I can ignore the formatting, but I can't take it all away. So it's stored in my own storehouse consciousness with all this formatting of ego and identity and my story from childhood all in there. And I can function pretty much again, ignoring that, working in the way I've learned to work. But when my own story comes up, and it's important for me to mature my own story, or when my dreams deal with my experience of the level of story, comes up with all this formatting attached, which I could do more work on trying to put it together. Does that make sense?

[01:13]

So it's something that actually Zen and I think Buddhism doesn't have much tradition on what to do with it because I think Asian people are actually a little different. So there's ways in which I can live in which is unimportant. But when I engage my story with others, it becomes important. And I went through this immense crisis in San Francisco in 73. And part of it why I said I was a casualty of Zen as well as a product is the kind of person I became through intensive practice over years didn't fully utilize my story And I became a person who could interfere with other people's stories very powerfully and didn't know, didn't really have experience that that's what I was doing.

[02:36]

In other words, I had a very strong influence on other people and a role in their lives. And at the same time, I didn't know... how I was affecting their story. And I think this is the very edge of where Buddhism in the West are having, what's going to happen? We don't know. And there's no answers, I don't think. So I think we really do have to bring together these tools of mindology and psychology when we're using both approaches with clients. And we also ourselves have to come to understand yogic space or identity much more intimately.

[03:43]

Because yogic practices give you an ability to contact people or relate to people outside your ego and outside your ordinary way of perceiving what you're doing. Denn die yogische Praxis gibt einem jetzt die Möglichkeit, mit Leuten in Beziehung zu treten, außerhalb jetzt dieses Egos oder der Persönlichkeit, wie man sonst eben sich Leuten gegenüber verhält. And we don't have much experience in... We don't have any expectations of that. We don't know what it means, and we interpret it to mean something else. Und wir haben da also nicht genug Erfahrung, und wir interpretieren das so oft... But the more you have this familiarity with yogic space, you can not only know the vocabulary to produce it in yourself, you can induce it in others. And if you're a powerful person but an amateur, you can induce it in others without knowing what you're doing.

[05:08]

I don't know if this is interesting to you, but I'm bringing up questions that I have about it. Okay, that's all I'd like to say for now. Yes. this yogic space. For instance, you could create a feeling of interior openness, which would open them to all kinds of a rush of stuff, or a feeling of a loss of ego, which could be terrifying. They could immediately panic right afterwards. And there's ways of dealing with this which Peter mentioned some, how do you let yourself out into this space and keep an elastic attachment back to something that you can feel you can come back to as home base?

[06:18]

So, developed, adept practice in a monastic situation or in a closely observed situation teaches you a whole bunch of different gummy bands that you can use Until you can finally let go of them and be the field itself. Your sense of location becomes the field itself and eventually emptiness. So the Parasthandas are taught as five gummy bands which help you get free of ego. What did you say last? Help the ego transform? So that you can be free of ego. And you can use these instead of ego as a way of locating yourself.

[07:36]

But then eventually you can throw them away too. But you always use them again. Okay. Something else. I'd like to come back to anger you talked about, to go to this anger. In my experience, I find that somehow when I come to anger, it doesn't really help me. Maybe it's because I try to see there's the wrong energy, the wrong part of the body, and I try to re-channel it. Yeah, I think that's actually a difference between Zen and Tibetan Buddhism.

[08:54]

Do you want to say that in Deutsch? I have learned that when you take an egg, for example, and you put it in your mouth, that you have to put the egg in your mouth like this. For instance, by the new parabola, say, we're asked for D and D, where you can experience the anger.

[10:02]

In this, there's a picture with the identification, the rhythm. The architect can say, we're asked for D and D. It's not angry. It's a picture. Yeah. It's not angry. It's not angry. It's a very good example. It's a very critical aspect of enlightenment. Thank you. Well, in Greek Buddhism, you could do something like this. I spoke about it again. You can say that in Greek Buddhism, we visualize, for example, the form of a tantric doctrine, an archetype, that appears in the Eastern world, but not really in the polytheistic world. and I thought that it would be a good idea to do something about it.

[11:05]

I thought that it would be a good idea to do something about it. I thought that it would be a good idea to do something about it. Well, from the point of view of Zen, I comment on this. What I've been telling you about practice, Really, at the level at which I'm talking, assumes you're sitting every day. I think if you're not sitting every day, maybe it's even a little dangerous, these things.

[12:07]

Because you can have a sense of them, they're familiar to you, and then you try to bring them in to your life, but they're brought in in an inconclusive way at mixed levels. But the advantage of practicing meditation every day or some kind of, even if you don't have much time, some kind of way of entering the meditative space until it's habitual every day. As you really do create this interior consciousness and background mind, which allows a lot of stuff to have space. In that space, we would usually work with anger several different ways I mentioned.

[13:18]

Because the larger picture in Zen, and Dzogchen too, I believe, is this unfabricated, uncorrected state of mind. So you don't want to do things like move this to here and so forth. You want that moving to occur by the moving itself doing it, not you intending it. So now wisdom can be technically and functionally defined as the sense of identity is emptiness. Which also means your sense of continuity in this reality is emptiness.

[14:27]

But that also means and presupposes the ability to move your sense of identity and continuity to different places. Into your body, into your hara, and so forth. Or into your feelings, or into your emotions, or into your conceptual thought, and so forth. That ability to move is presupposed by this definition of emptiness. But the question is, who does the moving? You, or does moving or wisdom do the moving? Okay, now I can give a talk with you and I can speak to you. Now the chakras, from the point of view of Zen, are primarily a sense of where you can locate yourself.

[15:30]

Although they're not medically so easy to identify, it's quite clear it's very hard to have a sense of identity in your left shoulder. Now you may need some bioenergetics to work it out, but it's unusual. But you can feel a sense of location here or here or here. The chakras are sort of where you can begin to feel a sense of vitality and identity or continuity. So now the question is, when I'm speaking to you, which chakra should I speak to you from? I can put my attention here while I'm talking to you or here or several places.

[16:43]

And I can speak to you with a feeling of nourishment coming to me and continue with that feeling of nourishment. And when I feel the nourishment isn't there, I stop talking or do something else. And I can change that feeling of nourishment depending on where I feel I'm speaking from. Or whether I'm emphasizing the field of my voice or those particular words. Zen practice very much emphasizes, let those things happen according to the situation, don't so much try to do it. So the kind of thing Florian mentioned, would be a third stage of teaching how to deal with anger.

[17:50]

Which is to, after you've been able to get inside it, then to transform it and not transform it. Or to move it somewhere else in your body, etc. Now, the tantric side of Zen practice, maybe that's what I should have said, teaches you how to move these things. But the big picture of Zen practice is unfabricated mind and you don't interfere, you don't do these things on you. You let wisdom direct you, or situation direct you. Oh, that was quite a lot to say, I'm sorry. But you know, it's interesting, if you get into these questions and you guys are... You know, seriously thinking about them, the detail in which you get in them, it's like shifting from architecture to carpentry and then to cabinet making and then to, you know, building a tree or something, you know.

[19:14]

Now, I talked with Gerald a little bit at the break time to think about, again, how we should do this. Because from my point of view, I'd rather just listen to the discussion. Because I learn more and get good ideas. But at the same time, you guys can meet together, or some of you can meet together as often as you want without me. So I have to think about, is there something I can be useful in in the discussion? So what we talked about is maybe just having a rhythm or a pulse of having discussion for a while, and then maybe I can try to talk about some of these things from the point of view of Zen practices I understand. And if you have ideas about this, questions about this, for instance, how this moves in this direction toward the non-graspable and this direction toward the graspable,

[20:37]

and how this is a particular kind of loaded consciousness that's developed through feelings, perceptions, And this consciousness is specifically not awareness. So if those kinds of things we can discuss, it's fine. So now we're supposed to have lunch around 12.30, right? So why don't we sit for five or six minutes and then... Coming up, when I was on the way here, I met the old account in the halls.

[21:52]

I think he met you too. He said, I saw your friend in her purple gown. And he said, he was closing the doors. And he said, I guess he just had a visit from the friends of European castles or something like that. And he said, they think this is a museum. He said, I think worse in the United States of Europe, you know we're imitating America, he said. I know what he thinks of America, so, you know. You know, in the United States of Europe, I think they'll mix this up with Disneyland. I'm glad we can have some discussion now of what we did before.

[22:59]

I like him a lot. He's great. By the way, a friend and acquaintance of mine, Hans Peter Doerr, who's a physicist, and David Finkelstein, who's a mathematician, happen to be here today, so they're joining us for a little while. Okay, so what should we talk about? Well, he's a person in relationship.

[24:46]

OK. As you mentioned before that in the morning, that when there's something happening and you're sharing right to the person, and this might be all it needs for therapy, And this is probably the case also when there are no therapy going on. Mm-hmm, that's right. To get in, this is going on. And most of the time, I miss this in my own life. That I feel like I need something I could pose on at the beginning of the text to remind me that I'm sharing a stage with a person now. Yeah.

[25:47]

Set your alarm clock on continuous ringing. You want to say that in Deutsch? It is concerning, but people keep asking about it. [...] Well, I don't want to just respond to that, because I'd like us to have some discussion, and then we can see about... Because, particularly, it's not good to ask... I mean, I don't know the answers to these questions.

[27:21]

I'm just participating with you, so... Thank you. David was involved in this. As a therapist, do you feel sometimes more contact with your clients than you do with your friends? Sometimes my arrangement with friends is don't go too deep.

[28:43]

Let's do some superficial things. If I go very deep with the client. But is it also true that with your clients often you couldn't have dinner? But... I don't know how much this question about... I mean, we can talk also about what we discussed earlier, but I don't know how much this question of interpersonal relationships has to do with the relationship between psychotherapy and Zen practice, but something, certainly.

[30:10]

Are your relationships with your therapists, I mean, is your relationship with your clients, is it more interactive or less interactive or one-sided or is it safer? Yeah, it's just difficult. Because in the earth energy, it can't function, the relationship. You have control. There is an element of control. I mean, I can more or less decide how much I get involved, how much I can be touched, what I want to be touched. Yeah.

[31:14]

Is there a problem in becoming therapists for your friends or starting looking at your friends as if they were clients? No? It also happens when you're not a professional theorist. When you're first starting, it probably happens more than when you're... that I try to avoid successfully, I believe, most of the time. And yet, the way I perceive it is to my psychotherapeutic audience. So I don't tell them how to, you know, I don't ask them to work with it in any way, but I do it by mistake, see how it fits one certain psychological

[32:33]

model, or a mother, and I can't do anything. It's always like, yeah, I can interpret it in a psychoanalytic way. Sometimes it's a psychoanalytical subject then. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh. Oh. Mm-hmm. [...] So, there's more permission in the seminars. So, there's more permission in the seminars. So, there's more permission in the seminars. By the way, you have permission not to behave, as far as I'm concerned.

[33:37]

Well, one of the people who've been living longest at Crestone, the center where I live He is a psychotherapist and used to earn his living in Germany for years as a therapist. And I suppose this is one of the main differences is that The interactive relationship of the therapist and client is really not present in Zen practice. Anyway, I'll come back to a couple of things, but I don't want to get involved.

[34:50]

The last time I talked, and I'd rather have more discussion. Yeah. There are a couple of parts of our mind that we experience in our dreams, and sometimes in extraordinary circumstances, where our brains have been shifted in our thoughts about beings. You also talk a lot sometimes about this post-traumatic stress, and the possibility to shift into this post-traumatic stress. For instance, if you work on a problem or you want to experience something of your past, or a particular experience, and you want to talk about something, then you can talk about it. Well, again, if the questions are all directed at me, we're not going to have any discussion.

[35:52]

But in short, yes, but maybe not the way you think. Yeah. Yeah. One thing we spoke about in the morning is the world which is translated with sin as faith. Sense field. Sense field. Yeah, the sense field. Oh, it's sense field. Sense field, but that's... If I hang that, does that mean that Emotion, not just, there's not only the emotion, but a lot of learning behind, below. Did I get that? Yeah. Well, maybe I have to... A sense field is... The idea of it is that, and it's a crucial one, is that...

[37:11]

There's the object, there's the procedure, and the object of perception. Okay, it's a little bit like the sense of perceiving, knowing that you're angry. and shifting and perceiving the field of anger. Now, I can't explain, I can't, I mean, these are just words, of course, right? And they're ideas. And I think we have to be careful that on the one hand ideas allow us to see something.

[38:14]

But then the idea also becomes what we see. And there's a danger in turning it into a real thing that you see. Rather than a way of seeing. So I may talk about a distinction between awareness and consciousness, but we don't want to turn that into real entities. It's a way of seeing something. So if I use the... The word field in this way, it's again mainly a way of seeing.

[39:17]

Which, but using the word as a kind of guidepost, it opens up into something more than the word describes. Okay. If I can give you a feeling for what I mean. The most simple... One of the most simple practices in Zen is to... Basic practices is to hear your own hearing. Okay. And we mentioned that yesterday. Okay. So you've got the hearer and the object... that you're hearing. And when you're when you're the formatting in your perception emphasizes the bird's song a particular kind of consciousness is present.

[40:18]

In other words, every object of perception creates a field of perception. Now, there are some early Buddhist schools that say there's no, if you take away that there's a... Consciousness arises only when there's an object of perception. But later Buddhism and Zen and Chittamatra or mind-only or Vishnuavada school emphasizes that, yes, a field of... consciousness arises when there's an object of perception. Yes, but if I take this object away, I can still retain the consciousness or concentration that was present when the object was there. What you've done then is you've made the field of perception an object of perception.

[41:46]

Okay, so now you can have a field of perception which doesn't have an object of perception other than itself. This is a significant difference in emphasis between early Buddhism and later Buddhism. Of course, it's always true, but how you emphasize it and use it in teaching is different. Okay. Now, in this field of perception, which is still there, you can bring an object back up into it. And the way you perceive this is now different because you're perceiving it from the field of perception rather than as an... Do you see what I mean?

[42:53]

In other words, when you observe... Okay, so I create an object, I create a consciousness, a field of consciousness arises with this object. Okay. Because you learn to work with and retain in your body and mind non-graspable feeling, you can take this away. And then I can take something else and put it into the field. Now the way I observe this is different than if this had created the field perception. And I can observe it with... I study it without being engaged in it in the usual way.

[43:59]

And in a simple sense, you could say developing the concentration is shamatha and studying it from the field is vipassana. But doesn't the second object also create a field? And do these two fields kind of intermingle? Yes, of course. Well, it depends on how you let it happen. So I can actually concentrate on an object from the field without actually creating a field from this new object? You create a different kind of field because you have a different starting point, we could say. Well, I mean... Sure. Okay, so say that you... There's beautiful trees here and many flowers. And you look at a particular flower.

[45:19]

And you can enjoy the flower, of course. But it's very hard to say why you enjoy it. In fact, those questions don't apply to it. But instead you can let that flower and say that you like the rose differently than the pansy. From the point of view of Zen practice, the rose actually creates a certain kind of consciousness. In a way, you start letting the rose speak to you.

[46:20]

But you don't try to think about it. The feeling that you like it, in other words, you transfer from the rose to the feeling that the rose gives you. then you can look around at the world with that feeling it's not tied to the rose anymore so you could have a rose consciousness now I don't know if you're a mathematician if certain equations give you a certain state of mind which you can say oh now that's the state of mind of that equation and I can bring it over here and look at this equation Okay, so when you are hearing these birds, and you start hearing yourself hearing, what you're doing is not only beginning to shift from the object of perception to the field of perception, to continue the kind of vocabulary we're trying to develop,

[47:47]

You're also educating your interior consciousness. Because the more you hear and see with a field of perception, you open up or awaken your interior consciousness. So you could begin to hear your client that way, perhaps. And the experience is often that you are hearing the bird inside. You become almost transparent to nature that feels things are passing through you. And this is considered a kind of mystical experience or something sometimes. But from a technical point of view, it can be developed by taking your sense of location out of the object of perception and moving it to the field of perception.

[49:00]

Now, you can notice this if you're, say, having, the only example I can think of that makes a difference is, say, you're sitting in a coffee shop with some people. And while you're talking to somebody, there's a song going on in the restaurant, some music. People who meditate will tend to, while they're talking, be hearing the music simultaneously and bring even words of the music into the conversation. And you can notice with non-meditators, usually, if you try to do things like that, they don't know what's going on. They don't know where this information came from. Because the person who's meditating has begun to get in the habit of just hearing the field of hearing and not limiting the consciousness to what the other person is saying.

[50:15]

So how this relates, I suppose, in a sense, to what you brought up later about interpersonal relationships? We're now talking really about developing the fields of the jnanas, including mouth and and proprioception and smell and hearing. Again, so we get our sense of identity out of our eye vision, our eye consciousness. So you begin to feel a proprioceptive field right now. But again, it's not a... Anyway.

[51:29]

So that each person has his own field of several different kinds of fields. So this room is a field that we've generated. And each person is a field. And that field is manifested depending on the person's emphasis. So there's lots of practices like bare attention. As I said, you just look at this for a moment and stop. Usually in Buddhist practice, there's a moment, Zen practice, there's a moment where you stop all the time with a feeling of completion.

[52:34]

So you break the continuous running of conceptual mind. So again, if I pick this up I feel the coolness of it. And that's one complete action. Then I pick it up, it's another one. And I do each thing completely. With a feeling of completeness. That's complete. And those little stops allow a feeling of the different feels that each person is. So I don't want to get into this so much, you know. But there's three forms of compassion which are taught. There's various ways in which there's teachings about how you relate to people. And one form is you have compassion for the person's ego.

[54:08]

Just how they're existing right now. And with a sense of... Anyway, that's one. The second is you have compassion for the stuff of them, the physical stuff of them. And that includes the skandhas and the vijnanas and so forth. And so that sense of compassion is of interacting with them as equals on that level. So in this sense you're just relating to the stuff of them and with the feeling of the skandhas, perception and so forth.

[55:10]

So in a way you're relating to them now outside their ego. And the third form of compassion is for the unseen. For emptiness. For their unacknowledged history as an enlightened person. So there's various teachings like that about how you relate to people. And part of the reason for the practice of these things, like the six paramitas, is that actually not only is a way of relating to people, but it's also a way of developing for yourself this merging of interior consciousness and exterior consciousness.

[56:20]

So each person you meet is the way you realize yourself. And so the bodhisattva vow essentially means each person you meet is the way you realize yourself. How you awaken each other. And a great deal of patience is needed in this because it's so unsuccessful all the time. For yourself anyway. So that's anyway a little bit of this. But all these things are interwoven so that like this shift to the field perception is interwoven with the ability to perceive people in three forms of compassion.

[57:27]

And I think for most people it would be hard for them to pay much attention to these things. But for therapists, there's a real opportunity. Because you're sitting day after day in an interactive situation with people where these things are happening. I want to avoid doing this, getting so... See, if I give a little talk like I did last period, it starts... you know, it starts that as a habit.

[58:30]

So I'd rather, can we have some more? How can I avoid this? This morning we avoided it pretty well. Yeah. I didn't get all the same. So I just want to ask you. You said, well, compassion, there are three ways of compassion. The last one was emptiness, and the second one was compassion. The stuff of you, the physicalness of you. Ego. The person's ego and the suffering of the ego and the attachment and so forth. Yes, yeah. Well, the teaching of the five skandhas is that everything can be included in the five skandhas.

[59:54]

And the only thing not included is ego. Because you can look at something, you can observe or experience everything that's humanly possible in one of these five categories without having the idea of ego. But both this and ego are just a way of organizing your perceptions. So I think that for us Westerners we actually probably practice, we'll develop so we're shifting from a particular Western kind of ego to more of a skanda way of perception to more of a spatial or emptiness way of perception or presence.

[61:20]

And presence, you have presence, the skandhas and ego and we'll actually learn how to play this scale. because you definitely have to have an ego as a way of functioning. But the question of how you mature your ego or how you mature your story and also practice Zen is one that's extremely important and not clear exactly how that should be interrelated. But I often ask people, suggest that people go to see psychotherapists because it actually often is the point that people can't use Zen or practice enough to get through their own story or work through their story or mature their story. Yes, so where should I start? The whole thing? As Westerners, we are now moving from an ego or perception with the help of the ego, now in the direction of perception with the five skandhas or the organizational form of the five skandhas, to teaching.

[62:32]

And what was that? Was that the C afterwards? To mature your own. I mean, I think the reason I'm using the word mature is it's not enough just to understand your story or see it, you have to mature it and have a situation that matures it and develops it. And I see people who go, and our expatriates say, in a very different culture, like Japan, And they love it and they have a great deal of freedom there. But they have very little real interaction with people.

[63:33]

And they come back after 10 or 15 years and it's clear their story hasn't matured, hasn't developed much as people. So how do you help someone mature their story? Is it the interaction with you or...? Is it the interaction with you, or the interaction with your life, or both? What I feel is that my interaction with the gift First thing that pops into my mind is that my interaction helps the person to really deal with his own story and the very important thing is to actually to grieve about the losses within the story.

[65:15]

To grieve with them. Yes. And something comes back to you. If I really help a person to go through a grieving process and to complete that and to kind of finish up certain things, then this person moves on through this experience and then something really comes back to me and helps me. What comes back to you? Yeah, I participate in a movement, some sort of movement comes back to it.

[66:27]

It's a psychic movement. Anybody else have any comments along these lines? You know, I constantly get doubt that I'm saying, close it, but not the end. Hopefully this... Would you say that, like I said, some of these things increase or to educate your interior space, that grieving with somebody increases your own ability to know a kind of grief space or increases your own ability to feel things? Could you say that, for example, if you help someone to mourn or work with someone, that this opens up something in you, so to speak, that could be called a mourning room? Yes, I think every time, to put it concretely, every time when I tell someone to do a mourning work, then they open up, I think, in my heart.

[67:31]

Every time I help somebody with a grieving process, something inside opens up and a kind of space increases. It seems to me that this grief is also available to me personally. And then if I then look back to myself or go back to my own experience, it's a kind of task for me to really make this griefing space also available for myself. Mm-hmm. Whenever I enter the spaces of other people and work there, I always have to get out of there and get something back for myself, which I then work on. I think we organize somehow also our perception of our inner space also in a certain way.

[69:17]

And through the interactions with other people, sometimes different layers, both in our personality and touch, that's how we experience something, through the connection to other people. I think the people with a weak ego, sometimes they could not put questions about their... in their account cards, they could not even ask questions. Somebody with a weak ego, they can't even ask questions about themselves. So, I mean, they need a therapist to basically sort the basic stuff out, to give them a direction in which direction to start working. Concretely, a woman who was born in a funeral home, and the nuns were about to give birth, and this woman was kept in the coffin for at least two months.

[70:50]

The contact with this woman gave me a lot of curiosity. I have never experienced such a thing in my life. Or, for example, to contact spaces of kind of extreme loneliness. I remember working with a woman who was born when she was in the seven months and her mother died under the birth and she spent two months in an incubator. And working with this woman, I experienced a loneliness I would have never experienced otherwise. It's not so... I don't want to know... It's on one hand it's almost like I don't want to know about this and at the same time it's a very enriching experience. So how much of being a psychotherapist is a way of also maturing yourself? Because in Zen we say the teacher is actually the relationship between the apprentice and the teacher.

[72:07]

There's no teacher. It's something that's generated between the two people and they're both responsible for creating the teacher or creating the teaching. Okay, so when you're with a client, what was that? Yeah. So when you're with a client and this person has a weak ego or is in some pretty strange spaces or whatever, what do you use to guide you? Likes and dislikes?

[73:17]

Lacks. Absences, yeah. Otherwise, there is a danger of being attached to pain, or working out of the deep attachment to pain. And if I can reconnect to this vision of what a person may be, may come, this helps me to... Yeah, this is guiding. What does that mean? That the potential of the human being, which I have discovered, will work with him. Otherwise, it is necessary to cover the door with a window.

[74:20]

And the vision of Jesus and what he is, what is in development, what is to become of this man, for Jesus, is not clear. So how do you come to this vision? I think it's actually my personal history, my concepts, what I have learned. So my landscape, my person, is very much influenced by this.

[75:26]

Because I can only perceive outside what I have inside, I think. I think the most simple base for this is the person feels accepted by the therapist. The person is free to explore its own potentialities, its own resources. So you don't take a critical stance to the client. You create a field of acceptance. It's a base. Yeah, it's a base, yeah. And it's very, I remind myself all the time not to judge, because judgment is always here. So it's just to be conscious and then leave it again. And to work out what the bishop, the client is. From their side. From their side. Interesting. What were you going to say?

[76:42]

Especially with people who can't articulate what's going on, I use my own body as a resonating instrument to help them find out what's going on. How do you do that? You can feel it. And then maybe I say what I feel or what I ask. That makes it different what I do with it. Yeah. And how much does theory come in? I mean, you're from different schools, you have a theory of what's going on with the people. How much does that affect what you do? Or is it mostly intuitive? Both. Both. So the more mature therapist is one in which theory and intuition can emerge. I think also the field aspect is important, not only like in Zen practice, but to actually open oneself up to the field both I think the client and the therapist create and then kind of just feel in yourself just as well as the client what's going on, have an interaction.

[78:26]

Now isn't this into transference and counter-transference and things when you do that? A field, not necessarily, no. I think the real basic point of therapy is that it is always the art of relating. It has to do, of course, with transference and non-transference, because you work on a As an example? As an example through all your categories and experience with formal relationships in this specific situation. But I think there is not anything outside that kind of ability to relate to each other and healing. I think it has only a chance to happen when it happens synchronistically. Synchronistically. It happens on both sides.

[79:29]

Otherwise it's not therapy, it's many pedagogies to teach someone how they can do this or that. But therapy, basically, I think this has to do with the art of relating. This is what I'm missing actually, maybe in Zen, but in this specific situation with Luke, because everyone is sitting in a kind of solipsistic space, which on the one hand I find very useful, sitting here on the laboratory. And it's always me. I cannot go away. I always come back. It's a process of always coming back. On the other hand, What from my experience with Zen and the students of Zen and people who are interested especially in different kinds of spirituality, traditional schools and new schools is that they are missing a very important point because

[80:38]

They never were really true to what we would call projections and what we would call shadow aspects. So sitting within is meditating and having all that stuff going on at different levels seems to me quite useful. But I tell sometimes that it is going deeply enough that someone gets a real insight into his character structure. This is one thing, knowing who you are and where you come from. On the other hand, that field where we learn from each other mostly. Because it's so easy to say that's on the other side, you don't have to take it very carefully. And this is actually what I'm using in the meditation process. And this is something I think is where therapy, which deals a lot around that, being able to read it and how we read it, and what drives us to include that a little bit for Westerners into the way

[81:51]

as a support for better meditation. I would like to add something in the direction of the depth of English. So I presume that the depth... Subtude? Subtude. And now subdued. They have cooked too long. That's my experience too sometimes. Somebody who's quite developed in practice has very little resources in actually dealing on the relationship level with other people. And in Zen practice I think the dangers are that you can actually bypass this territory quite successfully. Yeah, I think it is a problem actually because you can bypass the certain things because you can learn to function around it rather than through it. What's the difference in emphasis?

[82:53]

Mm-hmm. The question is whether you take your time to stay with the being before you as a child. I would say you stay with the feeling and you stay with the expression.

[83:54]

I mean, can I say something extreme? On some level, I don't think there's no way not to express a feeling. Even if I stay with the feeling, I can, in the Sesshin, I can realize my body smell changes. And I think that already is an expression of my feeling. And if you come to Sesshin, like on the fifth day, enter the Sendo, I mean, sometimes it's just like amazing what's going on there. Or like, I mean, how my posture changes. changes in context to what I'm... I mean, is it possible not to express a feeling? Yes, go ahead. Express nor repress. Yeah. So what's the difference between On your body or, yeah.

[84:58]

Well I don't know, it's a little hard for me to answer, I'd have to think about it a bit, but the sense of staying with the feeling, this is also staying with the expression, that staying feeling stays present. But we often say, for instance, if somebody's angry about something, I suggest to people to tell the person they're angry. When you choose to express your anger, you can beat a pillow if you want or something, but you always express what you feel. But you might try to make this anger more interpersonal by saying, you know, what you just did makes me feel very angry. Or you feel it and let the other person feel it in other ways.

[86:20]

But not in a punishing way, like you're punishing the person by being... Yes. Yes, I would like to add, for example, that I notice situations, I am annoyed, also the concrete person, but because of my self-care I know that this is such a simple situation for me. So there are several ways of sleeping. And in such situations, Is it something else? Is it with the anger? So just stay. Yes, I don't know. And this is right now kind of a crucial point for me, I mean, to find out the different kinds of angers.

[87:31]

For example, I can experience a kind of anger where I clearly know, I mean, this is a kind of critical point. I mean, through working on myself, this makes me angry a lot. There are several people growing up who have this experience with me. So then it's easier to kind of maybe hold back and work with this. So it's not, I know it's not really the person in this situation. So it's not... Well, this interpersonal channel or the interactive channel with others, it's very hard to study in relationship to meditation practice. Because practice other than as a palliative, something that makes things better, sort of better, is at least in Zen primarily taught in monasteries. There's very little real lay practice developed in Zen.

[88:41]

Vipassana, when it came to the West, because it's so only monastic life, had to separate itself out from that monastic life and its new glue became a lot of psychotherapeutic ways of thinking about things. At least in America, Vipassana is the form of Buddhist meditation that is most merged with and integrated itself with psychotherapeutic ways of looking at things.

[89:41]

Now, the ideal of Mahayana Buddhism and Zen is to be a lay practice. That's the ideal. But it's actually thought that lay practice is too difficult. And it's been taught almost primarily in monasteries. A depth practice. And in the monasteries it's just part of the stream of the life. Very few people even know exactly why it works because it's just what they do. So the interactions that you, in a monastery you have very intense interactions among people. And then you have ways in which the mindology part of Buddhism changes the way the soup is cooked.

[90:48]

And you know, it's no way to really study this. We don't have any way to study it. I've defined it as my task for some reason, or it's come up, my task has become, Finding out how to develop an adept lay practice. But at present, I think it needs some Sashin practice and some period of monastic practice. A few months at least. My ideal, and Sukhirishi's ideal, was, could it be completely a lay practice? And that vision informs my own life. And I kind of wince at how badly Zen is usually taught.

[92:03]

And how misunderstood it is. And how, when you're practicing as a layperson, what an abbreviated sense of Zen you usually get when you're just practicing on your own. But in a sense, I can't develop this lay practice without your help. In other words, I need this interactive channel myself. So I need to practice with more people who, and I'm trying to, who are equally trying to develop an adept lay practice. You know, we all have to do something, might as well do this. Excuse me, go ahead. I'm finished. Yeah. Yeah. When you say it's necessary to have a monster practice, so why not having a very close relationship between sent teacher and mind?

[93:26]

Because the relationship to the psychotherapist is very close also. And you see it once in a week, and the influence of psychotherapy goes very deep into every day now. So why not build a similar relationship for them? You know, probably a few people only could go into a monastery, but lots of people could live a close relationship for years with the teacher, and people know something this way. Well, do you mean the teacher and the apprentice would meet like in a little room once a week or something? Not maybe the group and teacher, but have a simple close relationship like that. Yeah, well, that's the ideal. But when you have that, you actually are generating a monastic life.

[94:30]

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