a lot about people and I can also share this with them. This is connected for me also with practice and with points of evidence. The second topic which I am very much dealing with is disappointment. And in German this is also the end of being cheated or something. And in German this is also the end of being cheated or something.

[50:01]

And in German this is also the end of being cheated or something. This is a process of therapy, but I see it also as a spiritual act. I would like Christina and Eric to also feel like the participants, so I'd like Christina to say something too.

[51:04]

For me, practice is a wide field. At the moment, it is a very exciting release of boundaries, where I have the feeling that everything looks at me in a very friendly way and is part of me. That is my practice right now. und in meiner Arbeit, ich habe keine Klienten, in dem Sinne, ich arbeite in der Wirtschaftsprüfung und habe natürlich auch Klienten, aber wir haben ein etwas anderes Verhältnis. Und da ist meine Praxis, diese Reduzierung, die sehr oft im Wirtschaftsleben vorhanden ist, also wirklich den anderen nur als Schablone zu nehmen, das nicht mitzumachen, also das geht so schnell, einfach nur den Zettel rüberzuschieben und zu sagen, mach mal.

[52:15]

And it's not easy for me now, after I work less, only 20 hours, to really stop there and to really perceive the other and to be present with the other. So I think in therapeutic work it is quite natural, but in everyday life it is unfortunately not so. So that's an important part of my practice. And the second part at home with the child. ist auch eine so schöne Praxis, irgendwie dieses dauernde Streben und Wollen loszulassen und einfach mich zu übergeben dem, was das Kind will, weil es einfach schön ist und weil es auch nicht daraus geht. Also einfach mich halb wollend und halb hinsinken lassen. Thank you. I think I'm sharing my practice a little too much, so I'm saying right now. It's 11 o'clock, and maybe it's a good time to take a break.

[53:50]

So it's, what, 20 minutes or half an hour? So 11.20, we come back. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, what time is lunch supposed to be? Half past 12. Maybe we can decide half past 12 or 1. But then we have to think. Yeah, I understand. So for the 11 now, we come back at 12, 20, 12.30. It should be at least 12.30, I think. 12.30 good then? Yeah. Okay. So maybe we should also tell them when we want to eat. Okay. So if we, at 12.30, we eat, so we're 1.30. Shall we start again at 3?

[54:50]

Would it be better to be longer so people could take a walk or something? Or is 3 good enough? 3.30? 4? Okay. So we start at 3 and have dinner at 6.30? Yes. That reasonable? And no session in the evening? Well, at least at first, let's just be together, you know. If at some point we want a session in the evening, we can. Oh, sure. Okay. Take a seat in here. So we might as well decide that now, too, if we eat at 8 at 6.30, 7.30, 8. So maybe have a sit at 8.30? Okay, good. Thank you very much. I think maybe... 20 minutes is too short a time to use the toilet and enjoy a cup of tea.

[56:03]

No, I don't want you to pity me because I don't know German. I mean, I think that... that there's a great deal I'm missing by not knowing German. But I mean, it is a definite choice not to learn German. Reinforced by my general inability to learn languages. But I love the silence. And I love not knowing what's going on.

[57:06]

Really, I love going to a restaurant and I don't know what's going to happen. Waiting for the meat and not knowing what they're going to come. Zander, I don't know what Zander is, I'll have it. But actually, I've learned some interesting things. There's a space between words in any language. And I've learned something about the space between words. And that space between words is similar to the space between people and between physical movements. It took me a while to get it, actually. And I think mostly it was for two reasons.

[58:25]

One is, I think this might be interesting to you, if that's why I'm telling you. I think it was for two reasons. One is Germany is so close to America that it was hard to see the differences because they're so similar, they're nuances. I know that for the most part Germans or Austrians don't like to think of themselves as similar to Americans. And whenever I talk to Germans about American faith, I always notice the worst types who I hardly know exist. And anyway, but another reason is because I learned my habits of being in a foreign culture, primarily in Japan.

[59:25]

Der zweite Grund ist, weil ich meine Gewohnheiten in einer fremden Kultur zu sein hauptsächlich in Japan gelernt habe. But now I know I, one, in various ways, but how I know I understand the language of the spaces now. Aber wie ich weiß, dass ich die Sprache dieser Zwischenräume jetzt verstehe. Because I, pretty clear, I can go into, you know, public German spaces and people think I'm German. At least if I want them to not notice me. And when I was first here, everybody knew immediately, oh God, a foreigner. And... I would be very keen to know how you do that.

[60:43]

Yeah. That they don't notice that you're German. Yeah. Well, maybe you don't believe me. But I've also discovered how to function outside of language. And one thing in Germany, you can't be helpless. It took me a while to learn that. You can't be helpless. You're not allowed to. If you go into a store, you have to act like you know what you're doing. And if you speak English, you have to speak it with authority as if they're going to understand. And Germans are very quick to admit they don't understand, but they're very happy to help them.

[61:43]

But when I first was in Germany, I'd go in, I'd be kind of this helpless little victim, and I would say, oh, God. And I was... If I'd be apologetic that I didn't know German, you know, and then I'd get the feeling, well, you should. And then I'd get the feeling, well, you should. And I'd go back and I'd speak to Ulrike and I'd say, geez, I went to the store, it was a horrible experience again, you know. But now I don't have that experience anymore. Everyone is very pleased to help me now. As long as I don't look like I need help. But it's interesting, in Japan it's just the opposite.

[63:00]

In Japan you want to look helpless and then everybody rushes to help you. And Japanese people will not admit they don't know English. And they know English, they won't use it because they're afraid of making a mistake. I think that in Japan the basic idea is that the baby is the purest form of being. So they respond immediately to helplessness. And in Germany, it seems like the adult is the superior form of being. No responsibility but being manipulated.

[64:15]

Able to be manipulated. But unfortunately now I'm losing my silence in German. Your silence? I'm losing the silence, the solitude. Because after, you could imagine, after 10 years of living here, half of each year, I'm beginning, I hear the language. So if I just have a little vocabulary, I don't need to know the grammar, I can understand what's going on. It's really interesting to only know people through what their immediate situation is and not through any kind of knowledge of the culture and language and what status is in the voice and so forth.

[65:18]

In America, I had to learn to take that all away when I talked to people. Because I immediately know what their education is and how sophisticated they are and what their background. I don't want to know that, but it's there because I know America. Yeah, a practice is a process, something like that, actually, of noticing or taking away and what you choose to notice. Needless to say, I was untouched by hearing each of you in relationship to practice.

[66:41]

And practice makes the most sense when it becomes common sense. I think, for example, your feeling of noticing nourishment or the meeting of the three is now a kind of common sense. There's the object and the person and the field and the mind that arises. This is obvious. But to say it's common sense doesn't mean it's necessarily true. There are many kinds of common sense. And when Siegfried noticed this in his own practice, this holding to the one and letting go of the many.

[68:03]

That, I would say, leads him to notice it in others. And to notice that even in others it's already a kind of common sense. But when it becomes conscious for them, it's different than when it's just implicit. What I'm saying here is this is all teaching. You can't look at human life without saying that teaching is as real a part of us as our nose, our lung, etc. And it's very important to recognize that you're going to understand Buddhism... late Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, is that it's not a description, it's not the truth.

[69:17]

It's a teaching. The teaching of emptiness is a teaching of emptiness. It's not a teaching that the world is empty. It's a pedagogical device. What's important is, if you accept the truth of emptiness, it's not that you then find the world empty. It's rather, what happens to you when you accept the teaching of emptiness? Does that make sense?

[70:20]

In other words, the teaching of emptiness means the world is not empty because it's empty of emptiness. But when you see that the world is empty, empty and empty of emptiness, your process of being is different. Your process of being is different. I don't know if this is a subtle point or not, but do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. What? Not totally. Okay. So in other words, the emphasis is on describing the world as a teaching device, not in describing the world as it is.

[71:28]

Because if you... Because what's important is to discover that description of the world which opens a person to the world but doesn't describe the world. It's disguised as a description of the world, but in fact it's only an opening to the world, which is beyond description. Great, isn't it? Yeah. To the description, more of the truth which is behind is revealed to me, is accessible to me.

[72:46]

That's the idea. But the description itself isn't the truth, but it's a means to know what you experience as true. Go ahead. In the German language, the word for reality is means what is . Yeah. And in German, . And with respect to the Germans, it's a thing. It's a gathering of people talking about a thing. So I think the German language shows that reality is something we were made by the process of . Yeah. German? In Germany, the word DIN comes from the grammatical TIN, where the people sit together and talk about something, that is, they construct something. That which you feel is behind what you believe is something which is true.

[74:04]

Huh? Yeah, OK. My picture is that the description is a new point of view, like a sightseeing tower where you can have a new view on things.

[75:07]

Yeah, right. So we make a rather arbitrary choice about what's teaching. Or there's rules about deciding not what reality is or actuality. But there are rules about how to establish teaching. And that somehow has become part of our discussion, I guess. From last night, it would be implicit, too. In other words, how do we have a discussion so we can use it in teaching meditation and discussion?

[76:08]

Yeah. So... You know, I'm... over, how could I say, overwhelmed by the brilliance of language as a human construct. One is, if you look back into language, into the etymology and so forth, You see that these folks, some of these folks at least, knew a lot more than we do.

[77:18]

They understood things to create these words that it takes quite a long time to come to as a mature adult. I talked about this in the last session a little bit. And yet it can be learned by her little son. I mean, this is extraordinary that something so sophisticated as language can be learned by anyone. And yet, as the child develops, if they develop a sophisticated intelligence, they begin to find the language anticipates their intelligence, even though they learned it when they were three or two.

[78:22]

That Buddhism or Christianity could be that successful. I mean, that anyone could learn it, and at the same time, it never lost its sophistication. Yet, for most people, these words have lost. Reality becomes something rigid and not something woven. And I think if I imagine how somebody would come to the word reality as you've described it as a putting together or weaving, And English, which is, of course, a Germanic language and all its basic words, so many of the roots of words go back to weaving. For example, order means the threads in a loom.

[79:40]

Now, I'm going to put this list of the 10 and the 8 on there in a minute. But I want to say a couple of things that will help us make sense of it. Maybe I should just put the list on first and then I'll... Is this art or it belongs to the house? It belongs to the house. When I used to travel by car instead of train, I could bring cushions and woodcharts.

[81:13]

Thank you. That's the kind of pillow you disappear into. It helps me in working with this

[84:33]

relationship between psychotherapy and Buddhism to imagine what it would be like if I was a therapist. And I think you sometimes tend to go more toward Buddhism and I go more toward therapy. In our conversations at least. But anyway, it helps me, Phil, let me tell you how I would do it if I was a therapist. And I'd actually have to, I'd see people quite a lot who for some reason think they should see me and they call up and they make an appointment and then I sit with them, a bit like being a therapist. Good part of the time, the problems are psychological, not spiritual.

[85:39]

And this is one of the problems with practice in the West. Das ist eines der Probleme mit der Praxis im Westen. By the way, you two were at the session and inevitably, you were at the recent session, yeah. Inevitably, I'm going to overlap a little bit with some things. I hope you don't mind. But one of the problems I think we have in practice, and probably maybe some therapists have too, is distinguishing between what's spiritual experience and what's psychic and psychological experience. And I think the problem is that we don't have a capacity for, our capacity for both is such that they get mixed together.

[86:43]

Anyway, if I was a therapist, generally what I do when somebody comes to see me is I try to usually see them in situations that make them feel comfortable. Though occasionally I see them in situations that make them feel uncomfortable. But mostly I choose situations that make them feel comfortable. But I think if I decided to be a kind of Buddhist therapist, What I would do is I'd have a divided waiting room. Which one half of the waiting room would be a regular place with magazines and things and the other half would be with some sort of division would be a zendo.

[88:14]

And probably I'd have the opening between the two, a door, but maybe no door, but just a space, so you could feel the two different spaces. Then I'd give my clients a choice. First I'd see them from the regular waiting room and in the most usual way. At some point, I'd give them a choice and say, would you like to choose a maybe absorptive therapy? The best translation for the word meditation in Zen is absorption. So I might call it absorptive therapy.

[89:24]

We have a new school of absorptive therapy. There's so many new schools around, we might as well make one, right? Okay. And if they chose to be an absorptive therapy, then I would suggest that they always come 10 to 20 minutes early to their appointment and sit in the other waiting room. And then I would start out the sessions for those who chose absorptive therapy. I would say that every meeting starts out with eight minutes, perhaps, of just sitting together without speaking. And it ends the same way. And the charge is the same for the silence as for the talking.

[90:25]

There's no reduction for silence. And I would treat Buddhism and psychotherapy as siblings, not as the same thing. Yes. And I would be quite formal about this so that they really did do the eight minutes in the beginning and eight minutes at the end as a routine, not as something, oh, now I'm meditating. Yes. And I would try to divide, I would try to look at what practices within Buddhism are essentially psychological practices.

[91:39]

And there are a number. For instance, following a thought to its source. Or recapitulation. Meaning to take some period in the past and go over it in detail. Or clearing your psychic space. Now, then there are practices which can be a... Therapeutic exercise, that's what they look like, but in effect they're Buddhist practices. For example, if you gave the person the exercise of listening to the tissue of sound, You would just say, during the absorption periods or meditation periods, I would like you to listen to the continuity of sound.

[93:00]

Okay. And we could discover, we could make even today probably ten at least exercises which could be useful psychologically, but the hidden part would be to teach somebody something about Buddhism. And I'm using Buddhism here to mean Buddhism as a teaching, not Buddhism as a religion. Okay. Now, the word dharma, which Buddhism could just as well be called dharmism, basically means to notice particularities.

[94:21]

Dharma means that which can't be further reduced. So a monk in the tradition trains him or herself to notice only particularities and never generalities. Now, let's just accept it at that level first without trying to understand in detail. To notice particularities and not to notice...

[94:59]

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