Seeing a mood or feeling. And saying now, when did I first, where did that come from? So you follow it back to, oh, I thought of that. And then I thought about that. And then I shifted my posture. Such and such. The true present is the present of all the triggers, not the effect. After a while you can get back to where you actually feel a thought arise, not later when you're saying, why am I thinking about this? That skill helps a lot in our psychological maturation. And it also helps in coming into a clear, unobstructed mind. Okay. Kisla? Yeah. Is the Dharma body also conscious? I have an example.

[01:29]

Deutsch, bitte. Why don't you say it in Deutsch first? Ob ein warmer Körper ein Konzept ist. Ich habe da ein Beispiel. Manchmal gibt... Willst du übersetzen? Gerne, ja. Manchmal im Sessi, vor allen Dingen, gibt Bikurashi... Sometimes in Sashin, you give the practice to see with the ears of... To see with ears or to hear. Hear with the nose. Yeah. We walk around and as we don't talk in Sashin we enter another kind of sensitivity

[02:30]

Last year I couldn't see for some time. Die Konzepte von etwas im Vordergrund. It helped me that I had done this practice for such a long time. But although, in spite of that, there were always these concepts. So bin ich ohne Augen... conceptually. So without eyes, I moved through the world conceptually. I felt and I heard and I could see it in images.

[03:44]

So my question is really, because we also say everything is a concept. Is there something beyond that? Well, I think to use Dieter's paradigm, instead of intentions dissolving into attention, I think concepts do dissolve into direct experience. But, you know,

[04:54]

Maybe we should have two different words for concepts. I said the other day the dimming sleep of conceptualization. Yeah, there's some sort of term like that in Buddhism. Which means like, as I gave the example of Sophia the other day, when Sophia sees the... not as something she's falling in love with Marie-Louise just told me that Sophia gets excited about things

[06:28]

The way I do in a Japanese restaurant. She has a little mobile that we... comes from Beate's store. And I can't understand exactly why she likes it so much. But she lies looking up at it with... trembling and smiling and laughing. It's beyond happiness, it's ecstasy. But at some point she'll see a placemat just as a placemat. And she'll keep it in place.

[07:42]

She won't hug it, lick it, bend it, kiss it. Yeah, and when everything just behaves like it's supposed to conceptually. This is called a dimming kind of sleep. So that's one understanding of concepts which limit the way we think. Das ist ein Verständnis von Konzepten, Begriffen. Sie beschränken die Art, wie wir denken. And that's primarily concepts as they are used in language. Und das ist hauptsächlich die Art, wie Konzepte in der Sprache verwendet werden. Because for a word or concept to be part of language, it has to have certain attributes that allow it to fit into language.

[08:51]

So it leaves out all kinds of other attributes. So that's a useful but often negative... It's a useful... Such concepts are useful, language is useful. But if it's the primary structure of our thinking, it's a kind of deadening effect. Okay, but let's not confuse that with the concept of the Dharma body. I mean, I'm using words, Dharma body or truth body. But that doesn't fit into any sentence. or the phrase I used earlier, the teaching of insentient beings.

[10:00]

That's a typical bodhisattva phrase that doesn't fit into any sentence. How can you have insentient beings And how can they teach? So it's a phrase that points to an experience that it can't be in language. So the phrase shows it doesn't belong in language. But it can be a kind of concept. Teaching insentient beings that can be present in our activity. So when things start teaching you, you feel, oh yes, insentient beings are teaching So likewise, the concept of a dharma body, what is it?

[11:04]

I didn't give you a very strong concept today. Yeah, but I said it's related to non-dual detachment. And the backbone and so forth. So you can have a kind of concept which actually can lead you somewhere, teach you something. And if I'm going to walk out that door, and not just bump into the wall repeatedly, I have to have a certain concept of the door. So I know that that shape usually means there's a way to get out of the room.

[12:08]

So concepts like that are the way we function. And Tibetan Buddhism, particularly Tantric Buddhism, particularly emphasizes the enactment of concepts. The visualization of bodhisattvas and so forth. And then to bring attention to that concept and enact it. So I'm sure And so I'm sure a completely blind person forms a concept of halls and things, may not relate to the actual hall, but they go through doors and things like that. They have to have some kind of conceptual, something conceptual has to be happening.

[13:08]

I'm talking too much, I'm sorry, but just one little story that I like about Piaget saw a movie of a blind kid. You saw a movie? Piaget saw a movie. Of a blind kid who, you know, couldn't hunt around to find his toys. and one night, one morning, the toy that had been left somewhere by him the night before, He crawled right across the floor to where it was. He remembered where it was. Piaget said, Eureka, object permanence. Because the kid had known that it probably will still be there the next morning.

[14:37]

That's a concept. A concept. That the door is somewhere, that things are where you leave them. Now, a Buddhist parent, as soon as they were about to find the toy, would push it aside. And the kid goes, ah! You say, you wreak your object impermanence. Yeah, but that would be mean. We have to learn object permanence first. Christian? A few times you told us that That Norman Fisher asked you, is Zen about harmony?

[15:46]

And also then when he asked you, you answered him, no. But you also told us that at this point you didn't know yet why it isn't harmony, about harmony. I knew the answer was no, but I didn't know how to say much more about it. I also have the feeling that the answer is no. I also have this feeling that the answer is no. But I also have this feeling, if it's about entering the Dharma body, That this also means to be in accord with the world, the things, the phenomena.

[16:55]

So that there is also being in accord with disharmony. Can you say something to that? Well, just in the immediate context. I would say that this sense of a... of an entry to the Dharma body, is to leave everything alone, let things come into accord by themselves, or to discover the accord that's there even in the midst of discord. And also to know that things are only momentarily in accord.

[18:45]

There's accordance and discordance, accordance and discordance. That's a more accurate view than saying to bring things into harmony. Yeah, which is too, you know, too orderly, too rigid an idea. Okay. Good enough for now, I hope. All right. Yes. What happens to me is that I feel distant from the things like trees or the grass. And then I touch the grass or the carpet and I ask, why is it so far away? And I try to come closer with the eyes.

[19:56]

There were examples how you can come closer to the things through the body and Are there other possibilities to come closer to the things? And what does it mean to switch other kinds of practices or techniques to come closer to the things? What does it mean not to see and hear with eyes and ears?

[20:58]

Specifically. Practically. The latter part, don't worry about it. Or just keep it as simple as to allow yourself a feel for the world before you listen to it or... or divided into senses. Feel for the world and then let hearing come in or let seeing come in. Now, as for the first thing you mentioned, if you notice that you have a a conceptually based perceptual framework.

[22:11]

Like the grass or the rug is neither near nor far. For some reason you're you're bringing a conception of distance to your perception. Now, if you notice, and I'm speaking to everyone, if you notice you have a conceptual baggage going along with the perception, then you just can create an alternative conception. That that you try to hold before you in the midst of mental and physical activity.

[23:21]

So you could try various things. Like neither near nor far. Or always near. Or just now arriving. I think just now arriving is a kind of good phrase to practice with. So that when you are walking or doing something, you feel like you're arriving. So you play with... a conception in a mantra-like way that you notice is an antidote to the way you notice your perceiving. Like there's some kind of wall or everything is far away or something. I don't see any question.

[24:34]

I think I have many questions, but it's difficult for me to formulate one now. It's lucky you weren't sitting here. Now just tell us something. What's been your experience this week? So on Sunday... On Sunday, which was the first practice day for me, I thought, I cannot make this. And I thought this day would never, sorry, I thought the day would never end, and I also thought, how did I end up here?

[25:38]

Okay. I was wondering that myself, too. And I thought, well, this day is really an eternity. And little by little it changed. Now it feels quite normal here. It feels quite normal here? Don't tell anybody. That's a kind of progress.

[26:48]

Okay. I also don't have any questions for the moment. How to cope with the dynamics I am finding in the community? And my reactions to the dynamics? That's about it. Do you want to point out the dynamics? I am actually aware of the difficulty I'm having with the sitting and putting the towel and the gestures, all these little details that seem to be a continuous performance.

[28:10]

Sorry, can I talk to you? I am very clear about these difficulties that I have with these exact regulations, where you put this towel and so on, that it actually goes through all day. And it's like I say to myself, it's a price I pay to receive your teaching. It's a what? Price I pay. It's the price. Oh. And I say to myself, it's the price I pay to receive your teaching. And then I'm hearing that there is something in those things themselves. But right now I am only perceiving how some people are very kind to me with my mistakes and my inability. And some other people are very judgmental.

[29:18]

Who? I'm just witnessing... No, no, it's all right. You don't have to tell me. I'm witnessing how I am handling it all. And also that I forgot again that It's black here. The color is black. I had completely forgotten that. No, but I thought you were making a positive statement that it doesn't have to be black. Yeah, because that's just a rule. I mean, that's just something that the community decided, not me. Yeah, I think it's OK.

[30:19]

But I never asked anyone to wear black. Marie-Louise is annoyed by that. She's going to come down in red and polka dots and tiger stripes, she said. Just to give people the freedom to not wear black. So I thought you were doing it for us. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and all these details, I know they can be terribly annoying. But there's some actually, it's common, I mean, whatever the details are, we should have a practice that the details are different than your learned habits. There's certainly some value to the orioke.

[31:22]

I think you'll find out if you learn it. I would say it's a much more profoundly conceived way of eating. As an activity of the body, then our formal way of eating, as typical in the West, But, you know, even if it wasn't, we should do things here that's different than our usual habits.

[32:23]

Because we hide in our habits. So, I suppose what I should do is once you get used to the Yoyoki, we should change everything. Hermann? I refer to the question of Christian. I refer to the question of Christian. To try to enter the Dharma body in a kind of harmony. And you answered to enter the Dharma body by letting the world be like it is. And that I try often. And that's what I'm trying to do very often.

[33:34]

In meditation. But I'm trapped in this... I'm trapped in be spontaneous. I can't just say let it be like it is because at that moment I'm changing it already. So how can I jump out of the trap? Yeah, well, letting it be is a different kind of changing it than making it what you want. Change it. Not harmony. Sorry. He said that letting it be changes it. Not letting it be changes it.

[34:38]

so you're choosing between two kinds of change choosing not letting it be choosing letting it be is usually the better choice not always but it's usually the better choice and if you have the tendency to move in that direction The direction of letting it be rather than doing something. Eventually you begin to feel like you're letting it be without interfering. But just being present, everything is changing. There's no way to take your participation out of the situation. But there's a difference in direction, and that difference in direction is significant.

[35:56]

And you can practice with not for a while. I mean, you can't do it at work or something. Not doing anything unless it happens. By itself. Yes. I have no question, only... the experience already I knew that this was tough also because Dieter arranged to send me the program with the waking up time at 3.30 so you had a pleasant surprise But anyway, it has been very tough for me the first two or three days.

[37:22]

Also because I have back pain, which most probably is of psychological origin. also because I have back pain, which is probably of psychological origin. And it was so that I had to enter a very concentrated breathing exercise in the first morning, otherwise I would have had to get up in the first 50 minutes. As you know, I lived many years in Asia and still in the part I'm living in.

[38:25]

And you have in Asia the concept of forms of procedure, which are not very heavy. So then you accept the fact that to proceed in a certain direction, you have to have practice and form, which is like a path. You accept or not, but this is a fact. And again, in Asia, The concept you expressed the first day of your seminar, the mind and body as only one thing, the concept that is very particular and very strong and then is erasing my mind,

[39:32]

I would think that this is really a very continuous concept for many reasons, background, commencement, and it is also an area which brings to you a lot of meditation, a lot of meditation, especially in this particular moment of scientific developments and new ideas and new studies. So I'm really very much in this in this particular concept, I would think that it would be easy for you to just make a summary. The concept of this connection between body and mind is also very important in the scientific context and it brings important meditations for him.

[40:49]

This is what you understood me to say. And this is working for you. I think you should let it work in you. But what I should have said, not to change the concept for you, is mind and body are not one and not two. It's a field to be cultivated. It's definitely a relationship but how we cultivate that relationship is what practice is all about. And let me give you one more sort of truism of yogic practice.

[42:04]

All mental phenomena have a physical component And all sentient physical phenomena is a mental component. So it means every state of mind, like change, has a physical component. Okay, and by the way, you could have sat in a chair or a fountain. I don't know why I said that. to do some sort of sacrifice. You could say, well, I am wearing black, but black is a eunuch, young girl, and necklace. So you fit in, you wore black, and you look younger. So you found a home here. Okay, yes? My question is,

[43:04]

My question was also what Sabine asked. And it was answered beautifully. Before I came to Johanneshof this time, I read a book. Which excited me somehow. Thank you. Suddenly I had the impression that my practice efforts were not enough. So in practicing, in meditating, I try to put more effort in it and also, like you said, regarding Sophie, I also try to stand the pain

[44:51]

But I didn't find the balance. I missed the point where the body said, well, that's too much. And did you harm yourself? You think so? During this week? Oh, I'm sorry. No, it's not new. It's an old injury which came back. I'm sorry. Well, it is important to distinguish between pain that's damaging us and pain that is psychological or just wanting to move. You know, there is the pain, as I have often said, if you put your arm on a chair. And you decide to leave it there for four or five hours.

[46:14]

It may start to hurt. You may want to, I'd like to move my arm, you know. But you can do that if you fall asleep very easily. So what's the difference? The difference is the mind, the kind of mind that's in the arm. And when you can have that kind of mind that lets your body sleep in one position, you can also sit more comfortably. But distinguishing between that pain which just wants to move and that pain that's damaging is not so easy to do sometimes. But it's important to be able to make that distinction. And it's probably better to err air on the side of moving or playing it safe.

[47:36]

Yes. I want to talk about something which was in our group yesterday. The topic was likes and dislikes in a polar relationship. And my guess is that that I'm going to ask is And Beate told or advised us that what is to be aimed at is a neutral attitude. And this word, neutral, and what I associate with it best, from my experience, is not true at all.

[49:01]

And this word, neutral, and what my connotation is about it from the West, it doesn't fit at all for me. Because I experience internally that this neutral space, because my inner experience because my inner experience is that this neutral space or realm is very alive where all world comes together to carry this realm space so Yes, in the German language neutral is connotated like it doesn't matter. and at home where I'm practically alone with my Zen path.

[50:21]

But what people easily say to me, well, that's Buddhist, and that means it doesn't matter. The life is missing. It's not alive. And the question is whether being at ease and serenity, whether this expresses the same. Man kann doch ein Krieg und leidende Kinder und was weiß ich sonst was uns anspringt, das ist also was als Vorwurf dann kommt, auch nicht gelassen ansehen. And what comes also as a reproach is you cannot look at the war and suffering children with being serenity or neutral.

[51:35]

That's even worse. I think you're exactly right. And so I've been, you may have noticed, I've been avoiding the use of the word neutral. And I said neither pleasant nor unpleasant. The place of neither pleasant nor unpleasant is not the same as neutral. And I use neutral as the alternative to like and dislike. And I think that's true. If your mind is caught between liking and disliking, Anything that's not one or the other, you miss the excitement of one or the other. Feels neutral or even boring. But we can also understand that feeling of neutralness as something that we need to penetrate to find our true life.

[52:41]

The larger question I don't really want to say much about. Yeah, true. War in Macedonia or in Israel, Palestine. That's news. Unless you're there, it's news. And the news of it dulls us. Und diese Nachrichten, die stumpfen uns ab. Denn wir können nicht auf sie reagieren. Aber hier in diesem Raum gibt es Leid. Und wir können in diesem Raum miteinander handeln. Und wir wollen nicht neutral sein. Yesterday and today in your lecture you said something to make the world your subject.

[54:16]

which I know, very good, desire and ideas and, yeah. Yeah, I didn't, I don't know what you translated, I didn't say to make the world your subject, to notice that we do make the world our subject. Mm-hmm. And on the other hand, somehow the world is there as an object. Sometimes I can experience feelings of gratefulness or happiness that things are there for me.

[55:39]

oder versuche ich immer wieder so zu üben, And then I also try if I see a tree also to experience that it's me who generates this tree by my seeing. So my question is, how do these two things come together? So the question goes to this subjectivity and objectivity. Well, it's a little dangerous to use the words subjective and objective.

[57:02]

I was a little worried about it. Because being objective can also sound kind of neutral or dead. So I tried to use the words in the sense that it's an activity of noticing things how we see the world subjectively and how we can see it objectively, but kind of like karmically subjectively and dharmically objectively, not objective. And I wanted to move toward really the basic superficiality of ordinary dualism. It engages us in a way that obscures reality, actuality.

[58:15]

But it's just a way of thinking about things. A more energetically rooted dualism is between our ordinary body and our dharmic or and that's a dualism we hardly notice hidden from us and bringing that bringing our sense of the truth of how the world exists together with the way we form our usual way of seeing the world It's one of the fundamental works of practice. So would you want to frame something else, because I didn't respond directly to what you said?

[59:19]

Is that all right, what I said for you? Okay. Yeah, I feel something, I'd like to say something else, but we don't have so much time, so Moritz? I don't have any questions. I have thousands of questions. If you want to know how I feel, that is how I feel. And I only can say what I just was thinking about. I was thinking about how this was coming closer until it's my turn or your turn. And I noticed how much this changed for me.

[60:44]

And I also thought about how it was when you said we each should ask a question or say something. How it felt within me. And how it felt as Tanja reacted to it, for example. And that at that moment I could thank Tanja for it. Because at that moment you feel what all this is, what it is. Yeah, it's okay. That's good. Think as each question goes down the line toward each of you.

[62:01]

You can feel it approaching. Then suddenly it's you. But then suddenly it's me every time. For some time I'm dealing with the question what Buddhism and what Zen Buddhism is. Is it a practical science of life? For life? Of life? And or is it a religion? And in that context? What is the function of the service which we practice?

[63:25]

And which to me feels very holy somehow. Yeah, I know. Everything we're doing at Crestone and Johanneshof is trying to answer that question. And also we've inherited a practice. And I don't feel smart enough or the permission to change everything. And I know Sukhirishi definitely did not want Buddhism to be thought of as a science of life.

[64:27]

He felt it would become a kind of sophistry then, just a clever way of thinking. And he basically required me or expected me to go to all the funeral services. He wanted me to see that side of Buddhism. And so, you know, because the Japanese congregation was quite old, they died several times a month. So I had to go to these funeral ceremonies of all these people. I didn't know. And security would come out in this big... silk hat like you see on Tibetans too brocade and a big thick robe of brocade with a staff and so forth and he would enter into some far out space where it was close to being dead or alive

[65:44]

And he would, he would enter some kind of arid room, where really, And he would do these ceremonies. And I've always resisted ceremonies. But I learned something about them. And one of the main reasons he sent me to Japan was to, he said, to see the Buddhism as a religion of ordinary people. You know, and sometimes I... So now I have to do funeral ceremonies sometimes. Please, none of you rush me. Um... But, you know, and I had to do Issan's funeral ceremony, for example.

[67:11]

Tommy Dorsey. And I wore, as I usually do for funeral ceremonies, this robe of Tsukiroshi's. This brocade robe. Which, I mean, I couldn't afford anyway. They're extremely expensive. A whole village has to contribute for a year or two to buy such a robe for a priest. So on me when I wear it, it looks like a mini skirt. And I've got this big hat on, you know. You were there at that ceremony, right? So I come in and I'm, you know, I'm trying to do this the right way. And there's the daughter of one of my best friends, who I've known since she was born.

[68:15]

She was about seven or eight, I guess. She looks up and she sees me coming down the aisle. And she says in a loud voice in the whole funeral center, here comes the wizard. But I persisted. And inside the hat, it's real hot, I'll tell you this. But I know that if we made this practice really just a science of good living or something, it would be much shallower.

[69:28]

And the ceremonies, of course, mostly they do serve a purpose. I've taken out a lot of the obvious religious stuff from the echoes. There we offer this merit to so-and-so. But this sense of a body of appearances and a body, a ritual body, Yeah, you can actually, particularly through chanting or singing, really experience this body which has no boundaries except in the chanting.

[70:35]

Mm-hmm. And I found that I don't know how to make that happen in German and English. So I've kept things in Japanese, a large part in Japanese. Mm-hmm. And I know that if we didn't do service and things in the morning, it wouldn't feel the same during the day here. So I think we could say Buddhism as a teaching is not a science, but a kind of wisdom, a But still, the religious dimension, the faith, the expression in ritual is part of all of us as human beings and gives depth and resonance with others to our experience of each other and the world.

[72:04]

But you notice Buddhist ceremonies aren't about anything. Yeah, they're not about God or something or some outside power. Yeah. And the body is not conceived as being some kind of ideal body or It's just some kind of changeable form. And what do we do this ceremony you're going to do Friday? Nenju. Which at Tassajara used to be the subject of a joke. Because we all had to stand outside and there were usually 65 students. It was hot summer and there were lots of insects.

[73:24]

So the joke was, what has 130 legs and flies? And it was summer ninju ceremony. But what is that ceremony about? We clean the building, clean the zendo. Then we all go in, I go in the zendo, or this time Gerald will do it. We look it over and see if it's clean. Then we all walk around in a circle. Then we bow and say Hosan. No one even knows what Hosan means. And it's done sort of chaotically, so we start bumping into each other, and no, everybody's in their way.

[74:29]

And finally, when it's all over, we're all standing in our positions, and the sendo's clean. And there's no other meaning. That's all. It's all just move on around. We talked about it yesterday in the group and we were all of the opinion that there was a great closeness, especially at the moment when everyone had to say Po San, something that touched the heart. Yesterday in our group we talked about this and we all agreed that there was, you could feel closeness just at this moment where you said, Hosan. I know. And being touched of the heart. No, I agree. There's something mysterious about ceremony. Even this one where we wander around the room for bumping into each other.

[75:35]

And somebody said, why don't you work it out so it's more clear so we don't bump into each other. But the point is to bump into each other. It should be kind of mixed up. Where am I supposed to go? And when you do ceremonies, I mean, they're not supposed to be written down. You're supposed to have to do them by memory, and everybody's got their little different idea, and it gets mixed up, and that's the way it is. It's not like a piece of Western music where all the notes are known. more like kind of ceremony jazz and everyone's riffing. It's about nothing at all except doing it. So as religions go, this is better than most, at least for me.

[76:37]

Regina? I'm also... This is taking forever, I'm sorry, but... Are you surviving? I was so occupied by feeling my feelings, all the things going on, so that I can't ask a question. Come on, tell us something.

[77:42]

You've been practicing for years. Also, come, Regina, erzähl uns was. Any good Zen student is supposed to be ready at every moment with a questionnaire statement. How has it been for you to be here this week? Okay. Eric? Eric? We'll get you later. She thinks she got away with it. Go ahead, Eric. At first I want to thank you for this beautiful lecture this morning. And then I would like to Again I had an experience at the swimming pool so the playground of the children and in the near and far a group of people was standing and lying and sitting

[78:55]

And I perceived this group like a flat thing, only the colors and forms and sounds. And this was a bodily perception. And my question is, does this bodiliness of the body or being anchored in the Dharma body mean to be anchored in the first skandha or closer to the first skandha? Yes. Yes.

[80:12]

Yes. Ah, yes. You're getting the feel of it. Yes. Yes. In this week, I feel the desire to become stronger, to get to know things that surround me, especially in nature, but also objects. First of all, to get to know solid matter or dead matter more, the quality. In this week I feel the wish getting stronger to get to know, better get to know material things. Everything what is surrounding us, not only nature but also objects, quality of material, whatever.

[81:20]

I've been trying for some time, but without success so far. I mean, not direct success. Maybe it's coming, and it's a fruit of this, but I don't know. So is it possible, my question, is it possible when... No, no. Now supposing or knowing or having a feeling that I can pour attention into my body, is it possible in a similar way to pour also attention, in a similar way really, not with the senses like you answered to some of the others?

[82:33]

before really go to one sense and then there are all these displays, but more like pouring another kind of attention, maybe to the carpet, to know, to feel this carpet, not to see it and so on. Yes, so is it really an attention to, for example, to go against the carpet as it would normally be in the body? Yes, that's me. Next.

[83:36]

The questions are getting easier near the end, aren't they? Sounds like an Italian. Italian, they're giving the question and then they don't answer. Yes, go ahead. Yes. Yesterday or this morning you said that the Dharma talk is elusive like a hungry ghost. And I understood it whether there is a Dharma talk given or not, it's the same. And what happens to me during these talks sometimes is that I'm really drifting away.

[85:11]

And in spite of that, I feel that I learn something. But I cannot define it. It's somehow going on in my subconscious. Dharma body or true body. Probably also because it's important that you learn these terms like dharma body, dharma body and truth body. And somehow I have the feeling that I'm being rebellious against these terms. And this is also a little problem for me that I pull back in all this intellectualizing and talks and so on.

[86:29]

And I feel somehow being squeezed or tied in all these terms and definitions. And also in the ceremonies, although I like them, I also feel somehow confined by them. The same with the black clothing. So I'm feeling as a rebel. And it took me a long time. The first session I did with you was 12 years ago. And still I have my problems. Also with sitting. Twelve years and I still have pain.

[87:39]

And my feeling is I don't understand anything. Maybe I also fight against the pain because of the physical pain and inner pain comes up within me and also deep sadness. And for 12 years, since 12 years, whenever I meditate here, I start crying. And this weeping is brought up through the pain. Yeah. Well, at least for me.

[88:52]

Yeah, that I've been grateful for the physical pain of sitting. Because it's one of the surest ways I've opened myself to my own inner pain. Yeah, and... found a way to become very familiar with it and make it a present part of my life. But of course, sitting is quite a skill. I think one can do one or two or three sesshins in a lifetime.

[89:56]

But if you want to do it as a regular practice, which I'm glad I'm able to do, you really have to decide, okay, I'm going to sit two or three days, two or three periods a day the rest of my life. Or you're just not ready to do sesshins. So I can remember being at Tassadar once after about, I don't know, I'd probably done by that time 20 or 30 sashins. I thought, oh, suddenly in the middle of the second or third day, I thought, oh, my God, this is the rest of my life. One sashin after another from now till the grave. I almost got up and walked out. Somehow I stayed. So I mean, I don't, I'm always surprised when somebody does more than one or two or three sushis.

[91:17]

Some people get so that they don't have any pain sitting, but that's never happened to me. Oh, it's not a problem for me anymore because I don't care about it. But my legs don't work well enough to sit without pain as some people can do. Yeah. And at least from my experience too, that the mind, which can just leave your arm in one place all day, I appreciate having gotten used to a way of being.

[92:17]

Where if the ceremony went on all day long, I wouldn't care. I mean, I have to breathe and my heart has to beat somewhere. You know, we could continue going around and asking questions till tomorrow morning if you want. I don't care. Actually, I don't get tired. It's just fine. Yeah, and I think this is some weird fruit of practice. You get to say you're sort of like a suitcase. Hopefully an empty suitcase. Where somebody can put down anywhere and you stay there until somebody comes and moves you somewhere else.

[93:29]

Yeah, well, there's that old suitcase over there. It used to be called the Roshi. And then somebody else's head would be hung as often. Crestone, you'll find me sitting in the corner somewhere. I'm making a joke, but it's partly like that. But I don't think this is for everyone. And there is a confining aspect to it, as long as you... There is that aspect to it. But at least for me there's also freedom.

[94:30]

And we have one more. Is Eric going to translate for you? So I have this double practice here, and then when I go out, I have these three boys. You're one of them? Yes. No, Richie. Oh, Richie. And you have to know that they have to sit in three different tubs, because everybody has to have his own ego boat, otherwise it doesn't work.

[95:35]

Are you giving them baths? No, these baskets, which we also use for the laundry. They are touched, so that's how we practice them. And this lunchtime I had the pleasure of eating arioki. And, you know, sitting there and you do these simple gestures and you... I mean, I learned it, so I know how to do it and I like it. Today I had the pleasure of having a yogi lunch. These rules and these simple hand movements, I have learned them and that's why they are simple for me. And at the same time I heard the children screaming outside and I heard the parents in charge talking.

[96:40]

And I know the feeling in my body if I'm outside there.

[96:46]

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