When you spoke about that a tree outside a forest is more like a weed, I immediately felt that that spoke to me. In other words, that I am like a weed outside of a forest. And... And why it developed like this for me, I'm probably not going to say much about that now, but it has a lot to do with the religiousness the religiousness of an institution?

[01:07]

Institutionalized religiousness, maybe, is more what you said. I think it's okay. It's okay. I think it's okay. When I was here for the first time, I sat a sashin with you in 2012. And that is also part of the question today, why I came. So experiences are experiences that I make that are singularities, that are possible, but I can't consistently repeat them. And that's part of the question that I came here for.

[02:13]

Are experiences that I have, are they singularities? I mean, are they... Okay, well, no, it's not a question. They are singularities. In other words, I can't repeat or consistently enter these experiences. Yeah, it's like that. And these are experiences I have in your presence. There were denunciations, denunciations for reasons that I can't explain.

[03:15]

I can't make associations. but I tried to come here and then I would get absagen like I couldn't come I wasn't allowed to come because I wasn't part of a particular group or something like that and so that made me feel like I just don't understand that there's nothing I can grasp I have no associations why that would be. What was the particular group you were not a part of? I think I may have not understood that correctly, but I wanted to come to a winter branches weekend, and I guess I wasn't part of the winter branches or something. Yeah. This is one example, there were several, and for me it has crystallized, whether you are part of the organized religious institution, let me ordinate, so that you can come at all.

[04:43]

And so for me, that was one example, but I had several incidents like that. And what became the message I got or the feeling I got was something like, well, I can only come here if I associate myself with the religious part of the institution where I become ordained and so forth, and otherwise I can't really come here. And if I interpret your notes as I did before, And so I'd like to know from what you just said, when you speak about the forest, do you mean the institution? Well, the institutional...

[05:50]

I mean, a sashin is an institution. Yeah, it's a tradition of doing things a certain way. But I, from my point of view, I think almost nothing we do is religious. I have no interest in religion. I come from a multi-generational family which has had no interest in religion for several hundred years. But, you know, I ask myself, what's the difference between having a date to meet someone and a schedule?

[06:53]

If I decide to meet somebody on January 2nd, something like that, That's not a rule. It's just two people have made a decision to meet on January 2nd. And then, but if I decide with that person we're going to meet the second of every month for the next year, that's suddenly a rule. And I agree with the person, we'll only meet, we really will meet once a month for the next year. And then another friend says, geez, I'd like to meet with you too on January 2nd or February 2nd, etc.

[08:06]

But I can't meet in July and August. Then we have a rule, no, you can't meet in February either. And that's not religion. That's just what people do. So the winter branches develop sort of like that, and then the people in the winter branches want to keep it a certain size and so forth. But it was all practicalities from my point of view. And it's come up about the doorstep Zen, too. And that's also the question with the Deutsch Step Zen.

[09:23]

In Deutsch Step Zen I decided to do this without the decision that the group is going to decide who comes. What the winner branches was more like that. But if 50 people want to come, we don't have room for 50 people. So there's going to be some limitation. And then the group is going to tell me, oh, last time it was 30 people and we didn't have a real conversation. And then the group says, let's limit it to 20 people. And I say, is 22 okay? But that's nothing to do with religion, from my point of view.

[10:26]

But it may exclude people. One of the things I first learned was in Zen practice is never to feel excluded. Yeah. So it was great when I can remember there was a party going on which I wasn't invited to. And I happened to walk by and I could hear the music and everybody having a good time.

[11:27]

And I was invited. But I realized my Zen practice was working because I felt, oh, it's so nice to stand here and listen to the music. So anyway, from my point of view, nothing we've done is religious, but it does exclude some people. I'm glad you're here now. Yes. But then maybe we shouldn't call it wheat, but that it's just also a tree that's excluded from the forest. Yes, some trees are excluded from the forest, that's right, because the seed happened to fall somewhere else. But a tree excluded from the forest and living on a cliff in California.

[12:48]

They don't feel excluded. They feel, hey, this is rocky and interesting and look at the salt wind. And ideally, such a tree wouldn't make comparisons. But the tree might say, when it was feeling a little weak, all those unlucky trees stuck in the forest, look at me here. And then that tree might sort of use its branches to scrape a little spot on the cliff where a seed could fall so another tree could show up.

[13:52]

Then if that tree was much like us humans, it would say, I'm so lonely, ten years I've kind of scratched this dirt, no seed has fallen. Und wenn so ein Baum ein bisschen so ist, wie wir Menschen häufig sind, dann denkt sich dieser Baum vielleicht, Mensch, ich bin so einsam, ich kratze hier jetzt schon, ich schabe schon seit zehn Jahren an diesem Ort, und immer noch ist kein Samen dorthin gefallen. So oder so sind alle von uns gleichzeitig Bäume, die im Wald stehen, und Bäume an einer Klippe. But I'm happy that we can look at the degree to which I at least think nothing we do has to do with... For me to bow to the Buddha is just...

[15:09]

One way we're attuning ourselves, and it's very important then to have statues which are tuned and not schlocky. And then it's important when you use it like that, Ideally, you want statues which are really tuning forks. And you line yourself up with a statue, and the statue even lines you up without you noticing it. Someone else. We only have time for one someone else or two. You were first. Okay. You're unfortunately first. We go through a lot of things through my being. There are a lot of things percolating through my being.

[16:34]

One aspect about long time periods and consistent repetition, continuous repetition. maybe one of your core sentences or principles to experience all things as activity. Cognitively, I can say, sure, I can do that. But I've been working with this for years and I'm noticing how it becomes more and more subtle And where I also notice such a place as here, I need almost at a different speed, is a prerequisite, so to speak, as a second habit to establish myself.

[17:42]

And I'm noticing that a place like this, where I can, in a different pace, establish, what do you mean, the other speed? Yes, the other, as another possibility. The one is that I always think in entities. And to notice that, to remember that, that the things, activity, So that also through the different pace I can remind myself to keep experiencing or feel things also as activities or as activities. And how incredibly complex that is. That's all true. Yes. my attention is still very closely feeling through this space that's not Newtonian space and then

[18:53]

And sometimes I know of this space. I know that from the perspective, but from the point of view of Newtonian space, I know that this other space exists. Yes. Seldomly, I am in the other space and then am in a kind of noticing and then think, geez, how did I get here? Sometimes these spaces are like interwoven. Sometimes these spaces are like interwoven. And I have a feeling of being more in the inner space.

[20:08]

And sometimes I'm very close to this other space that I have a yearning for, and I know I'm just one little, like this, one of those away from, a snap away from the other space. And that, for me, is the most interesting observation. weil ich ein Gefühl an dieser Stelle habe, wie es gibt so etwas wie ein Bereich, wo das eine das andere auch wirklich unterscheidend berührt. And that's the most interesting point for me, because I feel like there is a point where the one touches the other in a way where the two can actually in a significant way be distinguished. And I have the feeling, when I understand more about this point of contact, that then also the transition

[21:36]

And I have a feeling if I understand that point where the two touch, the more I understand that, the more I have some feeling that then maybe the stepping across isn't so much of a singularity. So because of that, that's something I'm very interested in and would be curious to learn more about that. Okay, but because our shared collective time is five minutes great, even though our maturing durative time are in different phasing lengths, we should be kind to those making lunch. Maybe I could use an interesting example, the difference between the compass directions, north, south, east, west, and the Buddhist concept of the ten directions, which is an entirely unrelated concept.

[23:07]

My legs belong to someone else, so you have to wait a minute while I get up. You don't have to wait for me. I started early. You can take my legs, but they're not better.

[23:38]

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