So, what's on your mind, or your non-mind? Yes, Reinhard? I don't know if I can expound on that very clearly directly, but I would more like to describe what's going on. Okay. I like the theater of how you present this. Please tell me to translate. Yeah. What's it called when a big warship shoots with all their cannons at the same time? So that's what you're doing.

[01:03]

Oh, really? That's what I'm doing. I hope nothing's hit you. And then I have this array of different possibilities of what I pick out, I think. Yes. I can understand what you said about Andreas, who has been sitting there for five years and doesn't understand a word. I can understand what you say about Andreas, who is sitting there for five years and doesn't understand a thing. I know that once, as a vagabond mathematician, in a lecture about Hegel, I remember that as a vagabond mathematician, I once wandered into a lecture about Hegel, and although it was obviously my language spoken, I did not understand a word. And sentences like being is nothing, or the being is the nothing.

[02:13]

Okay. But being, also es ist schwer zu übersetzen. Sein und Sein ist, weil hier geht es ganz verschieden. Beingness or so. And I think that the reason why I was there and why Andreas stayed is that you informally present something that the mind doesn't just see. And I think the reason that Andreas stayed and that I was there is because you're informally presenting something that our reasoning mind does not absorb or does not take in. Maybe like the presence, Suzuki Roshi's presence, who didn't need to say anything. And yet the question for me remains, how is it possible to get underneath consciousness? There is something called altered state of consciousness.

[03:15]

Altered state of mind, yeah. And you can take psychedelics and then you notice that entities obviously are activities because the walls are beginning to breathe. mind. But these are states of consciousness and it's not this Buddhist mind. So bleibt für mich die Frage eigentlich, wie ist es möglich, und da denke ich immer an den Baron von Münchhausen, wie ist es möglich, dass wir in unserem Verstand so etwas wie eine Absicht entwickeln, sozusagen unter den Verstand zu kommen.

[04:27]

Also aus dem Verstand auf etwas, was So the question remains for me, how is it possible, and I keep thinking of the Baron Münchhausen, how is it possible from within the reasoning mind to form an intention that gets us underneath the reasoning mind? Okay. So what helps us there is actually a poem by Eliot, who says, we were there, but I don't know where, so no topos, no place. And still I have a hard time imagining this mind that's outside of consciousness. And what helps me is a poem by Eliot who says, We were there, but I don't know where.

[05:33]

Okay, that's good stage one. Well, I'm not trying to speak about this in a way that you can think your way to it, but just sit your way to it. And you keep this wider sense of beingness in mind, but not in a timeless space in mind without feeling I have to get there. And I don't know about Baron Munchausen, but anyway, let's continue. Someone else. Yes, Guido.

[06:57]

It's nice to see you. I haven't seen you since last year. Also, maybe you just can't think about it. So, let me say two things. When you told me, or when Oshie told me that he always does this exercise with a hundred or a thousand people, Maybe one just can't think this, but I'll say two things. When you spoke about this exercise you are doing with hundreds or a thousand objects. And before we were talking about memory, the question of memory. And in this moment I realized that two or three times before, at Roshi, we had done an exercise together, or he had told me about an exercise, Naming. And before I remembered that maybe two or three times ago with you, you spoke about an exercise with Naming.

[08:00]

And during this conversation, before, I realized that everything Where I did the exercise, that is present today. But what Roshi said in the seminar, I don't know anymore. I only know where I did the exercise. That's all. And from this conversation that we just had before, I realized that I remembered most things that I named during the exercise. I remembered what came from doing the exercise. That I suggested, the exercise of naming. But I don't remember, and I'm sorry, but I don't remember anything you said during the seminar. That seminar. Back then. Well, this is good. And so maybe this is something one can't think. I did do this exercise with the eight points outside. One can also stand still, doesn't have to sit.

[09:28]

Go through these eight points. And I noticed that something happens when going through these eight points and holding them in awareness. But I can't think it. Thinking doesn't reach there. That's right. So you just have to trust something which you don't know what you're trusting. Yeah. but we have a feeling of that trust. But we can't name what we're trusting, but we have a feeling of trusting. Okay, someone else. Thank you. Yes, what is your name, by the way? This state before the thought arises.

[10:40]

which is easy for me to feel, easy to comprehend, which has also moved me outside, when I am in this state and should then perceive the phenomena in their beginning, middle part, end part and also in letting go, in consciousness, where it no longer excludes itself. Okay, that's right. Yeah, so this phrase you mentioned, to hold on to the moment before thought arises, that phrase I can easily resonate with, I have a clear feeling for this moment. Yeah, great. And I just tried this out, the break, when I am in that moment, but then at the same time I'm supposed to look at phenomena with a feeling of beginning, middle, end, and then also releasing and feeling that in consciousness, then that doesn't work together.

[11:56]

One at a time. Eins nach dem anderen. Really, these are kind of like exercises. And they're kind of like acupuncture points in space. So you try one out, and you let it be part of your inventory of ingredients. And at another point you get a feeling for this beginning, middle, direct and releasing. And they get built into you. Right now, your lungs are working, your blood is working, your heart beating.

[13:06]

There's a neurological circuit going. No, you have no problem. It's all happening, right? And mostly you don't have to be conscious about it. Yeah, we build practice into our subtle metabolic system in a similar way. That's one thing that's kind of misunderstood about, you know, even in Japan, simplified Buddhism, you have a big enlightenment experience and everything's different. And we do, some people do have quite big or big enlightenment experiences that from then on they're different.

[14:06]

But it opens you to changing, but it doesn't change everything. And then you have to mature those changes. And we also have incremental enlightenments, which often we don't even notice. that are absorbed into our practice. So we can call any insight actually that actually changes how you function after that an enlightened experience. So these changes are also literally a kind of metabolic vitality that needs time for the channels in the

[15:20]

the effects to develop. And the effects of that need time to develop. Okay, someone else. Thank you, Matthias. Yes. Okay. He very kindly let you go first. Is creativity also an access to a non-conscious mind? You mean, when a person is creative, is it arising through non-consciousness?

[16:42]

Yes. Well, of course it depends what kind of creativity you're talking about. But when it's something new, you can't think yourself way too, but you let it happen, we can say it arises from a subtle consciousness or a field of non-consciousness which has its own way of functioning, working. And I mean, sometimes we liken creativity to intuition. And I would say the practitioner begins to find All their thinking is a flow of intuition.

[17:49]

Because generally an intuition feels like it's pressed into consciousness, sort of against consciousness' will or something like that. I had an intuition that this is the light. I didn't think my way to it was necessarily rational. I had an intuition. And what interests me about intuitions is people believe them. They think intuitions are more true than ordinary thinking. They have a feeling of truth about it. And that intuition of truth can be deceptive. Because the contrast is partly the sense of truth.

[19:06]

Weil der Kontrast ein Stück... The contrast is partly the sense of truth. The contrast creates a sense of truth to it. Also, es ist der Kontrast zum gewöhnlichen Denken, der dieses Gefühl, dass es wahr ist, dass die Intuition wahr ist, mit sich bringt. And nowadays, they never said it when I was young, but nowadays they say all the time, thinking outside the box. It's part of our move within our culture toward knowing there's another kind of thinking. It is part of our culture to know that there is another way of thinking.

[20:14]

But we're also trying to capitalize on other, you know, higher people who think outside the box. But it is the case that for the practitioner who is functioning from a bodily mind attentional stream, And not within the proscribed and prescribed structures of consciousness. It's sort of in a flow of what most people would call intuitive thinking. I hate to say these things in a way because it sounds like I'm a salesman. I'm trying to make Buddhism interesting.

[21:22]

Tsukiroshi really told me, do not make Zen sound too exciting. Yeah, we come to kind of promise and that causes the problem. then it becomes a kind of promise, and that leads to a problem. Yes, we will be able to say something. What I am very concerned about is the question of freedom. How free do I experience myself in my personal story? What really interests me about this topic of the personal narrative is the question of freedom. How free do I perceive myself to be within the narrative?

[22:25]

If I think about it more closely, I often find myself between two extremes, one that I consider very optimistic, I can design a lot, because I like psychology and psychotherapy. The other is a very paternalistic one, who says, actually there are a lot of predisposed, yes, but then I look at the work of formation, I look at transgenerational work with people that I do myself, and I think, then one thing comes in, someone is being moved, but he can maybe do it, he can make small changes, but the idea that they would do that is often If I think about it honestly, I feel that I usually go back and forth between feeling two different extremes about that question. The one extreme is that I feel, oh, I have

[23:28]

any choice in the world and i or i let's put it that way i can i can form most of what i'm doing i can form most of my life um and that's maybe the the extreme that is uh very much uh liked in psychotherapy in the sense of you are your you are the uh smith says this forge you can forge your own happiness or something yeah And the other extreme is a rather fatalistic one, and then that comes also from my impression from constellation work and transaction analysis and so forth, where I feel like a person is being lived through all the forces that act upon the person, more than that the person actually has much of a choice about living their lives.

[24:30]

And so then it seems like the only capacity a person can form is to observe one's life. It's transgenerational. Transgenerational. Transaction. Yeah, transgenerational. Yeah, I myself would avoid thinking in frameworks like that, either or frameworks. At each moment, we're in the at each moment we're in an immediacy and there's ingredients in that immediacy.

[25:33]

And the ingredients can be like constellated family situations and so forth. So you're not going to be free of those ingredients. The most basic attitude and practice is acceptance. So the first dynamic, but it's not just passive acceptance, the first dynamic is active acceptance, welcoming. And then you participate with those ingredients. You and the ingredients are all in the same field.

[26:37]

Now the main, the cinnabar, the main, the magic ingredients in alchemy which changes leads or lead into gold. I forgot what cinnabar was. It's something used in alchemy to... It's just a term. It means red, too. Is awareness. So the main thing I can say is that what we're doing, now that we're speaking about weaving, now we're speaking about our personal narrative. Okay, so we have a personal, we're a particular person, we have a story. Now, what we've added to that personal story is the concept of weaving.

[27:56]

That it wasn't woven fully in the past. It is in the process of being woven at the moment. You are the loom. dass es nicht vollständig in der Vergangenheit gewebt wurde, sondern dass wir jetzt uns inmitten des Prozesses des Webens befinden. Und du bist der Webstuhl. And you've inherited in your life the warp and the weft. Und du hast in deinem Leben den Schuss und die Kette geerbt. But you're the weaver. Okay. Now, the... The concept of weaving, now we can say, what do we add to the weaving? Now Zen as a style of practice, a particular lineage of practice, tries to add as little as possible.

[28:56]

Because we don't want to put you in the position of making the shoe fit. So we don't want to give you stages, step-by-step practice. So we could say we want to... What we'd like to do is only to weave awareness into the personal narrative. So we're not trying to change the ingredients. We're just trying to weave awareness into the ingredients. Are you following me so far? Okay. But the assumption is, and my experience is, that if you weave awareness into the personal narrative, so developing a bodily mind attentional stream,

[30:29]

That is now parallel to, let's say parallel to, the usual narrative stream. I'm trying to make this metaphorically clear enough that you can feel it and mentally, not you, anyone, can grasp it as a concept. Metaphors, like intuitions, contain a lot of information. So we can find a metaphor that you can feel or visualize, And you, in a mantric way, keep repeating that metaphor, bringing it into the minded stream.

[31:55]

That metaphor itself has a catalytic effect. as to the actual experience of widening your personal narrative to include a bodily mind attentional stream. So you're not thinking it. Say you're making a pot. You're a potter. And you use a wheel. Raku bowls, tea bowls, they aren't made with a wheel.

[32:57]

But if you're using a wheel, I'm sure your bodily posture affects the bowl as you're making it. So you're not adding anything and you're not trying to, you're seeing what your bodily posture does to the shape of the base or whatever it is. Insofern macht ihr gar nichts, sondern ihr versucht einfach zu schauen, welchen Einfluss eure Körperhaltung auf die Form der Vase oder was auch immer ihr herstellt, hat. And so you're discovering how this widening awareness, which begins to intertwine with your personal narrative. Und dann entdeckt ihr, wie dieses sich erweiternde Gewahrsein, das anfängt, mit eurer So in a way you really haven't added anything but awareness.

[34:05]

But the awareness increases your choice and makes you experience your ingredients with much more detail. So the ingredients remain the same, but they're now much more nuanced and complex. And you just trust this process of increased awareness. And you accept whatever happens. And it's usually you. Okay. You're not entirely satisfied. Okay. Yeah, but I don't know.

[35:17]

Okay, anyone else? Yes? What about our dreams? We are also weaving parts of our narrative in our dreams, and yet, while dreaming, we are outside of consciousness. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And what's happening in practice is the attentional stream begins to include dreaming and consciousness simultaneously. And you find the content of dreams is present in your consciousness when your attentional stream is wider than consciousness.

[36:21]

And one intentional part of Zen practice in relationship to dreaming Now it's impossible to completely resist interpreting dreams. Some dreams beg for interpretation. They hit you over the head with an interpretation. But in general, you try not to interpret. But you try to continue the feeling of the dream in your daily life.

[37:27]

So you let the dream, the feel of it, and sometimes you can pick particular, I don't know why I'm telling you all these things, you don't need to know all these things, but here I go again. And you probably already know these things. But one thing you can do is, when you wake up, stay partially awake for a while. And review the dream you had. And then pick out the parts you remember, phrases or visual images or something. And see if you can locate yourself back in the visual image and then in the dream. And sometimes you will find you can locate yourself back into the dream in a part you didn't dream yet, but was waiting to be dreamt.

[38:36]

And sometimes you will find that you can put yourself back to a point in the dream and then feel something that you have not dreamed of yet, but that has been waiting to be dreamed of. And that playing with when you're awake or when you're not quite awake or when you're asleep and when the dream, can the dream function in ordinary consciousness, that is beginning to weave the mind that dreams into the consciousness. And to do that when you're almost awake or when you're still asleep or something, Okay, so usually dream interpretation is we interpret our dreams in the service of consciousness and our personal narrative. Normalerweise, wenn wir Träume interpretieren, dann interpretieren wir sie in den Begrifflichkeiten des Bewusstseins und innerhalb unserer persönlichen Geschichte.

[40:00]

Manchmal ist es nützlich, das umzukehren und anzunehmen, dass wir nur bewusst sind, so dass wir Zutaten haben, damit wir träumen können. We're conscious in order to dream. And at the point at which you can begin to have teaching dreams, that's clearly the case. The dreams put it together more sensitively than thinking can. Okay, now what am I talking about here? Is this Buddhism? This is just ordinary waking and sleeping. that we all do along with our generic mother and oh well I don't know we won't go there but but only we what I brought in here only from a Buddhist point of view is a way of working with attention

[41:20]

I mean, the initial dynamic of practice is to accept, not predict. Die anfängliche Dynamik der Praxis besteht darin zu akzeptieren und nicht darin vorherzusehen. And the main instruction, we could say, is to bring attention to attention. Und wir könnten sagen, dass die Hauptinstruktion, die wichtigste Anleitung ist, Aufmerksamkeit zur Aufmerksamkeit. So I'm experiencing my attention to you as well as you. Also erfahre ich meine Aufmerksamkeit auf dich oder auf euch, genauso wie ich dich erfahre. So we're just taking ingredients we all have and using them in a way that can be enlightening.

[42:21]

Also benutzen wir einfach die Zutaten, die wir alle haben, und fangen an, sie auf eine Art und Weise zu verwenden, die erleuchtend sein kann. Okay. What else is new? Yeah. What is your name? Martin. Hi, Martin. Hi. I like your hair. Oh, okay. A couple of weeks ago, I was at the Congress where you were also... Were you there when I spoke? Yes. Oh, my goodness. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, really? I learned two things on that Congress. One thing is you talked about a constant stream of awareness. And I just tried it. How does it feel to drive a car, to meditate? So the one thing I learned is about the continuous stream of attention.

[43:28]

And that didn't let go of me anymore. Oh good, it's continuous. I kept trying it out during driving and all kinds of activities. During driving is a good place to have a continuous attention. And the second thing I learned is that it's not recommendable to watch TV in the moment of dying. Did I say that? No, no. I remember when she said that. That's right. That's what I found funny. I thought to myself, I don't want to practice this. Yeah, so you said you didn't try that. Yeah, yeah. Well, watching television doesn't cause you to physically die necessarily, but in other ways. Watching TV does not mean that you immediately die, but it kills you in other ways. Exactly, and I was very excited when I fell into the practice and realized that in the meditation I actually sometimes get into a state of an oceanic sense of unity.

[44:53]

The more I practice, the more I realize I come out of meditation and I am just as chaotic and with moral contradictions and all sorts of things. And the more I meditate, the more I become discreet. So I think it should get better. So with a lot of enthusiasm, I dove into practicing and found that the more I meditate, the more I can locate myself in some oceanic sense of unity. But then when I come out of meditation, then I still find the same old ambivalences, moral questionable attitudes and so forth. And the more I meditate, the more I'm noticing that discrepancy. And so now I'm wondering, isn't it supposed to get better rather than worse? Well, if it's been bad, it's good to know it.

[45:56]

Because then you can start dealing with the discrepancy. Isn't there an easy way out of it? No. We will all have an easy way out of it eventually. Yeah, I don't think we have to rush the easy way out. Yeah. Okay, Ellen? Yes. Thank you, Mark. How the heck did you get from the DBU, Goichi Buddhist Union talk, to here? Was it the Internet or something? Yes, of course. I tried to find out where I could get more words about that constant stream of... Oh, I see. All right. Well, you just found out. Well, I'm glad that you changed the place.

[46:59]

You didn't stay at Steinhäuserweg. Oh, that's right. I did get here, yeah. And those two people were willing to drive me somewhere, but they didn't invite me to stay. Yeah, for years I wouldn't let us have a website, but now we do, and so I guess it works if you're here. Absolutely. Ellen? I would like to come back to this gap between this affective-cognitive area, where what is unthought of before thinking

[48:01]

According to my experience, this is an area that I have called the most closed open area for me. Okay, that's enough. I would like to come back to this gap between the affective and cognitive way of knowing. And what did you call the other one, the affective-cognitive? The most closed, the most open. Yes, I'm not that far yet. You spoke of two sides of the spectrum. Yes, the thinking, the non-thinking before the thinking. Okay, yes, thank you. So the gap between the not thinking before thinking and the thinking. And so I've called this for myself the most open, closed,

[49:16]

If you have a better translation, say yes. For the affective part, the cognitive part. And the other area, this cognitive area, I actually call the most open, closed. So the affective part I call the most closed open. The most closed open. Yeah. Okay. And the cognitive part I call the most open closed. Okay. Why am I doing this? Why do I do this?

[50:30]

Everyone's wondering. Yes, we're all wondering. I thought about it because this gap is so important to the beginning, the middle and the end and to let go. I thought about it because this gap is so important in order to experience the beginning, the middle part, the end, and the release. If I take this area that seems incomprehensible, Okay, okay, I get it. Okay, so if the... If I call the non-graspable part the most closed open, then that's because this body is something entirely closed.

[51:55]

Yes, it's in this form, [...] this shape is in and of itself first of all something that's a closed system. Let's not worry about what you mean by this. That's up to you. But it is interesting, while this affective knowing is shut off by the television of cognitive knowing. So discursive thinking is a problem if you want to discover the non-conceptual stillness.

[53:08]

There's no question about that. What kind of stillness did you say now? Non-conceptual stillness. Okay, so while... Words used discursively are problematic in that way. Obwohl, wenn man Worte diskursiv verwendet, dann sind sie problematisch. Words used as attentional tools are very helpful. Sind Worte, wenn man sie als Aufmerksamkeitswerkzeuge benutzt, sehr hilfreich. Okay, so let me use one example from the two koans I was referencing in honor verb. And in Koan 98 of the Shoyu Roku, Sushan Ren asked Dongshan, please give me a word which does not yet exist.

[54:31]

Okay, just that statement is quite interesting. So already, if Nico and I are sitting here and we have some feeling that we're in a territory that's not discursive thinking, to acknowledge this feeling, I might say to Nico, please give me a word which does not yet exist. It's a way of acknowledging a feeling between us that doesn't have words. And then when Dongshan was asked that by Xu Shan, Dongshan said, no, no one would agree. Now I'm presenting this just because this is, for my mind, an extraordinary conversation.

[55:51]

What's going on? And we can try to wonder what's going on. Okay, so Dongshan says, no, no one will agree. So this is a way of responding by saying, your interest in your way of asking for a word for what we're feeling, which is not worded, It's a slight attachment to wanting this feeling to be able to come back to it, maybe with a word. But even if I could find a word, like, ah! No one would agree.

[57:11]

No one would understand what that word meant. Okay, so he says, yeah, I could, but no one would agree. So what's the point? This is so unique, it only exists now. So Sushant says, well, can you approach it then? And Dongshan says, approach it right now. And Sushant says, whether I can approach it right now or not, it can't be avoided. That's a classic teaching conversation. Create an assumed dynasty and put in the mouths of Tang Dynasty teachers. So it's a creation.

[58:13]

And a creation... No, I won't play that game. It's a... I'm sorry, I have a mind that I can't stop hunting, and I try to suppress it, because it's the lowest form of humor. That's a friend of mine who says. Even though... Dongshan and Sushan may have never had such a conversation. Within the context of the lineage, this kind of conversation with just this point does happen. So they've been stored for us in the wisdom literature, which is koans are a form of wisdom literature. But Words can be used to direct attention.

[59:41]

They're attentional tools. And my simplest example is, you can ask yourself, who am I? And you can ask yourself, what am I? And it's just two different words starting with W. A double U. So there's a pun there. Who and what are two U's? Sorry. But if you ask yourself, what am I? It's a different feeling. Who am I? So it's very useful sometimes to find a word which subtly directs your attention.

[60:45]

And it is very useful to find a word that subtly guides your attention. as I'm trying to use an originating stream of mind, or something like that. And we can also use the feeling that you can't word, but it's a feeling specific enough, you can use it as an attentional tool. So you can begin to have a vocabulary of feelings which are not words.

[61:57]

So I would use the vocabulary you're creating, which is both worded and feeling, and use it as long as it's useful and it's not discarded. But we don't have to share your vocabulary. No one would agree, and we all thought it was wonderful, though, but we didn't agree. I think it's now time to agree. It's the end of the day. Is it okay if we stop now? Thank you very much.

[62:34]

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