Is it all right for me to call you Carmen? Is it okay when I say Carmen? Oh, okay. It's perfect. It's perfect. Okay. At lunchtime, she said to me, she's also thinking about the German words, Geist and Bewusstsein. Is that right? So we have two at least. Are there more object words in German that are used for mind or equivalent to mind or overlapping with mind? Yes. Anyway, I'm bringing it up because one is I'm interested in how you use those two words, at least, to describe the activities of mind and what distinction you make between them.

[01:11]

And then is there a kind of implied experience of mind which isn't covered by those two words. I am interested in finding out how you use these two words, spirit and consciousness, and whether there are experiences that cannot be described in this way. For example, does the word mind, the English word mind, which we tend to use in Buddhism here in Dharma Sangha Europe, does that cover a territory that's not quite covered by the two German words? Then we have the English words. And then we have the Buddhist use of the English words.

[02:16]

So I'd just like to hear first of all What distinction do you make between the two German words that overlap, I guess, in their meaning? Would anybody help me? Consciousness, I think, is something that we always have at our disposal, whereas mind somehow is not always at our disposal.

[03:21]

But Bewusstsein is, so what German word are you using for mind? Geist. Geist. So Geist isn't always at your disposal, but Bewusstsein is? That's what you said. Yeah. Well, you translated mind. You didn't say Geist. Okay. So you confused me. Okay. Sorry. Okay. But do you really agree with that? Yes, go ahead. Okay, yes. The Swiss think differently, is that what I mean? Express things differently. But I think she's right. In high German, we also would say a phrase like something comes into my mind.

[04:47]

We would say in German, etwas kommt mir in den Sinn. And not use the word Geist, but Sinn. So you have a third word, Sinn. I see. That's close to Zen. It means translated sense. Sense. Ah, okay. But also, sin also is meaning in English, depending on the context. You mean sin can be translated as meaning in English? Yes, right. Meaning comes into my mind. Oh, that makes sense. It makes sense. Okay. Something else. I mean, you must have some thoughts about this. Yeah. I'll try it in German.

[05:48]

Yeah, please. I think we have consciousness and then we have something that's the sum of all the senses. to deal with it in an obstructive way, we can desire something, reject something, so to make these things aware, I think we still have the same thing in the unconscious, We are only asking ourselves these impressions, which we also take up through the senses, or perhaps also through the additional senses, not so directly. The spirit, again, I would describe as an even less material substance, more in the sense of a frequency, or the sum of both, of consciousness and subconsciousness, what is above it.

[06:59]

And these other things, this sum of So I have sense impressions and they make me either consciously or unconsciously feel or do things like greed, hate and delusion, so I react Like that. But both consciously and unconsciously. So she would say, Geist, in German, mind, is above or bigger than consciousness and unconsciousness. What words do you have for consciousness and unconsciousness? OK. And what is the word you used for the sum of the senses? She had no particular word. Christ? God. She said that. My spirit is more the energy that comes out of the whole.

[08:20]

I think a healthy spirit would be a balance that is balanced. What is balanced? the sum of all impressions, where I can let go of something without having a loss? It's too much at once, it's very difficult, then you have to translate it. That's how I feel too. Yes, maybe you can translate it yourself. No, then it will be chaos. So kind of a healthy mind is in balance and can get these impressions but can also let them go without getting out of balance. What word do you use for that state?

[09:23]

She only said healthy mind. Yeah, but not just her. What would you say? Just more in the sense of a spirit. Okay, so geist also then means spirit. Yes. I think the spirit is something that is out of any influence. It's not working. It's not acting. It's not wishing something. It's not saying stop or I don't like this. So that's the thing about... Okay, so that's Geist. Right? Okay, so Geist means mind and also means spirit. Is that right? Okay. And the sense of it being spirit, it's a kind of receives without discriminating? Geist empfängt ohne Unterschiede zu machen, also ohne was besonders haben zu wollen oder abzuhören.

[10:30]

He wants to add some expressions we have in German. Someone who faints loses his consciousness. We don't say he lost his mind or she lost his mind. So these are different distinctions. So how would you say he calmed, his mind calmed down or he calmed his mind? What would you call this? Geist? Geist. Okay. In normal German you would not use the word Geist in such a normal description at all. We have many reflexive verbs in German, so we would say, er beruhigte sich, he calmed himself.

[11:57]

Geistreich sein. So then sometimes you'd use self, where we would use mind. Do you have more expressions? I mean, if it's just one instance, then we cannot make a generalization out of it. No, but I think many reflexive verbs in German do this. Okay. Ourself. or self? Self and sin in terms of mind, their self. It's difficult with the words around it. Yes, I can't think of any other example. Okay, yes?

[12:59]

For me it is easier to understand when the spirit is not bound to a person, rather in the sense of the world of the spirit. So for me it's easier when the word Geist is not tied to my person, so it's more like the world of mind or Geist. So even without being esoteric, one can say that a house has a good geist, like a good atmosphere, a good spirit. Wait a minute, are you finished? No, not yet, or I can deal with something, for example with 10 or Buddhism, and I come into this spirit, so I don't have the feeling that it is my spirit or that I am a spirit, but rather I go into a world with a spirit,

[14:13]

So I can, for example, practice Zen, and then I enter this particular mind. So it's not like my mind doing something, but as if I enter the world of this particular mind. But when you say, I'm practicing Zen, I'm entering the world of this particular Geist? Mm-hmm. I would like to support what Alex said. When it's tied to the person or refers to a person we say more like state of mind. And of course depending on how well one can observe many states of mind.

[15:25]

Consciousness I think it's still very much influenced by Freud's definition and is more used, like Freud. So consciousness as opposed to unconsciousness, what I cannot know or notice. Yes, but the German language is not so consistent. Yes, not too fast, not too much at once. The German language is not so consistent. There is the expression witty, actually. It's geistreich, full of mind, full of geist.

[16:30]

And this means actually just clever and not more. And it just means witty, smart. So it's really narrow, actually, in this case. Okay, yes. Was mir das schon den ganzen Morgen einfällt, ist, dass man ja auch im Christentum sagt, der Geist weht, wo er will. So what I've had in mind all morning is that in Christianity it says the spirit goes where it wants. To introduce another term in German to differentiate consciousness from Bewusstsein, the word Gewahrsein. I am a bit conscious, in contrast to consciousness, or as a fine sleeper of consciousness.

[17:33]

So there is a second word, consciousness on the one hand, and then consciousness, which expresses something subtler. Okay, yes. In Christianity we have the Holy Spirit, which is also the word Geist, Heiliger Geist, and it is transpersonal or beyond personal. So, he meant the setting with the spirit blows? So the spirit is in contrast to the body, and there is body and consciousness and unconsciousness, so consciousness is active, accessible?

[18:37]

Not too much at once, I just can't do that. Spirit in kind of opposition to body, whereas consciousness opposed to unconsciousness. Okay. So the opposite of Geist, sort of, is body. Yes. Okay. Yes, Tara? For me consciousness is in relation with my personal likes and dislikes and my conditioning. And I don't like these kinds of discussions so very much. And I would say it's my consciousness who says I don't like this so much.

[19:41]

And there is something inside me that I don't care about. So what goes away or doesn't go away. There is something inside me. who doesn't care, who doesn't mind. And I think this Well, inside me that doesn't mind is the field of mind. And I like the expression mind. So she prefers that we use mind and not translate it into Geist when we speak German. that enables something new or unforeseen for me.

[20:52]

Where I simply don't know, my consciousness usually knows what it wants, what it doesn't want or what it should run out of. And with this term mind, which I don't define so much, there is simply the place for something else to happen. So, my consciousness knows what it wants and what to expect and those kinds of things, whereas mind describes a space that is not so defined and unexpected things can come up. Okay. And another question is working in me. Because I've been asking myself whether Geist doesn't create itself all the time, again and again.

[21:54]

And if I assume that there is no original mind, Geist, What is creating itself or creating what? So it's something that always kind of falls into itself or infolds itself and unfolds itself. And I cannot locate it anywhere. Okay, so is this idea of mind as creating itself or enfolding itself, etc., is that in the word Geist or is that from your practice experience?

[22:56]

Is that in the Deutsch word Geist? This is my practice experience and therefore also a cultural concept. So this is not in general in the word Geist. It's my practice experience. And it's formed and informed through the culture of Zen and through my practice. So that your practice of Zen makes use of the word Geist in this way, but doesn't make use of Bewusstsein in this way. Actually, my impression is actually that she uses the word mind. She does not use the word geist. So if you're describing this to your uncle, Oh, no.

[24:03]

All right. Now, how was the word Bewusstsein wasn't created by Freud? So what did it mean before Freud? Freud didn't invent the word Bewusstsein. What did it mean before Freud used it? I don't know. I just know what it means for me in everyday life. Okay, so she doesn't know. what the meaning was before Freud used it. It's how she uses it and how she is familiar with it. So everything that I notice, whether it's a thought or an observation or whatever, belongs to consciousness. through our Zen practice and through your teaching there is a differentiation between consciousness and awareness.

[25:14]

Okay, yeah. There are sense impressions that belong into the field or area of consciousness and those that are not inside that sphere. The word in English we say common sense. And common sense used to mean just what everybody knows. But common sense used to mean, a long time ago, a kind of sixth sense.

[26:18]

It meant a sense common to all the senses which goes beyond the senses. And for various reasons, I don't know what, but certainly partly our rational way of looking at the world, it became that reduced in meaning to just meaning something wordly, something everyone knows, common to everyone, not common to the senses. I would like to say that in Germany there is also a professor. In German there is also the term soul, Seele.

[27:31]

I thought their psyche, the psyche has developed. Consciousness is one part of the psyche. I can study these words with my mind, with my spirit. and I can look at it and say, yes, this word, spiritual, where does it come from, where does it lead, and so forth. But when I turn to the Tara, when I turn to a level of feeling or to a level of space, I can understand what the Tara says so well. go more into this other realm which Tara described, more like the feeling area.

[28:40]

The word geist or wine almost becomes a koan, like the sign of clapping with one hand. Because it's so many-sided and I can use it in a way that I cannot define. The word geist. So if somebody said Zen is the study of the mind, how would you translate that? Geist? So what would you say? How would you translate it? You would translate it with Geist, but you would say Mind. I would use Mind. that it is not possible to comprehend it, because it is always in our head, and then this whole level of feeling or sixth sense is almost incomprehensible.

[30:10]

That is why for me this definition of the German is not correct. When we translate this study of mind with Geist that someone who has not been practicing with us does really not understand what we mean. Because the sixth sense is missing one. But we can only translate it with mind because we are OSHI students. Yeah, so for us, when we simply just use the word mind without translating it into Geist, we can do that also only because we all are your students and we know... I'm in trouble, I'm sorry. No, I think we are developing a common language. Whether among ourselves we use Geist or mind in this context,

[31:11]

Among us, I mean your students, we know at least the direction in which to use it or we want to use it. And that's certainly different from everyday. So the everyday, the dharmasanga use of Geist is different than the everyday use of Geist. I would say definitely so, yes. Yes. I just noticed that I read a translation for Sesshin. I just remembered that I read a transcript of the word Seishin, a translation, to wake up the heart mind. Sesh means gather and shin means mind.

[32:16]

I would say heart mind, really. Herzgeist. Okay. Are you causing trouble? I'm sorry. Okay. So, sesshin means, as I started to say, gather, and shin means mind. I'm not disagreeing with you. And then... but it also means as an institutional word. In other words, it's a name for the institution of Sechin.

[33:18]

You understand what I mean by institution? I would say this form that we do. Yeah. We put a form together. There's a way of doing it. It's passed from generations. It's basically, in English, you'd call it an institution. It's been instituted. It's a tradition. It's a tradition, yeah. It's a traditional institution. So... It also then means to gather one's mind with others. It means to gather your own mind through sitting. But if you're sitting with others, you don't do a sashino by yourself.

[34:20]

You could certainly sit for seven days by yourself, and you could call it a sashin, but it's not really the institution of the sashin. Now in addition, the word shin means mind and heart. And it means the mind as incorporating the body and feeling. It doesn't have so much the sense we have of heart, of love and warmth and things like that. But it's the sense that the mind is a relationship between consciousness and feeling.

[35:39]

Okay. Now, in English, the word mind is a kind of container. In other words, when we say mind, It means all the things like awareness, consciousness, spirit, soul, psyche, all of those things related to the body are mind. Now, traditional Christianity would separate, of course, soul is not part of, is not related to mind. But a psychologist like James Hillman would talk about soul as an aspect of mind.

[37:08]

So in English, mind is a big word that contains all these things. So then the question, I guess, there's no equivalent sort of container word like that in German. Is that right? So then when we study the mind in Buddhism, we're studying all of these aspects. Now, I mean, the usefulness of a discussion like this is, I think, obvious. Even though Tara's consciousness objects and my... Sorry.

[38:18]

Oh, well, you don't have to apologize for what you... You're not entirely in control of your consciousness. Okay, so... So I think that to talk about these things, we do have to develop a common vocabulary. And I've tried to develop English vocabulary in relationship to Buddhist, Sanskrit, and Pali vocabulary. Yeah, and there's nothing as far as I know in Sanskrit or Pali which is exactly equivalent to mind.

[39:19]

It's a useful word even in Asian Buddhism. And as far as I know, there is neither in Sanskrit nor in Pali an equivalent word to mind. And we could discuss during this seminar, it would be a review, but there's nothing wrong with reviewing, how Buddhism divides up the various aspects of mind and what words are used. But what I found most useful and actually necessary to do is to make a distinction, as some of you mentioned, between awareness and consciousness. And I think we ought to, if we're going to talk about that, do it after the break.

[40:20]

I think we need some nourishment before we start with that distinction. And sugar. What sugar? The mind seems to like sugar. Or something or other. Anyway... For those of you who are new to the way I try to speak about Buddhism, or do speak about Buddhism, I think making this distinction as clear as we can is essential. And for the others of you, it may be a useful view. And I will try to make it more interesting by saying it in a way I've never said before.

[41:44]

Or at least a little differently. Okay, thanks.

[41:47]

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