The earliest Sangha, the earliest nuns order. How many of you haven't reported yet that nuns follow and actually read some of them and say, that's really what I wanted to get to tonight. I've been immersing myself and finding it really fascinating. So that was what I had in mind for tonight. So let's start with maybe we can divide the group. Four people report tonight and see how that goes and then, you know, I wish I could remember which are the ones we haven't given out yet. Maybe at the end we can assign for next week. Okay, so who would like to start? I read about Amba Pali, so her origins are supernatural, she was spontaneously born at

[01:01]

the foot of a mango tree, Vesali, is that how you say it, Vesali, and her name means mango protectress, she was so beautiful that princes fought over her, did we do this last week? I don't think that's what I did, because Dravidina was taken. But I would like to hear, why don't you just say, we did hear about her story, what your reaction to it? Did you say about the Malakirti Sutra? No. Oh, go ahead. It's the setting where the Buddha and his monks are assembled in the Jetavana Grove, which is actually Amba Pali's grove, mango grove, so I just thought that was interesting. So that, she has a role with the Malakirti Sutra, and the way that, I had a little note that the story of the princes fighting over her, how beautiful she gets made me think

[02:05]

of Helen of Troy, that was one personal reaction I had, what other reaction did I have, she, it really made me happy that she had been a courtesan, and that there are all these other ancestors that have, I felt like it was very empowering for women that usually are in a really disempowered position in society, that they were able to come into the Dharma and be armed teachers, you know, and, what else did I, oh, and that made me think of the Bible, I think Jesus, you know, kept company with the prostitutes and courtesans. Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene, yeah. So, I felt like there was some parallel there too. The poem, for those of you who weren't here last week, is a long poem, and there was some

[03:12]

reaction to the poem in this group, and I, it basically is an extended meditation on the dissolution of the body from a conventional feminine perspective, all the different parts that fall away and change, and so there was different reactions to that, and I was wondering what your feeling was about this. You know, well, you know what stanza, I copied down the stanza as an example, and it was the one about the voice, that one really, like, touched me, I had a sweet voice like a cuckoo moving in a thicket, now cracked and halting, you can hear my age in it, this is the teaching of one who speaks truth, yeah, that one touched me particularly. So, even with, I think, our, you know, broadening our acceptance of, you know, old is beautiful,

[04:26]

you know, but we do come from a culture that worships youth, in particular our Western culture, and the, and doesn't honor age, as we know, our old people are shunted aside in institutional settings often, and yeah, I was reading about, I think I mentioned this on Sunday lecture, about cosmetic surgery and facelifts and the enormous industry of not allowing ourselves to actually fall apart, you know, and here's this long, as a courtesan where she, that was her, her livelihood basically was her body, and then to watch it, and to, I actually felt there was some humor in, but the main thing was this extended looking at the details of what falls apart and if there's attachment there, so.

[05:32]

Being a courtesan, just being a member of the royal court? I think courtesan has the connotation of being more like a consort or a very high, I don't know what the name of it, call girl, you know, like a very elevated, like a geisha or something, where you're very well trained and educated perhaps, and maybe being an artist or musician, but still you're, part of what your job is is to have, have sexual favors, or give sexual favors. That's my understanding of courtesan rather than member of the court. Thank you, Lance. Dennis? Yeah. The woman who I was doing some study on is Padma Bhante, who's in the line of Great Woman Ancestors, falls just before Ambal Pali. And the first thing I noticed when I opened up the book to this section, it was actually

[06:40]

a section or a chapter called Prostitutes, Courtesans, and Beautiful Women. And then a little note that I read in the beginning of the chapter said, in early Buddhism, it was thought that one must pass through the world of samsara, or rebirth, of seduction of women in order to reach the place where desire and temptation no longer exist. It's almost a direct quote from the book. And also, in early Buddhist art, the women were often depicted as sensuous, voluptuous, and inviting. They were thought to be the opposite of a renunciant. And then it goes on to say that they're actually merely a shadow of one another. One cannot exist without the other. So I thought that was also worth noting. Let's see. The name Padma Bhante is the name of an Indian goddess. It means ruler of serpents. And Padma Bhante was from Ujjain.

[07:42]

She was renowned for her beauty and worked as a vessi, as a prostitute. And King Bimbisara was kind of a busy king, because I think he also got involved with Ambalpala and Ambalpana. And he sent for her. King Bimbisara sent for Padma Bhante. Actually, a spirit was conjured to carry Bimbisara to Ujjain. So they did their business, and Padma Bhante became pregnant. Bimbisara said, if the child were a son, that he should be sent to the palace and be raised as a royal son. So sure enough, the child was a son. And at age seven, he was sent to the palace, and the son became a monk. And the first stanza of Padma Bhante's poem is actually a teaching by her son.

[08:50]

So her son, which I think this was also true in Ambalpala's story, is that her son was actually the one who brought the teachings to her. This being the case in this book. So the first stanza was the teaching of the 32 parts of the body given to her by her son, the monk. And the second stanza is where Padma Bhante announces the realization she's gained by using this method. And if I can see the book, I'll read the poem. Can you read it out loud? So, in parentheses, this first stanza says, Padma Bhante's son.

[09:52]

Mother, from the hair of the head down and the soles of the feet up, look at this dirty, stinking body. Padma Bhante responds, Thinking like this, rooted out desire, the burning fever ended. I am quenched. The poem is quite abrupt, I think, and it's just interesting the way that in the poem that the meditation of the 32 parts of the body is presented. Look at this dirty, stinking body. I guess that's one way to say it. But she did. She took a look at this dirty, stinking body. Thinking like this, rooted out desire. In other words, realizing that it's her body and this is what it is and how it's falling apart.

[11:02]

I don't know if I'm really articulating what I need to say, so I'll just skip over that. But I thought it was really interesting that in a couple of these stories that the teaching was given to the mother by the son. I had mixed feelings about that. One feeling was, oh, look how these sons are caring for their mothers. And then the other feeling was, it almost seemed like the story they're saying that these women would not have been able to reach the Dharma without the help of a man or without the help of their son in these cases. And it brought up these thoughts that I still sometimes hold, that there's a lot of patriarchy

[12:12]

in Buddhism. At least, not necessarily in Buddhism, but in the stories. And I still feel a bit of wanting to push away from these stories because of that feeling. Thank you. Just a comment about the 32 parts of the body. That's a traditional meditation. And the 32 parts, I tried to memorize them once. Hairs of the head, hairs of the body, teeth, tears, bile. I mean, they're all the different parts. Limbs, sinew, blood, urine, feces. And when you divide up the body that way, and as a meditation,

[13:16]

the practice is to have some detachment from your own precious body that you protect and fight against and fight other people about. And of course, you probably know that there were meditations that took place in the charnel grounds because the bodies were left out, not necessarily buried. They were left out for the jackals and the wild animals. Or they were burnt. But anyway, there was this practice of going to the charnel ground and watching in meditation the decomposition of what happens to a body as it changes after death and then finally decomposes until it's just bones. So these are very strong practices and not for everyone. They're not necessarily given as meditation objects for everyone.

[14:26]

But they were thought to be very efficacious in having some detachment from your body. So he said it starts out with hairs of the head. The meditation starts out with hairs of the head, hairs of the body, teeth. So it's an ancient practice. And when they say dirty and stinking, I think of it less as a moral, as just the amount of products that are sold to keep us clean and not smelling like flowers or something. It's incredible, right? So if you spend the time looking at the actual how this body is, you may also say, but without much charge,

[15:27]

but dirty and stinking, you might say. To keep the body clean, we have to bathe daily. I mean, pretty much, right? Not all countries are able to, right? But pretty soon, the body needs attention. It needs a lot of care all the time. But we tend to forget about that. And of course, with these nuns and monks, the vow of celibacy made these kinds of practices. A lot of these came about for celibate monks and nuns in hot countries. That's a quote from Dr. Kansa. He said, celibate monks in hot countries, a lot of these rules and things and meditation objects were put forth because these were the difficulties that people had in keeping their vows. So I think with our sensibility from the year 2000,

[16:32]

we don't have such a feel for it as how it worked necessarily in the lives of these people back then. I have a question. What do you mean by meditating on the hair and every part? They would meditate on... The body was divided up into 32 different parts. So one is hairs of the head, and then there's this description of the hair from the head, pushing out of the scalp, like extruding waste products that are made into hair that come out of the... Instead of thinking of my crowning glory, beautiful hair waving in the wind, they actually want you to look at what it actually is. To just focus. There's a particular formula of how to meditate on it. And then hairs of the body.

[17:33]

What is your body? Well, it's got these hairs that come out. We don't really spend time in that kind of meditation. We're either bleaching or depilatory-ing or removing or permanenting or waving or cutting or taking care of our hair in certain ways, but we're not necessarily really looking at what hair is. What is hair, anyway? So they describe it as waste products that are being extruded through your pores. It's like, ooh, I never really thought about it that way. What she said about stinky body, to me it sounds like she's pushing it away instead of accepting her body. And what you said now about the hair is like garbage of the body. It sounds like pushing away the body. It doesn't sound...

[18:34]

Yeah, I think we have to be very careful about that because I think our job is accepting completely who we are, exactly how we are. But often we have a conception of how we are or a fantasy or a story, and this is like to get very close to actually what's going on and completely accept, not just the story of who we are. I think what happens is we often... These early kinds of meditations, we often, with our sensibilities, have a kind of... There's more poems in here like that where we don't like it actually because it looks like that exactly, like they're trying to... And there may have been some aspect of that too, trying to dissociate from rather than fully accept.

[19:35]

I think it's hard to tell. You know, so look at it like... If you look at, like, think it's not bad, but it's the truth... It's the truth, yeah. That would be accepting. I think it's a kind of balancing thing, you know. Yeah? Two things. One, I think I remember reading in that introduction that Linda mentioned how... I mean, it was a different introduction, but oftentimes the fraternal practice, the monks were observing dead women. Yes. So they had, like, very little contact with the living women, but they had this certain practice with dead women. So I wonder how that... I don't know, I just wonder about that. It seems like it's a strong relationship, kind of. I don't know. Well, there's a book called Charming Cadavers,

[20:38]

which I have a copy of, actually, that talks about this, that this is part of the... androcentric nature, the male-centered, where... and Dogen refutes this, which is very interesting, where in the patriarch here, androcentric meaning male-centered, the woman is seen as, or can be seen as, one of the roles she's cast in as the tempter or the evil one, like Eve or something, who's causing all this trouble. Rather than one's own desire, the object of the desire, whether it's male or female, it doesn't matter, it's one's own desire. So... and Dogen talks about this, it doesn't have anything to do with women, if all women... or whatever your object of desire, for women, if it's men, or for men, it's men,

[21:40]

women, it's women, whatever the object is, that's not... then all the world would be cast as some evil thing. No, the desire is within you, that's where you look. But anyway, I think there was a tradition of... not totally, but you can find in the Buddhist tradition women cast as the temptress and the evil one, and remarks about their bodies, terrible, terrible remarks, you can find in scripture and these practices. So my feeling about that, and this is kind of a feminist perspective, is that we want to have a usable past. So if there were certain practices in certain cultural situations by certain people, it's like their problem. I can't use that, I can't use that for my own practice,

[22:45]

or my own understanding of Buddha Dharma. That's... so I'm not going to study that particular way. So you can let it go, because there's other things that are in the tradition as well. I do think that monks had contact with laywomen and the nuns, also in certain formal situations, especially begging laywomen. But actual lovemaking or physical contact like that was prohibited, right? So let's move on if there's more. I just want to make a quick comment. Speaking of Dogen, I was just browsing through one of the books of Dogen's fascicles, and I came across the fascicle Raihai Tokusui, which I just wanted to mention, Rev had talked about that in early July, which is Prostrating to the Attainment of the Marrow. And he only talked about the title and the beauty,

[23:47]

relating it to our opening chant a lot. But I wanted to mention, I just happened to be looking at it, and it's a feminist treatise about, you know, to respect women who attain the way as abbesses or whatever position, that there's no reason why women shouldn't be totally respected as enlightened beings. And I just thought it was really astonishing and wonderful to discover that he was a feminist and putting forth these wonderful documents to support women attaining the way and to respect and bow to their feet and completely follow women who attain the way. This particular fascicle was the one that Suzuki Roshi wrote his thesis on in college, which I've been trying to get a copy of the thesis. I don't think he brought up this aspect of it so much. But in that fascicle, Dogen,

[24:47]

there's literally a diatribe against the ignorant people who don't let nuns, for example, go on sacred ground or go to these temples, ten-night temples. So I can maybe bring copies of it, because when I came upon it, I was so happy, because it was right in our lineage that this was how... We didn't have to make any apologies for Dogen. He actually puts it out there that the Dharma, you revere one who knows the Dharma, doesn't matter about gender. So I'll bring you a copy. You can all have your own copy. So let's see, who else would like to... Yes? I was given Tisa, but she only had a poem, but I looked up another person. I'm not sure. Could I see her? Should I go ahead? Yes, go ahead. She was the niece of a famous general, and he had converted to Buddhism,

[25:49]

went with the Buddha. And then she leaves her name in the book. It means lioness. She grew up in Visali, and after hearing Buddha's talk one day, she entered the nun's order. And then for the next seven years, she sincerely followed the Buddhist path, but this is a quote from her, without having attained peace of mind at any time. So kind of at a point of despair, she attempted suicide, went to the forest with a rope, didn't die, and felt like that was a deep religious experience in the beginning for her, and she reached her enlightenment at that point. And her breakthrough had elements of peace, serenity, and of the body and mind being perfect. And her, here we go. Okay. Obsessed by sensuality, I never got to the origin,

[26:51]

but was agitated, my mind beyond control. I dreamed of great happiness. I was passionate, but had no peace. Pale and thin, I wandered seven years on a happy day and night. Then I took a rope into the forest and thought, I'd rather hang and go back to that narrow lane. Yeah, I like that story because she was just very ordinary. And I kind of feel like I just kind of related to that somehow. Just kind of being like, you know, just kind of like going through the schedule, just kind of, you know, trying, but, you know, exciting. How did you feel about the suicide attempt, her? Yeah, I don't feel, I was going to say, I don't feel that, you know, because it's interesting. She's just, you know, no story behind her. She wasn't, I would never say didn't go into it. She's just had a very ordinary life. And, you know, she's kind of like that. Her name is Linus, my last name is Linus.

[27:54]

Lots of loving having to do anything like that. Like that. So one just had the poem, which was the one that Siha just had? Tisa. Tisa. And you said you chose one that was, did you do two? I did. Yes. Oh, so that was just Tisa. So there's also another one? Oh, no, that was Siha. I just did. Oh, that was Siha. Yeah, I did hers because Tisa only had the poem. Do you want to read the poem of Tisa? Yeah. Tisa, practice the practice. Don't let attachments overwhelm you. Freed from ties. Live in a world without obsessions. Practice the practice. I have a little bit from Tisa. Oh, you do? I didn't come up with it. Well, this is something someone made. Just a little paragraph about each one. She's from Kapilavastu, a Shakyan family, part of the Buddha's harem.

[29:03]

She renounced with Pajapati, practiced insight, and became Arhat when the Buddha appeared as a ray of light. Do you know what harem means? Well, I think it means what we think it means. The Buddha had consorts. He had many women who were at his disposal, I guess, who lived. And I guess different rulers had women who were part of the household that were not necessarily wives. I guess I would think of it with a sexual connotation. Definitely, yeah. But I guess not in Buddha's harem. Oh, I think so. I think maybe so. Well, they were dancing. You know, there's the story of his great leave-taking where he sees the harem sleeping, all these women asleep,

[30:06]

and you see it in art where there are these women from the harem who were dancers and musicians and so forth, and they've all fallen asleep, and just like sleeping people do, they're snoring probably and drooling and whatever else people do. It's not very charming, and sort of disheveled. And he sees this and kind of sees they're in these attitudes of, they don't look so alluring anymore. Actually, there's one of these precepts about not having monks and nuns not sleeping in the homes of laypeople for their own protection because the laypeople then see them in these attitudes of dishevelment and not in mindful taking care of themselves, and this is not very encouraging sometimes. And the laypeople complained to the Buddha,

[31:09]

and he said that made it a precept, one of these precepts that you're not to sleep overnight in a layperson's house. So anyway, I think those women came with that. It was a privilege probably of that. But didn't he take vows of celibacy? Oh, this is before, not the Buddha. Shakyamuni, Gautama. He didn't have a harem afterwards. No, no, this was before he had sleep-taking, before he left home. You actually said the Buddha. Oh, OK. Oh, that's why you're looking at me that way. No, the Buddha, no. Shakyamuni, Gautama. So everyone else was celibate. Oh, yeah. It was a little kind of... No, no, the celibacy was, you know, the brahmacharya, the living life of purity, as they called it,

[32:10]

the pure life was a major factor that set them aside from the laypeople, as is the same in Catholicism. I just didn't know if that was a metaphor or something. Well, from what we know of the precepts and all that were set down for the orders who were living, they were imitating the life of Shakyamuni Buddha. That's what their life was. Yeah. OK, let's do one more. Yes? Yes. What was her name again? Buddha. She...

[33:19]

Yeah. So she grew up and her family, I guess they weren't very wealthy, but she was just sort of an ordinary person. And she married a man. And then... And then... I can't remember. You can look at the book, it's OK. Yeah. So she... It was sort of like a marriage. Her family didn't have any money, and she had a hunchback and sort of... Not a very happy marriage. And I guess eventually she convinced him to allow her to remain as a nun. And she took up her new life of great sincerity and became a nun.

[34:24]

And... Let's see. And her poem, her poem I really like. Free, I am free. I am free by the means of three crooked things, mortal pretzel and my crooked husband. I'm free from birth and death and all that drags me back. And... I'd like to... I mean, it's a little bit... It's a little bit like... I'm free! It's a little bit like... It's selfish or something, maybe. But it's also like... I mean, you just get that sense of how much it would suck to have to marry someone just because, you know, we're poor and it's just all economic and you're just stuck in this situation or something. So... And so I'd like that. And... Yeah. I think that was one of the main things about the Order of Nuns

[35:31]

is that it gave women this other avenue. They only had... It was just marriage. And having kids, that was the only thing that was of value in the society. And here was this whole other thing you could do that didn't include being under your husband or father or family. And you could educate yourself. You could practice. You could wander. You were free! Really. So that really... Really brings it out. Except for all those rules. Yes, well... It's hard to be seen. I'm so afraid of you. In a way, I mean... It's very easy to understand how the prostitutes would say to the nuns... I guess there was one instance where they were bathing in the same place and they were kind of laughing and saying, you know, why don't you take pleasure now and be a nun later?

[36:32]

Because it does look, from the outside, like it's a very hard choice. I'm not so sure. But maybe just something based on... A different idea of grace. A really different idea of grace. The rules are rules here. And you can kind of know them. And you can do... You can live with them. But like a person, like a husband, he can always change the rules. So there's that, too. It's like, as a nun, you're kind of okay. You can do this and this and this and not this and this and this. I think that would be different. I think the fact that people voluntarily said, I want to do this, you know, so it was... Rather than it being imposed, they voluntarily joined and committed themselves.

[37:37]

And as we know, or hopefully even we have a taste of it here, like in practice period, for example, when we follow the schedule, and it's very... Somebody from the outside would say, What do you mean you feel free and relaxed and happy? Or you don't necessarily feel that all the time. But the freedom, what we usually think of freedom, is doing whatever we want whenever we want. It's a kind of regular old Western individualistic sense of freedom. I'm free, I can go here, there, do whatever I want. But actually, unless we have... Unless we are internally free, that doing everything, going and doing whatever we want, is just being pushed around by our habits, propensities, routinized thinking, fears, greed, hate, delusion. That's what we're doing. That's what we're running off doing. We're going over here to be sure we don't get something happening over here,

[38:39]

and we're eating this because it's not free. It's being completely subsumed with delusions, really. So then you give someone, Well, how about doing this, this, this, and this? And you begin to work with your habitual way of doing things. And you see, I'm free. I don't have to eat five pieces of chocolate cake. I can actually say, No, thank you. That's freedom. Not necessarily five pieces of chocolate cake, but you know what I mean. To be able to decide about what you want to do, because it's a benefit, it's out of clarity and calm, and what's non-harming, rather than what we... And that may mean... Anyway, we can find out about that often by going into the bamboo tube, which is what we talk about as practice period, where you can learn about these tendencies and propensities and let go of them.

[39:42]

So that's real freedom. So you take on these various guidelines or rules, and you find out about what's real freedom. And they talk about... So that's one aspect of these. Shall we switch into this? Is it time? Let's see. So this particular book, Sisters in Solitude, is a translation of the Pratimoksha Bhikshuni. Bhikshuni are the nuns, and the bhikshus are the monks. And this is the Bhikshuni Pratimoksha Sutra. Pratimoksha means conducive to liberation.

[40:44]

The Buddhist canon or the Buddhist literature is divided into what they call three baskets. There's the sutra basket. All the sutras are in the sutra basket. And there's the vinaya basket, V-I-N-A-Y-A, or vinaya. I think it's a vinaya basket. And then there's the avidharma basket. They call them baskets, how they're divided. And in the vinaya is the Pratimoksha, meaning these rules for the nuns and the monks' order, as well as also in the vinaya are vastus, which are the basis of training their stories about how these rules came to be, what happened so that the Buddha said such and such, and then that became a rule. So these are called sutras, Pratimoksha sutras, and they were, but they're not in the sutra basket, they're in the vinaya basket. And the vinaya has all these guidelines and rules. So the Buddhist teaching broke into 18 different schools in India,

[41:55]

and those 18 different schools all had their own Pratimokshas. They all had their own sutra about what the guidelines were that were slightly different. And the two that are translated here are the Dharmagupta and the Mula Sarvastivada. And the Dharmagupta Pratimoksha, that particular one, was translated into Chinese. So you took this probably Sanskrit original text, of which we don't have a copy anymore, and it was translated into Chinese. And then the Mula Sarvastivada one was translated into Tibetan. So there are two kind of strands of Bhiksuni guidelines. Now the Chinese one, the Dharmagupta one, is an active, alive, the Bhiksuni order is still alive in China.

[43:03]

China, Korea, and Vietnam all have this Dharmagupta sutra. And in Tibet, this Mula Sarvastivada, they never had a Bhiksuni order. The order never got to Tibet. And they felt that it was possibly because India, the Himalayas, the Himalayas were too difficult to cross, and that the nuns, in order to ordain more nuns, you need to have a sangha of nuns. That means no less than five nuns. And you need to have a preceptor who's been a preceptor for 12 years at least. So you need those conditions in order to pass on and start a new order. And that never happened in Tibet. But it happened in other countries. During King Ashoka's time, which is about 300 years after the Buddha died,

[44:05]

King Ashoka in India was a Buddhist king, and he sent missionaries out, including his son, Mahinda. He sent him to Sri Lanka, and he preached the Dharma there. And the sister-in-law to the king of Sri Lanka became, upon hearing the Buddhist word, became a stream-enterer, meaning she, I think you're familiar with stream-enterer, and never-returner, and once-returner, and arhat. So she entered the stream and became a Buddhist follower and wanted to be ordained. And so he said, well, ask your brother-in-law, the king of Sri Lanka, to ask King Ashoka in India to send bhiksunis, because I can't ordain you. It needs the bhiksuni sangha. And King Ashoka's daughter was also a nun. She was a teri. She taught. And so he sent for her and five bhiksunis, and they came to Sri Lanka. And so the Sri Lankan bhiksuni order was started in like 300 BCE.

[45:14]

And so that order got started. Thailand never got a bhiksuni order. And let's see, Burma, Cambodia, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and Thailand all had the male order but did not get a female order. Sri Lanka did, but then it was destroyed later on. So the ones that lasted were the ones that went into China, Korea, Vietnam, and they're still active today. And now it's growing throughout Asia. And especially with Karma Lakshmi Thoma, she wants to have a universal bhiksuni sangha throughout, reestablish the bhiksuni sanghas in these places where they either died out

[46:21]

or wasn't transmitted. So now, just to give you a little background on her, she received in Korea and China, in Taiwan, the bhiksuni order. She's now a member of the bhiksuni order, the fully ordained, as are many other Tibetan Westerners who were ordained in the Tibetan tradition. They have a nun's order, but it's a novice. It's not a full. Same in Thailand. They have a novice, meaning they take ten precepts. But when you're a novice, when you're forever a novice, you don't receive the donations. The laity do not think of you as being objects of merit, so they don't give to you. You're not educated because you're not fully ordained. So that and that we talked about, the eight special rules, kind of contributed to women's place being not equal to, not in parity with.

[47:22]

So this is the first English translation full of these sutras, of the rules. I.B. Horner, who was from the Polytext Society in the early 1900s, did parts of it, but not the full. So this is the first English translation. There's introductory verses to encourage you to practice these and to exhort and encourage the nuns to practice them, and then they talk about why it's wonderful to practice these. And then at the end there's concluding verses. So these have enormous interest for sociological, historical. These were legal. They had a legal side to them, because if you didn't follow the guidelines and the rules, then included in these documents were what were the consequences

[48:27]

and how that was adjudicated or how that was resolved within the sangha. So the sangha was kind of judge and jury for each other. So there was that aspect of it. There was how do you live in harmony with all these different people from different walks of life. As you know very well from living in community, it's sometimes hard to get along. I'll read some of these. These were regular people, just like we all are regular people, and the things that the occasions for making rules had to do with behavior of these people. The rules did not come ready-made from the Buddha. There were no rules. You just practiced. The Buddha said, Come, monk, come, nun, practice with me. We're going to eat in this way. And then things would happen, and then a rule would be made. So they're very circumstantially brought about.

[49:28]

Isn't that how the first rule of Tathagata came about? There really weren't any rules and circumstances brought about? Yeah, I think Suzuki Roshi, well, there were certain things. But yes, we didn't have... It was pretty open. You've probably heard stories. People, they'd go to Zazen, maybe, maybe not. It was very loose. And Suzuki Roshi didn't come from that kind of tradition, but he didn't set it all out. He was very open, well, let's see how this all goes. And then it became very clear that there was problems, there was disharmony. Having mixed bathing, which we did have at that time. Actually, that was before my time. But it was just the baths, and it was just open. Men and women just bathed together, and there were problems that came out of that. People were not comfortable with that. So we said there would be men's bath and women's bath. That didn't take away all the problems, but a lot of problems were addressed by that.

[50:32]

And then we have a requirement that you go to the zendo. That's why you're down here. If you don't want to, then maybe you shouldn't be here. So then who's not in the zendo? And then there was tankening and so on and so forth. So they were all built from circumstances, exactly. Many of these, when you read them, you say, oh, this is exactly what's going on now. I'll read one to you where I know of an instance that was exactly the same. We didn't have a rule specifying it, but the rule was actually down there because this kind of thing happens in human interactions. So it was a social organization. It was a kind of legal organization. It was an etiquette. It was personal how you eat together and live together in a way that etiquette has to do with what's not harmful to other people and what doesn't disturb other people. So this is set.

[51:35]

It starts out with these opening verses, and then they have different sections according to the most serious things that you can break. And those are the parajikas, and there's eight parajikas, which means defeat. And the defeat means that if you break these or if you do these particular actions, you are not a nun or a monk anymore. And the monks and nuns had the same four, and then the nuns had four more, which were added. So the nuns were junior to the monks because their sangha started five years after the monks. So they inherited many of the things that were based on the monks' misbehavior, what the monks were up to, and then the Buddha said, please don't do this. And so they got all those, and then more were made according to what the bhiksunis did or did not do.

[52:36]

So some of them don't really work for them, like there's one about don't urinate standing up, which was made for the monks. So there's some that they didn't. I don't know why that was one, but it was. So some of them are very particular. It's good advice anyway. So the first eight are the worst, worst meaning the most serious, and if you break those, you're defeated, and it's not that the nuns and monks say, expel you. You yourself defeat yourself by doing these things, and so you're just out. And then after that, there's one called the remainders, where you're kind of suspended, and there's a bunch of those, and there has to be a meeting of at least five sangha members to kind of go over what happened,

[53:40]

and then there's probation, kind of a probationary period. Those are called sangha-vasesha dharmas. The next ones, you don't probably want to know what the Sanskrit is, but it's so much fun to say. Nisargika-payantika dharmas are called the abandoning downfalls or lapses entailing forfeiture, and that you need to confess to the assembly that you did such and such. And then there's propelling downfalls, where you have to confess, and there's a self-imposed confinement. Then there's offenses requiring confession, and these are all, as I go down the list, these are lighter offenses until the last ones are more like etiquette things, where there's no real punishment, but there's no real consequences,

[54:42]

just these are the etiquette of how you live together. So there's a bunch of those. And then at the end of all these Pradyumoksha Sutras are how you reconcile. Thich Nhat Hanh, maybe some of you have read the seven stages of reconciliation. It, I believe, comes from this, because there's seven different methods for dissolving disputes, for resolving disputes. So it's what we actually do. You come together, and each person tells their story. You listen. You have to come with a mind that's ready to hear. Anyway, there's just very basic ways of reconciling differences that's also included in here. So I thought I'd start with the Parijikas. Actually, it's interesting. One of them is not to read these to people who have not received the full precepts. And I can see why,

[55:44]

because it may be discouraging to someone. They might read and say, you mean somebody did that, and the Buddha had to say you can't do that? You may be discouraged and say, gee, I don't know if I want to be part of that. So it's like washing your dirty laundry. It's like you don't necessarily put out the family secrets here, because someone may not be encouraged by that. But I think in terms of studying it, maybe it's important to just say a few words about suspending our critical or judgmental mind and just realizing these are human beings trying to practice in a particular way 2,500 years ago, so preliterate. This was all orally transmitted, and they have the same greed, hate, and delusion that we do. It's just like the difficulties that come up in the sanghas in modern day,

[56:48]

all the difficulties we know of. So these are the Dharmagupta ones. These are the ones that were translated into Chinese and are still actively... Oh, I just wanted to say one more thing before I read, is that we had the Bodhisattva ceremony this morning, the full moon ceremony. These sutras were recited on the new and the full moon, and if you don't do that, that's one of these offenses that needs expiation or resolving in some way. So this ceremony is the oldest Buddhist ceremony, the reciting on the new and the full moon. We have an abbreviated version, just the full, not the new, but it was a lunar calendar and on the new and full moon, so it was the 15th and the 30th or whatever, first and the 15th. Pre-Buddhist times, the wandering ascetics would get together on the new and full moon and practice together. So Buddha took that up, and the monks and nuns would first get together on the new and full moon

[57:51]

and just sit, and the lay people would gather too, but they began to say, well, why are they just sitting? We would like to hear some teachings. So then they began to give teachings, and part of the teaching was, what it evolved into was reciting the rules of the order, I guess the lay people would have to leave them because this was only for the people in the order. The nuns would do their rules and the monks would do theirs, and then it was a time that if anyone had broken a rule or not observed it properly or knew of another person, this was said many different times, if you hide the fact that so-and-so has broken a rule, that was then breaking a rule. So then you had a chance to confess it, and then there was some resolution of it or the consequences.

[58:53]

So it evolved into this confessional time of confessing, and later on that changed to just more of a ritual reciting, and when it got to Japan, of course, Japan is one country that did not, the monks and nuns did not receive Pranimoksha precepts. We received Bodhisattva precepts, the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, both lay and priests in Japan. So it's kind of an anomaly because, as in many ways Japan is, because in these other countries they had these full ordinations, and in China there was another one, the 48 Brahmajala ones, precepts, it's another Bodhisattva ordination, but Japan never had these. They had 16 Bodhisattva precepts, so that's what's come down to us through our lineage, which is an abbreviated kind of version.

[59:55]

What we do on our full moon is abbreviation, but it comes from, it's the oldest Buddhist ceremony, to come together and to recite precepts, and also we do ancient twisted karma, which is the repentance and confession, and we invoke the presence of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, we do that with lots of bells and lots of bowing, then there's the Bodhisattva vows, and then we take refuge, and then we've added, just in the last 10 years or so, reciting of the precepts following the three refuges. So we are in a long lineage, more than 2,500 years of religious practicing people coming together on the new and the full moon to kind of rededicate, reconsecrate their practice, refresh and encourage each other. So the first eight, which means if you break them,

[61:01]

you are defeated, and you basically can't call yourself a nun or a monk anymore. The first is silence. They ask after them, elder sisters, I've recited the eight parashikas, if a bhiksuni has committed any of these parashikas, she is no longer allowed to live with other bhiksunis. She will be what she was before, so you become lay just automatically. And then now I ask you, elder sisters, and they do this after each section, are you pure in this regard? And then if you are pure, then there's silence. So silence means assent. Silence means yes, we are pure. So this is... I don't know, somehow this... Have you heard this before, that silence means assent? Is that something that you've heard before? No? Yes? Okay. So this is recited and then there's silence,

[62:05]

which means everyone's in accord. Is this in both the male and female? Yes. So here's the first one. If a bhiksuni engages in the impure conduct of sexual activity, even with an animal, then that bhiksuni commits a parashika and is expelled from the order. I found that very interesting, that that detail of even with an animal is included. That's what I mean by what the Buddha had to say because this was something that happened, you know? And... What? Is that uncommon for the monks to say that? Well, I don't know. This is the same as for the monks and the nuns. So they inherited, the first four were the monks, and then the last four were added. The next one, suppose... There's kind of little stories as you go. Suppose a bhiksuni, in an inhabited place or a secluded area,

[63:09]

with the intention of taking what is not given, takes something, and if she is arrested by the king or a high official of the king, or tied up, or executed, or deported with these words, you are a thief, you are a fool, you are ignorant. If a bhiksuni takes what is not given in such a way, then that bhiksuni commits a parashika and is expelled. So it's the precept of taking what is not given, but they go into, you know... Okay, this is three. If a bhiksuni deliberately kills a human being with her own hands, gives a knife to someone for that purpose, praises death, admires death, or exhorts death, then that bhiksuni commits a parashika. So it's not only you killing someone, but also, oh, that was good that that so-and-so killed so-and-so. That also is... And in the Tibetan one, in the Mula Sarvastivada one,

[64:14]

it also specifically includes a fetus. The Chinese one doesn't say... Let me find this one. In the Tibetan... If a bhiksuni intentionally takes the life of a human being or a fetus with her own hands... Do you know fetus, what that means? It's the unborn child. Unborn is called fetus, embryo, or fetus of any. Takes the life of a human being or a fetus with her own hands, gives a weapon to someone, incites someone to take up a weapon, urges death or praises death, saying, Why live such a foul, dreadful, non-virtuous life? It would be easier to die than to live such a life. With such a wish and idea in mind, should she employ innumerable methods to cause death or praise death, then at the time it is done, that bhiksuni commits a parashika and is expelled.

[65:17]

So the intention is the same, but there are slight differences between the Tibetan, that school. It's the Tibetan translation of an Indian school. These are all Indian schools that were then translated. The fourth one... This is... The Tibetan one says that if a bhiksuni who is not clairvoyant, not all-knowing, says such a thing, and this one says, suppose a bhiksuni who is actually ignorant praises herself, saying, I have achieved superhuman faculties. I have penetrated the sage's wisdom and the supreme dharma. I know this. I see that. And at a later time, whether questioned or not, wishing to purify herself, says, Elder Sisters, I really did not know or see what I said I did. It was deception and lies. Unless that bhiksuni has overly esteemed herself, that bhiksuni commits a parashika and is expelled.

[66:22]

That last line about, unless that bhiksuni has overly esteemed herself, I'm not exactly sure the intent of that. They say it here, Noble Sisters, if she did not simply say it out of genuine pride, but with the deliberate intention of telling a lie. So you can be prideful, but if you intend to tell a lie about your accomplishments, being proud is one thing, but intentionally telling a lie about your accomplishments, especially about the dharma, about superhuman faculties, because supposedly along with arhatship comes all-seeing and clairvoyance and superhuman abilities, walking on water and various things that they talk about, that were used to convert people.

[67:25]

What can I say? I don't know. I just know what it said. So if you lie about that, you're out, you're defeated. Now these next four were for just bhiksunis, and it's about contact with a man. And there's also lots of different things about contact with a woman, which I found very interesting. But this is about contact with a man. If a bhiksuni with lustful mind has physical contact with a man with lustful mind, in the area between the armpits and the knees, and the Tibetans say, in the area between the eyes and the knees, and then in the Chinese they really go into it, and as I read it, it's very erotic actually just reading it. With lustful mind in the area between the armpits and the knees,

[68:27]

be it touching, holding, stroking, pulling, pushing, rubbing up or down, lifting, lowering, grasping or pressing, that bhiksuni commits apartheid and is expelled. So they cover the territory. We can imagine trying to find all the loopholes. Right, lifting. Well, I was only lifting. Right, that's right. I wasn't rubbing. I was lowering. Let's see, the Tibetan one says... That's how the nose rubbing. It's sort of above the forehead. That's why the Tibetans put the eyes. Yeah, maybe that's why. The Tibetan says a little different. If a bhiksuni aroused by desire

[69:28]

comes into bodily contact with a man aroused by desire such that they touch one another between the eyes and the knees, and should she accept having had the experience of fully touching him, then that bhiksuni commits aparjika and is expelled from the order. So she actually has to kind of knowingly and willingly, fully have this experience aroused by desire. Okay, number six. Suppose a bhiksuni with lustful mind knows a man has a lustful mind, yet allows him to hold her hand, hold her clothes, and enter a secluded place where they stand together, talk together, walk together, lean on each other, and make an appointment to meet, to make love. If a bhiksuni transgresses these eight things, she commits aparjika and is expelled. So it's almost like creating all the conditions where,

[70:29]

because walking together, it's having a lustful mind with somebody with a lustful mind, and then walking together in a secluded place. This is not any different than kind of conversations that I have had with people who are trying to practice with, let's say, the six-month rule that we have here, the guideline for not starting a new relationship during your first months here as you're establishing your practice. And then they say, well, does that mean, what are we talking about? Does that mean walking together? Does that mean, well, how about this? Well, how about that? Can we do this? How about this? So this is not so different really from conversations that I've had last week with somebody, not last week, but... The last 30 years. Yeah, where it's like at what point, what are the conditions? And Suzuki Roshi asked the various disciples not to visit each other's room.

[71:36]

Why? Because it creates these conditions where what you've committed to practice with is very hard to practice with. So number seven of the parjikas, if a bhiksuni, knowing that another bhiksuni has committed a parjika, but concealed it, does not report this to Saga members or proclaim it to the assembly, and later, after that bhiksuni has died or been publicly exposed or has abandoned the path or has joined a non-Buddhist group, says, I knew that she had previously committed such a transgression. Then that bhiksuni commits a parjika and is expelled because she concealed the other's serious offense. So the gravity of knowing that someone is not in accord and not letting other people know is one of the most difficult, I mean, the most strong offenses.

[72:44]

So confidentiality? Well, it's an issue. What is confidentiality? They're saying in terms of this, you can't conceal it. Mia? I was wondering if maybe that was one reason why these things should only be heard by fully ordained people, because it seems to me like they've all achieved a certain level where they wouldn't be just condemning someone else out of their own, or hopefully not out of their own, wanting to look better. Because that seems like it's a big part of it, and I know that they seem a lot more literal for some reason, and it seems to have more to do with fully ordained, many, many priesthoods. But it seems like in this situation they're much more able to point to something and say, this is wrong and this is not. Like at the ceremonies, for example, I know the nuns had to come forward and go to the monks as well.

[73:47]

Yes. It seems like this now, the way we do it, it's more like you'll never know if somebody else is breaking priesthood, because at least I feel like I couldn't possibly know, because I don't know what their anticipation of it is. And people have not made that commitment. That's why during practice period when we actually ask people, do you want to do this? We actually specifically say, do you want to stay in the valley the entire time without leaving? Yes, I do. Do you want to follow the schedule? Yes. Do you want to, you know, these are the guidelines. Is this what you really want to do? Yes, yes. So in that situation I think, I don't know about concealing, I don't think, I think we do affect each other strongly. I think there's been situations where people are discouraged because they see that someone isn't really following it, whether it's, didn't we all agree to do this?

[74:49]

Aren't we all kind of in this together? And so there's disharmony, you know. You know, this thing about milk and water, students should be like milk and water, this is what Kyoshi said for practice period. This is this milk and water where we're in accord, where there's harmony. And I think they have this in here, milk and water. It comes from that early, they say milk and water in here, which I noted to read to you because I was, so in terms of concealing someone else, as you all know when you know that someone is not in accord and you're concealing it, there by definition is a kind of disharmony there. It basically means the person doesn't want to, they may not want to do this, so let's get it out there.

[75:49]

I really don't want to do this, you know. So... It seems like there is so much, they must be so serious about it, because I noticed, just to say, like the few precepts we have with just right speech alone. Yes. I mean, every five minutes I probably mess up on that one. You know, anybody could probably interpret it in a different way and say that was hurtful. It seems like it would be so difficult to have this constant pressure if somebody could say that, that was hurtful. Yes, and I think, you know, we have the spirit, there's the spirit in the letter, you know, and I think the spirit of it is, I think we give each other a lot of room, you know. I think that's kind of, we give, what does Suzuki Yoshi say, our cows a wide pasture, you know, for people to find their own way, to realize themselves what's going on, to bring it up.

[76:50]

But sometimes we do bring it up, you know, sometimes. But not in this kind of public way, you know. I don't think, I mean, it's a very particular tradition that's lasted for many, many years, for thousands of years. But one has to really say, I want to live this way. That open, that exposed, that... Well, anyway, I don't know what other word to use there, but that isn't our, that's not right now our way, you know. I found that thing about milk and water, let me just read it, it's... It's the next level down, where it says, Suppose a bhikshuni wishes to harm the harmonious Sangha,

[77:52]

diligently uses expedient means to do so, accepts methods to destroy the Sangha, and refuses to desist. Then another bhikshuni should admonish that bhikshuni, saying, Elder Sister, you should not destroy the Sangha, should not use expedient means to destroy the Sangha, should not harm the harmonious Sangha, or accept methods to destroy the Sangha without desisting. Elder Sister, you should go in harmony with the Sangha. By going in harmony with the Sangha, you will be happy and non-contentious. You will study with the teacher harmoniously, with others like milk and water. There will be increasing benefit in the Buddhadharma, living in peace and happiness. If when a bhikshuni admonishes that bhikshuni, she persists in her misconduct, then the bhikshuni should admonish her three times. If she accepts the admonishment and refrains from her misconduct, even after the third time, good. If she does not, then on the third admonishment, that bhikshuni commits a Sanghavasesha, requiring repentance.

[78:54]

So, this is this next degree where they have to, if she continues wanting to do these other things, but she's admonished. On Wednesday we talked about disparaging Buddhadharma and Sangha, disparaging the triple treasure. This thing about harmony, it's about the Sangha treasure and the importance of it. So, the reason you do it is because you will be happy. There will be benefit. You will live harmoniously. I want to just do the last parajika, because it's right about nine, and then those eight will be... Oh, just about that seventh one. I thought it was interesting, in the Chinese they say, if after the person dies, she said, well, I knew that one. I knew she broke it, you know. That's like... They don't like it. Okay, number eight. Suppose a bhikshuni continues to obey a bhikshu,

[79:56]

whom she knows has been suspended by a karma, that's an act of the Sangha, of the assembly, in accordance with the Dharma, the Vinaya and the Buddha's teaching, and has not yet been absolved because of his refusal to obey and repent. Then other bhikshunis say to her venerable sister, this bhikshu has been suspended by a karma of the assembly in accordance with the Dharma, the Vinaya and the Buddha's teaching, and has not yet been absolved because of his refusal to obey and repent. You should not obey him. If, when the bhikshunis admonish her, this bhikshuni persists in her misconduct, then the bhikshuni should admonish her twice or even three times to desist. If she desists after the third admonishment, good. If she does not, that bhikshuni commits a parijika and is expelled for the fault of following a bhikshu convicted in a karma. So you have this bhikshu who's been expelled, basically, and in the commentary she says, this has to do with becoming really attached to people

[81:00]

who have not been part of the Sangha, and you want to go and follow them and do what they say, but they've been expelled. You can't work with them anymore, they're not part of it. But if you persist, you want to, you like that guy, he was really a great guy, and then you're admonished. This one they give you three chances or more to see that this is not acceptable, and then you defeat yourself. So you can feel the kind of human quality where you know how it is. I mean, I know how it is, where you really, even though somebody kind of does something that makes big trouble, you still are fond of them, but in this case they're not part of the Sangha,

[82:03]

and that means you can't have a certain access or contact with them. So if you persist... So those are the four then, those last four. That the Shudis have. What is this thing downstairs? Oh my God! It's been like that for months. That's too bad. That's in a person's room? That's in A&E. Yeah, it's in L.A. That's too bad. Yeah. I wonder what else it's in. I just had a comment. Yes. Those sound just as good for bhikkhus as for bhikkhushus. Those last four, yes they do, they do. Yeah. You know I was thinking of that. Yes. Well there's... The bhikshunis have 338 in one center, 317, and the men have 250 or so. So there's... They really pile them on in terms of relationships between the men and women.

[83:08]

They make it more the women's responsibility. But I really see the difference of how I would have looked at these at a younger age than how I look at it now. I think that's a big difference. These are, for those of you who are new, these are bibliographies, would you like? I don't know if you'll ever... If you'd like to, you can. Would you like this? I think the first or second one about death, like not to think good of death. Depression is very common in women, and I think thoughts of death go with depression. You want to die or you want... It's despair. And I think to have this prohibition, you cannot think well of death or something, that almost forces you to lie and say, okay, I'm not thinking about death, when you might. Well, I think...

[84:13]

I mean, death as a... Thinking about death in terms of a practice is highly recommended. Death, death, death will come. The life force will be cut off. But praising death or weapons or that somebody killed someone else or taking life is... So I don't think it's necessarily thinking about death as praising it, but they also... There's one of these, that if someone is depressed, that they shouldn't be given the full precepts, the full ordination. Depressed, and there's other conditions where they say that you can't give them. So... But in your unconscious, you know, you might consciously not praise death, but in your unconscious, in your dreams or other areas, it seems very human to, you know, think about death. You know, to go in those places in your consciousness. Yeah, yeah. There's like emotions that just come up.

[85:15]

I mean, like... Impossible to control sometimes. Certain things that... What I got from this more is that there's a certain agreement that comes from the effort to practice them, and then there's a lot of, like, refuge there, because people have agreed to practice wholeheartedly as well as they can. And then the reason that there's, like, you know, the ceremonies, the sharing, is because you're going to have this feeling, and it's going to be like being in a band of doom, like... I just wanted to read that thing about the death again, just to... If a bhikshuni deliberately kills a human being with her own hands, gives a knife to someone for that purpose, praises death, admires death, or exhorts death, then that bhikshuni commits.

[86:17]

So, you know, I... This personally, sometimes I'll be, like, watching a movie, and the bad guy gets it, you know, and I find myself, like, saying, Yay! You know? And then I... I think it's about that, like, really... Because there's also admonition about not to see people arrayed for battle or to watch a battle, because it has to do with harming, you know? So... So I feel like the intention here is not necessarily... But I think that's a good point that you bring up. What happens when you're depressed? And, like Tisa, you know, she went to the... with a rope into the forest, right? Or was it Tisa or Siha? Siha. So this happens, you know? And... Maybe that's why they made this rule. Maybe they made the rule. It'd be interesting to find out. I mean, you understand... You can understand it more in the context of killing.

[87:20]

Yeah, it does not kill. Wanting harm to somebody, you know, that's pretty easy to, you know, accept. Yeah. But in terms of one's own depression or something, does that mean you have to be expelled, you know? Because this arose, this thought arose. Of course, it could arise, it could be just a thought and not something you actually really admire or praise or exhort. Okay. Thank you all very much. May our attention...

[87:55]

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