KCBS now once again here's Narcy now wait a minute George are you saying that you want me to cut you a piece of this triple chocolate cake before we do anything well I think that's why I made sure you had the knife in your hand but the sounder is playing the orchestra that gets lots of chocolate the orchestra has already finished George we're supposed to be on the air welcome back to Narcy and company on KCBS Wow did we make it? Oh what? Stan Bunger tomorrow morning is gonna come in here and find this board covered with chocolate and he's gonna be mad at me oh no no no we refuse to leave the studio that way because we'll all be in trouble all right we'll be we'll eat up the chocolate let's introduce our guest I'm just delighted to present Ed Brown Ed welcome to KCBS thank you very much Narcy I'm happy to be here I've enjoyed your show and it's a pleasure to talk with you and visit with you again thank you thank you it's been just too long that for sure as a matter of fact as I look at these breads I keep thinking about keep thinking about that sourdough starter that I wanted to get a couple of years ago from you guys and I just

[01:04]

never got I don't know I'm just gonna have to get back into anyway for you we're gonna get you some I'd love to love to try that but I am astonished at the variety of breads I remember going to the original Tassajara bakery out on Coal Street and you know there were a half dozen real heavy rich hearty whole grain breads oh that's the way we started out but you got everything here look at this stuff here is a country French bread a potato bread that's made in little tiny buns like that are all stuck together here's a dill bread made in the same shape a light rye bread an egg challah this chocolate cake that George has stopped talking I don't know I gave him a piece of cake and that's the last we heard from George this goes on and on we make actually three the bakery does three main areas the breads and there is a wide selection of yeasted breads the white breads have potato and eggs and different flavorings the cottage

[02:07]

cheese dill and then there's the whole wheat breads and whole wheat with millet and then there's the country French is a combination sourdough and yeasted and then there's a selection of sourdough breads and then second main area is the pastries and then there's the pastries is the croissants and muffins danishes and the third area we do actually a whole selection of cakes now and then in addition to all of this you're building a wholesale bakery so this is getting distributed in various places we we decided finally you know we thought for years as a virtue and staying small being honest you know making a good product and we finally decided that there's not really any virtue I mean I mean we wanted to keep a nice wholesome product but you're not gonna suddenly stop being honest because you're getting large don't worry me with that we finally decided we finally decided that we could become large and still make a good product in fact probably even a better product for one thing we're gonna have one of those big ovens the big deck ovens from France

[03:08]

Banger oven with the with the tiles with the brick tiles and steam in the ovens and so we'll be able to make much and actually improve on our sourdough that's wonderful additional space I mean we we are planning after years of working in this cave which is the back of the test our bread Baker we're gonna have a third-story plant with walls windows and we're gonna have happy bakers who are come to work enthusiastic and you know it'll be a actually the working conditions will be much improved and with the new equipment it will be not as physically demanding work have you ever visited Pala bakery in Paris no I haven't it's such a marvelous wonderful place they have these enormous brick ovens that extend way out under the street all right and you walk down this narrow stairway and it's where that you've descended halfway to hell because it is unbearably hot the bakers are wearing what best can be described as a as a very scanty pair of swimming trunks they're all men and I mean it's

[04:13]

just so hot they don't want any other clothes on than that and they scurry back and forth and these peels that must have Oh poles 20 feet long that reach and pull out these loaves and the smells and the the scene are absolutely surreal but we're gonna see if we can do that on the third floor well our special guest is Ed Brown from the Tassajara bakery believe me any question you ever had about baking bread and my best is certainly going to be able to answer and of course we have questions lined up as well from callers wanting other information and as we go to the phones we take a call from Dorothy in Sacramento hi Dorothy you're on KCBS I had a question regarding to Puerto Rican eggnog and are you familiar with it well now there's something that tells

[05:14]

me I should be familiar with it someone was talking about that during the holidays when I gave my recipe for Bill Larimore's eggnog did they call it cookie or cookie no they just call it Puerto Rican eggnog and my memory is that they pureed a couple of bananas and they make it with coconut milk coconut milk but weren't there some bananas also pureed in a blender that sort of thickened the whole thing not no no not the ones I've had okay so tell us about the one you've had okay my question is that it's you know this there's everybody has their own recipe I have found out in Puerto Rico and the question is condensed milk I can't seem to find it here in the state oh sure condensed milk is available it's under the Eagle brand that's it because they have told me it's not the same as Eagle brand well maybe it's not exactly the same as the brand they use but I can tell you I have seen Eagle brand condensed milk throughout the Caribbean the very same brand distributed

[06:18]

down there and it sure does get the same results I came up with a recipe for a Mexican cheese flan it was a custard that had cream cheese in it and they called for condensed milk and I thought gee anything you can do with condensed milk I can do better with fresh cream and boy it didn't work I put fresh cream in and I never did get the texture they had with that condensed milk so try that Eagle condensed milk I'm sure it's going to give you the richness you're talking about and you should be really pleased with that let's go to Santa Cruz for our next call and welcome Jim to KCBS hi I'm Fran Oh Fran hi I want to ask your guest about the country French bread and the greens cookbook and ask about replenishing the starter that I have left over when should I add more flour and water to that how many days after the first batch has been sitting this is after the after wait let's back up and pose the question again I made the

[07:20]

sourdough starter right for the country French bread made the bread and had some starter left over right so now that amount of starter that I have left over I imagine will need replenishing in a few days because I'm not going to be making bread for well another week or so a week or so would be fine you don't need to replenish it if it's just a week or so well you know if you're if you're starting out and you mix up your bread dough and then before you finish it you want to take out and replenish the starter right so I just I just wanted to keep this alive the part that I have now so that I can add it to the new batch of dough right yeah I just would keep it I keep it in the refrigerator and until the next batch of bread okay and just use that and if I don't want to use it up well I yeah I would take this but I use do you just take out some of the starter yeah to start your bread yeah but then do you yeah okay if you're taking out some of the starter you could mix in some more flour and water into

[08:23]

the start of the remains okay and how often should you do that if you can't use it right away well I'm not sure but I think you may be doing a little bit differently than I do I would use I'd to usually take all the starter and then make a sponge with the bread and then before I add the rest of the flour and oil and salt to the bread I'd take some of that oh I just become the you know the whole sponge which has been started I take some of that out to replenish the starter so in other words you don't have a separate starter that keeps percolating by itself right time you use it all of your starter becomes part of your total sponge right and then you extract some of that sponge and put it away so that what you're before the oil and salt sure and so in other words what you're really doing then is replenishing the starter by mixing it into the whole batch and ascent is a whole batch and now taking some out right very good well there's a perfect solution for you you know I got a sourdough starter from the chef at the Stanford Court because they have such an incredibly sour loaf and I

[09:24]

was not able to get to it for a few days so I put it in the refrigerator it absolutely destroyed the leavening power of it I mean there's was so sensitive and they bake bread daily never refrigerated they don't leave it no they just leave this bucket in the warm kitchen temperature so it taught me that there are starters and never know right you never know which one is gonna behave which way where did that music come from that's what the orchestra was supposed to play because we're gonna take a look at the weather now in your Bay Area weather forecast on KCBS which calls for clear tonight with lows from the 40s to 50s and winds out of the north northeast from 5 to 15 miles per hour stronger gusts over the East Bay Hills sunny and mild tomorrow with highs from the mid 60s to mid 70s and the same goes for Wednesday right now it's 53 degrees at SFO 69 degrees in Oakland quite a spread 59 in San Rafael 55 in San Francisco there must be something wrong with this machine that says 69 in

[10:25]

Oakland can't be that warm over there but on your radio we do know what it is and that's 74 KCBS and Narsi and company will continue right after this what can you do about the bugs that you find around your house or your garden join us as we find out tomorrow afternoon on KCBS this is Jan black inviting you to be with us as we look at the pests that are causing problems for Bay Area residents right now also tomorrow how one woman overcame the trauma of being a battered wife Jan blacks journal tomorrow afternoon 1 to 3 news and more on 74 KCBS and taking a look at the Bay calendar what's in the future for relations between the US and Japan here from former Japanese Prime Minister that's Yashiro Nakasone Friday night in San Francisco sponsored by the Asia Foundation for reservations you can call 982 4640 every kid needs love and attention aid to adoption of special kids ask works to find parents to adopt

[11:28]

children who aren't lucky enough to have that love many of the children ask places have physical disabilities or emotional problems sometimes they're older than the usual adopted child and many are minority children all ask services including support after adoption are free single men and women are eligible as are couples call ask in Oakland at 451 1748 a community message from news 74 KCBS and we're back on Narci and company on KCBS with your host Narci David I'm George Rask our guest in studio this evening Ed Brown from the Tassajara bakery and we're taking questions and calls of course about bread-making but anything else that's on your mind as well well what's on my mind George is that I never have heard what happened after you tasted some of that triple chocolate cake well I just sort of sat over here and turned the microphone smack my lips Ed there was a there was a nut like quality yeah it has ground almonds in it oh that's it so this is very much like the Queen Mother cake I yeah I used to make a Queen of Sheba cake yeah there's hardly any any flour in there at all yeah dense and rich and chocolatey with the most

[12:32]

beautiful little chocolate decorating job on top it's wonderful sweet Williams right in the middle of it too where are these breads available breads and cakes I think the the the breads are available of course everything's available at the bakery and then also a greens restaurant down at Fort Mason and I think the breads are also at the real food stores and and I know they're fairly recently the Macy's cellar yes the Macy's cellar has just added them for sure well it's to the phones we have a call from Gay and Benicia hi gay you're on KCBS see you have a great show thank you I have a question for mr. Brown we make the fermented raisin rolls my husband and I and we're having a problem with how you replenish the starter because in the book it says you have to let the dough sit 20 minutes after kneading in the flour and then replenish the starter and it's already seems to be like you know regular solid bread dough and it's awfully hard to store it stir back into a starter how do you do that well I'm

[13:35]

not sure I think that may be what we were just discussing with the last caller because we we put all the starter into the into the bread and then take and then take out a portion to refill the starter container yeah but this your recipe actually says but it's the you need in all your flour and I see and let it sit and then replenish your stuff well have things changed a little bit maybe since you wrote the book have you modified that use of the sourdough I can't remember exactly but generally I may have I can't remember how I wrote that recipe exactly because I would generally take out the starter before all the flour was was added in yeah yeah I think so yeah the fermented raisins are a nice addition to the wonderful hey how come I've missed this one it's a fermented raisin bread and it ferment so long that the raisins actually start for many this yeah the sourdough raisin loaf or roll and we continue we keep actually some raisins

[14:41]

going which are for many and we take out some of those and mix it in with the sourdough starter and in with the sourdough raisin roll how about that there's there's another one for one of my weekends in the revised bread book all right I'm gonna look that one up David in Burlingame good evening you're on KCBS to ask you about some bagels that I'm trying to make I find that the outside gets nice and brown and hard but the insides are raw what am I doing incorrectly yeah well generally that would mean that your oven temperatures bit high yeah recipe calls for 375 that doesn't sound too high it might be you just your oven because 375 it sounds like would come out all right uh-huh so you think my oven has to be checked your oven might be running the high you can always just get a thermometer from the you know and keep it in your oven and check it yeah you know the other thing to keep in mind is before you go calling a repair person to service it the oven manufacturers feel

[15:42]

if they can be within a plus or minus 25 degrees of the target that they've satisfied their their obligations so you can be off as much as 50 degrees from the temperature somebody else is specifying in their cookbook when you're making something before you do that just try lowering the temperature 25 degrees you may find that does it pretty well we take our next call from Dave and Walnut Creek oh thanks and I'm interested in taking some bread baking classes in this area we're especially in Walnut Creek hopefully the last drive very far I see where do you think I could go well I am not not really sure about out in Walnut Creek there are class schools here in the city also I'm going to be doing in April a month of classes which will be include bread making soups and salads and a woman in Mill Valley organizes my classes and I can give you her do you

[16:45]

want me to give it over more I mean you're you're doing bread classes I'll be doing the bread classes in April coming up in April that guru himself are you kidding I'm doing four or five classes a week and the person if you would call Leslie Leslie her name is actually Leslie Leslie her first name is Leslie and she married a Frenchman whose last name was Leslie so this is not a misprint and her phone number is 3 8 1 5 1 0 5 and she would appreciate if you called between 9 and 5 it's 4 1 5 and she's in Mill Valley and I do I will be doing one of my classes is in Berkeley oh good which it would be pretty quick for you it's on Tuesday evenings in Berkeley oh that'd be great yeah I look forward to seeing you answer for everybody let's give that number one more time 3 8 1 5 1 0 5 if you want to find out about the cooking classes that Ed Brown is doing and the next between 9 and 5 the next series will be in April to be four weeks of classes and soup salads and breads all right we go

[17:46]

next to Stan in Oakland hi Stan you're on KCBS oh yeah hi RC I had two questions one for you I am interested in growing a apple tree in a whiskey half a whiskey barrel I have and I wondered what kind of variety of Apple you thought me might be good I do mostly baking gee whiz I think if I were going to be planting any apple trees I would check with the Living Tree Center and and get one of the old varieties of apples that are no longer available through a regular nursery they're located in Bolinas and here's another phone number for you 8 6 8 2 2 2 4 and they have something in excess of 60 or 70 varieties of apple trees that they have propagated and you could get some of those magnificent old timers that are just not available in ordinary shops and gee there's some

[18:47]

wonderful unusual things let them advise you based on exactly where you're going to plant it and what kind of growing conditions you have in your yard in Oakland and and that would be the best one that sounds great what about the I think it's Fuji or Fiji Apple oh yeah that's Fuji Apple it's a particular Apple crunchy one the pear Apple right is that the pear is that like it's a it's common it's been crossed bread to have a kind of a pear flavor and texture to it as well as being like an apple uh-huh that might be a baby there's a lot of places in California it's been grown now baking that that really should in other words I was thinking of the Granny Smith is there any other type that would be particularly good for baking well my favorite of the commercial apples for baking is the Pippin that's just without any question I prefer it over the Granny Smith for sure okay I had a question for Ed about bread I'm an old Tassajara bakery fanatic I used to go there quite a bit you used to have a good

[19:50]

Jewish bread that you cooked on one day I think was Thursday or Friday and Friday well we've still making a challah that we sell on Fridays oh that is so good it's a challah bread yeah all right if you insist while you ask your question George you and I better taste this challah just to see if we could give it our approval I think we'll do that while we take a short break on Narcy and Company and give out the phone number one more time it's 800-228-5227 800-228-KCBS we'll be right back this has got to be one of the best spring break vacation bargains going for a limited time the Dana Point Resort Southern California's newest and finest seaside resort located one cove south of Laguna Niguel is offering special three-day two-night spring break packages at way below their normal seasonal rates built on a lush green bluff high above Dana Point Harbor and designed so every room has a stunning ocean view the Dana Point Resort offers so much to see do and enjoy two pools complete health club and spa croquet tennis parasailing water skiing boating

[20:51]

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[21:56]

rain than anywhere in the Bay Area our exclusive gold coat system ten times thicker than ordinary paint is perhaps the most significant advance in paint technology over the last decade so good that we back it with a 10 to 15 year limited warranty you can save more money by signing up to paint now and we'll do the job at the soonest rise bill for a free estimate call seven seven seven one two three four that's Armstrong painting three sevens and a one two three four welcome back to Narsi and company on KCBS I'm George Rask our guest in studio Ed Brown from Tassajara bakery our director this hour is Sabina Ben and we're ready to go back to the phones all right let's take a call from Chris in Hayward hi Chris you're on KCBS there I have a question that's actually two parts the first is what is a good way to marinate spare ribs so you don't get that taste that somebody just put barbecue sauce over the ribs well and the other part was what is a good barbecue sauce recipe that maybe you

[22:59]

know or have a good idea about well we have a spare rib we have a barbecue recipe in the file that we'd be happy to mail out to you and as for the flavor on the ribs the main reason that I don't put the barbecue sauce on the spare ribs while they're marinating is that then when you bake it they tend to char because there's just all of that sauce on the surface so what I want to do is season it with a seasoned salt and then if you really want more flavor to get into it make a marinade with something like oh what if you pureed some garlic and onions in a blender with some white wine a little salt and pepper put that on and let that marinate for a couple hours and then put it on the grill and start baking it so you've got all those flavors cooking into it and finally brush on the barbecue sauce towards the end because if you put the barbecue sauce

[24:00]

on from the beginning it's going to scorch and give you some really unpleasant kind of characteristics that I don't think you'll be too pleased with okay thank you very much Shirley thanks for the call let's go to Elizabeth in San Francisco hi Elizabeth you're on KCBS I know at one time the bakery was run exclusively by the San Francisco Zen Center and the people that worked there were Zen students, is that still the case? no it's it's changed a little bit the Zen Center has set up a separate corporation now to to run its businesses so the Zen Center itself can concentrate more on the meditation practices and so the so the the separate corporation now that runs the businesses now can hire the best people they can find who want to who who's who that we feel share in our spirit and energy to make a good product it pleases everyone okay thank you you're welcome we go next to Janie in Cuerda Madera good evening you're on

[25:04]

KCBS hi Darcy I enjoy your program so much I've listened for years this is the first time I've taken time out to call you well thank you the question is as long as bread is the topic tonight it's been years and years and it was one of my mother's favorites of salt rising bread salt rising bread have you ever done anything I have I've never done a salt rising bread so I can't did your mother used to make it oh no she used to get in a special bakery and they would make it like on Thursday uh-huh and it was almost like a French bread but it had a real buttery but yet it was grainy also it was very very special right there's a sourdough starter they make that has cornmeal in it which is probably what gives you that graininess and the way it gets the name salt rising bread is that they heat up a container full of salt and set the loaf down into it to proof and the salt holds the heat and on a cold winter night out in the

[26:09]

in the backwoods that would be an ideal way for it to proof because you certainly didn't heat up the house in those days and this gave you a perfect environment that kept it warm enough for the loaf of dough to proof I believe there's a recipe for one in Bernard Clayton's book and there's also recipe in Marion Cunningham's book the Fanny Farmer cookbook is the one that Marion Cunningham wrote well thank you very very much sure let's take a call next from Sophia in Fremont hi Sophia yes could you please tell me why I have trouble finding pure almond extract in local supermarket all they have is imitation flavor oh boy that really is frustrating if you're in Fremont I don't know places out near you but if you get into Oakland certainly rattle grocers and the housewives market would be a couple of natural places for for that I

[27:21]

think that would work out pretty well I mean for sure you could get that George let's see if we could squeeze in a quick call from Catherine in Castro Valley hi Catherine you're on CBS I got two questions one I'll make it quick I want the recipe for orange marmalade and then I want to ask you this not long ago I talked to some people over there and asked if they knew anything about beer seed and they don't now a long time ago when I lived down in Alabama a small town in there and everybody in town had beer seed well that's that's a new one on me Catherine but I will look it up for you in the meanwhile if you'll drop us a self-addressed stamped envelope we'll certainly get the marmalade recipe out to you our thanks to Ed Brown our special guest this evening we could have talked two hours about pleasure yeah it would have been fun it's been wonderful and we sure love these breads we're gonna have to get you back soon Darcy and company has been sponsored in part tonight by Beckerman studios and by Armstrong painting our thanks to

[28:23]

Sabina Bannon who's been our director for this hour and we invite you to stay tuned for night beat here on KCBS with Robert McCormick four hours of information packed sometimes controversy packed programming right here on the news station in San Francisco San Francisco and the Bay Area KCBS it's eight o'clock CBS News I'm Mike Moss we're on the verge of something big in politics the first almost national presidential primary super Tuesday 20 states most but not all of them in the south the biggest prizes are Florida Massachusetts and would soon be making monkeys of the generals of the army as for me no Carl he was a fiend in human form who hoped to provoke the intervention of the American banks and thereby make his corrupt and abominable regime secure I

[29:24]

ventured to inquire of the doctor if there were not some danger that his goldfish globe of a hideaway would be discovered not much he said the army is hunting for us but the army is so stupid as to be virtually idiotic the police know where we are but they believe we're going to win and they want to keep their jobs afterwards however three days later a dashing colonel in Santa Clara was leading his men in a grand assault upon Jose Miguel and after ten minutes of terrific fire and deafening yells the Cuban Hindenburg hoisted his shirt upon the tip of his sword and surrendered he did not have to take his shirt off for the purpose it was already hanging upon a guava bush for he had been preparing for a siesta in his hammock Jose Miguel was brought to Havana the next morning chained up in a hearse and the palace press agents announced in a series of 10

[30:28]

or 15 communique that he would be tried during the afternoon and shot at sunrise the next morning the colleagues robbed of their chance to see his capture now applied for permission to see him put to death and somewhat to ours again and again the next and after three days no more colleagues showed up at the gate it was then announced by the palace literati that president Menocal had commuted the sentence to solitary confinement for life in a dungeon on the chaos de las doce leguas off the south coast where the mosquitos were as large as bullfrogs along with the confiscation of all the culprit's property with a real personal or mixed and the perpetual loss of his civil rights if any but even this turned out to be only tall talk for president Menocal was a very humane man

[31:29]

and pretty soon he reduced Jose Miguel's sentence to 50 years and then to 15 and then to 6 and then to 2 soon after that he wiped out the jugging altogether and substituted a fine first of 1 million dollars then of 250 thousand dollars then a forty thousand dollars the common belief was that Jose Miguel was enormously rich but this was found to be an exaggeration when I left Cuba he was still protesting that the last and lowest fine was far beyond his means and in the end he was let off with the confiscation of his yacht a very small craft then laid up with engine trouble when he died in 1921 he had resumed his old place among the

[32:32]

acknowledged heroes of his country 20 years later Menocal joined him in Valhalla and I have a surprise for you what I didn't mention is that I think about 20 17 years later Mencal joined both of them now most of you know that he was a lifelong atheist but he did say once all serious argument should be conducted on the presumption that your opponent is as decent a man as you are and maybe right and when he was asked what would happen if he found himself in heaven he said if I ever do fetch up with the 12 Apostles I shall say gentlemen I was wrong well it's my delight to tell you that he was wrong and I have proof of it in a this I

[33:33]

think is really a scoop I feel I must read it to you because it's a cable from making which arrived overnight dateline Valhalla September 12th 1980 and it's we've beaten the networks and even the Washington Post it's addressed to Alfred a Knopf let me say right now Alfred who is his oldest living friend shared the same birthday with making and I'd like to hear just a little resonance as they literary critics now say for the fact that the man who gave engineered making his great fame in print anyway is Alfred a Knopf 88 years old today I I hope Alfred will be in in Baltimore tonight all his marbles are rattling as

[34:40]

effectively as ever but I think he's discovered it's Bernard Shaw said that the tragedy of old age is that the knees give out before the brains well anyway this is absolutely on the level it's by interruption of a BBC satellite but I got it this morning and it's dateline Valhalla September the 12th 1980 for Alfred a Knopf care of National Press Club Washington DC and or Belvedere Hotel Baltimore Maryland USA there has been an interminable strike raging up here of mercury and his couriers so we've only just had the reminder that your birthday and mine is being celebrated first at the National Press Club a compliment for which I cannot restrain a modest blush and then in my native city at the Belvedere Hotel which in my time was nothing better than a rest home for bankers wives fatigued after expeditions in search of tea trays and votes for

[35:43]

Warren Gamaliel Harding upon hearing that you are already 18 years beyond the span assigned to you by our computers I retired post haste to a chapel where I pray hourly that as the final acidosis prepares to overwhelm you you will not succumb to the treachery of George G Nathan who like Voltaire feeling the first twinges of the ultimate bellyache called in a Catholic priest unlike Voltaire however Nathan did not kick him out of the house the moment he began to feel better for all the ceaseless publicity of your bishops things are not much better up here than they were on your own sorry planet as merely one example of our God-given talent for sweetness and light one Louis Armstrong arrived here a few years ago and set up a rival Union against the tutelers who

[36:49]

have for centuries paid their dues to Gabriel this jurisdictional squabble is still unsettled in spite or perhaps because of the arbitrating genius of the incorrigible John L Lewis every Sabbath we are required to attend services at which the lessons are read by Roosevelt the second who I regret to say retains the fluting tenor warble which lulled the Republic into coma for 13 dreadful years golf courses are beginning to defile the heavenly pastures since the arrival of Robert Tyre Jones jr. but I have to admit that he is a gentleman and is happy to leave the captaincy of the club to Mary Queen of Scots who claims she first wielded the ridiculous sticks at the age of two you will be dismayed

[37:50]

to hear that Freud was wrong in imagining that angels revert to the undifferentiated sexuality of babyhood the boys and girls are frisking as lustily as ever up here the women's lib movement is well underway under the joint presidency of Carrie nation and Eleanor Roosevelt and our Saturday nights are racked by male chauvinist protest meetings regularly held outside the tents of Strindberg Casanova and John Barrymore I am grieved to report that as publishers turn into investment bankers very few of them are arriving here Benjamin Franklin Benjamin Franklin is accordingly a very lonely old cuss spending most of his time sorting typefaces with Johann Gutenberg when he's

[38:55]

not brewing up electrical storms over the Caribbean but there are compensations and agreeable surprises there are no priests or other members of the cloth hereabouts and not a single Pope it appears that centuries ago St. Peter our superintendent put out a bull proclaiming the professional do-gooders the clergy in particular are all guilty of the cardinal sin they spent their earthly mission warning everybody else about namely spiritual pride in consequence we are pleasantly denied the company of Calvin John Knox father Coughlin Cardinal Spellman and the Reverend dr. Thomas Woodrow Wilson by the same token applied to secular matters there are also no professors no chalky pedagogues not a PhD in sight the presumption being that since we are here forever we shall all catch each

[40:00]

other out in time and there's no point in having pedants around who pretend that one man is more learned than another I should warn you to arrange to bring with you with the end tale of your splendid seller of near Steiners Hochheimers and Johannesburgers the highly touted nectar is a sickly glucose liquid fit only for decanting at White House banquets there are those who have your welfare in mind I should explain that Alfred Knopf started the house of Knopf and his logo was a Russian wolfhound a boar's eye Darwin told me the other day that he's working with the Wright brothers on a project to try and fit out a boar's eye with a pair of wings I would end this garrulous greeting with the usual subscription God bless you all were it not that the number one man if indeed he exists never appears he said to live eternally in the inner office working on his cost accounting

[41:06]

his chief greeter is his son who alarms the newly arrived Union Leaguers Episcopalians and the occasional daughter of the American Revolution by turning out to be a Jew he is too pious for my taste but I must say that on occasion he can perform a neat trick of changing the waters of the country club lake into Schloss Johannesburg in 1949 give my greetings to the reporters present as also to any gentleman from the New York Times we get their airmail edition from time to time and I have to say that it along with most American newspapers has gone into a sorry decline once they started to pack the paper with daily

[42:11]

supplements bearing such nauseating titles as home leisure knitting baking and the like I humbly suggest the Institute of Friday supplement called simply news there are those of us Alfred who will give you a roaring welcome but take your time old friend as I say heavens not what it's cracked up to be right now it's raining yours in Christ HLM and we'll now respond to questions from our audience well I say we have time for a few questions after a very fine address the first question

[43:30]

states where in American journalism given the rather chicken attitude of most US papers would HL feel most at home today on the Manchester Guardian I think which as I must say is no longer a newspaper but it's a magazine a very salty and sassy opinion I think you'd be happy there but of course the libel laws have changed though I must I looked the other I talked to a lawyer the other day and said what would happen to anybody right you know all right his distaste for democracy he knows damn well as Sean you that in any other system he'd be in the jug within two weeks if you saw this in the paper today you know presidents Woodrow Wilson he said a pious fraud now you know fraud my lawyer said that that's tricky then he's followed by Harding well you've all

[44:34]

read about what the what he said about Harding this his prose resembled nothing more than a string of wet sponges followed by Coolidge of the epitaph was while he reigned there were no thrills but neither were the headache he had no ideas and was not a nuisance and then when Hoover came in somebody said well at least banking we haven't got Coolidge and he said yes you have you got a fat Coolidge and then Roosevelt came in and what he said he couldn't abide Roosevelt on it and he called him the number one crooner and it was in fact out of Roosevelt that he slapped on that label about all broadcasters having perfume tonsils and when I asked him when he couldn't write but he still had his marbles in 1955 how about Stevenson and he said my god another crooner and Eisenhower he thought probably as good a soldier president as you could ever have and

[45:40]

then I tried out my I said how do you feel about MacArthur some people told me that making was senile he wasn't senile he said General MacArthur well he said he's a dreadful old fraud but he appears to be fading satisfactorily questioner states that a great lady and recently deceased National Press Club member Gretchen Hood was a friend of Macon did you know mrs. Hood during your association with with him and if so you comment on it no I did not know mrs. Hood unless she sat on the other side of making at about eight conventions because I the Guardian had a very very close association with the Baltimore Sun papers because of a reason I

[46:42]

don't know even if mr. Patterson knows but in the 1848 revolution two brothers left Germany one of them as sensible emigrants always did didn't put them all in one basket one brother went to Manchester one brother went to Baltimore the Manchester brother founded the Queen's College which subsequently became the University of Manchester and the other one founded Baltimore Sun Papers so through that sentimental connection I always worked out in the old days out of the Sun Papers office I'm sorry he gave me my birth date you understand I arrived here as a child prodigy and I think when I started on the Guardian I was nine but I don't remember mrs. Hood it was really mostly professional that I had with him and then with one or two other newspaper men but and then mainly in the long correspondence which started in 1933

[47:42]

when I was doing American linguistics at Harvard on the language that's what that's what started so it was either that or seeing him in the back room at Shell houses which I'm sorry here is just closed and then seeing him covering events if Mekin could comment on the energy situation what would he say well somebody asked me what would he say about I would think everybody from from presidents of the last 20 years what would he say about present three-way choice and about energy too I can only say as time would say or used to say backward reels the mind knows only God would you comment on the casting of Gene Kelly as HL Makin in the

[48:57]

movie inherit the wind yes I will I may that by the way was a very cleverly bowed to the rise version of the actual question and I agree with it in its original uncensored form well I am an admirer of Gene Kelly but not in that role and not in any role that not of any act I've seen play Makin in the inherit the wind version on the stage and is something I tried to point out in an essay in a book I wrote called six men there's a long essay on Makin which Dick Strout is going to read tonight because he asked me if I'd ever met Makin and the whole point of that essay is to point out the enormous contrast between the public figure and the public reputation and the

[49:59]

private man this is not as uncommon Bernard Shaw was an extremely cool I once served on a committee at BBC spoke in English committee with Shaw for four years he was a courtly old Irish gentleman so was James Joyce Makin the door used to rattle at Holland Street with Makin's enemies clergy politicians senators outraged people of all kinds and when they got there they were totally disarmed to find this gentle watery-eyed mild courteous man they didn't really understand until they met him and sat down with him and he gave them a drink the force of his saying once to Upton Sinclair that I prefer to see an argument fought like that of two gentlemen fighting a duel instead of a sailor cleaning out a waterfront saloon and that's what he was very much like in private so you see the

[51:03]

trouble is with I've seen Makin I've seen somebody do a one-night Makin and what you get is a vulgar cigar-chewing growling what they do is just take all the windiest and the most verbose Makin prose and bark it out of people for absolutely no relation to the Makin in life what was Makin's feeling towards Will Rogers and how well did he know him I talked that I mentioned that one time he didn't know him very well and he thought he was a hypocrite because the Makin said any man who says I've never met a man I don't like should be banished from the Republic do you believe that the writings of WC Braun the iconoclast influenced the young Makin no no he's made quite clear who

[52:13]

influenced him and influenced him for a long time for the worst first Nietzsche then Shaw and worst of all Ambrose Bierce I think he got from Ambrose Bierce this business of being shockable at all times and all costs he outgrew it of course as you can see when you get down to the the very late stuff and especially the classic is autobiography happy days but he did say in the end the book published posthumously something nobody he said nobody's noticed what is the essential thing that I've been working towards which is to say as clearly and lucid as possibly what I believe it doesn't matter what my beliefs are but you should never be in the slightest doubt of my meaning and I got this he said from the greatest writer of English prose in the 19th century th Huxley moving away from making for a second while we have you here questioner asked

[53:20]

would the election of Ronald Reagan mark the historical end of New Deal liberalism well I think since Ronald Reagan was one of the great advocates and idols of New Deal liberalism you'd have to ask him I'd come back again questioner asked whether it states that Alistair is not your everyday first name and asked whether you have a whether you have a nickname or what do your friends call you I have an everyday name which is Alistair I have another everyday name like Ronald Dutch Reagan is it he wasn't christened Dutch I guess no I was because Alfred Alistair cook and I must say the only time I've ever been called Al is when I've

[54:24]

played golf on strange courses with unknown pros before before asking you one final question we'd like to present you with a certificate of appreciation from the National Press Club and also since you have a tie from your last appearance here this is a National Press Club jacket and as a final question do you have any plans for any upcoming a new television series you can tell us about I think this is blasphemy in a in a talk on making because as

[55:29]

he tells you we've all got perfume tonsils well we have a new series of masterpiece theater and when you do it I do it about six months ahead this is I would say however a very good season because it has a lot of four episodes five episodes it starts two weeks now I think with crime and punishment which is four episodes then five episodes of Pride and Prejudice which is marvelous because the adaptation was done by Faye Weldon who is a hell of a novelist in her own right the next one is the is a series of five that has won every prize in Europe it's testament of youth Vera Britain's account of her girlhood and young womanhood through the First World War which people had forgotten about till BBC took three women one to adapt one to direct one to produce and did it and Vera Britain some of you may know was the mother of Shirley Williams who they say

[56:31]

will be the next woman Prime Minister since there's rule in England that you can't have a man anymore you know that you have been listening to another of National Public Radio's series of programs from the National Press Club today's guest speaker has been broadcaster and journalist Alistair Cook speaking primarily about his late friend and colleague HL Mencken our technical director today is Dennis Herndon and from Washington DC I'm Karin Husshagen this program was made possible by an unrestricted events coverage fund supported by grants from the Mobile Corporation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting this is NPR National Public Radio join us next week as we continue to explore the making and the effect of print and electronic

[57:36]

media here on Information Radio KALW San Francisco next week Foxfire an examination of the success of these celebrated books on October 30th storytelling in the African tradition that's all part of our multimedia information issue series here on Information Radio I'm Cristiano Basso sitting in for Bob Clark the time is one minute after nine good evening and welcome to Front Row Center I'm Bonnie Weiss your host and director of Musical

[58:36]

Theatre Lovers United a club for Broadway and Hollywood musical buffs well tonight we have in our studio the star of the American Conservatory Theatres production of the Pulitzer Prize winning musical Sunday in the Park with George this is the man who plays the title role of George Seurat the French Impressionist painter Mr. Jeff Keller hi hi and welcome to Front Row Center thank you Jeff we've played the original cast album on our show and we play a lot of Sondheim so I think listeners are familiar with the plot of the show so I'd like to go right into asking you about the character of George especially since you played the role on Broadway and you're now playing at ACT and under Laird Williamson's direction do you interpret the character any differently quite a bit actually there seems to be more emotion more heart in this particular production and I think that was probably a conscious choice on the director I'm not sure what his reasons were but I enjoy this version quite a bit more

[59:39]

there's a lot more passion and since we are dealing with a love story basically a story about love of a man and a woman and a man and his art I think it fits nicely to have a little more emotion so it says you're really enjoying yes enjoying the role do audiences respond any differently to the show or two elements in the show than they did on Broadway I think it's pretty much pretty much the same mm-hmm mm-hmm and another question I have about that I understand that that I just said the romantic elements of the show are heightened under William Williamson's direction and you think that that works it's quite a bit like that absolutely what are some of the changes in that area a lot of very subtle things the relationship between George and Dot his mistress there's a lot more outward signs of love subtle things that you really have to see

[60:48]

yeah I saw I one thing that I like what they do with the hat the hat bears much more importance absolutely in the dots hat it's his connection to her that he holds on to as long as he can that's a lovely touch yeah I really enjoyed that another question I'm sure our listeners would want to know when you play the role on Broadway were you actually directed by Lapine and Sondheim you did the role what was that like working with them it was wonderful I mean you know they're both brilliant men and but basically when it comes down to it it's just like working with anyone Laird or any director another question I think people really curious about your voice has sort of a deeper richer quality than Mandy Patinkin who originated the role on Broadway he's a very high quality man [...]

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