And that's what a good teacher is always looking for, is that student who will eventually teach him or her. I once read the book of Ken Wilber where he writes about his wife and being with her and her dying. And there was a time when I also worked with cancer patients and also did meditation with them. How do you work in satsang with the mental and physical suffering or what do you mean?

[01:28]

They're suffering in both, if you have cancer, they're suffering in mental, psychological sphere and also in the body. So how do you work in such a way? You mean if you happen to be the person who has cancer? Or do you mean somebody who has suffering because their friend has cancer? You mean how do you relate to suffering? How do you relate to suffering? physical pain and mental suffering. Well, there's the four holy truths. There's suffering, there's the cause of suffering, there's the freedom from suffering, there's the path. You've convinced me you don't know much about Buddhism. You just convinced me. Yeah, but you've been to our seminars and things.

[02:35]

So you know more about Buddhism than you think. Anyway, the first teaching of Buddhism is the relationship to suffering. But practically speaking, if you do zazen, and you get used to sitting through the difficulty of sitting, It dramatically changes your relationship to suffering. And it's not something you're so afraid of. You don't seek it, but you're not so afraid of it. I remember Suzuki Roshi had cancer and died of cancer. And I was sitting beside him talking with him. At some point he said to me, because it was very painful physically, we were having a conversation and then he said, you know, I feel like someone's torturing me.

[03:44]

But even though he was in the midst of feeling like somebody's torturing him, he was able to talk and have a rather good state of mind. Because he felt the suffering, but he didn't identify with it. And the only way you get through a sashin, at least if you have such poorly, poor lousy legs as I have, is you don't let the pain flood you. After a while you know that your legs are buzzing down there somewhere, but it's all right. Okay, something else. I think the pain flooding you, there's also a chance to get deeper.

[04:59]

Yeah. You have your choice. Sometimes when you really flood it and you go into it and through, then suddenly it disappears and gets clear. That's also true. So, yeah. When it's true that our existing is determined by about 80 or 90% of this thinking, so what does this mean?

[06:05]

And I can explain this question a little closer. I think that it can be in that way, and that was yesterday new for me to think it in that way. And I think to myself, what does this mean? Does this mean anything? In German? It was very new to me. I think it's like this, that thinking is determined by 80 or 90 percent, or by what we do in this size of living. But it was still new to me to listen to it. And I asked myself, does it mean anything? mainly of us. And you're saying, okay, so yesterday was the first time you noticed what a large percentage of our life is thinking. Yes, because the day before I saw the most important thing in my life is the feelings that come up.

[07:09]

But maybe Yeah, I think the most important thing is the feelings that come up. And if we distinguish feelings from emotions, We have what I would call non-graspable feelings. An emotion is like anger or sadness or something. But let's say right now in this room there's a feeling that we've created together. You can't name it exactly. It's not sadness, it's not anger.

[08:11]

There's some feeling. And if somebody walked in, a stranger, they'd immediately feel a certain feeling in the room. And you can feel it, but it's hard to notice it. If you try to notice it, it's not there. And that's what I call non-graspable feeling. And non-graspable feeling accompanies all mentation, emotions and so forth. And if you know about the five skandhas, it's the second of the five skandhas. So being alive is a feeling. Yeah. And then that non-graspable feeling, that's just sense of... Is he conscious or unconscious, you know? and death would be when that feeling of being alive goes so that feeling is there and that turns into more specific feelings and it turns into emotions and it turns into thinking and that turns into consciousness

[09:33]

That's the five skandhas. Now, we tend to identify more with not only the consciousness part, But also the thinking within consciousness. And within thinking, the self that organizes the thinking. And all this is fine, except the more you emphasize up here, you lose contact with this. So practice is to let go of the identification with the narrative self in thinking. You know you're also that, but not only that. Our existence is bigger than self. So you let go of the identification with the narrative self.

[10:57]

You let go of identifying with thinking. And you let go of identifying with consciousness. And you then have more of a direct experience of your emotions that aren't in the service of self. Emotion, as I talked about in Vienna last year, in English it just means movement, emotion. And so when this feeling starts to have a movement, we can call that an emotion. But when it's protecting and defending the self, Then it gets, oh, I'm quite angry about this or I don't like that or I fear this.

[11:58]

But when that basic movement doesn't go into the self, then it's a very pure experience of things. And you can begin to observe when emotions become confined in the self. Now, how do you work with this? All emotions are rooted in caring. Okay, you wouldn't be angry if you didn't care. So you try to work with the roots of caring in whatever emotion you're in. So again, there's nothing wrong with thinking or any of these things. It's just how you work with it. You begin to see it and you begin to see how you construct yourself. Socrates said, know thyself. This is a way to know yourself and your non-self.

[12:59]

Non-self means the wideness of your existence which doesn't fit into a simple identification with self. So when Buddhism talks about non-self, Or getting rid of the self, that's a mistake to talk about it that way. It means better to widen your experience of self. Like you have a wider experience of self because you have a daughter. And your daughter is part of your self. And you know that feeling. But that feeling can be extended to your friend or to us. So widening that sense of self, it doesn't mean you lessen your responsibility to your daughter, but you widen the sense of self.

[14:19]

And a Buddha is someone who sees you as a daughter or a mother or whatever. Which sees each person as someone that's really part of this larger human body. The true human body, as Dogen said. I was just in this little Italian place across the street. And there's a very sweet young waitress. A little funny looking. And she spoke some English. And she was like a glorious little cosmos all of her own. And she was trying to be a human being. And it was sort of fun to watch her trying to be a human being.

[15:22]

Quite pleased with speaking English. And I was pleased too. What do you think? I like to hear when you're speaking. Oh, thank you. I like to hear when you're speaking. It was nice to hear your voice, thank you. So what would you like to do this afternoon? I have a question which seems to be not really ripe yet, but I just want to...

[16:32]

It's clear to me that we don't really have an uncorrected mind. And interfering or suppressing parts, it goes on all the time. And most of this interference is non-conscious or unconscious. Unconscious. I would like to know what makes it possible to notice where interference takes place.

[17:50]

How does it feel like? And what in sasen puts this in effect? Which practice could help to come to these points? Well, in this fascicle of the Genjo Koan, Dogen says if you're floating in a boat, you may think the shore is moving. But if you look very closely at the boat, you see the boat is moving. What? So you have to look very closely at the boat. Now, I think that in a sense you're right.

[19:10]

There's no such thing as a completely still or uncorrected mind. But I don't think it's the case that... It's going to be always influenced by unconscious things and so forth. I think first of all you have a vision of uncorrected mind. I mean, this is an attitude. It's a kind of device or dynamic. In other words, in each situation you bring the attitude of uncorrected mind. That attitude interferes. Yeah. I mean, even if you just sit down, you're affecting your mind.

[20:11]

If you straighten your back, you're affecting your mind. But whatever you do, you do this with this attitude of uncorrected mind. Now, that'll be different, that'll be different from doing the same things without that attitude. Does that make sense? So you're bringing that attitude into each situation. Just, what is it? And maybe you work with a phrase, like, what is it? So, before you act on anything, your first thing is, what is it? What is it? Then there are I would say two things.

[21:33]

At some point you begin to notice and have a feeling for stillness. Pretty much like really still water with not a ripple on it. and you have experiences like that in zazen or you have experiences that approach that in zazen and you begin to know when that is the case and then you begin to notice when the water is disturbed And you have a clear sense of when there's big disturbances or unimportant disturbances or no disturbances. And I think a person with a certain degree of realization would experience their mind and body

[22:38]

as mostly still, and maybe with lots of small disturbances, but they're not very important, and they mostly disappear. And then if you have this attitude like Dogen says, firewood is firewood, ashes is ashes. So if you're just in this situation, this is firewood. Then the ripples tend to settle. Okay. Now, if there's some big ripple or you can feel some pressure under the surface by pushing the water up, or whatever, you know, then you can use this observing to say, where is this coming from?

[24:08]

And one of the main practices of zazen is to follow a thought to its source. Or a mood. You notice that you could follow where did the stillness come from or where did the disturbance come from. And you simply practice a certain kind of... to recapitulate to a curtain kind of to recapitulation yeah and so you say oh a little while ago that wasn't there now I've had this thought about something or other and it's easier to do if it's a thought you don't like You say, well, where did that come from?

[25:09]

Well, it came from this thought. And it came from that thought. And it came from that mood. And it came from hearing the car horn. And you just do that. And that tends to make the mind calmer. And you also tend to move toward what we could call the real present. Because the real present is when the trigger occurred. We usually notice it several sequences down the line. Now this is this practice of concrescence. Concrescence literally means growing together.

[26:11]

Okay. So at any one moment there's various kinds of sensory input. The fan. Christina's voice. Your voice. What your question was. Things that come up, float into my mind because of what you said. Because of the fan, because I have associations with fans. And all that's coming together. And it grows together. And then we act. Now most of us don't notice this because it just happens like that.

[27:14]

And part of the skill of meditation is to be in that present moment and extend it. And it helps, and this is actually the mind of absorption. Where you really develop this, we call it actualizing mind. The mind that everything gathers into it, grows together, and then is expressed. So if you do this recapitulation, I don't know why I'm stuck on that, recapitulation, when you do this recapitulation, And you get in the habit of being able to follow thoughts to their source.

[28:19]

Or moods or emotions. For some strange reason, once you've got the skill to do it on a regular basis, For some reason your sense of attentiveness to the present moves earlier in the present moment. Let me give you a physical example. And this is the hospital. You have a headache. You say, when did I get this headache? So the first thing you do is notice when you first noticed, did you have the headache? Then you try to see what happened at that point.

[29:24]

And what happened before it. And you can usually come to the actual feeling of when the headache occurred. And once you notice... When it occurred, you can almost never have a headache again. Because you can feel the little change of blood vessels in your head and so forth, and you just stop it. And you can also in a very similar way work with colds and the flu. Because usually an illness appears before you start being sick. For instance, you may notice that whenever you think, geez, I've been healthy for days, that thought is the first sign that you're getting sick.

[30:26]

And within two days, you'll have the flu. So as soon as you have that thought, you say, okay, I better work with my body temperature. And what I would do at that point is I bring a concentration into my body temperature and I try to spread an evenness of body temperature throughout my body. Another sign I have in myself, when I'm starting to get sick, my fingertips get cold. And as soon as a fingertip is cold, it's often this one. I simply immediately work with the symptom, warming my hands, working on my temperature, and usually I can get the train of sickness to pass through the station without stopping. I can feel it coming down the tracks and I say, no passengers here.

[31:45]

I wave it through, you know. Sometimes it stops. And then all these germs get out, you know. Come on, just stay in the waiting room here. Then I try to keep them in the waiting room. So, Christa, did I partly answer your question? Go ahead. Yes. Yeah, as good as I could pose the question. There is still something which is not answered, but I will work on bringing it up. Okay, good. Sure. Basically, you do get a feeling for the stillness and silence of mind.

[32:54]

Normally we have a feeling for the activity of mind. So everything that happens is attracted toward the activity of mind. And the more you have a feeling for the stillness of mind, you lock into a kind of silence. then things tend to be attracted toward the stillness. And that's actually more close to the nature of mind. For instance, the waves of water, as I say would be impossible unless the nature of water were not stillness. Only because water tends to return to stillness Are there waves?

[34:03]

If it didn't return to stillness, the water would just fly off somewhere. But it keeps returning back to stillness. But when you identify with the waves, then it makes it harder for it to return to stillness. And when you begin identifying with the stillness, with the water of mind itself, then you can notice very clearly when it's disturbed. then it's much easier to do something about the stillness, the disturbance. Yes, Kristin? Is it possible to experience this stillness as well in activity? Yes, absolutely. Is this a practice for the more advanced, or can a beginner also do this as easily?

[35:26]

Of course. Well, not as easily, but not so easily. No, but it should be a practice and a vision in your practice from the very beginning. And it definitely gets better. But, you know, I'm a very... You know, even though I'm sitting here teaching, I'm a very poor practitioner. And, you know, it took me years to really find myself present with my breath. It took me years before I noticed that in actual fact my mind tends to start from zero at all the time. In other words, my mind doesn't go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It goes 1, 0, 1, 0, 3, 0. But it didn't happen in the first few years. It took a long time before that really was the way I functioned. And it makes life a lot easier.

[36:47]

You feel kind of relaxed inside all the time. Again, my eyebrows are, you know... growing into my chin. And as I told you, I shaved them this morning too. So when it's just one o'clock, so we'll have one hit of the bell. That's one hit, and now we'll have another one hit. That's the way you hit a bell. It's three one hits. Thank you very much.

[38:13]

One o'clock. Three o'clock. Unless you want to meet sooner, but three o'clock's fine. I probably have a shorter meeting this afternoon. Unless you guys have some awfully interesting questions. I'm very sorry I can't give it to you in German. But it's something like the power of those lands once intertwined with the gods, Rise in me as you.

[39:24]

The power of those lands once intertwined with the gods. Rise, mount in me as you. They rise in me as you. Since this was brought for me, I feel I should drink some of it.

[42:48]

It won't be too hard to do. Um... Uh... I won't probably see you for another year. What shall we talk about this last afternoon? Something wrong with your hand? Please. I noticed there is something which I have to add to my question this morning about SARS in the hospital. As a hospital. As a hospital.

[43:59]

Also in a hospital. And it's that I cannot pose my question for the others about the suffering of somebody who has cancer. And I found it a little bit Well, you cannot really compare your pain in Sazen with the pain of somebody with something like cancer. And I cannot really know how this pain feels like, this pain is. So you have the pain of the disease itself and you have pain caused by the therapy, chemotherapy, which also induces pain.

[45:18]

Of course. A lot of discomfort. And I think that my feeling is that really people would like to experience something like Treya Wilber was able to experience while she was was dying caused by cancer. But the people I'm dealing with, they don't know Buddhism or anything about meditation. So I took this question back to myself that it really is a matter of my attitude, einstellung, or my posture dealing with it?

[46:23]

Of course. Ja, natürlich. A lot can be learned from your willingness to trade places with the person. Do you understand? This is us. the more you have that willingness to trade places with the person, and the willingness and the feeling in you that you'd be willing to accept the pain. We can't compare exactly, of course. And the feeling in you that you'd be willing to accept the pain.

[47:44]

We can't compare exactly, of course. But if you have that feeling, then that state of mind helps people. And then if you're just with somebody, bringing your breath along with their breath, and the pace of your body along with theirs, this is the best we can do. And it's usually surprising a lot better than when, you know, usually if you're in the hospital with somebody, People come in very cheery, oh, how are you today, etc. You can tell the patient just wants that person to leave.

[48:47]

Some people come in all kind of, hmm. And the patient has to cheer them up. So it's best, I think, just to be there, no big deal. That's my experience. And Krista, did your question evolve at all, the third generation yet? Okay. Wonderful. Wunderbar. Yes? I understood what you said about pain and just taking the pain, and so the story as you told about the sutra, and how you deal with pain during meditation and feeling practice.

[50:05]

But at the same time I'm wondering if in Zen the attitude towards the physical body I don't know exactly yet if the mind... You mean it's too sharp and tough? Is that what you're getting at? No, okay. I'm not sure if the body, the physical body, gets enough value. For me, my body is very precious. Yeah? Yeah, my body is very precious. I can understand that. My mind is very precious. And sometimes I'm wondering, like, if you say, I don't identify with your body, I don't identify with your emotions. It's like, let's split it up. But that's exactly not what I said.

[51:07]

I said it's much better to identify with your body than your thinking. I understand. In the general popular image of Zen, I understand what you're saying. And my impression is Zen is very often very poorly taught. From my point of view, at least. But I haven't heard myself saying any of those popular images. You're right. I don't feel that you can deny your body. It's just the way it is. But I'm really wondering about the thing.

[52:10]

I don't know that. I'm just here with you. I don't think so much about all these things. Okay. Friday night he talked about deep sleep. That's the old sages from India. They knew much more about this. Well, no, they just described what they knew. I don't know if they knew more, but perhaps. They describe non-dreaming deep sleep. as an integrative state of bliss.

[53:34]

But they also said you forget it more completely than dreams when you wake up. If that's the case, how could they have known? That's what I said. I didn't say they knew. I said, how could they have known? Yeah, they either made it up or they imagined it or surmised or they knew it the same way we know it through assuming that meditation, which is like non-dreaming deep sleep, is what non-dreaming deep sleep is like. I don't think there's any special skills the ancients had that we don't. We are the ancients. A thousand years from now, they'll look back and say, the ancient people of Vienna practicing Zen.

[54:49]

Somebody will find a kind of funny sketch of Michael, you know. And they'll say, they even looked almost like us. But do I think that the people who, for instance, created the koans knew more than us? Yes. Do I think that the genius that's in language is... I don't know if I want to go into this, but just look at language. I mentioned my feeling about this at Linz a little bit. Which is, a child can learn a language. And yet, In language is an immense amount of wisdom.

[56:07]

But it's still something a child can learn. Any human being almost can learn language. And the wisdom of that language is available to the child if they mature into the language. And I'd have to say, and matured into their own lived life. So what is the difference? I think it's actually friendship. I think if you look from my experience, if you look at the creative times in history, They arose from a kind of friendship. Let's just look at Vienna in the 1900s. In the early 1900s. There was a very small group of people, but they've created much of what the feeling of the city is. And they knew each other or loved each other or fought with each other, etc.

[57:23]

And if you look at the centuries or decades even in which the koans were created, it was not very many people who lived fairly near each other. and had a lot of contact with each other, and through disciples, friends, and each other, and developed a common vision, and through that each other brought that vision forth into the society. And that very vision they had taught them. When you write something, you often find that the writing writes what you want to write. The act of working with the writing brings out things you didn't know you were going to say or think.

[58:41]

So my feeling of Sangha is it's a search for ultimate friendship. So again, we have this phrase of Rilke's. The power of those lands once intertwined with the gods arise in me as you and as you and as you. And this is also a perfect description of the vision of Sangha. It's those of us who share a vision deeply enough with enough intent that that very shared vision begins to empower us

[59:43]

and to teach us. The problem is getting enough people, all these people around, to come together enough to find a common vision. And to give that common vision a higher priority than their personal vision. And unfortunately, although anyone could do it, not many people do. And I think it's absolutely necessary. I mean, it's necessary also because we have this planetary culture that's developing.

[60:55]

And we have a planetary culture rooted in two major civilizations. Presently, it's primarily rooted in European created modernity. Modernity? The modern world. Basically, the world that we call planetary now is European. We didn't get the Chinese and Indians to believe in Christianity. But we got them all to wear suits. And that may be more important. So, and I think there's going to be a big flip. My guess is in the next 20 years to 30 years, there's going to be a flip so that the creative force in planetary culture is Asian.

[62:12]

And they've got the population. Their team is bigger. And then there'll be probably more of a balance will occur after that. The problem with this, there's no shared vision. The most we come to is a convenient idea of humanity. And in this pluralistic world, it's very hard to have a common vision. So we have a vision that each person should have enough food and medical care and a roof. That's great.

[63:15]

I would love everyone to have a roof and medical care and plenty of food. But this is not an inspiring vision. It's a lot. The best we can do in today's world. But it's nowhere close to what will create a planetary culture. So let's us together start now. I actually feel that's what we're doing. Yeah, would I be making so much effort if I didn't feel that? I'm kidding. I'm sorry. I'm making a speech again. Yes. Eva. Once again, thinking and emotions.

[64:34]

I have a question. I'm just starting to translate. You're also sitting like Maitreya Buddha. Well, can you tell? Yes. I have a question. Why? As an emotion, concerned about the self. You told us that. I know, I know, yeah. In German. As an emotion, concerned about the self. They tend to be as long as we identify with the self as us. Then the emotions tend to serve the self. When you find that you can move your sense of identity to your body, our lovely, usually friendly body, and to our sensorium, and so forth, and to the field of mind itself,

[65:59]

then emotions are, you wouldn't call them emotions anymore, they're the basic movement of energy in how we exist. Then you don't have this problem of frustrated or repressed emotions making you sick and so forth. Mm-hmm. I hope that he might. I'm working on it. Yes, go ahead. It seems so convincing to me that it makes sense to distinguish between different categories. For example, thinking, emotions, and I don't remember now the answers, but it seems to me so helpful. And now you've mixed it. Or you... brought in a new level in which everything is vanished. Yeah, but it's vanished if you perhaps vanished, if you, to a significant degree, identify less with the self.

[67:31]

But most of us have a mixture. Yeah. And as long as you have a mixture, then you're working with emotions that sometimes feel more free and sometimes they're revealing something you have to look at. They're revealing something you should look at. The middle part I also lost. There's sinking mind. And there's various kinds of... What did you say?

[68:35]

I understood sinking like sinking down. Yeah, that's what I said. That's what you said? Sinking the guest? Not thinking, I said sinking. Yeah. I think so. So, you know, I'm tempted to start the three, you know, relative mind, absolute mind, and imagined mind, and show how they... But I don't want to... I've taught too much this weekend. But as long as, you know, as long as whatever is there is there. It's not, you know, that's what you work with. Can I carry it on me? Oh, yeah, please. Maybe I wasn't able to bring it on there. Okay. I think that emotions are something different.

[69:53]

From what? Yourself. Okay. Yes, I think so too. And maybe they are something against yourself. Yes. I have a picture that emotions are surrounded in new causes and collectives unbewusstes. Collective unconscious. Is it the same in English? Unconscious, yes. This was raised my question. When it is, when it is that it is existing, call it being unconscious. I'm not sure about it. I'm sure about it. It doesn't exist. Yes. Sophia cannot be grounded or rooted, I guess. No, I think we have, yes. Well, I believe that it's a very

[71:18]

a very helpful theory to understand something. And I found that the idea very interesting, that maybe some part of our emotions are rooted in the body. But you should say there is nothing there. No, no, but you might be right, I might be wrong. If you look at Jung's theories as a pedagogical technique, then it's quite useful. And of course, I look at all of Buddhism as pedagogy. But the reality is too immense and complex to be caught in a religion. The religion brings you to the threshold. Okay. The problem I find with Jung's collective unconscious is conceptually it's the same as a God. To think that there's some kind of thing, collective unconscious, that's everywhere, and all people have it, I just think it's not true.

[73:08]

So I distrust its conceptual roots. And as far as I know, when I talk to cultural historians, And people who aren't caught in the Joseph Campbell type kind of mythology. When you listen very carefully to Joseph Campbell, he's quite mixed up. And he says, well, this is this and this is this, but it's quite general what he says. I think when you look carefully at these things, you can say that other societies have a mutual mind of some sort. And there may be archetypal forces. But they're not going to be Greek gods. There's going to be, who knows what they're going to be.

[74:10]

No, I know, yeah. Yeah, I know, but when you look at it, I don't think you can say it's in English. Something else? Yeah. What is the part, forgetting yourself?

[75:42]

Is it not to identify? Is it being connected with everything? Yes, like that. Yeah, so, genauso. But Eva, coming back, that's right, you know, although it seems like I disagree with some of the things you said, I'm not sure I do. And we'd have to have a very common language to be sure. But in practice, your practice, This is not my practice, this is your practice. You have to trust how you discover the world and what you work with. Yes. The problem is connectedness, because at one point you can see very much of everything appears separate.

[76:59]

You see it alone, ashes at the firewood, at the barrel. Both are true. Now I'm connected. What? Yes, it's about being connected, and on the other hand, about being separated, but also about standing there individually, because Roger, as I understand it, insists very much, every moment is unique to him, and stands there alone, and ash is ash, and firewood is firewood, and then you think to yourself, yes, where is the connectedness, where is the being connected, although it also relieves me to hear that, that the separated day standing is something freeing. From one point of view, everything exists. This is the basic idea in Buddhism of two truths.

[78:02]

Form and emptiness. And from one point of view, you look at it, it's like maybe very simply the wave-particle theory in electricity. You look at it one way, it's waves. You look at it another way, it's particles. So if you look at everything, if you look from one kind of mind, more less time-based, things have an absolute quality. Just this, just this. And if you look from another point of view, then it's all interrelated. And then we have, in addition, interpenetrated. These are ways we can look and see the world.

[79:04]

But the world doesn't exist in those categories. But those in Buddhism are the best categories we can use to look at it. Does that make sense to you, sort of? Yeah. But if you try to fit it together, you can't. If you try to fit the world together, you end up with a world that's three-dimensional, logical, non-quantum. Mm-hmm. Anything else?

[80:06]

One thing that I carry with me since some years ago, you talked about when to put something in your hand when you sleep, to have access to the unconscious. And I hardly ever practice it, but I carry it with me. You carry the possibility with you or the feeling? Yes, sometimes I do it a little. But at the scene when I did it, it had some very disintegrating effect on my energy body. I was waking up a little in disorder. And so I would like to know more about how the practice is. Because today you mentioned the thing with the calling.

[81:24]

Yeah. George? One thing that he mentioned a few years ago when he was singing was that if you fall asleep with an object in your hand, for example, you can bring your consciousness into the unconscious and can tap the unconscious. And he also gets access to it and creates a spin. And today he mentioned that again. Do you mind if I tell the story Of us all sleeping in that little house in Japan together.

[82:26]

There were, what, 12 of us or more? No, 11. 11 of us sleeping in a little tiny house. The two rooms were about as big as this room. Christina was there and Ruth was there. And he was there. And suddenly in the middle of the night, every now and then, he would be up on his feet. Isn't that correct? And we'd go, what's that? So Did you feel a little disintegrated then? This is not sleepwalking, this is sleep training.

[83:36]

So I can understand if you want to do that in the middle of the night by holding a coin or something. Well, it does prevent you. If you have something balanced in your forehead, it does prevent you from jumping up. Well, you know, if a practice like that doesn't work for you, you don't do it. Yeah, but then if you want to, then you see, you try to work with it. Because there's no real reason why it should be a problem. You're just developing an awareness that's underneath sleeping, underneath consciousness, that's underneath your sleeping.

[84:37]

But it happens anyway without doing this. It's just one little way to do it. So if you're attracted to it, try it and see how you feel. Okay. Yes. In last session you talked a little bit about the relationship between body and mind, and you said that it's not only a relationship between body and mind, it's a relationship between a body-mind and a mind-body.

[85:43]

And as you taught about mudra, Mr. Shin, I understood how the body-mind works, but I don't understand the other way around. And I think this morning you already talked about it a little bit, but it was too short for me. The mind-body instead of the body-mind? Yeah. How do you understand it? Well, as I understand, the one-one-half, body-mind, you have a certain physical posture, carries a mind with it, and you can extend this mind from, for example, the mudra to your state of mind, and it can carry your state of mind.

[87:02]

So the other way around could be, well, a state of mind creates a certain body. In a way, you can say the body shapes the mind and the mind shapes the body. I think the best thing is, maybe we should say some of this in German, but the best thing is for you to just stay with the feeling of this and work. Okay, it's after four o'clock. Shall we sit for a little bit and then end? Okay.

[87:45]

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