One of my favorite topics to think about and discuss occasionally are certain particularly Buddhist buzzwords and phrases that, you know, kind of things that we sometimes just roll off our tongues that have some great, powerful, and thoroughly undefined meaning. And we talk to each other about these things occasionally. And once in a while I feel the urge to kind of delve into them more precisely and take them apart and see if I can find some more useful meaning to them. So this morning I thought I'd try and talk a little bit about the secret of Zen. You hear that phrase occasionally, even I think it occurs in Suzuki Roshi's books, in Beginner's Mind on occasion.

[01:11]

I think all of us have had the experience of thinking that you know, that someone we know or someone at some other place in time knew this secret. And if only, you know, if only I lived in Tang Dynasty China or only if I had more time to spend with my teacher, I could somehow, I'd learn this, I'd learn the secret from them. As though the secret were something out there that we could get a hold of that, you know, that was a, some kind of commodity. And I think from time to time we all actually think and act in this way and it causes us no end of suffering and embarrassment in the end. But we also know, we also have the feeling that these people whom we consider to know the secret, we also kind of know that they don't really know it.

[02:15]

They don't know this secret the secret as a commodity, so to speak. They don't have it, something that we can get. I think we have to look a little bit at the word to know, to know the secret. In everyday usage, knowing something is a kind of passive action. It's sort of like, oh, I just know that. It's not something we usually consider as an active verb, you know, to know something. But I think that actually the way it works is that it is very active. Knowing something is returning to a set of reference points or a pattern of reference points or getting a hold of something. It's something we do again and again and again. And when we do it again and again and again, then we, you know, we just know it.

[03:19]

But it's something we actually do. We say, we look at the words. We look at the words and then, oh yeah, I know that word. And it's true of any number of actions. When you don't know something, you're sort of fumbling around and then you repeat it again and again and again. Then suddenly, it comes like that and you know it. But it's this process of trying to get a hold of it in a certain sense. And this is essential to our survival and our fulfillment of our lives, but it's also a process that we carry to excess and that we have to learn how to do without, how to not do in a sense. So there's in a sense the opposite or unwinding it or not knowing is something we have to learn how to do, or some skill we need.

[04:22]

And this is another sort of problematical phrase, not knowing as opposed to knowing, because our language suggests that not knowing is simply, well, you just, it's a blank, your mind's blank, you don't know anything, you can't function, you can't get into your car and drive away, etc. And So I want to talk about not knowing a little bit. So not knowing is not only not grasping something in the sense that you're going to know it and have it as some knowledge, but it's also not ignoring things, not being sort of spaced out. It's not sort of reaching to grab it and it's not pushing it away either. It's kind of just letting things alone and not making the connection between, you know, recognition and, well, recognition of something, you know, seeing the clouds

[05:47]

and thinking, oh, this is the kind of weather we're going to have today. On a fundamental enough level that you can refrain from recognizing something and then going on to consider what all the implications are. I kind of a more tangible example of this is has to do with I know Certain desires you might have that you have trouble, you know You know, you might find yourself in this situation. I always do this because I have this desire to do this and you kind of have trouble dealing with that and For instance, in the office where I work, we have an office meeting every Tuesday morning, and every Tuesday morning, the boss brings in donuts, you know, and everybody says, oh, yuck, donuts, and then we all gobble them up, and then we feel lousy, and then we go off and do the rest of our day.

[07:00]

And despite the consequences of eating donuts, You know, most people, and I wouldn't say most people, I don't want to generalize, but myself and other people I know, find it, in some sense, there's a certain kind of appeal to them that you find hard to respond to other than to just eat them. Or other than to get on kind of a... to get sort of angry about it. You know, what are these donuts doing here? You know, get those things out of here. They used to bring you candy all the time, too. Drives me crazy. Another possible way of dealing with this is simply to suffer or enjoy whatever it is you're feeling is about the presence of these objects. And without feeling like you have to do something about it, like you have to get rid of them or you have to eat them or something, you know.

[08:05]

Usually we want to We want to deal with the sensation or the response or desire or feeling, whatever the feeling is, unpleasant or pleasant. We want to deal with it in some way either by satisfying or by suppressing it. And what I'm suggesting is that analogous to not knowing is simply to live with it. Let yourself feel, oh, those yummy donuts, yeah. And then just go back and start work again. So not knowing, this has something to do with what the secret of Zen is. Because now we're talking about something we're not really going to get a hold of.

[09:16]

We're not really going to possess. Going back to this idea of blankness, this idea of sort of nothingness that's suggested by this phrase, not knowing. I think that's a concept which really doesn't exist in reality except in certain extreme states of mind or certain drug-induced states perhaps. My experience is that, well, to put it metaphorically, as soon as I open my hand, it's filled. As soon as I let go, my hands are filled. As soon as I release myself from some obsession, you know, there's something there. There's something there in front of me. So another way of talking about this secret is that it's a... it's a kind of opening up to the secret.

[10:33]

And the nature of the secret is... is that it's secret. Is that only you, only you can know. Only you can not know this Secret. Only you can not possess the secret of Zen. I could talk for several more hours and it wouldn't do any good, real AI. I can only express my appreciation of this practice. But I can't really, as much as I talk about it and describe it and so on, I can't really let you in on anything. You kind of let yourself in on the secret. And I think it's important to touch on this occasionally because we meet together and we do this practice together and we talk about the practice.

[12:01]

And I think it is important to remind ourselves that ultimately there's nothing we're going to communicate about. We kind of encourage each other to keep coming back to ourselves. So I don't really have that much more to say Just a couple of words of encouragement that I might seem tangential to what I've been talking about but Nevertheless I'd like to say that on those occasions when you find yourself sort of longing for this, you know, to know something, to get a, you know, to possess some knowledge or intimacy.

[13:13]

There's a Zen story which I wish I could refer to you. The only thing I remember about it is the punchline. It's a story that Suzuki Roshi, I mean Baker Roshi, told some years ago. There are this teacher and student out in the boat in the middle of the lake. The teacher says, not knowing is most intimate. But when we long and dream for this intimacy, this, you know, something which for us, for you yourself, is what you consider the fulfillment of your practice, and you think that, oh, if I just had that, then I think it's good to just wake up. Now, I don't know how much time is left, but I think we have some time for discussion.

[14:42]

Yes? When I was hearing you talk about the doughnuts, the house and I have a very powerful relationship with doughnuts. Oh, I see. And I think that's what it is that needs to change. And what it is that you don't know is what is your relationship with doughnuts. Because I think the eating of doughnuts is You described the same thing as getting rid of it. Right. You know, I'm related to this thing in some way now. I think I know how I'm related to it, which is to get rid of it. It inspires a great deal of eating. Or whatever, yeah. Yeah, right. But mostly eating. And I think I have that relationship to other foods that I know aren't good for me. I know. I know they're not good for me, but I also know what my relationship is to the food, because I'm the eater of it in some way. So that's what I'm thinking about when you were talking about not knowing in relationship to the donut, not knowing... Yeah, but allowing yourself to not know what that relationship in a way, but you know, not to seize on some relationship that... Familiar.

[15:55]

Yeah, right. Exactly. The other thing that came up for me that I've been really working on is not knowing. It's been very current for me because recently, I guess it was in a paper about that girl who jumped off the Columbia Bridge to save her life. And she was someone who had been in the clinic where I work, first time. And many psychiatrists, great knowers, came with her. And they all failed to know why she was killing herself. So it's been a really powerful experience, because I heard the case as it came through the first time. And I heard the diagnosis being this is not a chronic suicide. And I wasn't paying attention.

[16:55]

I mean, I was, and I wasn't. It was something I was going to present in the next moment. And so it was very, you know, this thing that she was doing, which was jumping off the Colgan Gate Bridge, which was a really powerful kind of suicide attempt. I mean, serious. I just wasn't taking the fear in the last place. And hearing this diagnosis was not a common suicidal cause. And I remember thinking, wait a minute, those two things don't match for me. Letting it go, and not staying with that not knowing. And then having to go kill yourself at the same time, and having myself participate. Because of my not paying attention as it was coming by, and also So it's been very powerful to recognize that not knowing is part of the work that I do in therapy. It's kind of an entrance to the situation itself.

[17:58]

Yeah, because what happens is, you know, you have so many people to see and they're coming through and knowing is very important to handle. Right. But I miss it an awful lot. It's quite inactive, so it becomes, like you say, It's not like a blank. It's really an active process of not knowing. So when you don't know, then the person in the working room keeps coming until they manifest. Then it is. It's not a question of knowing it. Right. It's just right there. Could you say something about the difference between learning and knowing, like we learn to do things? Well, see, it's interesting, you know.

[18:59]

Beginner's mind, what we talk about in our practices, is a kind of expression of that not knowing. And it's easy to have that when you're first trying to learn something, particularly something that's kind of difficult. It's easy to have that beginner's mind because you feel like a fool and you start stumbling around and you have to pay very close attention so you don't fall on your face. Like if you're learning to ski or something, you know. And it's a very vivid experience. And so learning experiences as, you know, sometimes they're difficult and sometimes they're fun, you know, but they're all very vivid. important experiences for us. No matter how trivial the thing is, really. But then after you learn it, then you say, oh, I know that. You kind of leave off of not knowing. Whereas with something like Zazen, which is so simple and so boring that

[20:05]

You can never know it. You know you never know it because you just fall asleep if you think you know it. So that's a good thing to do because it shows you about learning that it's just a continual process. So almost anything, you know, learning, if you can sort of extend what we normally call the learning process on ad infinitum, then you're sort of forced to remain with not knowing, or vice versa. Yes? That's a very, very highly future-minded practice. that are just perfectly designed to force us into intention.

[21:12]

That's true. And when you do it for a long time, it becomes habitual. So what can you say about trying to maintain that freshness in the face of something? Well, oriyoki is a good example because it is something you have to be very attentive with. And normally speaking, when you're not attentive, you drop your chopsticks and cause all sorts of disturbances. On the other hand... I can't remember the word you used, but... not ritualized, but habitual. Habitual is when you stop paying attention. So... And then sometimes it comes back to you because you stop paying attention and you drop your chopsticks when you're doing something habitually. But also, on a more positive note, something habitual in the sense that you kind of, you know, your hands know it, you know.

[22:23]

And so then, So then to bring some freshness, you have to bring not just not knowing to your head, but also not knowing to your hands. So that when you pick something up, you know, it's, it's, it's, you're feeling, you know, you're feeling, what is this in my hands? You know, that's that kind of experience. So being, so when it's habitual enough, you can kind of get inside the habit. inside the habitual experience and you can kind of... you can get at it from another angle because you're not having to kind of think, oh gosh, now what am I supposed to do now? I picked up this hand or the other, you know. It's completely, it's sort of second nature. So then you can find another way to focus on what you're doing, continue your practice with this, you know,

[23:25]

with this activity which does demand attention. But also you can find a way to relax in it when it's... when you're more accustomed to it. Very much so. Very much so. The chanting... My sort of year in and year out experience of chanting is... is whatever I bring to it. If I kind of wake up and... chant with my whole body, you know, hit the toe. It's a totally different experience than it might otherwise be with, you know, if I kind of just getting through it or something. But these kinds of practices are kind of, they're so sort of They give us an opportunity to do something very simple in a sort of protected environment in which we can develop a model for ourselves for how to do that same thing in other more complex situations.

[24:42]

that direct experience of the goal, not remembering the ritual, but having a direct experience of handling the goal and then the chakras. That's true. That's a good way of saying that it becomes habitual and then you can forget about it and just, you know, and still do it. Sometimes when I have the oreo in front of me, I feel like I've never seen it before in my life. I mean, at first I have a panic reaction. But then I just look at it and I'm just like, I can't, I can't remember. Yeah, right. I tear up all the time. And then you just pick up the balls. And sometimes when they come in front of me, I'll just look at them and I can't remember. what I'm supposed to do, so then I have to sort of just find it and do it.

[26:08]

Yeah. Thanks very much. means I

[26:26]

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