Good morning. This morning we start page 5, paragraph 12. The previous few paragraphs, Dogen comments, fat is the ten direction or ten direction world, and fat is the bright jewel. And he said, you know, ten direction world is the range we live and do activities. the range of our practice and life. And the bright jewel is this five skandhas, this body and mind. It's not something hidden within five skandhas. That is what he said. And it is not one or, how can I say, individual beings.

[01:02]

And it's also not one piece. And at the same time, each and everything is one piece, like each different finger. and they are one hand. That is what he said so far. And from this section, he made comments on the conversation between Gensha and the monk. Until section 19. So let me read... end of his comment on this conversation. Page 5, paragraph 12. How should this student, I, understand? This question sounds as if the monk is interacting with

[02:05]

with his own karmic consciousness, but it is the great function manifesting itself as the great standard. One step further, when there is one foot of water, the water causes one foot of wave to stand up high. In other words, ten feet of jewel has ten feet of brightness. In expounding this expression, what Gensha said was, the entire ten direction world is one bright jewel. What is the use of understanding it? This utterance is what a Buddha inherits from a Buddha, what an ancestor inherits from an ancestor, and Gensha transmitted to Gensha.

[03:17]

If one tries to avoid this transmission, there might be some way to avoid it, but even if one resolutely tries to avoid it, the moment in which one speaks is the entire moment that expresses the entire ten-direction world. The next day, Gensha asked the monk, The entire Ten Direction world is one bright jewel. How do you understand it? This means that he spoke of the fixed dharma yesterday. He speaks with his second tongue today. Today he speaks of the not-fixed dharma. Having pushed yesterday aside, he is nodding and laughing.

[04:24]

The monk said, the entire ten-direction world is one bright jewel. What is the use of understanding? This is, so to speak, riding the bandit's horse, chasing after the bandit. An ancient Buddha expanded dharma for you is like walking within difference and unity. For a while, we should turn the light inward and illuminate the self. How many pieces of what is the use of understanding are there? Tentatively, we should say seven milk cakes and five vegetable cakes. Still, this is the teaching of practice south of shore and north of tongue.

[05:26]

Gensha said, I know that you are making your livelihood inside the demon's cave in the black mountains. You should know that since ancient times, the sun face and the moon face have never changed. The sun face comes out together with the sun face, the moon face comes out together with the moon face. Therefore, Yaksan said, even if I say that it is light in the sixth month, my family name is not heat. This is Dogen's comment on the conversation. I hope you understand. Fortunately, I don't understand. So I'm trying.

[06:29]

I have been studying Dogen for 40 years. And, you know, in my 20th, 30th, 40th, and 50th, now I'm in my 60th, each stage my understanding was different. And almost each time, I read this kind of comment by Dogen on certain things. I found something new or something different because I'm changing. So you don't need to think you don't understand this, so you are no good. I'm no good, but we are changing, so we are no good not forever. Yes. But we cannot be perfected. Anyway, before, you know, the expression Dogen uses in his comments are almost all from different koan stories or expressions in the sutras.

[07:46]

So unless we know each of those, meaning of each of those expressions, you know, what Dogen said is completely nonsense. And that is very true. And unfortunately now, you know, in English, there's no way to check all the meanings of those words and also how it was used in the original text. So I have to explain that's my bad karma. Anyway, first this monk said, I heard that you said this strange thing or a very simple and obvious teaching that is the ten direction world, entire ten direction world is one bright jewel.

[08:47]

How can I understand it? Let's see. So before I start to talk each of Dogen's comments, I talk about my basic understanding about this conversation and what Dogen wants to show us. The monk's question in Chinese is, Ikan ga e toku. Ikan is how. E is understanding. And toku is be able to or can.

[09:52]

So how there's no So, how can I understand? How can I understand what you said? Then, Gensha replied, Yu e somo. When we read English translation, it's, you know, more confusion. So when we see the Chinese, it's much simpler, I think. U is use, and A is understanding, and SOMO is what? So this is, fat is use of understanding. And that is the end of the conversation on that day.

[10:59]

And next day, Gensha asked to the monk, excuse me, Somosan, Yes, Somo is saying how, and Somo-san makes this sentence question, and A is understanding, so how do you understand? And the monk said exactly the same thing. He repeated what Gensha said, what is the use of understanding. And Densha finally said, now I know you are living or making livelihood in the Black Mountains. This side is a question, and how can we understand?

[12:14]

And this is a rhetoric question, so this is not really a question, this is a statement. There's no use to understand, or understanding is good for nothing. There's no way you can understand it. So this is a fixed statement. Understanding is no use. Understanding doesn't work. But here, I said, how can we understand? This is two sides. And first, In Dogen's interpretation, these are not questions. So this monk didn't give Gensha a question. But Dogen Zenji, these questions are the statement also.

[13:18]

So both are not questions. And this side, That means we need to inquire. what this means, how can we understand what is this thing, you know, can mean in our life. So we have to inquire, question and inquire and find what is the meaning of this. And this side, there's no such inquiry and understanding as a result of inquiry is useless. So there are two sides. That is what I think Dogen is talking. And this is same as thinking or shiryo in Fukanzazengi. And this side is not thinking.

[14:23]

Thinking doesn't work. So there are two sides. You know, in Genjo Koan, Dogen said, when he sailed a boat in the ocean, the ocean looks like just a round, like a circle. Nothing else can be seen. So there's nothing, there's no way to understand this. This is no distinction or separation or difference. This is one simply, one circle. And yet at the same time, Dogen said, water or the ocean is not simply a single circle, but there are millions of characteristics, many things different.

[15:27]

And he said, for fish, water is like a palace, and for human beings, water is just water. But for the heavenly beings, water is like a jewel. So even the same thing can be seen in very different ways, depending upon our karmic consciousness. So he said, we have to inquire, keep asking, what is this? What is this? And we tentatively, we have some insight or understanding, depending upon what kind of experience we have and what kind of knowledge we have. We think this is it. And he said, we have to keep asking, keep inquiring. That is how, as a practitioner or a bodhisattva, we fly the sky like a bird, or we swim like a fish.

[16:41]

So this is a process of our practice, deepening our understanding, opening our eyes even a little bit wider, that how we can see things clearly. But this inquiry has always limitation. This is my view. This is from my point of view, my experience. So no matter how deep we see and how wide our knowledge might be, this is still limited, still has limitation. This is only my view, and what I'm talking is only my understanding of Dogen. And this is one part of Buddhist traditions. And so whatever I say is from, in my case, from Japanese Buddhist point of view.

[17:48]

from my point of view, this world looks like this, or my life looks like this. But from other people's point of view, you know, there are even within this small group of people, we came from many different places, many different cultural and spiritual backgrounds. So the way I'm talking is from Japanese Buddhist point of view, so it might be very different from your view. So I'm kind of just a offering my view and I'd like to study other people's view. That is how we study each other and we become even a little bit more flexible and our view become more broader. That is what we are studying.

[18:54]

So the meaning of this study is, whatever I say is absolutely right. So you have to memorize everything I said. and believe everything and live in accordance with what I said. That is not our practice. We are trying to deepen and broaden our view and try to become even a little bit more flexible. and live with other people in a harmonious and peaceful way. So you don't need to believe anything that I'm saying. Please don't believe me. And even I don't believe what I'm saying. I mean, tomorrow I may say completely different thing.

[19:59]

So please don't believe it. This is one offering of one view from this person at this moment. So we have to keep inquiring, as Dogen said, in Genjo Koan. That is a process of our life. And yet, no matter how deep or wide, this is only from one point of view. So the reality is beyond any understanding. So understanding doesn't work at all. Our view is not reality itself. Our view is like, as I said, a map. It's a kind of a distorted, incomplete copy of the reality through this person, or in this text, through Dogen's insight.

[21:00]

So we have to see the reality from two sides. To me, this thing looks like this, but it might not be 100% true. From other side, this might be completely different. So we need to see from both sides, always. And this is, later Dogen called, this is a fixed, and this is not fixed. Fixed dharma, not fixed dharma. Usually we see opposite, this is fixed, and this is not fixed. I mean, so we have to find out what it looks like using our thinking mind.

[22:03]

So to me this is definitely a black marker, nothing else. This is one side, but we need to see the limitation of this view. To do so, we need to see this side, that is, inner expression and the heart, etc., form and emptiness. Or Nagarjuna said, this is absolute truth and this is conventional truth. Both are there, both are necessary. So both should not be eliminated or negated, simply negated. But each side negates each other and yet supports each other. And as I always said, both are included in our zazen.

[23:06]

Our thought came from our karmic consciousness, is always coming and going, but we don't grasp them, we open our hand. then our zazen is, you know, throttling of body and mind. That means letting go. That means thinking is there, but we don't think. And so this is not thinking, or fushiryo. And these both are happening within hishiryo, or beyond thinking. That is my basic understanding of what Dogen wants to say in this writing. So this is not a question from the monk who doesn't know that reality. and asking Gensha, his teacher, to teach.

[24:07]

And even though Gensha gave him a teaching, this monk didn't really understand. So Gensha said, you are no good. You are still living in the Black Mountains. you know, this is not like this, and even they are not in the same level and praying towards each other, but they together are changing the path each day. Together show this reality, point out this reality. When one person said, we need to understand, how can we understand? Then another person said, there's no way to understand. Understanding is no use. Then next day Gensha said, how do you understand? Then the monk said, there's no way to understand. You know, that is. And these two, these are Dogen, according to Dogen, these are the way this bright jewel is rolling around, turning around without, you know, how can I say, without any obstacles.

[25:21]

Turning this way and turning that way and show the beauty of each side and emit the light. That is his kind of view, his view, his limited view of his life and his practice. That is what our life as the practitioner of, how can I say, not a Zen practitioner, but as a bodhisattva practitioner. This is my tentative understanding, so don't believe, but just keep it in your mind and inquire by yourself if what I'm saying is right or not. So now I start Dogen's comment on this conversation.

[26:24]

So he starts from this monk's question or statement. How should this student understand? Then Dogen said, Let's see. This question sounds as if the monk is interacting with his own karmic consciousness, but it is the great function manifesting itself as a great standard. Interacting with his own karmic consciousness is raw goshiki. Go is karma.

[27:37]

And sikhi is consciousness. And law is like a play with, play like a children do, play with, play with karmic consciousness. And usually karmic consciousness is something negative that creates our life, makes our life samsara. Because of karmic consciousness, we have a karmic... idea or desire, and because of this desire we create karma, good or bad karma, and we start to transmigrate within six realms of samsara. So by this expression, praying with karmic consciousness, that means he is making karma using his karmic consciousness. That means because he didn't understand what Gensha said, you know, entire ten direction world is one bright jewel within his karmic consciousness.

[28:54]

So he asked this question using his karmic consciousness, what does this mean? But He said, on the surface, his question is something like he is using his karmic consciousness. But he said, this is the great function manifesting itself as the great standard. This great function is Dai Yu. The Chinese character is in the text, so you don't need to write it. Dai-yu. And this is a part of the longer expression. Dai-yu genzen. Fuson kisoku. This is an expression by the master Unmon.

[30:09]

Unmon was Gensha's Dharma brother. this means genzen is manifesting, when great function manifesting. This great function refers to this movement of entire network of interdependent origination. When this function is manifesting, then who is not And son is to be or exist. And kīsoku is like a regulation or rules. So when this great function is working, manifesting, there's no such things called man-made regulation or rules. Human beings cannot control this great movement of causes and conditions. This is the movement of much larger energy.

[31:17]

That is what this means. This saying of umon means we should wake up to this great movement, great function, which is not going to my point of view. We often make rules for us and expect or ask other people to follow my rule. Otherwise we think that is a strange person or a bad person. Those are kind of man-made rules or kisoku or standard. And we measure ourselves and other people using this standard. But what Umon said is we should give it up. such a man-made small standard or rules or regulations to measure ourselves and others.

[32:23]

We are part of this much larger movement. That is what Umun said. But apparently Dogen changed, twisted the expression and changed the meaning. That means he said almost opposite. That means what he said is he erased this fu song not existing, but he put a ze dai-ki-soku. They mean this, or we can say is. Dai is great, great standard. That means when this great function is working, and when we awake to that great function, you know, there is some regulation or standard we have to follow.

[33:28]

That is the meaning of the bodhisattva precept. Bodhisattva precept is not a man-made regulations or rules or prohibition we should not do. But when we awake to this reality of internal dependence and also the working of these causes and conditions, there are certain things we should avoid or we cannot do, not because of the regulation or rules or laws, but because of awakening. Does it make sense? Because of awakening, awakening to this reality. And when we try to live following this great function, we cannot do certain things, certain self-centered things.

[34:32]

because we are supported by all beings and living together with all beings, we also should support other beings. At least we should try not to harm other beings. That is not the regulation, man-made regulation or rules, but that is a natural thing when we awake to this reality. We are supported by all beings, so we try to support other beings. That is natural things. Dogen called this a great standard, a great regulation, and this is what the Bodhisattva precept means. The Bodhisattva precept is the guideline of our lives, but this came from awakening to this reality.

[35:39]

So not because we will be published, how can I say, we need to receive penalty, not because we are punished if I do certain things. I try to avoid this thing. That is kind of a regular idea about rules, regulations and laws. Because we need to go to jail, we try not to drive too fast. It's not from awakening. But when we awaken to this reality, there is a great standard, great precept we cannot violate. That is what Dogen is saying in this sentence. Unmoen's saying is more kind of an orthodox teaching of then.

[36:47]

We have to give up the man-made regulation or rules and follow this great function, and there is no such tiny, small rules. So we are free. That is usual, common understanding of Zen teaching. But Fath Dogen said, if we awake to that reality, we are not free. Does it make sense? we are restricted by this awakening. That is the meaning of receiving the precept. So what Dogen is saying here is, when we awake to this reality, we have to keep inquiring what this is. We need to keep asking, how can I understand this? What is this?

[37:49]

What is the meaning of this? And if I understand this, how can we live? What I should do? What I should avoid? So we have to keep thinking and keep deepening and broadening our understanding. That is a great standard. So this question or saying by this monk is not a question because he lack of understanding, but this question came from his awakening. to this reality. That means this question itself is a function or brightness or light of this jewel. That is the next two sentences saying, one step further, when there is one foot of water, the water causes one foot of wave to stand up high.

[39:06]

You know, this water and water and waves. Actually, water and waves are the same thing. But in the teaching of Tathagatagarbha, water is used as a metaphor of true reality, or tathātā. And wave, the moving, the movement of the water caused by the wind is used as a metaphor of karmic consciousness. When the water, the true reality, is blown by the wind of ignorance, it starts to move. That movement is karmic consciousness. So water is something positive or truth or reality.

[40:07]

And waves is caused by ignorance. But here Dogen negates that idea, but uses water and waves as the same thing. So one foot of water causes one foot of wave, and this wave in this case is the monk's question. How can I understand? So this is the function of the jewel. So this question does not come from his ignorance. actually, according to Dogen, even this ignorance is nothing other than this jewel. There's no such, you know, ignorance on the surface and Buddha nature or Tathagata Garbha as a kind of a hidden treasure or a jewel.

[41:12]

But they are both entirely there. As I said, you know, not said, but showed a painting of young lady and old lady are completely the same thing and yet completely different depending when we see young lady or old lady disappeared or hide within the young lady and when we see old lady young lady is not there at all so these are both 100% and yet they never meet each other That is what he says here. And in other words, 10 feet of jewel has 10 feet of brightness. So this question of this monk is the brightness of the jewel. So this monk, Dogen didn't say this monk is ignorant.

[42:18]

Please. Is it something like furthermore or moreover? Right. Furthermore, it means it's not simply the great standard of this, you know, great function of this network of interdependent origination, but also this person amongst other individuals, you know. how can I say, his action, his question is also not only the part of this great function, but his question, his activity is also a function of this jewel. So it's not simply, you know, this universal thing, but this individual thing, also the same thing.

[43:26]

Does it make sense? Okay. And next, Dogen comments on this Densha's saying, faster use of understanding. In expounding this expression, what Gensha said was, the entire ten-direction world is one bright jewel. What is the use of understanding it? And Dogen's comment, this utterance, excuse me, This utterance is what a Buddha inherits from a Buddha, what an ancestor inherits from an ancestor, and Gensha transmitted to Gensha.

[44:37]

If one tries to avoid this transmission, there might be some way to avoid it. But even if one resolutely tries to avoid it, the moment in which one speaks is the entire moment that expresses the entire ten-direction world. What do you think? Somehow Dogen brought up this expression, dharma transmission. What is the connection between this conversation and dharma transmission? And he said, Buddha transmits dharma from Buddha, and ancestors transmit dharma from ancestors, and Gensha transmits dharma from Gensha. I think this means this teacher, in this case, he doesn't talk about the so-called dharma transmission from teacher to student in so-called Zen tradition.

[45:47]

But he is talking about the relation or connection between these two sides. You know, keep inquiring. using understanding and not use of understanding. That means, in a sense, absolute reality and conventional reality or truth. What Dogen said is teacher and student. Dharma is transmitted from absolute reality to the conventional reality. That means the great function and our personal action, personal function, are like Dharma transmission. And yet this is not two separate things.

[46:52]

This is like Buddha transmitting the Dharma to the Buddha. And ancestor transmits the dharma to ancestor. And gensha transmits dharma to the gensha. That means these two are exactly one thing. This is not two separate things and there is some connection. That is our kind of a common understanding when we study Buddhist teachings about absolute truth and conventional truth. We think there are two truths, and that is really what Nagarjuna said. There are two truths. And he said, in order to approach the absolute truth, we need to use conventional truths. So there is a connection and a way we can approach to the absolute truth.

[47:54]

To do so, we need to use and study conventional truths. So it seems there are two truths and somehow we need to make these two into one. But once we separate these two as two, there's no way to make it into one again. Once it's separated, these are two things. So what Dogen said here is these two things are really one thing. And Buddha transmits to Buddha, and ancestor transmits to ancestor, gensha transmits to gensha. So these two are exactly the same thing. That's the fact he's saying. In this case, that means, how can I understand, kind of inquire, inquiry, and there's no way to understand. These two are exactly the same thing.

[48:56]

I hope it makes sense. Four, five. if one tries to avoid this transmission, that means using both, keep asking, keep trying to understanding, or deepening understanding, and understanding is no use. These two. And he said, if one tries to avoid this transmission, there might be some way to avoid it, Of course, this is a kind of rhetoric, but Dogen doesn't think there is such a possibility. But just saying. But even if one resolutely tries to avoid it, avoid both, avoid both or either one of them,

[50:10]

our connection, our transmission between this and this. Keep asking and stop asking. Keep searching and stop searching, just right now, right here, with this one circle of the ocean. And also keep asking, what is this? What is this? And studying it one by one, and facing one problem at a moment. Like Fadu Chamros did when he had a terrible pain. So even if one resolutely tries to avoid it means to focus on only one side, this side or that side. The moment in which one speaks is the entire moment that expresses the entire ten-direction world. means even if I try to ignore this side and I just think about what Buddha's teaching and just study Buddhist texts intellectually, still that action and that energy and that desire to study only intellectually came from this power.

[51:38]

Or sometimes, or some people don't like intellectual study, and they just want to practice and let go of whatever understanding. That is also one kind of one way to make, you know, choice. I don't like this, I like this, so I do this. Even if I reject intellectual understanding, still this simple separation is understanding. There are two possible ways to study and practice Buddhism. One is intellectual understanding, another is just sitting, and I love just sitting, and I don't care about self-philosophy. If we think in that way and choose this side, then that is your philosophy.

[52:43]

That is your understanding of dharma, and you make choice. So when we make such a choice, this understanding and making choice, making distinction and making choice is still working within this choice. So if we try to avoid it, we can avoid it. We can just study Buddhism without sitting, or we can just sit without studying Buddhism. That is fine, but on the basis of such like and dislike, You know, both are actually functioning, so you cannot avoid, you cannot escape from the transmission of, or he said transmission, but this means, what is the word, identity of these two.

[53:52]

We cannot choose one because both are really one thing. Please. So the rule of transmission is kind of a problem then because it suggests from one thing to another thing. So faster, better English. Identity. Identity. But that is a problem also. Yes. What is the word in Japanese for transmission? SHI. SHI in SHIHO. SHIHO is Dharma transmission. If we use the word identity, that means there's no movement. That is another problem.

[54:55]

So whichever word we use, we have a problem. So we need to understand the problem. Then, even if we use this word, we know this doesn't mean this word. Usually means. Okay, so whichever we use, whatever question or asking or determination or decision, that is the moment in which one speaks. that we speak, the entire moment that expresses the entire ten-direction world. So no matter how small or narrow our mind or our view might be, and within this narrow of view, we make decision. This, I like this, I hate that.

[55:57]

Still, within this narrow view and tiny decision, this entire network of interdependent ordination is working. So no matter how selfish our thought might be, or how, how can I say, we don't have almost any knowledge about this teaching, still this teaching is working within ourselves. So there's no way to escape. Let's see, next. Then, that is the end of the conversation in the first day. The next day, Gensha asked the monk, the entire Ten Direction world is one bright jewel.

[56:59]

How do you understand it? So this time Gensha asked the same question. How do you understand? That means somehow you should understand it. How do you understand? But the day before he said, don't understand. Understand doesn't work. But today he said, how do you understand it? This means, Dogen's comments, this means that he spoke of the fixed dharma yesterday. He speaks with this second tongue, with his second tongue today. Today he speaks of the not fixed dharma. Having pushed yesterday aside, he's nodding and laughing. So the day before, Gensha said, you know, any understanding is no good.

[58:03]

It doesn't work at all. So why do you want to understand? But next day he asked, how do you understand? And this how do you understand, again, is not a question according to Dogen. He... point out another side. You need to understand. So how do you understand? What is your understanding? So Dogen said, Gensha is using two tongues. Do you have an expression, using two tongues in English? In Japanese it means telling a lie. Speak different things yesterday and tomorrow. So fit is true and fit is lies. Maybe both are true and both are lies.

[59:11]

But together Gensha tried to show us we need both. And yet, we need to be free from either. That's a strange teaching, but that is . That means we need to have certain way of doing things, way of thinking. For example, I often use the example of Tenzo, from Tenzo Kyokun. You know, first thing, according to Dogen's teaching in Tenzo-kyokun, within the one-day routine, first thing Tendo needs to do is going to the storage and receiving the food. And after that, Tendo makes the menu.

[60:16]

So Tenzo cannot, how can I say, choose the food ingredient, but Tenzo needs to use whatever Tenzo received, and then think what is the best way to make the best dish for the people. So when Tenzo receives the food, there's no choice, no discrimination. And that is what Dogen said, don't be... happy when we tend to receive a good fancy food ingredient and don't be depressed and hate when we only receive a plain not so fancy food ingredient but you know that is there's no choice for tenzo because those food are the gift or donation from lay people

[61:21]

or from the garden or field of the monastery, or the gift from the nature. It's kind of different from our situation, especially in this country or a country like Japan. Everything is there in the supermarket, so we can make a choice. So when we cook, first we make a menu. and we list up what we need and we go to the supermarket and collect everything we need. But in the case of, you know, tenzo in the ancient times, it's opposite. First we receive the food and think what we can do. You know, when we receive, there's no, how can I say, no, how can I say, discrimination or like and dislike. I cannot, you know, make a choice. But this is the only thing which I can work or Tenzo can work with.

[62:25]

And once we receive this food, we have to think. And that is the best way to cook and prepare for the people to enjoy. So here is discrimination and non-discrimination. And not only the cooking, but also our life is the same. We cannot make choice where I can be born. I cannot choose parents. Somehow we are born as a child of certain parents, without choice. And these five scandals, our DNA was already given when I found this is me. first we have to receive, you know, this ingredient. No choice. But, you know, when we find this is me, this is my, you know, food ingredient, these five standards, somehow we have to think, how can we

[63:37]

how can I say, use these five standards and live in the most healthy and joyful way of life? How can we make our life most meaningful and enjoyable? So There's no choice and no discrimination about life and death. But when we receive this body and mind and this situation we are living, we have to think, fat is the best, most healthy, meaningful way we can choose. So there are always two sides. No discrimination, just accept. And when we accept certain things or conditions, we have to think what is the best way to live, to use this possibility.

[64:43]

But when one person is saying this side and at the same time that side, to us this sounds contradicted. And I think this person tells a lie. Today he said this, and yet yesterday he said that. Which is true teaching of this person? Or he's just changing his opinion every day? Or not? That is what Dogen mentioned here. So Gensha is using two tongues. One is no discrimination. Otherwise, we have to make discrimination. Please. Well, let me talk 15 more minutes.

[65:59]

I talk about that even more after 10.30. Okay, I want to finish 13. This is my choice. I want to finish this chapter tomorrow morning. So please wait a little. And, you know, Gensha is telling a lie or using two tongues, and he's laughing. That means he's enjoying. But often we become serious. I want to make choice, this side or that side. And when we have a problem with this side, we become so serious, I don't like this, I want to get that thing, or I want to go that side.

[67:00]

And when we are that side, I want to return that side. So these two become a kind of a choice. I like this, I hate that. That is another problem. Sometimes we like, you know, being one with everyone and everything is equal. So we thought we needed just sit, you know, 24 hours a day. But unfortunately we cannot do such a thing. So we return to discrimination. And I hate this sometimes. I have to think. I don't want to think. But I have to think. And yet, sitting 24-hour day is too boring and stressful and painful. So I can enjoy doing something else. So these two are actually one thing, but somehow we also make distinction and making choice.

[68:07]

And I like this, I hate that. Or I like this, I hate that. Often, when we sit, we think, you know, working in the kitchen might be better. And when we work in the kitchen, I think, I want to sit. You know, often we say, what I'm doing is the worst thing to do. All other people are doing something better. That is a delusion. Pardon? Sleeping is the best thing to do. OK, but here, Gensha is laughing. That means to embrace both sides, we need a sense of humor. This is an important thing. Almost all the masters have a very good sense of humor, and when we see something against my preference, we make a joke.

[69:15]

And that is a way to accept that we don't really like it, and yet this is life. So I have to embrace this thing too. Then there are so many jokes in Zen literature, and they enjoy this contradiction. Yes. About takvats or begging, yes. Yeah. Please. Sometimes, I think I've seen in some references, the English word ridiculous has that quality of being Nothing to do with it. You know, people laugh. That's ridiculous. Yeah. It's kind of a double-blind kind of thing, but not serious.

[70:19]

Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing but laughing or joking and accept it and go through it. That is a kind of wisdom in Zen. Next, the monk said, the entire ten-direction world is one bright jewel. What is the use of understanding? So what monk said is saying here is the same thing as Gensha said the day before. I think this is Dogen's sense of humor. This is, so to speak, riding the bandit horse, chasing after the bandit. This is also kind of a Zen expression.

[71:26]

Originally, I think this is also from a Shurangama Sutra. there is an expression such as, to see a bandit and think this is a son, and to see the son and think this is a bandit. That means misunderstanding or incorrect understanding. that in this case, bandit refers to the dust, and sun refers to Buddha nature or the jewel. But from that expression in the sutra, then Master said, we use bandit to chase after bandit. That means to, how can I say,

[72:29]

Subdue? Not subdue. What is the word? Catch? To kick the bandit out. Expel the bandit. So using the bandit horse to kick out the bandit. Does it make sense? There's an expression in English kind of similar to that, like the police officer has to think like a criminal in order to catch the criminal. So that means using delusion in order to become free from delusion. And to do so, again, we need a humor. And we need to, how can I say, accept this delusion. Like, you know, delusion is like a baby. When baby crying, and if we scold the baby, don't stop, don't cry, then the baby continue, not continue, but cry more violently.

[73:38]

But somehow we have to, you know, embrace and take care of the baby, then baby start to sleep. So delusion or delusive desire, desire came from delusion, is the same thing like a baby. When we scold, the desire become more and more stronger. So somehow we have to use skillful means. And we use delusion in order to keep the delusion quiet or peaceful. So anyway, here Dogen said, monk said that, he said the same thing as Gensha. This is the same as taking Gensha's horse and chasing after Gensha. Does it make sense?

[74:47]

An ancient Buddha expounding dharma for you is like walking within difference and unity. This expression, working within difference and unity, is another important Zen expression. Yi and Rui. Yi is difference. And rui is like a group or a category. And this refers to things in the same category. That's why this translation says unity.

[75:49]

And chu is in or center or middle. And gyo is to go. And also gyo can mean practice. And this expression originally came from Nansen. You know, Nansen was a very important and well-known Zen master in China who was the disciple of Baso or Mazu. He said, He said this Irui Chugyo is important. And he said after he passed away, he died, he would be born as a water buffalo. And that is irui-chugyo. In this case, in fact, when he said this, this irui means different group of beings.

[76:59]

That means now he was in the human realm. He was a human being. But as a bodhisattva practice, following, based on bodhisattva van, To free all beings, we should not stay in human realms. We need to go within the other beings also. So to be born as an animal, like a water buffalo, is a way he continues this bodhisattva practice. So we need to go to the different group or different group of people to work together. That is what this expression originally means. But this saying can be interpreted in another way.

[78:05]

That is... In the case of first meaning, this i or difference modifies rui, so different group or different kind. But in the second interpretation, this i and rui are two things. i is difference and rui is unity or sameness. So chu-gyo means going in the middle of difference and unity. So the meaning is transformed. And of course difference and unity in this case is what is said in the Sandokai. difference and unity. And kai means merging. So merging, kai in sando kai means merging, so merging difference and unity.

[79:09]

That means embracing both difference and unity. And here in this sentence, what Dogen meant is these two, discrimination and non-discrimination. Discrimination is difference, and non-discrimination is unity. And we need to go within or between or in the middle or embracing both. That is what this expression means in this particular sentence. So . What Gensha said, this is a comment to Gensha's saying, right? No, the monk's saying. But he said, what Gensha said is this ancient Buddha referred to Gensha.

[80:16]

What Gensha is saying is we need to go through embracing both difference and unity or how can we understand and understanding is no use both and for a while in order to walk Within this difference and unity, for a while, we should turn the light inward and illuminate the self. This is exactly the same expression Dogen used in the Fukanzazengi. The expression is eko henshō. And A is to turn, ko is light, hen is return, and sho is illumination.

[81:20]

And when I translated Fukanzazengi many years ago when I was in Massachusetts, I didn't really understand what this means. So I, when I was translating Fukanzazengi, one Chinese person visited Vale Zendo, and I asked the person what this means, irui, no, echo, hensho, to the Chinese person. And she's from mainland China. Anyway, she said this expression, echo henshou, means when a person is dying, right before the person died, somehow the liveliness returns, and the person's face becomes

[82:23]

pink, or not red, exactly red, but the color of the blood come up. And she said that is fat echo henshou means. That means the person's life is already gone, almost gone. But right before that, you know, liveliness returned. And this meaning came from the scenery of the time of the day when sun set. When sun set to the west, you know, the sun is already gone. or almost gone. But at that time, this entire sky is illuminated by this sun, and it becomes very bright. That is the original meaning of this expression, eko henshō.

[83:30]

The sun is already gone, and yet at that time, that means between daytime and nighttime, or brightness and darkness, there is one moment or a few moments that is really bright and beautiful. That is what eco-hensho literally or originally means. So from that meaning, this liveliness returns right before the person passed away, came from. And according to a Chinese dictionary, this expression has another meaning. That is, in English, a second wind. I think you know what this means. When we do some kind of exercise or work, we're tired and we feel we have no energy anymore.

[84:37]

And yet somehow the second wind comes and somehow we can continue to work. That means our energy came from our will power doesn't work anymore, but somehow our body or our life has more energy beyond our control. That is what this second wind or eco-hensho means. So in this case, or in the case of our zazen, he said, you know, we are always chasing after something outside and saying, I like this, I hate that. This is what we do in the daytime. We make discrimination, separation, and we always think this is better than that thing, or I like this better than that thing, so I do this.

[85:42]

That is what we do in the daytime when we work. And in the night when we sleep, we are free from that kind of discrimination. We just rest and sleep. But between daytime or work period, and rest time, or sleeping, or darkness. So daytime, brightness and darkness means discrimination and non-discrimination. And this echo, hensho, happens right between these two. It's end of the day and the beginning of night. At this border, this entire sky becomes really bright and beautiful. That is what is happening in our zazen. Our zazen is not sleeping, and yet our zazen is not working. It's like twilight time.

[86:46]

Work is done, and yet we don't sleep yet. So we are exactly this time of the day when sun is setting, or sun has just set, and yet the world is really bright and beautiful. That is, according to Dogen, that is what Avatarsana is. So when in the daytime we are working, we go out and pick this and that. We make discrimination and making choice. But in our zazen we don't do such a thing. To do so, our light illuminates things outside, but turns this light toward inside and illuminates the self. That is what we do in our zazen, and this is how this expression, eko-hensho, is used in Fukanda Zenki.

[87:52]

And he used exactly the same expression here. when we discuss about the connection or relation between these two, discrimination and non-discrimination, or understanding and non-understanding. That means both are there, and somehow it's really bright and beautiful. That is fatza's use of understanding. So understanding is not completely you know, eliminated. When Gensha is saying, first the use of understanding, he's still thinking, and give good advice to that monk. So when we say, that is good for nothing, or understanding is good for nothing, then still we are thinking, that we are still not in the complete darkness.

[89:01]

This is like, you know, same as the time of sign is setting. We are still awake, but we think understanding doesn't work. And yet this is still understanding. So understanding is not negated. It's still there, but within this understanding, Gensha is saying understanding doesn't work. So this is not such a simple thing. So understanding doesn't work. It's one understanding still. So this is not complete darkness or not complete negation of understanding. But this is understanding about non-understanding. Or non-understanding appears and manifests or expresses itself within understanding. whatever way we say.

[90:03]

Anyway, and that is the meaning of this expression, further use of understanding. So this is very important, subtle teaching. And how many pieces of further use of understanding are there? Means, he said, this is not only one, thing, one piece. There are many pieces of, you know, understanding is no use, or further use of understanding. You know, as I said, when we face life and death, further use of understanding. Or when we are facing a pain, further use of understanding. Whether we understand it or not, pain is pain. We have to scream. Or there are many Actually, not only that kind of particular situation, but we are always facing the reality that understanding doesn't work.

[91:15]

Even about understanding, we cannot avoid understanding. as far as we live as human beings which has brain. This is not my preference, but somehow when we understand what we are, how we live, our brain is already there. So this is not my choice to think. We are forced to think. Even before I established my way of thinking, the way I think is already kind of trained within the education at home and at school. So even the way we think is not our choice. And to think or not to think is not our choice. So even thinking or even making discrimination does not come from my discrimination.

[92:24]

This ability to make discrimination came also from our life, our life force. So I have no choice not to discriminate. But if we, you know, are dominated by this discrimination, and if we think this discrimination is reality, and we throw ourselves, our life into that world of discrimination, then we are in trouble. But the ability to make discrimination is part of this life beyond discrimination. So actually everything we encounter, all the situation and condition we are living at this moment, understanding is no use. So there are infinite number of further use of understanding.

[93:30]

That is what he said finally. Tentatively we should say seven milk cakes and five vegetable cakes. Still this is the teaching of practice south of shore and north of town. This milk cake and vegetable cakes came from the sayings of Tendo Nyojo, Dogen's teacher. But in here, this milk cake and vegetable cake doesn't mean anything. He just used this, how can I say, indefinite number, seven, five, or even doesn't need to be seven or five. It means any number. That means there is infinite number of, you know, understanding is no use. or the use of understanding.

[94:36]

Yes. And finally he said a kind of strange thing. This also came from a saying, not a saying, but a poem by a Zen master. about the south of shore and north of town. This is about, well, I'm sorry, it's already 15 to 11, so maybe I should talk in the afternoon. I start from here. because this is interesting and it takes a long time. So, what was your question, Tony? What was your question? It's already gone.

[95:42]

Yes. Well, this is a kind of a... This is a kind of, you know, this is or there is a well-known expression in Zen to take out the wedge. Wedge is a kind of a piece of metal to split the wood. It is wedge, like what? There is a proverb to take out the wedge with the wedge. That means when we split a huge wood, first we put the wedge to the wood, and when it goes deeper, we cannot take it out.

[96:59]

then we put another wedge and hit and make it deeper than the first wedge, then this wedge can be taken easily. And this expression, taking wedge with a wedge, is used the same meaning, using delusion to take out the delusion. and example. Does anyone have any example? My mind doesn't really work now. Okay, thank you. Well, for example, Is this homework for this afternoon?

[98:01]

Please. If somebody comes and says, I want to do this because I want to quiet my mind, maybe instead of explaining, well, no, then solution, you let it be. I don't know. Even though you know that you could have entered out a goal, but you let that solution be for once. To become free from that delusion. Do you think that is an example? Good, thank you. I was saved. Okay, any other questions? Please. I was reading another translation, and I think it was something like becoming a different species.

[99:07]

Yeah, that is our first meaning of that expression. Okay, and I thought that was really funny at first, but then it made sense, and it was like kind of a bodhisattva manifesting a different... Yeah, like Avalokiteshvara. It could be included. It could be interpreted in both ways. As I said, this is going in the middle or embracing both thinking and not thinking. That is, thinking is difference and not thinking is unity or sameness. But because of this understanding and going towards both, going the middle of this difference and unity, you know, for example,

[100:14]

I'm coming from Japan to this country. This is a kind of a different group of people. Like a Nansen be born as a water buffalo. Yeah, this is my practice of going in the middle. To do so, I have to be, you know, I cannot lose my identity as a Japanese, but I have to be free from my identity as a Japanese to live together with different group of people. Yes. And neither of them. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

[101:09]

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