It's good to be with you this morning, here in the Zen Do, where we can talk about what we want most deeply for ourselves and for our world. Mel was going to be here today, but he didn't make it back from Tassajara, so we thought that since it was Bodhisattva ceremony, we'd have a discussion, a little discussion about the precepts together. So I was going to just say a few words to introduce that. Can you hear me okay in the back? Okay. I've been editing some lectures for Reb Anderson, who's the abbot of the San Francisco Zen Center, along with Mel, the abbot of the San Francisco Zen Center, about the precepts, and of course been working with some of the ideas in my life as I've been working with the words, and a couple things I just wanted to put out there to frame the discussion.

[01:06]

One is called, enlightened people always confess, and the other is called, no fixed idea. When she was coming in this morning, Judy, is Judy here? There she is. I said, did you come to repent your ancient twisted karma, and she said, I always repent whether I need it or not. Which was a joke, but it was really what I wanted to say this morning, which is, so we might think that as we get more and more enlightened, we'd have less and less to repent, because our activity would be so enlightened, and we know we'd hardly ever do anything wrong, if ever. And actually, another way to look at it is that the more It feels a little funny to use the word enlighten too much, but let's say the more centered we are, the more grounded we are, the more we notice our constant sort of falling off and we don't feel so much like, you know, well, I'll restrain myself from doing half the wrong things I do and the other half I'll sweep under the rug.

[02:28]

or something, but there's some joy, there's some joy in like constantly, oh, clinging, oh, clinging, oh, you know, and so that's one point. We always repent whether we need it or not. The other point is no fixed idea, which means that we don't, even though we want to practice the precepts and we set about, we make a vow to practice the precepts, we don't really know what that means. We don't feel sure about what that means. We don't know for sure that we don't kill. We don't know for sure that we don't steal or lie. And we ask our hearts, and we ask our bodies, and we ask our friends, And we ask our enemies, we listen to our hearts and we listen to our bodies. We listen to our friends and we listen to our enemies about whether we're following the precepts or not.

[03:33]

And we don't say, you know, I know what it means to kill and I don't do that. So that's all I wanted to do to introduce, except just I was going to suggest that as precepts go, the three ones that have to do with right speech are often the hardest ones for me. And I thought if anybody else is interested in those, I'd be interested in talking about not lying, not slandering, and not praising oneself at the expense of another. So does anybody want to say anything? I vow to save all beings. I realized that a lot of my wrong speech, my praising self at the expense of others, is connected with that vow that is a very big part of me.

[04:39]

It drives me and other people crazy. Because I have a fixed idea about it and I get into big trouble with it. About saving beings? You feel like you say things more than other people? I feel like I know how to, it doesn't mean I do it, but other people have really stupid ideas. And it's interesting how that works because it creates a lot of enemies, or people that I look at as enemies who are perfectly fine. I guess the thing you were talking about, about the continual examining of oneself, one's motives and so forth. I heard a phrase used about that once called polishing your rock. And as it gets smoother and smoother, the flaws show up more, any flaws that are there.

[05:44]

And I think that's what happens is we're polishing our rocks and the flaws show up. or more sensitive to them. Yeah, now when you say that it makes me think of, now are we getting into like a gaining idea here? Are we in a constant improvement rather than recognizing the perfection of, you know, and the oneness and interdependence of what is? That's another thing too. associated with guilt. So it's like examining our inner experience. Is there judgment in that or not? And for me what I prefer is the practice of psychological analysis, being able to examine my inner experience and experience it.

[06:59]

and to let Buddha nature sort of arise spontaneously rather than the problem with thinking of the precepts in that way is that it can lead you to this kind of guilt and moralism which creates more division in your mind rather than unity. Other people, I don't want to, I'm not going to, I don't, I'd rather we just talk together. Well, taking off from what Raul just said, I think it's difficult, if not impossible, to stop sort of these thoughts of slander or praising oneself and all that that arise in the mind, but taking the opportunity to not articulating them, we can sort of help turn things in a more positive way. So really looking at what we say, I think a lot of people come to practice, myself included, thinking that I won't have any more slanderous thoughts or praiseworthy thoughts about myself.

[08:08]

And I think that persists throughout. Maybe they diminish somewhat as we get older and more humble in our experience and respectful of others' practice. But we don't necessarily have to say anything or do anything, which is really, for me, what the precepts come to, is actually how we manifest in our lives certain actions, body, speech, and mind. Well, another related way to look at the precepts, another way I look at them is from this the concept of interdependence. And it's not just a question of looking into oneself, but also looking outward and perceiving one's interdependence with everything and everybody else, and consequently the effect that my actions, speech, etc. will have on other people. And a lot of the, I think, what's in the precepts comes from

[09:18]

the whole notion of the effect that one's actions have on other people and the idea that you bring into being a whole world with every action you take and therefore you have to think about what you're doing and what the effect is and the implications of it are. And that's another reason why the more aware we become, the more we are attentive to the ways in which we don't practice the precepts because I think we become more aware of other people, other people's needs, other people's actions and the consequences of our own actions and how it affects other people. Whereas in the beginning we may be very self-absorbed and thinking about, gee, I don't do this, I don't do that, and then you sort of move outward and think about the effects our actions have on others because that's really in a way, why we practice the precepts. It's not to make ourselves better, necessarily.

[10:22]

It's because not following the precepts has bad results in the world. And to the extent I think there's any gaining, that's the other part of it. Practicing the precepts brings about more harmony in the world. It brings about more equality. It brings about more love and more of the kinds of things we want in the world. for everyone. And what that makes me think, I remember that you have something to say about that. You know, also we can remember that when we do something it's not just our own, that that's caused by every, by the whole universe. And that... Well I'd like to understand more about this idea of dependence. I'm just beginning to come here and My background is Christian, so when I sat down and looked at the paper and saw the first thing is repentance, I sort of did a double take.

[11:26]

Because, you know, the experience that I've had with that in teaching is that repentance is encompassed in this idea of forgive me Father, for I have sinned, and it involves forgiveness. And so I'd like to understand more about what you are talking about when you seek repentance or open yourself up to repentance. Judy and Raman? Yeah, I have a thought about that because I think for me it's not repenting in that kind of Christian sense as much as it is just acknowledging. And I'm involved in a lot of groups where we have to work very closely together to get things done. And, you know, some of us have been together for a long time and we start, you know, talking wrong to each other somebody does something that hurts another person, I've found that when I'm involved in that, if I just, if I can listen to what somebody has to say about what I've done, instead of getting defensive, acknowledge it, it's such a relief.

[12:28]

You know, instead of having to get into this whole thing around defending myself and my position. So I think that that's what the repentance is. It's more just acknowledging that, oh God, I did that again, oh well. You know, and then moving on from there and trying to learn from it. And the way I see the precepts is not just so much what you may be doing with other people, but seeing yourself as an object too. And the theme through the whole thing for me is creating no harm. Each one of those things is like a commitment to create no harm. And so, repentance, I don't know if that's a good word, but to me it's like observation. Just looking at your life and seeing, and these are the kind of guidelines that we can reflect on and help us to focus on creating no harm.

[13:31]

Let me just say, I thought of my thing, which is, I think one of the things Rev's saying, which is that you can't, it's not just like you have zazen practice and then you have these precepts to help you relate to the world, but that you can't really practice true zazen if you're not engaged in precept practice. Charlie? Well, that's exactly what I was going to say. Oh, wait. Charlie, go ahead. In this practice, if we use zazen and precepts, it may inform each other. Can you say something about how that worked for you? No. Was Marjorie going to do that? Letting go of whatever it is that you're attached to. So, in a way, Zazen is a tool that informs you as to your practice of the precepts, but it's also a pure form itself.

[15:05]

It's very hard for me to explain, but I do think it means both. The idea of repentance to me, I think, is compassion, starting with oneself. Because I think if I can't be compassionate and forgiving of oneself, it's hard to, if not impossible, to extend that to others. Of these three, the one I find myself most caught in is the precept of not lying, because it's so tied to all the seemingly endless involvements I have in maintaining my sense of myself, my image, my capacity to do this or that or the other, and stripping that away, seeing myself fall short again and again and again.

[16:10]

It's like repentance is both softness instead of harshness with self and the permission every time to start new. I have a few things on my mind about this. I've had conversations about my practice with people outside of this community and it's very unusual that I actually speak with people in this community like this. because we all just come and sit and then go away. And I find when I do speak about it outside of this community, I get very scared. And I've always wondered, would I get scared if I was talking with people here about it, and I'm getting scared. And it makes me so uncomfortable to talk about these things. And one of the things that I love about this community is that we don't talk about it. And I can't really figure that out except that it's such a private activity for me.

[17:14]

And it's really, it just feels really scary to share. And that's so far all I've come to. But I know that one of my uncomfortablenesses around these precepts and talking about precepts is that I get very triggered around censorship and self-censorship in particular. And I feel like there's a way in which these precepts speak about truths. And I really have a difficulty with truths in a generalized context like that. And so I feel like right now I'm really struggling with, well, how did we arrive at these precepts? And what do they really mean? And like a lot of times when I'm in the Bodhisattva ceremony and I'm speaking them, There's a way in which I believe something about them and yet I don't really understand how they've been arrived at and why we uphold them and are they always really in our best interests to uphold them and how do we re-examine them in relationship to our culture now?

[18:17]

And I'm really very confused about that. And Leslie, I don't know your name. I forgot it. Did you have your hand up before? Me? Yeah. Nobody mentioned it. I just addressed this woman's concern earlier. And I don't mean to bash Christianity here. But there's Christian epitomes. It's very much a pointing of, you broke the precepts. I just have a few things going on in my mind also.

[20:05]

When we were doing the ceremony this morning, I realized one of the lines that I love the most is, let's see if I get it right, is, I vow to live and be lived for the benefit of all beings. And that's for me where Zazen, my Zazen practice is really necessary to even sort of get into the precepts because it's not just me. It's everything else meeting me and me meeting everything else. And I heard that in the Rinzai tradition, you have to go, you have to sort of pass all the koans before you can even study the precepts because they are so huge and mysterious. You know, it's like sometimes something that will look like kindness could actually harm somebody and something that could look like it was harming somebody could benefit them. So that's where it is very difficult to know. You know, they're not set in stone though. You know, it's sort of like, for me they're not set in stone. It's that constant examination. Anyway, for me it's not guilt, it's responsibility. Just being responsible to keep examining and looking and questioning.

[21:11]

That's all. And not knowing. Okay, could everybody now, does everybody, whoever wants to say something now, put your hands up and I'll try to get you in my mind here. Chris, right? Yeah. I think the priesthoods are very different from, for example, from the Ten Commandments. I mean, they're not thou shalt nots. They're more guidelines. One of my teachers said that the day you take a peace step to make it a day, you know, you haven't Use them as a guideline, but they're not a bad job not you know and it's sin to break That's the distinction coming from the same Christian background that I really had to understand One thing I've said in one of these talks is in the real sin is to think you never do anything wrong. That's the person who's really got I just wanted to say something.

[22:17]

This is only my second voting ceremony, and I had the same reaction. You know, they're telling me what to do. I don't know if I agree with all these anyway. But what I realized was, after the first one, was that there were three in particular, I won't mention which ones, that spoke to me, they just spoke to me, because they high-lit things in my life that I would like to work on. So they just spoke to me, those particular three. And actually, I've been thinking about those particular three over the past month or so, and it's beginning to make a difference for the better in my life. So with the rest of them that either I don't think I agree with or I'm not sure exactly what they mean, I just say, well, I'll look at those later on. But right now, these three, just looking at these three, it's proving helpful. So I just, it's just quite nice. According to one, yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[23:20]

With me, these have been really challenging aspects of Zen practice for me. When I first came, I was just like, vows, not when I was getting ready to hear vows. And then, and sort of what I tried is, I would say, enabled me at first to keep on doing it was sort of this applying the notion of no self and that the person who made those vows five minutes ago doesn't exist anymore. But then I kind of figured then what's the point of saying a vow? And it's not, it isn't this sort of contractual thing where I'm promising another person, okay, you know, you, I vow not to kill you or I vow not to lie to you. And so it kind of threw me And I've played with the language. Instead of saying, I vow, just sort of in general, it's been, I vow today. And then change it also into not even I vow, as in this sort of, it's my heart's deep intention not to.

[24:30]

Instead of recognizing, well, in this moment, yes. It may not be true five minutes from now. It's just, I don't know. There's sort of this endless sort of things that can come up with these. And I don't know. But because it's been interesting. It's almost like that part of Zen practice that could have It was almost the most revolting at first, and the most fertile in terms of working with Instagram. I recently was married here, and so we did the vows again. I mean, the precepts again. But in a way, I was taking them to George. So it was like, you know, it is sort of a contract in a way. And it's heightened through the relationship, you know. And the precepts over the years, to me, have been, really have been kind by this. And I, you know, there's certain ones, certainly, who still speak to me.

[25:30]

And now I, you know, now I, the precepts, having them, I become more aware when I'm breaking Well, I may be breaking them a lot, but there's times when I do recognize when I am breaking them. And I have an alternative, I think that's Ross said, to either change my action or not. And the precepts have given me that opportunity to look at my actions and everything like that, and speech, and choose one way or another. And I think, yeah, the precepts are a conversation we're having with each other. They happen in relationship. It's kind of like you say you want to be happy, follow these precepts and let's spend the rest of our lives talking about what that means. Anybody else? Ann? This has nothing to do with the discussion except it does have something to do with I Take Refuge in Sangha.

[26:31]

When Ellen came in to be doshi for the ceremony, Ellen and Lori are married and they have a new baby upstairs for those of you who don't know. Even Ross didn't notice. And I don't know, this speaks to me of the warmth of this sangha and something about the way I appreciate Yes. I just wanted to... I was thinking when everybody was talking, but to symbolize what it is, it seems to me like Sazen, the sitting, is the gift. It's a gift for me. The precepts would be like the wrapping.

[27:34]

And then it enables you to give this gift to somebody else. and then you create a new life and a new gift so all is really a gift but they're just a wrapping for the gift makes it much nicer out of a place of suffering or defensiveness or something that somebody has done something to me and I want to retaliate or some strong craving or some strong fixed idea.

[28:36]

What is this? What's my fantasy here at this moment about who this other person is or what they're doing to me or what I want to do to them? And for me, that sort of abstains from judging myself about it. It abstains me from leading to some action that I may regret and reach a deeper level And then you feel still and acting more from a place of connection and love. And then your actions don't produce more suffering. So that's how I relate to the precepts. Is there anybody who hasn't spoken?

[30:03]

I'm going to start calling on people a second time. We've got a minute here of special preference. Okay, Suzanne and then Roger. I want to continue this a little bit because what I heard you saying was that mostly the actions that you're about to take that you really examine are the ones that arise out of a discomfort. And I feel like I just want to challenge that a little bit because a lot discomfort I think are really valid actions and that again on that same note a lot of my actions that come out of a place of non-discomfort or pleasure or neutrality can be difficult. when they come to fruition. And so for me, it's not so much the trigger being whether I'm uncomfortable, like that to me, that's not my way of measuring and it doesn't quite make sense to me to always measure based on that.

[31:03]

So I just, can you respond to that? you may feel some discomfort and make a decision to act on something, even though you have some discomfort, and then that action leads to some wholesome effect. I don't know if I would say the opposite.

[32:04]

Marjorie, did you want to say something separate? What Raul was saying just makes it remind me of Mel's talk last week. What you can't afford to be is unconscious, the constant need for awareness and attention. He just summarized it in three questions that I found myself carrying around all week. Where am I, what am I doing in this, this practice? This is a way to kind of, it makes me sit up. Excuse me. I'm having trouble with my legs. Just a while. Let's see what time it's gotten to be. Oh, we have lots of time. Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

[33:29]

Are you saying that when you feel an emotion, or you are possessed by an emotion, that action, right action, is more likely to occur after you are fully aware of the emotion, and then that is the only, I mean, is that sufficient? Or do you apply something else? and expand it. Maybe times when you need to act.

[34:31]

And by the way, I don't think anybody here, I mean, you know, we're all just studying. Well, let's try, let's go out and try if we, if it's just enough to notice that we're really angry and then see what happens after. If that's, if what we do when we notice that we're angry is different from what we would have done if we hadn't noticed until after we did it or something. So there isn't any word on this, gonna come out of this room today. Yeah, go ahead, I didn't see you before, sorry.

[36:38]

I think it comes back to the question of right understanding, because in the eightfold path, you have to begin with right understanding, and everything proceeds from that, and I found that to be true in my own life, and I think that's part of what Raul was saying, that if the more clear your understanding is, then the more clear your intention is. And right speech and right action and right, all the rest of it, follow from right understanding and manifest it and deepen it. And the purpose of, for instance, not exalting self at the expense of others, or something like that. One of those precepts is because this is a way of living the idea of no-self.

[37:45]

It's a way of not building yourself up at the expense of others. Number one, building up yourself at all, and number two, doing it at the expense of others. And each of the precepts, if you examine it, is a way of manifesting the Buddha way. And the clearer one's understanding about that is, the clearer It is to know what to do, although there are circumstances when it is very difficult to figure out what to do. And those are the moments at which, as Leslie said, you have to take responsibility. And that's what a lot of those poems are about. I think it's in one of Uchiyama's books where he talks about the abbot who wasn't letting the monks have enough food. And it had gotten to the point where they were, it wasn't a matter of being uncomfortable, they were kind of starving and consequently they couldn't have a proper practice. And so one of the monks just basically broke a precept and went into the storehouse and got more food for everybody.

[38:51]

And it was the right thing to do because it contributed to the better functioning of the Sangha. But he, having done that, had to take the You can't go about breaking into the storehouse just because you think it's the right thing to do. It's a question of understanding. It's a question of motivation. Why are you doing what you're doing? Is it for the good of the group or because you're hungry, for instance? And then it's taking responsibility for what you did. why these are the right things to do, but the more you think about it, the more you understand the way in which they manifest the Buddha way and, you know, spread it in the world. Yes, I believe that many of the things that we call emotions are really products of our delusions or our delusionary thinking.

[39:56]

our anger over a particular event is really not true anger over what has occurred to us or what we've observed, but rather the baggage that we have taken with us from previous activities that lead to this delusionary thinking. I think that the precepts are very much like lights that sort of illuminate our delusions and our delusionary thinking and to bring us back onto the path toward enlightenment. I think you started off with a phrase about what people truly wanted and understand. And I was wondering, especially now that you have a new little one, what your thoughts are on that area? I guess I just want to be real. I'm not sure. It reminds me, I just flashed this, some kind of question and answer exchange between Ed Brennan and Suzuki Roshi, which is, what's the most important thing?

[41:07]

And Suzuki Roshi said, the most important thing is to find out what the most important thing is. I feel like what I really want is to find out what I really want. Something like that. I was just wondering, working with Reb and doing all the editing of the early talks of his, What has stood out for you, personally? Well, those are the two points that stood out for me. No, there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff there to work with. The feeling of, sort of, the part which someone touched on about the interdependence, where somehow, it's not, like, if you follow the, you can follow the precepts in such a way that they make your, they make your delusion that you have a self bigger and bigger, and you get self-righteous, and you can follow them in such a way that they help you to see that there is what, you know, that, what, how it really is, however that is. That's kind of the feeling. Yes, it's time.

[42:12]

It's time for some chat. Are you ready? Make some vows. Here we go. Beings are numberless.

[42:20]

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