I'd like at least to start with continuing our discussion. So if anyone wants to say something, I'd appreciate it. One thing you all have, I believe, is this Eightfold Path piece I wrote on it. Is that correct? You know, I was contracted to do a book about 20 years ago. The publisher reminded me of it every now and then. I told them, well, keep reminding me, it doesn't do any good.

[01:02]

Because as long as I was living in a monastic situation or teaching as much as I do, I can't do anything else but that. Actually, I produced a manuscript they wanted to publish, but I wasn't satisfied with it. About 10 years ago. I finally took the 10 weeks off with no schedule for the first time in 45 years. Oh, and I had a good time, by the way. It was fun. And the stateful path piece is a kind of footnote, a long footnote. But the book is shorter.

[02:22]

That's not quite true, but there's many things that I don't want to go into, but I have to refer to, so then there's a topic section. If you don't understand this, go to the topic. Well, one of those topics is the Eightfold Path. So it's written in the most brief way I can do something pretty much. Anyway, so if any of you have read it and find it relates to either your own life and situation in practice or working with therapeutic way with people, I'd be interested in what you think. Also, when you read this and thought about how this works in your own life context or in collaboration with clients, then I'd be interested to hear what you think.

[03:33]

Yes. I have a question that has probably been asked to you a hundred times. I would be interested in the relationship and the difference between mindfulness and vigilance. Vigilance. Or vigilance, which is the topic this afternoon. So I have a question that you've probably been asked a hundred times already, but... Really? I don't know. Let's see. I'm interested in the relationship or a difference between mindfulness and awareness. What's the difference? In the relationship. Well, there's a... There's a, let's say, a partnership for sure in everyone.

[04:45]

If we take, for example, someone throwing me a ball and I reach up, well, that's a partnership. It's part of consciousness. Consciousness saw it happening and awareness... made the calculations in effect and he catches the ball. So that's a relationship for sure. Now, I think it's probably useful to understand that there's no exact equivalent for these terms in Sanskrit or Pali. And it overlaps a number of terms in the tradition. But the trouble with using the terms from the tradition is they have no coinage, no filaments in our own language, so we don't feel.

[06:12]

And you know this. Dozens of schools and offshoots and centuries and words are used very differently in different schools and so forth. So I at some point decided to take two English words and make it cover, make it refer to our experience for the experience of those who meditate. And I tried to come to in our culture a definition of the word consciousness, for example, a definition based on how you experience mind in a big sense through meditation.

[07:13]

whether the definition will be any use to neurobiological research I don't know but I would guess it would be Because even though the definition is from the point of view of practice, and I'm only making it to help practice, It's still a definition more articulated because of practice than it would be if you didn't know practice. Okay, so since I've been thinking about this for lots of, you know, quite a few decades, I have something to say about it.

[08:31]

But I still think we're in the process of... defining it ourselves. It's our experience, yours and mine. And so, you know, I'm acutely interested in what, you know, Gunther's experience and your experience. Okay. Also, I, again, don't assume that the Buddhism of the third century is for the same kind of person we are.

[09:33]

We're acculturated a different way. We could probably be acculturated the way a Chinese person of the third century was. But I'm convinced by current real-time neurobiological research. It seems like a long answer to your question. And from my own observation, having brought up three children, lived with a lot of children, Well, two children, one in process, five years old.

[10:38]

Is that the actual brain is structured by intersubjective relationships? Our actual physical brain is structured by intersubjective relationships, primarily in the first 18 months with the mother. And then how we're acculturated further structures the brain, or certainly the use of the brain. The brain, body, mind, complex. So I'm still in the process of discovering this relationship, how to talk about it.

[11:46]

But clearly in... Okay, so from the point of view of practice, there's already an assumed relationship. but maybe it's better to call it a partnership and then you develop the relationship and so I mentioned as a sort of symbol of the first stage of developing the relationship as teaching awareness how to count. The second stage of the register is really awakening, developing, educating awareness.

[12:48]

The next would be developing awareness as the basis and support of consciousness. That would be kind of a second stage in practice. You're developing the relationship to consciousness from awareness's side. And the third stage is And the third or fourth, depending on how you put it, step would be that you extract the being from the point of consciousness. And although these are just two English words I chose,

[14:02]

to represent an attempt to articulate, understand my own experience through practice. Once I developed the use of those two words as terms, they completely map onto the traditional teaching. So, first of all, I'm saying we're developing the relationship, the understanding of the relationship. And to bring that out in more useful detail, I'll try to do today and tomorrow. But I can use Gerald's example earlier as an example.

[15:21]

Gerald said that he used concentration, one-pointed concentration. to shift from consciousness to awareness. And he then said, what he experienced was really pure awareness and not consciousness. Okay, so Now, this is a first-person account. You understand what I mean by a first-person account.

[16:24]

I'm telling what it is. There's no confirmation of it. Very traditional neurobiologists pay no attention to first-person account. They're only going to look at what their machines tell them and so forth. It's a third-person account. Subjective and not objective. But no one's going to be able to research consciousness unless you accept first-person accounts to a point. And it's set up so there's a certain amount of peer review. Peer review.

[17:32]

Do you have that phrase? I think it exists in German. Yeah. Yeah. Like, a scientist can't get something published unless his peers agree it's publishable. And sometimes the peers are wrong. But the way Zen is set up, practice Zen, practice Buddhism, With a teacher-sangha relationship of mutual understanding, it's definitely a kind of peer review.

[18:32]

It's definitely a kind of peer review. And it has to be the case, if I acknowledge somebody to teach, it has to be a kind of peer review. And it's clear I can't really have a mutual understanding of a person's experience, then I have to say, I can't be your teacher. So, although what Gerald said is a first-person subjective account, still, I think we can all, or at least I can, know what he's talking about. Now, in the vocabulary or terms I tried to establish this morning, for example, when I said that

[19:46]

I concentrated on the red triangle while I went to sleep, this makes clear that if it's the case, I did go to sleep and I did wake up, if it is the case, then intention, as I pointed out, waking up at 6.02, intention functions in awareness as well as consciousness. Yes, so I would say in the first level of looking at it, Herald generated an intention in consciousness to shift to awareness. And that's what the consciousness is good for, to make decisions, to practice.

[21:11]

But it probably, probably, a little more subtle than that, probably awareness called forth consciousness to create the intention to join awareness. And that's usually what happens, because actually research has shown that by the time you make a conscious decision, your body already knows it's going to move. So, awareness said, Gerald, use the tunnel. Gerald, use the bridge. So, Gerald made an intention to shift to awareness. So he made this intention which created a little channel of intention because intention is a bridge or a channel between consciousness and awareness.

[22:46]

And awareness drained out of consciousness, leaving discursive behind. And, you know, something like that. I think in images too. Now I would say probably it wasn't pure awareness. That's the point at which a first person or subjective account would be suspect. You can know what you did, but you can't really know that it's absolutely pure awareness. Plus, if it was pure awareness, You better not go there on the street when there might be a hole in the street.

[24:16]

Because if you do have a big hole in the sidewalk, you know, what the hell are they doing out in the street? A big hole in the sidewalk, you would fall into it if you were pure awareness probably. Then you'd say, oh, look at that. Look at all the black, black shit I can see. Whoa! No, no. This is like getting on drugs. Um, denn wenn du eben auf dieser Straße wärst und da wäre dieses Loch, und was machen die eigentlich überhaupt da draußen auf der Baustelle, jedenfalls wenn du im Rheingewahrsein wärst, würdest du da wahrscheinlich hineinfallen, würdest da vorstehen und sagen, whoa, guck dir das mal an, was ist das denn? So it's better to describe it as free of most conceptual thinking. A little corner of consciousness kept open in case there's a car coming. Okay. Wow.

[25:25]

That's a long answer. But it describes the situation. Yeah, well, you've already said something in English, so weigh in on that. Yes. I love the state of, well, maybe it's awareness, maybe it's just being, and maybe it's emptiness, but it also drags along problems. Which one drags along problems? Or they all do? . So, when I'm in this empty mind, in this emptiness, the emptiness is kind of trying to put a border around thinking and, you know, tries to keep these things away from it.

[26:43]

And it's a little bit as if it's an addiction to stay. That's your experience. Yeah, yeah. It's one of the more harmless addictions. What are you addicted to, Anthony? Good for you. Yeah, I understand that problem. Yeah, go ahead. At least I wish I understood German. Yeah, I know, but still.

[27:50]

Go ahead. So the problem is that thinking kind of seems to slow down and becomes really lethargic. Lethargic. Lethargic, yeah. And, you know, it doesn't go so fast anyway. And it's harder for me to actually think then. You mean thinking, when you're in the space of awareness or emptiness, thinking slows down? Or... Yeah. In other words, even if you aren't in so-called awareness or emptiness, just in your everyday life, you think more slowly. Maybe you're getting older. I know that's the case for me.

[28:57]

One of the Of course. You have had your own life history, of course. And you've had your own way of practicing. And I'm interested in reading your description of your yoga therapy. But from my experience, One of the qualities of realizing awareness as the primary, as the fundamental, let me say, dynamic of mind,

[30:01]

is thinking is more precise and more clear. And thinking in general becomes what I would call intuitive thinking. Thinking is more a stream of intuition rather than something that pops through. Intuition usually pops through the thought covering the consciousness. And that kind of changes, and thinking tends to be more intuitive with a rooted in intuition and flowering in consciousness. I never said that. It's something on a Hallmark card.

[31:09]

I have Hallmark cards here. It means it's a little schmaltzy. How difficult is it to bring together two ways of functioning in my experience? I'm having difficulties to put together two different ways of functioning in my awareness. Then you're thinking... And on the other hand, when I act, especially when I want to achieve something, for example, I build with craftsmen, then I get something out of peace.

[32:28]

I've made good experiences in peace and calmness and such, but then when, say, I have to deal with the people who work in my house, for example, or I have to deal with people and I need to do something, then I actually lose this calmness. Particularly when there's a kind of pressure that something needs to get done in time. I want to learn to stay at peace and to act even if I want to do something. I think it should be possible to learn this internally, that this is easy. I'd like to learn to even stay within this calmness or peace even when I need to get something done or when I want to achieve something. I do have the feeling that it should be possible. What kind of... Did you say a word? What is the learning of my awareness?

[33:39]

What is the path for my awareness to learn to do that? It's possible. And I mean, the first step is really, culturally or individually, to recognize it must be possible. And that is exactly the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism first teaching. There's suffering, there's confusion, etc. All of this has a cause. This is actually... I'll just present it in a simple way. It has a cause. And the third so-called noble truth is it can be stopped.

[34:46]

Which means in our experience, sometimes we notice we're deeply calm, very relaxed. And then you lose it. But then the fourth noble truth is the path, which is called the Eightfold Path. So that Eightfold Path, it's a prescription of how to do what you want to do. And that's why I sent it to you, actually. Thank you. Does that mean there is a state of mind in which I can stay calm and at peace while I'm acting and holding a goal? Yes, absolutely. And you know, sometimes it's forced on people like in the middle of a car accident or something like that.

[36:07]

I mean, it's so terrible. Some people are extremely calm, and they see their arm, you know, they see and they do things, and it's kind of, it's there, but we don't have access to it in normal circumstances. And there's a lot of people who do extreme sports. to put themselves in that state. And they're addicted to it. Like climbing the face of a melting glacier. You really have to have a free, calm, cool state of mind. the idea of Buddhism is you don't have to go to extreme sports right here so in more detail I'll try to come back to what you said someone else yes

[37:20]

I think that it becomes easier when I am in contact with it. And awareness helps me to unfold and develop my innate nature, my essence, and it seems like this gets easier and easier the more I'm in contact with it. so I feel in tune when I'm connected to what I call my essence okay you know you just said something

[38:45]

in German, which she translated into English. But if I take it literally, that you fully meant what you said, then you could not proceed really on the Buddhist path. Because there's no innate essence. Now, I don't... Now, I'm not really speaking to you. I'm speaking to the words you used. But if you're a practitioner and you are on the path, then you notice, you know, when I... In Zazen, our consciousness drops away.

[39:48]

I feel the presence of an innate essence. I don't deny... I mean, and you shouldn't deny to yourself that that's how you feel. But if, but so then as if you're on the Buddhist path, you examine that and you say, is it really innate? Is it really in essence? And if you come to the conclusion it's really an innate essence, which some people do, then you should practice Hinduism. But I'm really not talking to you.

[40:51]

What I'm saying is that we have to look at how we describe ourselves to ourselves. and it's very important to notice things like that and because how we describe ourselves to ourselves shapes ourselves then you want to examine such a description in the light of the teaching then would you like to examine such a description in the light of the teaching? Yes. Sometimes in meditation or in inner research I often have the feeling that I am with a field or I experience a field that is friendly, loving.

[42:06]

Sometimes in meditation I sense a kind of feeling where my feeling is that this is friendly or kind or actually filled with love. In the sense of Buddhism, is this not a last experience? Is it just a breakthrough, a breakthrough experience? Now, if I understand you correctly, in this coming from Buddhism, this is not a kind of finding the ultimate truth, but it's just a kind of feel your passing through, kind of experience your passing through. That's pretty much correct. In other words, Hey, this is good. I'm enjoying myself. I'll just speak to it in two ways. In the stages, the traditional stages, which are where the word Zen comes from, jhana, the four jhanas, which are actually borrowed from Indian teachings that were prior to Buddha.

[43:42]

One of the jhanas, we could say, is the realization of mental joy and physical bliss. And a loving connectedness. And just being alive. And that's a very important stage in meditation practice. And the development of that stage is the Sambhogakaya body, the body of bliss. But you also don't want to... This is also a kind of limitation. You also want to be free of that, but not lose it. Yeah, so there's, ideally, there's a wider accepting stage which has almost no content.

[44:59]

Neither joy, nor suffering, nor anything. But it's not negative or empty. Now, I was asked at the break, you asked me, to speak about how we meet, how we are connected with others, something like that. So at some point I'll try to speak about that and that will also bring up what you mentioned. Okay. If you ask really complex questions, you can't expect to get a full answer.

[46:02]

Unless we move in together for a while. We can find out together. We want simple questions. No, I don't want simple questions because then I'd run out of things to say. It went back somewhere. Okay, so let's have a break. A pause. And half an hour and we start again. Thanks a lot. Yes, Patrice.

[46:51]

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