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Today I want to talk about what is a teacher and what is a student.
It seems like at times I notice a fair amount of confusion about what is a teacher and what
is a student.
So I thought I'd talk about it.
I usually talk about something else when I talk.
It might turn out to be the same thing.
But just to try it out, I'll tell you a story, first of all, about a number of years ago
at Centenary, we were sitting sadhana in the morning, when Suzuki Roshi was still alive.
And you know, usually we would sit silently the whole period.
This was, I think, a session.
In this particular period of meditation, Suzuki Roshi started talking, and I don't remember
so much of what he said, but he said several things about teacher and student.
Like, if you think I'm the teacher, you're making a mistake.
If you think you're the student, that's not right.
Sometimes the teacher bows to the disciple.
Sometimes the disciple bows to the teacher.
If you want to be a good teacher, you have to be a good student.
If you want to be a good student, you have to be a good teacher.
He said something like this.
After a while, he peeped up on his feet more or less, took his little stick and hit everybody
one after another.
The first person he hit, he said,
Who is the teacher?
Bam!
Who is the next one?
Who is the student?
Bam!
After a while, he ran out of breath, and all he could do was hit.
I mentioned this story to wake you up a little bit.
See what you think.
While you sit here, we sit here together.
The bird chirps.
There's the sensation of your breathing.
There's sensations of your weight.
On the cushion, on the floor, on your chair.
Are they your teacher or not?
Do they say something to you or not?
You can see right away with very simple, moment-by-moment experience.
If you want to be a good student, you have to be a good teacher.
If you want to be a teacher, you have to be a good student.
If you want the sound of the birds, the sensation of your breath,
the physical sensations of your sitting,
if you want them to speak to you, you have to listen.
Otherwise, you know, after a while, things have to scream to get your attention.
So, you know, we take our own good health often times for granted.
One time, I was at a convalescent hospital.
And many people there said,
Oh, you're such a young man.
You have your health.
You should be very grateful for your health.
I was never grateful for my health.
Now I'm old and I'm sick.
And if I was just healthy, I would be so grateful.
But what about when you have it?
Then you need something else.
So, you know, people come to Zen Center.
People come to various groups looking for teaching, looking for a teacher.
I mentioned there's some confusion about it.
And recently I was thinking about it.
It reminded me of my experience in writing a cookbook
and sending the manuscript to New York.
And you know, in our cookbook, we put many little clues.
Cook the onions until they're translucent.
You know how onions start out kind of white and then you cook them for a while
and they get translucent?
Our editor wrote, how long?
And we wrote, she also didn't like, you know, the construction, you.
If you are using fresh pasta, she crossed it out.
If fresh pasta is being used.
Well, how would fresh pasta be?
You know, you walk into the kitchen.
You discover that fresh pasta is being used.
And then you react accordingly.
So we had a lot of discussions with her.
And this is true all the way through the book.
Season to taste with vinegar.
How much?
I thought, well, if it says season, it's not another ingredient.
No, it's a seasoning.
You add a little bit and you see what does a little bit do.
See if you can taste it.
So towards the end of the book finally it said,
Cook the vegetables until they are as tender as you like.
How long?
How do we know?
This is what she said, you know.
Questioning the way we had written this book.
And I think often times when people come to practice
a spiritual path,
they have the same kind of questions.
And people think, you know, in a simple way,
like if sitting one period of meditation is good,
sitting two must be better.
A few years ago I was at Tassajara
and the students were talking,
and before the practice period we were talking about
how much meditation were we going to do.
And people said they really wanted to meditate a lot.
And maybe we could have more one week sessions
of meditating all day.
So I tried to say something.
I said something.
I made a real effort to be very careful
in what I said very carefully.
I was very diplomatic, you know.
I said I really appreciate your
interest and enthusiasm
and spirit for meditation.
And I'm really willing,
as I was trying to be the head of the practice period
at that time,
I'm willing to have more
one day, two day, seven day sitting.
But also I want to say
that if you think
the only place where you can
you know, study
and learn
and receive the teaching
is in meditation
this is a mistake.
And then you'll be wasting a lot of time
when you're outside the meditation hall.
Thinking that that's not really where it's at.
And then right away
several people said
but we're here to sit.
And I thought
I had agreed with that, you know.
Anyway, that kind of thing
comes up a lot.
What is it
that's of value?
What is it that's of benefit?
And then more must be better.
And then if sitting
meditation is so valuable
then walking to the meditation hall
must not be so great.
Oh well that's still pretty good, you're on your way.
What about walking out of the meditation hall?
You know, what about
when you're walking down the path?
What about sweeping the garden?
What about when you're washing the lettuce?
Is it of value or not?
Is there any teaching there
or not?
Who is the teacher?
Who is the student?
So when this happened
with our editor in New York
you know, someone said
oh well that's just the difference
between New York and California.
In New York
you have the authority
someone who knows.
Tell you
the novice
who doesn't know
exactly how to do it
so you won't have to suffer
ever the indignity
of making a mistake
and it will come out perfectly
won't it?
No problem
and you won't have to have any anxiety
any worry
any bother
you just follow the directions
do what you're told
and everything works
just like the experts
you know
and you won't have to
observe for yourself whether the onions
are white or translucent
you know
you can just look at your watch
The period of meditation
is 40 minutes
I wrote a lengthy
explanation to her
about how to tell
when the vegetables
are as tender as you like
how do we know
you know your teeth
can bite into them
with a fair amount
of resistance
but not so much
that your jaw gets tired
of it
and you know
or a fourth bite
like that
anyways
see in California
it's different
well cook the vegetables
as tender as you like
well play it by ear
follow your nose
why don't you
let it all hang out
or whatever
but I think it's more than
just the difference between
East Coast and West Coast
I think it's a difference
in mentality
or psychology
because we do have this
deep wish
and longing
to find out
how to
cook something
or how to live
without anxiety
will it come out alright
are people going to like it
are they going to like me
you know
what will people think of me
what will happen to me
suppose I can't do very well
you've never had that problem
I can tell
and it would be really nice
if someone
there was someone
who could say
well it's like this
or it's like that
or just do this
just do that
and people do sometimes
and then you can follow that along
for a while
and then it's sort of curious
somebody can tell you
we'll just do this
and just do that
but you can't tell them
you know
it's just sort of
one way relationship sometimes
the birds are like that
they sing and then
why don't you listen to me for a while
who cares
so anyway
I don't think that the point of
a teacher is to
tell you
or tell someone
just what to do
so you don't have to observe for yourself
what's happening
in your own life
whether the onions
are clear or translucent
whether the vegetables are tender or not
and the same for your own life
you're sitting cross legged meditation
and your knees hurt
or your back aches
well
should I have this pain
teacher
what do I do when it hurts
well
you know
well what kind of hurt is it
you know
are you going to ask somebody else
what to do with it
can't you figure out what to do with it
and really you mean
what can I do with it so it will go away
you know I want to get rid of it
I don't want to have it
I don't like it around
you know
somebody is supposed to help you
get rid of what you don't like
I like that story
about the Zen teacher
the student came to the teacher and said
teacher what about the student who can't cope
you know this story
and the teacher said
I can't cope either
but you're a Zen master
you're supposed to be able to handle everything
and the teacher said
if I could cope
I'd be able to do something about the fact
that you can't cope
so you know perhaps
a good teacher
will give you back
give you the teacher back
and you will be
your own teacher
you'll be stuck with being your own teacher
once again
you tried to
get somebody else to be the teacher
and you got it back
what is it the birds are saying
what is that teaching you here
and there's lots
of stories in Zen
Zen tends to de-emphasize
teachers
to some extent
you know someone will ask the teacher
what does it mean that
all things have Buddha nature
and the teacher says I don't know
and then the student says
but you're the teacher what do you mean you don't know
he says go ask the poet
you know things like that
so where do you turn
what do you ask
how will you listen
I want to tell you a little bit
about my experience
at one point sitting
when I started
doing meditation
I thought well
you do it the way you're told
to do it
sit down
cross your legs
sit up straight
and then
and then
you keep that posture
right
well at one point
I would be sitting like this
I would be sitting like this
and the next thing I'd know
I'd be sitting like this
no that's not the way to do it
you have to sit up
no
yes
no
I got in a little argument
about how to do meditation
with my back
now who do you suppose is the teacher
and who's the student
you know am I going to teach my back
how to do Zazen or is my back going to teach
me
huh
what do you suppose
chances are
your back is going to win
chances are your back has more to tell you
than you have to tell your back
but I had to argue
with my back for a pretty long time
because I wanted to be
I knew what the way to do Zazen was
to sit up straight
and my back said
no
and I said yes
I know better than you
how to do meditation
well my back won
I said you know you lose every time
like the time I was sitting and my knee hurt
and I said you're going to hurt me I'll hurt your back
and I did
now you're going to stop hurting
no
well then I'll hurt you more
well you lose again
every time you know you lose
you know your knee wins, your back wins
and then you have a new teacher
you know you have something to study
isn't this the way it works
I mean how do you suppose we ever learn anything
right
you know rather than telling our body and mind
and you know the rest of the universe how to behave
there are some things
that just don't listen, you tell them how to behave
they don't pay any attention
do you ever notice this phenomenon
it's the way the universe works
anyway
I found I had to study my
under my back
but it's an interesting
dynamic there
I thought well
my back doesn't really want to sit back like this
do you
I tried it for a while
well do you like sitting like this finally
no I don't think so
it gets kind of tired
after a while
well what about here
and here
and here
where is a nice place
where exactly
do you
exert some strength
what muscles
do you work
where do you need to relax
how am I going to do it
you know what I mean
so you have to study your back
if you want to sit
you study with your back
how to do it
so you can sit way up like this
and then there's many places
to have your back
all the way down to there
so
that's something you keep studying
you listen
to your back
what does it have to say
and it's very
it's a little bit subtle
because the first thing you hear
is way back here
and you have to understand
that that's just a reaction to the fact
that you're sitting up so straight
and this is the same way
when you know your relationship
with other people
and we make
you know
the teacher will make the student
who the student is
and the student makes the teacher
a teacher
this is work
this is study
the teacher is not a teacher
until you're a student
just as
you don't hear anything
the birds are just birds
your breath
does it teach you anything or not
do you study with it or not
your breath becomes a teacher
when you become a student of your breath
the sensation of the light
meeting your eyes
the air on your face
each phenomenon becomes
a teacher when
we are
a student
when I study
when I listen
yeah
so you see we try to write
a cookbook like that
to help
you know to help you study
not just a cookbook that says
this is how to do it
and you won't have to ever make a mistake
you won't have
to have a problem in cooking
you won't have any anxiety
it's gonna come out
just follow the directions
and it'll come out perfectly
so this is
a very tempting thing to do
to think that
there is someone
out there like that
you know
there was a student
Jack Cornfield
when he
became a monk in South East Asia
I don't know if you know
but he was a monk in Thailand
during the Vietnam War
every so often
they could hear the bombs going off
across the border
they were near the border
of Forest Monastery
they didn't do a lot of meditation there
they took care of their temple
early in the morning they went out
to beg for food
they had to walk
2-3 hours
through the rice paddies
to little villages for their food
and people would be waiting for them
5-6 o'clock in the morning
to give them food
and there's no way
you're not allowed as a monk
to say to the person thank you
the only way you can
express any thanks
or gratefulness
is to do your practice
sincerely
and wholeheartedly
the only way
is to repay
this kindness
anyway Jack was fairly young then
and he was quite energetic
and enthusiastic
and he thought
they're not serious enough here
they ought to be doing more meditation
so he went to the teacher
and said
I think we need to be meditating more
and
and
have more serious practice here
and you know what else
you don't seem like a very enlightened teacher to me
and the teacher said
you're very fortunate
aren't you
that's very fortunate for you isn't it
why is that
and the teacher said
if I was to
fit your image of what an enlightened
teacher was
you'd still be looking for the Buddha
outside of yourself
...
I'm going to read you a couple of stories
...
...
this is from a book
how can I help, it's called. How can I help? Wonderful little book. And part of the
wonderfulness about this book is that it's not like there's some, part of what
I find very appealing is it's not like there's some expert here telling you
where it's at. It's just these ordinary people and they have these incredible
insights. So here's one for example. I've been chronically ill for 12 years.
Stroke, paralysis, that's what I'm dealing with now. I've gone to rehab program
after rehab program. I may be one of the most rehabilitated people on the face of
the earth. I should be president. I've worked with a lot of people and I've
seen many types and attitudes. People try very hard to help me do my best on
my own. They understand the importance of that self-sufficiency and so do I. They're
positive and optimistic and I admire them for their perseverance. My body's
broken. But they still work very hard with it. They're very dedicated. I have
nothing but respect for them. But I must say this, I have never ever met
someone who sees me as whole, just the way I am. Can you understand this? Can
you? No one sees me and helps me see myself as being complete, as is. No
one really sees how that's true at the deepest level. Everything else is just
band-aids, you know. Now I understand that this is what I've got to see for
myself, my own wisdom, my own wholeness. But when you're talking about what
really hurts and about what I'm really not getting from those who are trying to
help me, that's it. That feeling of not being seen as whole.
I like that story a lot. And I think that that's one of the things that a teacher
sometimes, you know, a teacher can do that for us. And I think it's the most
important thing a teacher can do. Just to help us see, to help me see myself as
whole, just as is. You know, so often you go to, you know, you come to a teacher
and you say, well I've got this problem, that problem, and then that person actually
tries to solve it, helps you solve it for you. Without giving you so much the
idea that you're okay, isn't it normal that you have this kind of difficulty? So
I appreciate that about teachers oftentimes, who are able to give me that
feeling. I had that kind of experience one time, well many times with Suzuki Roshi,
but there was one time in particular that I remember when I was working in the
kitchen in Sassahara. And you know how hectic it can be trying to get a meal
ready for a lot of people. And shortly before lunchtime I was quite involved in
getting everything ready, and I heard a voice calling my name. I don't know how
long that voice had been calling my name, but I heard this name being called, Ed.
First, and then I, and then it took me a while to realize that that Ed was me,
because it sounded like a really nice person who was being addressed. And I
didn't feel like very much of a nice person at the time. I felt very, you know,
frazzled, and kind of angry, and irritable, and trying to get everything
done, and tense. And yet there was this voice saying Ed, and so it was a really
nice person. And it was like this person, I had never, I had no idea that that was
me. And it was like the difference between having a whole lot of storm
clouds suddenly go away, and there's this beautiful blue sky, it's so vast, and the
sun is shining, it's so wonderful, very amazing, and yet not so amazing.
Anyway, I think that's a special kind of, I don't know, I don't want to say special,
you know, exactly, because I don't think he planned to do that, you know. He just
walked in, and he just said hello, right? So what made him a teacher, you know? Who
was the teacher then? Where was the teacher?
So in that case, you know, something, someone out there awakened, touches
something in me that I didn't know. But was it there in me or not? Already. It must
already be here.
Everything we need to know must already be here. I want to read you another story now.
As an intern, part of my work was to travel around in teams examining patients. I would
notice their look as we entered. Intimidated, apprehensive, feeling like case studies of
various illnesses. I hated that, but I was an intern, so I went along with it. I remember
one guy distinctly, however, who was altogether different. I think this guy changed my life.
He was a black man in his sixties, very cute, very mischievous, and very sick. What brought
us repeatedly to him was the utter complexity of his illness, condition on top of condition,
and the mystery of why he was still alive. It was so strange. We were visiting not to
find out what was wrong with him, but why he was still here at all. I had the feeling
he could see right through us. He'd say, hey boys, when we came in. The way you might when
a gang of ten-year-olds come barging into a house for a snack in the middle of an intense
game outside. He was so pleased and so amused. It made some people nervous. I was intrigued.
But for some weeks I never had a chance to be alone with him. Now and then he'd get into
very serious trouble and he'd be moved into intensive care. Then he'd rally to everyone's
amazement and we'd move him back. And we'd visit him again and he'd say, you boys here
again, pretending to be surprised that we were still around. One night there was an
emergency and I took the initiative and went to see him alone. He looked pretty bad, but
he came alert a few seconds after I entered. He gave me a grin and said, well, sort of
like he'd been expecting me. Like he'd known how much I'd come to love him. That happens
in hospitals. I imagined I'd look a little surprised at the, well. But we just laughed
a minute and I stood there just so taken by who he was. And then he hit me with a single
remark, half a question and half something else. Who are you? He said, sort of smiling.
Just that, who are you? I started to say, well, I'm a doctor. And then I just stopped
cold. It's hard to describe. I just sort of went out. What happened was that all kinds
of answers to his questions started to go through my head. They all seemed true, but
they all seemed less than true. You know, I'm this or I'm that and also, but not just.
And that's not the whole picture. The whole picture is the thought process went something
like that. Nothing remotely like that had ever happened to me. But I remember feeling very
elated. It must have shown, but because he gave me this big grin and said, nice to meet you.
His timing killed me. We talked for five minutes about this and that. Nothing in particular
children, I think. And at the end, I ventured to say, is there anything I can do for you?
He said, no, I'm just fine. Thanks very much, doctor. And he paused for the name and I gave
it to him this time. And he grinned at me again. Really, he did. And that was it. He died a few
days later. When I carry him around today, I think of him now and again in the midst of my rounds.
A particular moment or particular patient brings him back. Who are you? For years,
I trained to be a physician and I almost got lost in it. This man took away my degree and gave it
back to me with, and also, and also, and also, scribbled across it. I'll never forget that.
So, you see, we never quite know when we'll run into a teacher.
But when we'll meet the teacher, when we will be a student.
And as soon as we are students, we are also teachers.
And there will be those times when we realize our own wholeness.
As is.
Whether it's hearing the bird sing or hearing the sound of the onions cooking,
the smell of the bread coming out of the oven.
And we won't be trying to make all the particulars perfect. You know,
we have our wholeness already. We want a way to experience wholeness until everything is just
right. When will that be? It can wait a long time.
I think I'll close with a poem from Ryokan.
I may have told you this poem before, so here it is again.
Yeah, I don't know, they don't get that old. I mean, it's only been around for a few hundred
years already and they put it in a book. I mean, it's, you know, what the heck.
What are we supposed to be getting out of this?
Anyway, I don't really have anything you're supposed to be getting out of this. I hope
that's clear. I mean, even though it might sound like there's maybe something to get out of it,
but I figure giving a talk is like cooking. I mean, it's my job to give the talk and it's
your job to receive it. You know, like if I cook and then I tell you, now you better like it. You
know, I mean, it gets really manipulative after a while, you know. Have another helping. You're
not eating enough. You're eating too much. You should be appreciating it more while you're eating,
not just scarfing it down. So I figured, anyway, my job is, you know, I offer it and then people
say, yuck. Like Calvin, you know, in Calvin and Hobbes, he said, yuck, what's this? And his mom
said, this is a vegetarian meal. And he said, ew, I hate vegetables. I'm a desertarian. Anyway,
I don't know what you like or don't like, you know, and obviously I found out a long ago when
you cook, you can't please everybody. You put oatmeal in the raisins and some people say,
you know, who are macrobiotic, they say you're poisoning us and other people say,
thank you very much. And you know, what can you do? So I figure it's my job to make this offering,
you know, and then you take it and you go, yuck, and you throw it over there or you sort of look
at it for a while. Pretty cute. But you know, I might have a bite or two. And then on to
something else. You do with it what you do with it. I can't help that. That's up to you. So anyway,
this is all. To get to ryokan, you do with it what you want. It's sort of a simple poem,
but it's sort of what we've been talking about today, sort of. He said, when you speak the truth,
there's nothing but the truth. When you speak delusion, there's nothing but delusion. Outside
of the truth, there is no delusion. But outside of delusion, there is no special truth.
It's kind of like you're already whole. Outside of delusion, there is no special truth. Followers
of the Buddha way, why do you so earnestly seek for the truth in distant places? Look
for truth and delusion in the bottom of your own heart.