Well, it seems to me that you use the constellation process Not only as a psychotherapeutic process, but as a way to think things through, or swim things through. Maybe it's a special approach of the Austrian Banda. Possibly this is a special approach of the Austrian band, the Austrian band of performance. So maybe this afternoon, since it's our next to last afternoon, it might be good if you want to do it again after the break or at some point.

[01:16]

That's up to you. You have to tell me what you'd like. Yes or no? Because this definitely needs some thinking through. But we can do it just like we're doing it. But at least right now I would like some If anybody has some comments, whatever. I almost at lunch got a promise from Christa.

[02:24]

And we have a witness to the almost promise. So you talked several times and repeatedly about this edge or border. Yes. And I had the experience or feeling that I repeatedly slipped from this edge and fell into something what I would call somehow a simultaneity.

[03:32]

Simultaneity. Simultaneity. And one of the indications for this simultaneity, was that the represents of this perception process are also simultaneously present and are in a dialogue with each other. And during Richard's talk, this...

[04:52]

This dialogical notion was also present for me. And it starts with this blackness, I would prefer to call it blackness, not darkness, which appears in a person or which shines through a person. or even through the phenomenological world. It's somehow in a dialogue with what I would also call my own blackness. And to such an extent that I was reminded of a theosophical or anthroposophical idea.

[06:28]

So that the phenomenological world, the world has something like a longing for itself. And that men, that human beings or mankind have somehow a task to fulfill in this sense. And now referring to this mem sign and this pure perception. And I have the feeling that things are talking to us, expressing somehow a longing and also somehow like as if they wanted to be named, as if they have the will or want to be named.

[08:08]

but also with a very great kind of with a kind of reluctance and also resistance and like discreteness. Also shyness. ... and that there is a kind of dialogue between this on the one hand this kind of reluctance and on the other hand this longing at the same time yeah I think I understand Ich glaube ich verstehe If somebody would like to actually respond to Krista too, and not just me, that would be, or say something, yeah.

[09:24]

Rilke mentions that in his ninth eulogy. He says, we are here in this world to name the things and bring them to the world by seeing them, naming them, and putting them. Look, he's always useful. I'm sorry. Yes. I can only acknowledge this. It's a long time, but at this instance a long time ago it was completely clear for me that that's the fact that everything which exists is somehow born from this longing for itself.

[10:49]

And that we are humans, we can recognize, and this recognizing recognizes itself. If I had such a feeling, and I certainly have had such feelings, I would say, how much of this is my Western predisposition to think in terms of acorns and fate and destiny and so forth? Somehow the tree is... The destiny of the tree is in the acorn, et cetera.

[12:11]

And how much that's one of those... one feeling, but in addition the acorn depends where it grows and where it's planted and what other trees are beside it and all that. I was thinking about the little tadpoles out here. They're all swimming along, yeah. And I guess luckily there'll be a lot of birds and fish or something or other will eat them. Oh, we'd have a mountain of frogs. on top of the pond.

[13:16]

And I hope each little tadpole is kind of quite happy being a little tadpole. But maybe some of them actually can also simultaneously long to be a frog. They don't know what they're longing for, but they sort of feel frog-like. And maybe some feel like It's the first step to being a prince. Maybe some think, hey, maybe... Buddha.

[14:28]

So, and you have to go through a certain, I mean the science, biologists can tell us what happens between the tadpole and a frog. But the tadpole has to go into a little darkness, a blackness, from which he or she emerges into a frog. I don't know how I got here, but great. That's how you sit sometimes, you know. No, we don't ask a question. No, no. No, the frog has to go through a kind of darkness and says to himself, I don't know how I got here, but I have to go through here. And so sits... Name? Christine. So sits Christine, sometimes like a frog, when she has to ask a question.

[15:33]

Yeah, it's great. And then a question comes out. But maybe, you know, the tadpole's going along and it sees a fish coming. And the mouth is open. Maybe it thinks, this is the way to become a Buddha. Maybe it thinks, Anyway, you do have to go through a little, or often, a little point of darkness or blackness. You know, when I was a kid, I liked to build U-control model airplanes.

[16:38]

Do you know what that is? U-control? Yeah, well, you build a model airplane and then you have wires that come to a little handle. Yeah. And the handle's called a U-control because it's like a U. Okay. Have you ever seen them? Yeah. And anyway, I was quite good at building the airplanes. And I had several and I made them very carefully and painted them and they were quite beautiful. I must say, I was proud of them. And I was quite a skillful flyer. People go out who are into this.

[17:47]

Lots of adults do it now. And they go out on Sunday afternoon or something and you see 20 or 30 planes. And the... Anyway, I was pretty skillfully alone. I could bring the plane down real close to the ground and pull it off and let its wheels bounce and go back up and stuff like that. But I was quite ashamed of myself because I was scared to loop the loop. To loop the loop, you have to pull back and let the plane make a complete circle. And for a moment, you're out of control.

[18:50]

So if you want to do a looping, you have to... So for a minute you have no control and then the plane catches the wires again and you're supposedly in control. And for some reason I was quite scared to, do I say so obvious, to be out of control. And I'd rather smash up the plane.

[19:56]

And I'd get the plane up there, and I'd be right there, everybody else is looping the loop, and I was like, and then I'd say, here I come, I'm going to smash it. And it would go up, and then I'd take it straight into the ground. So I couldn't do that little moment. So after a while I stopped doing it because there was no advancement and I had a lot of smashed planes. But I really felt a deep shame at my lack of courage. So when I started doing Zazen, I kind of let myself loop the loop. I remembered my fear and then when I'd come to that point, I just let go into the darkness or into whatever it was.

[21:04]

So it benefited me in the end. That sort of benefited me. Okay, sorry for the little anecdote. Someone else want to say something? Well, I'll say something. I'll say things. But you know, I really like it. I get tired of talking all the time. And it feels so good when you guys say things as you do. Anyway, can I say something? Okay. You can say no.

[22:28]

And you'll still say something. I hope you will. I can be quiet. I want to support somehow Christoph. Not only because he's my friend, but also because I find it quite interesting, the question he raised. Because in my experience there are somehow two different kinds of understanding. And the one understanding is somehow... it's an understanding that doesn't need to know. And the other kind of understanding is is more intellectual and more sharp, in a sense. And this kind of understanding has to figure things out and to make things fit. And although I see that in practice it's very important to have this first kind of understanding, which doesn't need to know, but just continues to practice,

[23:45]

Still, I think it's necessary also to have the first kind of understanding. I agree. Do you think I didn't agree with it earlier? Why do you always assume that I ask questions in the sense that you don't agree? Okay, so I would like to support Christoph in his question again, not only because I am very friends with him, but also because I believe that this is an important point. Because in my experience there are two kinds of understanding. The first kind of understanding is like understanding that you don't even have to know. It just keeps going. And it reminds me of when we were in Japan together.

[24:49]

Martin Kramer, right? And we were sitting somehow and we were discussing, I think, this first koan together. On the beach in Japan. Well, it's a good place to discuss the koan. And Martin Kramer said, Well, what I don't like about the practice is that I get less and less sharp. So he's not no longer as sharp as he used to be. His sharpness. And you said, yes. As far as I remember, that's the way it is supposed to be.

[26:09]

And he had been worried ever since. Yes. No, no, no. And... Well, but I mean as a scientist and as a social scientist as well, you are not supposed to say, well, I understand and I have this experience as well. You are somehow supposed to say, well, I think this is not right or you should think about that as well and so forth. But as a scientist and as a social scientist as well, you are not supposed to say, well, I understand and I know this feeling. But you have to be quite sharp and distinct and say, well, I think this is the case and I think this is not the case and I think you should look into this more and more. So we have some kind of, there's a kind of tension. Mm-hmm. LAUGHTER You said you want to hear something.

[27:14]

Now you have to listen. I'm listening. Really? What? I translated my English into English. Shut up. Very shut up. I had this experience before. Okay. I saw... Okay, so as a scientist or as a social scientist, you have to act very differently. You can't say, yes, I understand that and I had this experience once and so on, but you have to say very clearly, so I think that's right, I think that's not right, you should that you look at this and that again and bring these two things in relation to each other, whether it fits together and the same more.

[28:18]

So there is a certain tension in these two ways of understanding. And I believe that this is also in practice And I think both kinds of understanding are important in practice and particularly you are very distinct when you describe things and very precise. Yeah, and Martin Kramer's lost sharpness and I haven't. Martin Kramer has lost sharpness and I haven't. No, I'm sorry, Martin. Wherever you are, I apologize. Martin Kramer has lost his sharpness and I haven't. Sorry, Martin, wherever you are.

[29:19]

Well, perhaps I have to have more patience than a social scientist. Yeah. But I've had the experience often, when you mentioned that earlier, I thought, Sukhiroshi would give these lectures, you know. Twice a week in San Francisco when I started to practice. And I would, you know, with entranced by his lectures. And I would sort of let loose at the beginning of his lecture. And I would just sort of go wherever it went. And I had an experience of being completely attuned and engaged with the lecture.

[30:42]

And then the lecture would wind down and I'd sort of land. And in those days, he always ended his lecture with, do you understand? And it was always a let down. I just didn't want to deal with whether I understood or not. So I said to him once, can you not say that at the end of lectures because it throws me off.

[31:51]

I didn't add, do you understand? But he smiled at me and then he continued saying at the end of lectures, do you understand? So someone else want to say something? Yes. Well, that triggers something in me, although I think maybe it's a different thing. You start in German first and then switch to English? I prefer it. So what Erich just said, bring it something. She wants to try for yourself. Okay, super, gern. And during the lunch break I really got the feeling that I was becoming a stone, sinking on the bottom of a lake.

[33:17]

And all the time I have the feeling that I am swimming in the soup, and the soup is swimming in me, but I can't name, grasp or understand anything. I've had the experience in the last two days that I feel extremely worthless and I feel just like being in the soup and I'm swimming in the soup and the soup's inside of me and I really feel unable to main themes or main insights. And after lunch break it really got really intense. I just felt like I got slower and slower and it's a feeling of sinking like a stone to the ground of a lake or something. And then I actually had the feeling that I had come to a state of stillness. It was a feeling of stillness and going into things and a very strong perception.

[34:18]

I had a sense of really very broad awareness and kind of going into things and at the same time I was wondering is this immediacy because it doesn't feel, I didn't feel awake in a way, I didn't feel this sharpness. And that's what really touched me right now, because it seems to me that in the last few months it has been very busy for me in general, that I have this feeling that my perception and my feeling are changing. And I often have the feeling that I don't feel anything anymore, because all of a sudden I feel different than before. And I miss this clarity or sharpness. And now I wonder if it's just like a different mode.

[35:26]

It's been on my mind because in the last few months I've been feeling like there's been a shift in my way of feeling and perceiving that I very often I felt like I don't feel anything anymore because I didn't feel the sense of sharpness or clarity and now I'm wondering if it's just a different way of perceiving. Well, I think so, but I can't say for sure. But in general, that's the way I think. So let me say a few things and then we'll have a break, okay? All right, if we think of consciousness not as a... entity. But as a process. Okay. Now The one way that process is apparent is consciousness is actually, I think, my experience is, is always gathering and releasing, forming and releasing.

[36:58]

Now, most of us spend our waking day trying to keep consciousness formed and not release it. And that's very tiring. Now I can just give you a number of related examples. It was amazing to see Sukhiroshi work with people. At this time, in the 60s, he was in his 60s. He was working with all these young men. moving stones.

[38:06]

They start early in the morning and end in late afternoon. Sukhira, she seemed to have endless energy while the young men were getting tired. And this particular work they were doing at this time, and I really was observing this, was in a stream bed under a bridge where we were rebuilding the wall which had been washed out. And the men, the young men, were all pushing and working and standing there and etc. And then Sukhirishi would be pushing and then he would be standing there like in another planet. Aware, but hardly paying attention to anything.

[39:28]

He was kind of relaxing most of the time. And then he would say, okay, let's do it this way. And then he'd push a little bit, and then he'd relax for a while. It's that, as I've gotten older, I've discovered that's the only way I can dance all night. I have to find a lot of time to relax in the middle of dancing. So, I think consciousness is... You know when you... When you dive off a pier, sometimes the water comes in and it's deep enough to dive, and then it gets too shallow to dive, and you wait until it comes back in and it gets deep.

[40:41]

So when you dive, you always have to wait until the water level is high enough that you can dive, and then you have to wait until the water comes in, then you can dive, then you have to wait again until the water comes in, and so on. I find when you're with people you can feel their consciousness gathering and releasing gathering and releasing and you can make a decision to Enter it when it's deeper or enter it when it's shallower and so forth like that. Yeah, and you can enter when it's you can relate to some people and always relate to the deeper part of them because you can feel the deeper part appear and you can relate to that.

[41:45]

You know, when When we are, I'm in a situation where a practice is evolving. And we're still swimming in understanding. The important thing is to establish mutuality. So if someone, anyone says something and And I say, I understand. What I mean is something like, I understand what part you said

[42:47]

that I want to understand. Or I might even mean, I understand what you should have said. I understand what you almost said, and I accept that. And by saying I understand, maybe I'm encouraging that. And I say, I understand what you have almost said. And by saying this, I encourage you to say this part as well. Point is when you're in a situation where you're trying to develop understanding, you support mutuality because it is likely to lead after a while to more understanding. So, when I say, you know, like, I understand, I mean what I said this morning.

[44:01]

But I also mean... I understand enough that what's important now is that there be mutuality. And I want you to trust me enough to assume I understand even if you think I don't. Because that trust is more important than whether there's understanding or not. Now in other cases, when you're practicing, the teacher may say, I don't understand even when he does or she does.

[45:20]

And the disciple keeps being put in a position of He doesn't understand me, I'm going to go away. Then you see if they stay without support. They stay without the kind of usual social nice support. Now a third stage, which occurs primarily in transmission, is the teacher says, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Very good translation. Right rhythm, you have the rhythm right.

[46:22]

And then the disciple has to reproduce it exactly. And if they don't get it exactly, they write it out and bring it back to you the next day. So it could be a paragraph or two or it could be 10 or 15 pages. And then you go through it and every divergence, every slight difference No, do it again, do it again, do it again. Until they get it exactly as you said it and presented it with exactly the understanding. And then when they've got it exactly, then I put a seal on it and I sign my name and date and then they get it back.

[47:34]

And it's considered until you can reproduce your teacher's teaching exactly You don't have permission to teach on your own. So we're in the mutuality stage now. One last thing. I've given you what I call the yogic practice of noticing or something like that. And it's interesting, when you translate Tibetan and Sanskrit words sometimes, which mean to perceive, if you look more closely, it's not to perceive, it's to gaze.

[48:50]

And gaze in English means to look at without turning away and absorb. So the yogic practice of noticing, I've suggested, is to go from the particular to the field. And as I've often mentioned it here, I look at you and then I go to the field.

[50:03]

And I look at you and I go to the field. You, or whatever, and just whatever catches my, whatever... Without intention, perception rests on. And to go with whatever perception is like to hear the owl. It generates a non-intentional mind. And then to go to the field, What's happening then? You're going to the field of interpenetration.

[51:05]

Of interdependence. When you go to the field of interdependence There's no particulars, it's just a field. And what do both do? They cut off associative thinking. A non-intentional mind cuts off associative thinking. A feels mind feels interdependence and knows the interdependence. But knows it rather free of associative thinking. So if this is your habit of noticing Then you can let in associative thinking as you wish.

[52:11]

So again, the non-intentional mind and the field mind are very close to what we mean by the Dharmakaya. So here, again, you're working with the edge of things. When associated thinking is present, when the inner penetration or interdependence is present. When a non-intentional mind is present. And this changes your relationship to the synchronic immediacy and to continuity and the stored experience.

[53:29]

Now that's enough before break. Do you understand? No. Can I? Yes. Yeah, okay, good. Yes. Just not a question, but just a remark. When you said, so you point out there is continuity, permanence and impermanence. Mm-hmm. And then there's repetition. And the point of this repetition is that you notice impermanence. Yeah. But this repetition is again somehow creating permanence.

[54:30]

But the permanence which she's pointing at, it's another kind of permanence. I wouldn't say so. It's an antidote to predictive behavior, and repetition is not necessarily predictive. Mm-hmm. It's more you're fighting fire with fire. So there's samsara, which is predictive behavior. So you use repetition to counteract So man verwendet also die Wiederholung dazu, um das vorhersehbare Verhalten dem entgegenzustellen. Thank you for your patience.

[55:32]

Vielen Dank für Ihre Geduld.

[55:34]

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