I would like to start my talk this morning by telling you a little story. This is an old Chinese story, Chinese legend, and the story has a title and the title of the story is, Which is the Real Chen. Once upon a time, in ancient China, there was a little girl named Chen and she was an inseparable playmate with a little boy named Zhao. They were together all the time, playing by the river, and one day Chen's father remarked jokingly, you two are together all the time, someday you'll marry. So Chen and

[01:05]

Zhao thought that they really were betrothed to each other and they played and grew up this way, always imagining that they would marry. But when Chen became old enough to be promised in marriage, a wealthy official approached her father and said that he would like to have her hand in marriage and the father agreed and she was promised to someone else. Zhao was very, very upset by this. He didn't think that he could bear it, so he decided that he would leave and go to a distant province. So he loaded all his stuff on his boat and he left in the middle of the night, polling and rowing down the river. And as he was

[02:10]

going by in the moonlight, he heard a soft cry on the riverbank and it was persistent and breathless and finally in the moonlight he looked and saw that it was Chen running alongside the boat. She had followed him. So he stopped the boat and she got on and they went away together to a distant province and they married and they had two children. But there was a restlessness in Chen's heart because she felt badly to have left her parents in that way and she couldn't really let go of her restlessness and so after six years, they came back up the

[03:14]

river to return to her village and try to make amends with her parents. When they got to the village, they were very nervous and Zhao asked Chen to stay in the boat and he would go up and greet her father. And when he saw her father, the father came rushing up to him, very happy to see him, and clasped his arms around him and said, how wonderful that you're here. We wondered where you were and it's so great that you're back. And Zhao didn't really know how to react to this. He thought maybe it was some sort of a trick or some plot or something. Thank you. And he said,

[04:17]

you are very kind to greet me this way, but I've come back to seek your forgiveness. And the father was really surprised at this statement. Why are you seeking my forgiveness? And Zhao said, well, for taking your daughter away that way. And a look of confusion and surprise came over the father's face. And he said nothing. He just said, come with me. And as they walked toward the house, he said to Zhao, on the day that you left in the boat, Chen fell ill. She's been in her bed ever since. She can't speak. She can't stand up.

[05:25]

She remains in a weakened state. And they walked into the room and there she was, lying in her bed, pale, looking barely alive. And when she saw Zhao, she smiled weakly. Of course, Zhao was completely astonished. And he said, you must come with me. And down they went to the boat. And when they got to the boat, there was Chen, sitting in the boat, perfectly healthy, wondering why her father and her husband were so freaked out. So they both

[06:31]

said, come with us. And the three of them walked up toward the house. And as they approached the house, the Chen that had been in bed for six years, arose and walked toward the Chen that had been living in a distant province for six years. And they met and they merged into one Chen. Which one is the real Chen? Old Chinese story. When we practice Zazen with some intensity for a period of time, various things begin

[07:42]

to happen in our lives. And although everybody's different and everybody's process is different, there are some things that quite frequently do happen. One of them is that we begin to be quite impressed with the power of desire in our lives. And we begin to notice many things about desire and how it works, how strong it is, how persistent it is, how subtle it is sometimes, how contradictory it is sometimes. And we begin to notice that on almost every moment of consciousness, there is some desire. And that it's easy to get caught by this desire. And that if we get caught by it, it becomes very, very strong.

[08:46]

And perhaps we can see nothing else in this whole world but our strong desire. But if we sit down with our desire and just let it arise and pass away without getting caught by it, we may begin to notice desires behind our desire and more desires behind that. Sometimes contradictory desires checking each other. So we begin to see that our life isn't strong and clear because of these dueling desires, bottled up desires bottling up our lives. For instance, if we're in a period of intensive practice as we are now at Green Gulch in practice

[09:58]

period, we might be impressed by how strong is our desire to practice and realize the way. And simultaneously impressed by how strong our desire is to escape and do something else, go to the movies, not to go to Zazen, not to continue with the practice. And even if we're not in a period of intensive practice, it might not be that unusual to be caught by a strong desire, by an obsessive desire, or by desires that are contradictory. And we get to see that desire produces suffering. We can think logically, well, if we didn't have desire, we wouldn't have this

[11:01]

kind of suffering. If we get something or we don't get something, whether it's a person in our lives or a job or some material object, it wouldn't make any difference to us if desire did not arise in our hearts. So without desire, we wouldn't have to suffer. On the other hand, if we eliminated desire altogether, our life might be kind of boring. Anyway, is it possible to eliminate desire? Isn't desire a necessary part of being a human being? So the desire itself brings up conflicting desires. We want desire in our lives and we also would like not to have desire in our lives. So how do we work with desire in our practice? Once a long time ago, I had a big insight into the nature

[12:05]

of my own desires and I'm going to tell you about that. One day, I realized having a big strong desire, I realized that every desire is already satisfied. That's it. When a desire arises, even if you don't do anything about it or act on it or anything at all, it already is satisfied. It's already satisfied. And this astonished me to realize this. It was very liberating to realize this. It's necessary to be present and still in order to see this. But it's true, if you don't react reflexively and habitually to a desire arising, reaching out somehow to satisfy it,

[13:06]

you can actually see the desire coming up in all its fullness, very bright, very vivid, very lively, very wonderful, and then see it unfold and pass away without anything having to be done about it. And it's already satisfied. The very process of the arising of a desire and its fullness and its passing away is itself the satisfaction of the desire. Before I had this experience, I always imagined that every desire poses a problem. Either you have to satisfy it or somehow eliminate it. But on this particular day, in this particular moment, maybe 20 or 25 years ago, I saw suddenly and to my great surprise that the desire that arose so powerfully in me was already satisfied, just the way it was,

[14:11]

without my having to do anything about it, and that all my habit to try to satisfy it or do something about it was just that, just a habit, unnecessary. That the desire itself was already beautiful and complete without my adding anything to it. Sexual desire, desire for food or fame or justification, which is a great big desire that we have. All these desires in our lives are very natural human desires and they are very, very beautiful, as beautiful as a tree budding in the spring. In fact, desires are very much like that, very much like a tree budding in the spring.

[15:15]

They just unfold. So I don't know if you can appreciate this or if this makes any sense to you, but this is what I experienced at that time and I won't forget it. The story I told you in the beginning, which one is the real jinn, reminds me of this trouble that we have with desire. Chen was a good girl, she was not a wild person, and yet she had two strong contradictory desires. She wanted to marry Chow and she also wanted very much to be loyal to her father and her family, and so she had to choose one. But actually she didn't really choose one. Her desires remained in conflict, and so her spirit was divided. Not really being able to give herself wholeheartedly to either her family or her husband,

[16:22]

she remained sick and weak. And this happens a lot in our lives, I think. Very often, forced to, by circumstances or habit, we do make choices in our lives and we proceed along a life path. But in fact, we haven't really been able to appreciate or integrate or admit our real desires. And we ignore or deaden parts of ourselves, and so our lives become pale versions of what they actually ought to be. And it is very, very hard, I think, to allow everything to come up in our lives in its fullness,

[17:25]

to really honor and give space for everything in our lives, and not have this be confusing, and not have this prevent us from carrying forward with our lives. And yet, I think this is what we really have to do if we're going to be fully the person that we are. And this is what the process of our practice can show us, because our Zazen practice can make a space large enough in our lives, bigger than our personality, bigger than our logic, a space in which there's enough room to accommodate everything in our lives. This story of Chen is brought up by Master Mumon in his collection of koan, the Mumonkan, and it's case 35 in that collection.

[18:29]

And the case itself reads very simply like this. Chen and her spirit separated. Which one is the real Chen? And that's the koan. And we might translate it for ourselves something like, our desires are very conflicting. Which is the real desire? Which is the heart's desire? Master Mumon gives a comment to this koan, that I think is very interesting and takes us a bit deeper with this issue. Here's his comment. If you see the real one, then you'll know that emerging from one husk and entering another is like a traveler moving from inn to inn.

[19:45]

Emerging from one husk, if you see the real one, you'll understand that emerging from one husk and going into another is like a traveler going from inn to inn. If this still isn't clear to you, don't run about recklessly. When you suddenly separate into earth, water, fire, and air, you'll be like a crab dropped in boiling water, struggling with your seven hands and eight legs. Don't say I didn't tell you. This is Master Mumon's comment to that case, to that story. Our desires fly by one after the other. Even the desire to realize the way is just another desire that flies by.

[20:48]

The wheel of life turns round and round. Desire turns round and round. Time falls down like raindrops, collects, and flows into the great ocean, evaporates, rises up, and comes down again in an endless, endless cycle. And desire itself is an endless journey. Arriving at each moment is like arriving at an inn. We stay the night and pass on, never to return again. When we understand the nature of our desires like this, there is no need to grab on. We can enjoy each desire as it is, and be willing to move on, just as we can enjoy our stay at an

[21:55]

inn, have a nice brunch, and leave the next moment without making arrangements to purchase the inn. Master Mumon says, if this is not clear to you, don't rush about recklessly. If this isn't clear to you, don't rush about recklessly. And I think this is wonderful advice. If the nature of desire is not yet clear to you, be careful. Running around here and there, trying to satisfy your desires will probably get you into trouble, and it certainly won't work. So give up right now, and just sit down and breathe.

[22:58]

And determine that you will stay with each and every desire, just where it is, appreciating it, studying it, clarifying the great matter of desire. And this is exactly how we practice in our practicing now, in our practice period, with our schedule every day. It's exactly how we practice during Sashin, intensive retreat, in each and every period of Zazen, on each and every moment, and on each and every moment of our lives. What is it? What is our life now? What is the actual practice of this moment? Remembering over and over again to bring everything in our lives back to this zero point, back to this letting go, back to this journeying, back to beginner's mind.

[24:04]

And he says, when you suddenly separate into earth, water, fire and air, you'll be like a crab, dropped in boiling water, struggling with your seven hands and eight legs. When at the end of our life, this physical body separates into the four elements of earth, water, fire and air, and this appearance that we have been, and that we have called our life, comes to a final end, we should be ready. And if we haven't understood and appreciated our desires for what they really are, at that time, we will be in a state of shock and panic, just like a live crab that's dropped into boiling water,

[25:11]

flailing with arms and legs everywhere, hopeless, a victim. Mumon brings up this last moment of life in a dramatic way, because that moment is our last chance. But in reality, each moment of our lives is the last chance, and the time to practice is always right now. There are times when it seems almost impossible to clarify our desire, especially when our mind is obsessed by a desire. And I'm sure everyone in this room has known in dramatic or not so dramatic ways this difficulty.

[26:16]

When something is in our mind or in our heart, and we simply cannot let go of it, even though we know it gives us pain, and we wish we didn't have to grab onto it like a bulldog, still, we cannot let go. We insist on holding on. Usually, this sort of thing happens to us because of some past event. Things that we have said or done, or that have been said or done to us in the past, produce a seed of unrest that's latent in our mind, and when a present circumstance arises, it awakens, sprouts this seed, and the energy simply can't be contained. In this case, it would be good, if possible, that we could let go of activity,

[27:23]

or if we can't let go of all activity, simplify activity and take care of the activity that we must do as quietly as possible, so that we can concentrate on just being present with what is arising, without trying to change anything or fix anything. And even if it's uncomfortable, we have to do that, to try to be aware and inclusive with what's arising, without doing too much. And then the next thing we have to do is also difficult. We have to accept responsibility for our state of mind. Even if what we're suffering is actually someone else's fault, still, we have to make our heart big enough to accept responsibility for it, because only in that way will we have the possibility of practicing with it and learning from it.

[28:33]

And this is very, very difficult, because it breaks our heart sometimes to admit that we are always responsible for our own mind. To accept that responsibility for all of our mental states is to accept that what is happening in our life, whatever it is, really is happening. As long as we are blaming something or someone else, then we're really not accepting what's happening. And as long as we're not accepting what's happening, then the fire of our obsession will continue to rage and burn everything in its path. And it's fanned, that fire is fanned by our non-acceptance.

[29:37]

As I say, if we really accept responsibility, our heart may be broken. It can feel like a loss of innocence or a loss of ourself, a loss of a dream, a loss of a cherished idea. But that's all right, because only in that way, brokenhearted perhaps, can we accept this responsibility, can we let in everything completely, and can we forgive. I've been talking about forgiveness a lot these days, and the other day I was in a Chinese restaurant, I snuck away from the practice period, and I went to a Chinese restaurant. It was research for the story about qian.

[30:49]

And I actually, no kidding, I got this fortune, a little fortune in a fortune cookie that said, to understand completely is to forgive completely. In Buddhism, there's a great traditional metaphor to describe these obsessive and difficult states of mind that seem, unfortunately, fairly common. Do you think so? Unfortunately, they're not that rare. And there's a great metaphor to describe them. It is said that in a distant realm far from here, called the realm of the hungry ghosts, there are beings who wander about starving all the time and constantly on the lookout for food. They have giant swollen bellies that they want to fill

[31:59]

but their throats are as thin as needles. So this is a terrible situation. They're trying to fill these great big bellies and they're compulsively trying to put as much food as they can down these little narrow throats. But no matter what they do, they remain terribly unsatisfied, which makes them agitated, of course. So they rage around their minds full of clouds of passionate desire. So they're terribly hungry always, and they're also very, very thirsty. And in the course of their raging and their wandering, they will see sometimes a beautiful clear river. And they rush toward the river for a drink, but suddenly magically appears standing between them and the river, these gigantic fierce guardian deities who beat them up so that they can't get to the river.

[33:04]

Once in a while they manage to slip through the legs of the guardian deity and come to the clear, cool river, but when they scoop up some water to take a drink, it turns into pus. So this is a terrible situation. And it's a very colorful image, I think, of our own raging desire. Maybe you can relate to these beings quite well. Sometimes we're running around just like them, looking for some elusive satisfaction, and nothing ever fills the need, and we're restless and raging. And once in a while, when by luck we get close to the river, close to some calmness, close to some real satisfaction, close to what's truest and strongest in our lives, then up comes the demon-like resistances within ourselves that beat us up

[34:11]

and keep us from getting that drink. And sometimes we manage to slip through, and we do get that drink, and then right in front of our eyes it turns into pus as we objectify it and try to grab it and hold on to it and name it. And we keep on encountering our human limitations, ghosting around, struggling with our spiritual practice. And this does happen. And although you may think that it's so peaceful and nice to come to a wonderful place like Green Gulch by the ocean and the farm and the garden and the kind and sweet Zen students, actually this sort of thing happens all too often in our spiritual practice.

[35:14]

It's quite common, and it may go on for some time. One week, one year, ten years. I've seen this. So what are we going to do? How are we going to escape the clutches of all these demons and trick rivers? Well, you may not believe this, but I think we have to just get lucky. I think we have to keep on making effort in our practice, keep on going ahead, straight ahead, the best we can, with the confidence that eventually

[36:18]

something or someone will just come along and help us out. And this does happen. And we keep going on, trusting that this will happen. And then we can find some peacefulness, even if we're still in the hungry ghost incarnation, we can find some peacefulness. And after we've been through this a number of times, we kind of get used to it, and it doesn't have quite so much intensity. Once there was a disciple of Buddha named Moggallana, and he was very close to Buddha. And at one time in his life, he was troubled by bad dreams. Every night he would dream of his mother. He was very close to his mother,

[37:21]

and she had recently passed away. And in the dream, his mother was wandering around in a horrible place, hungry and raving for food, unable to satisfy her hunger, and she seemed to be looking toward Moggallana for some help, but Moggallana in the dream couldn't do anything about it. And he dreamed this dream night after night, and would wake up in a sweat. And finally, he went to the Buddha and asked him, what can I do? Buddha said that in his dream, he was seeing his mother in the realm of the hungry ghosts. And that maybe it would be a good idea for the Sangha to get together and have a ceremony for these hungry ghosts, in particular for Moggallana's mother, so that she could be fed and offered teachings and be satisfied. Now, the interesting thing about this is that this discussion between Moggallana and Buddha

[38:23]

happened at the time of the full moon, which was the usual time for the monks and nuns to gather together for their confession ceremony, which happens in traditional Buddhist Sanghas. Twice a month, on the new moon and the full moon, they gather and they chant the precepts and then they discuss together how well they have kept the precepts that month. They pause in the midst of their lives to take a good look at their own conduct, to take responsibility for their conduct fully, to forgive each other, and then vow to try better. So they had a ceremony like that, and the very next day, Buddha and Moggallana had this conversation and did the ceremony for Moggallana's mother. We have a version of that ceremony, a Mahayana version of that old ceremony, that we did last night, actually, because the full moon was last night. And we also chant the Bodhisattva precepts and consider how well we have kept them,

[39:31]

take responsibility, forgive ourselves and each other, and try to do better. But because it happened at this time, and the ceremony for Moggallana's mother happened in conjunction in this way with the traditional confession ceremony, all the monks and nuns understood that there was a strong connection between the suffering of Moggallana's mother and their own actions. And they understood that to take care of Moggallana's mother in this way, in this ceremony, was also to take care of their own actions. And to take care of their own desires and obsessions. And to take care of their own desires and obsessions was also a way of taking care of Moggallana's mother. And ever since this time, in Buddha's day, the ceremony like this has been performed in Buddhist sanghas the world over, with this double meaning and purpose. To set to rest our own wild desires, to accept responsibility for what happens to us,

[40:39]

to forgive ourselves, to try to do better, and at the same time, to memorialize those people who have passed on, and give the energy of our practice to beings outside of us who are full of unrest. In Japanese, the word for hungry ghost is Gaki. And today, actually, we're going to have this ceremony at five o'clock. It's an interesting ceremony. It's very powerful. And even maybe a little bit dangerous. You invite all the hungry ghosts to come. And they show up a little tentatively. They're kind of frightened. And they're weak, just like Chen in the story. Their divided desires make them a little weakened. And they're shy to come around people. And even more shy to come anywhere around Buddhas or Buddhist teaching, which is really scary to

[41:44]

them. So that's why we don't do the ceremony at the main altar. We do it somewhere else so that they won't be frightened. Since Jizo Bodhisattva, to my left here, is a kindly Bodhisattva who transmigrates in all the realms, including the hungry ghost realm. Since they're not so frightened of him, we have the ceremony nearby him. So he kind of encourages them quietly. So the first thing we have to do is make a terrible sound, because this draws the creatures, the hungry ghosts. They don't like sweet music. They like cacophony. So we've been rehearsing with our monastic instruments to make as horrendous a sound

[42:45]

as we possibly can, so that the Gakki will appear. And after they tentatively come around, we speak to them very gently and let them reassure them that nothing bad will happen. Then we actually offer them food, which is cut up into very small pieces because of their small throats. And then we give them incense and offer them some very gentle teaching. And then we dedicate the ceremony to all suffering beings and all departed friends who may or may not have the energy of hungry ghosts. And throughout the ceremony, we bring with us our own hungry ghosts in our minds. And we allow them to come to the ceremony too, to be fed and nourished and subdued.

[43:46]

So you're all invited to bring your hungry ghosts and to memorialize departed ones in your family or among your friends. This is a ceremony we do every year at this time. Maybe you've heard about it before. And moved by it, that he took an even stronger vow to save his mother. So he actually went down into the realm of the hungry ghosts. He took a big hammer and he busted the lock on the gate and entered the realm of hungry ghosts to save his mother. Unfortunately, because the lock was broken, some of the hungry ghosts escaped from that realm and started ghosting around in the world at large. That's the Chinese legend. And there's a legend like this in almost every culture. This time of year, that the spirits of the departed ones, at a state of unrest,

[44:49]

escape from the nether realms into this realm. During the fall, usually, when the earth is turning toward quiet and darkness, these ghosts escape and come around. Halloween has a similar story behind it. And that's why we do Seigaki ceremony at around the time of Halloween. And to me, one of the curious things about this universal cultural norm is that it's associated with great festivity and joy and singing and dancing. Isn't that odd? And I think the idea is that you want to get the ghosts in a good mood so that they will feel okay about returning home.

[45:52]

Because it's very good to bring the ghosts and to pacify them and so on, but you would rather not have them hanging around all the time. There's a time and a place for everything and these ghosts ought to go home when the time comes. And so, you put them in a good mood by having a big festival and celebration. And in China, they have operas and circuses and all kinds of things at this time of year to celebrate this festivity. And this, I think, is a particularly human function. When you think about it, I don't think any other creature has a festival or a party except for human beings with singing and dancing and feasting. So, this may be a human function to perform for the rest of the creatures in the other realms that we would have a festival and singing and dancing so that the other creatures, the animals and the hungry ghosts and the hell beings and the demons would be a little bit mollified in their suffering while we're having our festival. So, I would

[47:02]

encourage all of you to attend or create your own festival this time of year, not only so you can have a good time, but for the benefit of these other creatures who are depending on us for these festivals. So, to me, this is such an interesting human patchwork, all coming together in one piece. Desire and obsession and the ghost-like suffering caused by desire and kindness to others and taking care of others in the deepest possible way and grief and remembering and taking responsibility for our own mind and forgiving ourselves and others and joy and feasting and singing and dancing, all of this come together,

[48:02]

all mixed up together and interconnected together, kind of like life, just like life. So, if any of you can come to join us for the ceremony this afternoon at five o'clock, please do. And whether you can come or not, I hope you will find some way to allow all your desire to arise and to see into its nature, to put it to rest, and to go on with the next moment of your lives. You're very patient to sit so long. Thank you very much.

[49:05]

This is a time for discussion, whatever you would like to bring up. And we have about an hour. So, what's on your minds? What would you like to talk about today? He's asking about desire, which was the topic of the talk today, and saying that I'm repeating for the tape, but also to make sure everybody can hear, because I got the big voice with the machine. That seems like desire is necessary. We wouldn't be able to do a lot of great things in life without desire. And if we just allow desire to arise and go away without acting on desire, then what kind of a world would we have? Is that a fair...? Yeah. So, yes, you're exactly

[50:22]

right. And I tried to indicate this to some extent in my talk. So, desire is a double-edged sword. It's tricky. And to me, the issue is not to eliminate desire. As I tried to say, you can't really eliminate desire. And even if you could, would you want to? What kind of a life would it be without any desire, without any forward movement, without doing anything? So, for me, the issue is, how can we understand desire for what it really is, and clarify our own desires in our life, and act from a calm and accurate basis? Because we all know that there are desires that we act on that are appropriate, and desires that we act on that are inappropriate, and it's very subtle and a minute question, moment after moment. So, how do we sort that out? And that's what I was trying to talk about, and trying to say that, see, a meditation retreat or a practice

[51:25]

period, like the one we're in now, is a kind of a laboratory. You don't live your life as you ordinarily would. If you're in a seven-day Sashin, you don't carry out your desires. You just do it with a schedule. When it's time to eat, you eat. You walk, you stand, you follow the schedule, you make no decisions, you carry out no desires. And that's a very special situation that's created in order for us to understand something about our lives. So, I was really speaking to that situation, and saying that when we, in that laboratory, can understand our desire in a new way, then the chances of our having clarity around what desire is and how it works, and acting appropriately, is much greater. So, yes, I agree, we need desire in our life, and it's normal and natural, and cannot be, anyway, eliminated. Even if we decided we didn't want any desire, it could not be eliminated. There's always some desire, but we need to get

[52:26]

clearer and a little closer to what our desire is and how it works. And I think, usually, we're not. We don't really know. We are impulsive about our desires. Even if we're thoughtful, we're not thoughtful enough. We may be thoughtful, but we don't see with the dharma eye into the real nature of our desires. So, that's what I was really talking about, that insight and some territory of really understanding our desires in a fresher way. But yes, of course, many things depend on a wholesome desire. But even then, with a wholesome desire, we have to be ready, I feel, at any moment, to let go of that desire. Because suppose I have a wholesome desire to do something and it doesn't work. Well, I have to have determination to continue with it, but suppose it still doesn't work, and suppose I get angry, and suppose I get upset, and suppose I start hurting other people because my desire is not being fulfilled. How do I know when to give it up, and how do I know when to

[53:34]

persist, and how do I know whether my desire has wholesome motivation and wholesome roots, and how do I know when it's selfish? So, even in the case of affirming desire and going forward with it, we need this understanding. So, I was just trying to raise the complexity of it all, not say desire is good or desire is bad. We have to spend some time to understand it more fully and act more skillfully with our desires, because we're not going to live desirelessly, I think. Especially in our practice, we're all, in a sense, worldly people. In other words, we live in the regular world and we do regular things, and so we have to contend with that and deal with that, and that's what our practice is all about. So, thank you. That's a good question. Maybe that clarifies a little bit. Yes, over here. Yeah, so she's talking about a situation in the past that she would like to be different, and the feelings of regret and lack of forgiveness

[54:36]

that come up in the present as she's looking at that situation. Yeah, so the past is very real because it comes up in the present. This is not the past, this is now, a feeling that arises in the mind and the heart now. So yeah, it's just what I was saying, that one has to be with that feeling and stay with it, and not spin around with thinking about it and all the circumstances, but just be with the gut feeling of whatever it may be, anger, regret, lack of forgiveness, desire to forgive, or whatever it is, just to be with that and to be with that. You know, there's an ancient ritual in Buddhism that we practice every day in our temple, which is called chanting the verse of confession, and the first line of the verse is,

[55:38]

all my ancient twisted karma, excuse me, and then it goes, all my ancient twisted karma from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, born through body, speech, and mind, I now fully avow. So all of the, because there's that incident that you're bringing up, but there's endless instances from the past, lifetime after lifetime, that come out of our natural confusion of greed, hate, and delusion, the three poisons, encouraged by our actions of body, speech, and mind, they're always with us. And every day after meditation we say, all of this I now fully turn over, I begin over again, I let go of it, I forgive. So, and that's a practice, that's considered to be a practice, to chant that verse and to try as much as possible to mean it seriously, is a practice. So you can do that,

[56:45]

you can actually use that verse, or write your own verse of forgiveness, and recite it to yourself in meditation practice, trying your best to make that your intention, and then observing if what comes up actually is anger, frustration, and so on, just to be aware of that, and own that. Say, yes, this is my intention to forgive, this is my intention to let go, but I see regret coming up, yes, that's regret, I understand regret, breathing with regret. I see hatred coming up, yes, I understand hatred, that's hatred, breathing with hatred, and then you go back to that all the time, and eventually you don't seize up around it so much, and eventually you can let it go. And it's a never-ending process, because something else will happen, you know what I mean, and then you'll have that. So to return to the present moment with awareness of what's actually going on, and trying to let go over and over again,

[57:46]

every single moment of our lives, that's our practice. And when we have something like that, that sort of sticks in our craw, we are quite aware of how difficult that practice is, and then we have to really work at that. So it's a challenge, and as we all know, sometimes we have something like that stuck in us for a long time. Sometimes something like that sticks in us for generations, literally, you know, for many generations. It happens, yes, it happens, yes. Most nicely describes the question of addiction, yeah. Yes, she's saying that, she's referring to the fact in the ceremony that we cut the food into teeny little morsels, and she's saying that this sounds like, she makes a connection between that

[58:46]

and working with addiction, which sounds a lot like hungry ghosts, you know, an addict, sounds, a hungry ghost sounds like an addict of some sort. And she's saying that in working with addiction, you sometimes, what happens is you look beyond the addiction to what you really want, and you see why the addiction is not satisfying your real desire, your real need. Yeah, so I think so. Is that fair? Yeah, thank you. Let's see, you had a question before, you still, okay, yes. Well, I guess I can't think of anything I can say beyond what I said in the talk, I kind of, that was about it. The fact that, and I'll repeat a little bit, maybe as I repeat it something new will come out, but usually we're running around, right, and our mind is,

[59:53]

we're not, our mind is not subtle enough to see what's actually going on with us. And you learn this from meditation practice. Meditation practice, the texts of meditation are always talking about coarse mind and subtle mind. And when you slow the mind down and you stay with your breath, and you, you know, don't run around in circles, the mind actually becomes more subtle, and things come into view that weren't possible to see before. Because, I mean, we all know the state of mind in meditation is different from the state of mind of everyday life quite often, especially when you're really concentrated. So in such a more subtle state of mind, desire appears with more detail than it does the rest of the time, because our relation to desire is so reflexive. We immediately, you know, want to satisfy desire. So just as something as simple as you're sitting on a cushion and you have an itch, and you don't scratch, because you're not

[60:57]

moving. Your commitment is not to move. So you're sitting there, and then you get to study the desire to scratch and understand it in a different way. Well, usually during the rest of the day, we're not even thinking about, should I scratch or not? We don't even think, let's see now, should I scratch? What would be the advantages of scratching and the disadvantages of scratching? We don't think like that. We scratch, you know, and it's like that with every one of our desires, more or less, unless it's a complicated desire, like buy a house, that takes some strategy. But basically, you know, that's what happens. So in meditation, for example, quite often it happens that you don't scratch, and the itch goes away. What do you know? The itch went away. I didn't scratch. It went away. It went away because I stayed present, I stayed with my breath, and the desire to scratch came up, and it went away. Look at that. I never saw that before. That's amazing. Well, that's exactly what I'm saying, that in that special situation, you can study desire,

[61:58]

and you can see that, wow, desire is like that. It comes and it goes. It takes care of itself. I didn't scratch, and I'm not itchy anymore. Or I'm not itchy. I didn't itch, and I'm not scratchy anymore. No, I didn't scratch, and I'm not itchy anymore. Look at that. That's amazing. And the truth is that there might be a whole lot like that in our lives, that, well, I didn't, I was mad at her, and I didn't, you know, chew her out and punch her in the nose like I felt like doing. And I worked with it, and now I'm not mad anymore. Look at that. Wow. It's amazing. So that's what I was meaning, that desire is like a traveler moving from inn to inn. Desire comes and goes, stays for a while, and falls away. And sometimes, as you brought up, we may say, understanding the nature of desire, I feel that it would be good to act on this desire

[63:05]

now, because I understand what is motivating me here. It's a wholesome motivation and a positive motivation, and I'm going to act on this desire. But I know that desire is impermanent, so if I'm thwarted in my acting on that desire, I won't freak out or go crazy or start a major war. But I will, because I understand why I'm doing this. I will go forward with this desire the best I can and adjust as I walk down that path. So that's a little different from this reflexive, you know, we're so used to and so trained to feel like the most important thing is that I'm okay and I get what I need. And so if I think I want this, I should go for it. And if anything gets in the way, I'm upset, depressed, fighting somebody, and so on. And that's a gross version of what we go through, but something like that does happen, I think. So can we find another way? Can we be more subtle and more inclusive about what we desire and what we don't desire? I mean, addiction is a great

[64:12]

example. I mean, somebody thinks that they really want heroin or something. Well, maybe it's not heroin that they want. Maybe heroin is a temporary relief. But what they really want, is some kind of deep, deep, deep human satisfaction, sense of belonging, sense of love, and so on. That's what they really want, and they haven't been able to find any way to even touch that desire or even experience the desire for that. And they think that they want heroin or something. So if they could study that desire and not go for the heroin every time, maybe they would come into touch with these deeper desires. And as I understand the programs that are so successful of recovery, that's what they teach. As I understand it, they tell you, first of all, stop grabbing your desire every minute and realize that you are in the grip of this desire, and seek help so that you don't have to constantly go back to it. And then, step by step by step, look behind until you see the real nature of that desire. And the 11th step in the 12-step program is to come to a religious

[65:16]

understanding of why you got that way in the first place, and why we all are seeking quite often to satisfy our desires inappropriately. Because our deep human longing for wholeness, we've never turned to. And we thought that we could fix it up with substances, or neurotic notions of relationship, or possessions, or whatever. We thought we could fill that hole inside of us, but it didn't work. That desire, purified and understood, is wholeness itself. In other words, that's the desire that you walk down that path, and that it's no longer a desire, it's just life. So a lot of times we take up spiritual practice with that same energy of desire.

[66:19]

So we can desire heroin, we can desire lots of money, we can desire lots of sex, or we can desire enlightenment with the same spirit. And people often will do that, will come to spiritual practice with that sort of desire. But if you actually keep with the practice, the fire of the practice purifies that desire, and then all of a sudden there's no desire, there's just life itself, and total acceptance and forgiveness moment after moment. So it doesn't feel like desire anymore. It's true. Yes, by other people's desire, what about that? It can be neurotic, he's saying. Yeah, I think that the real wish to benefit others, if it's really true, is not neurotic, because you want to benefit others for what they really need. But you're right,

[67:21]

if you have a neurotic need to satisfy someone else, usually what that actually is, is a fear that they'll be unhappy. So it's fear. I'm afraid that if I don't make you happy, you might be mad at me, and then I'll be in the soup. Or I'm afraid that if I don't do something to make you happy, you'll leave me. Or I'm afraid if I don't do something to make you happy, I won't feel like a good person. So to me, when there's a neurotic need to satisfy someone else's desire, it actually isn't a truly altruistic feeling. It's actually a masked feeling of self-centeredness, it seems to me. If we really want to benefit others, we're willing for other people not to like us, to leave us, to be unhappy with us, and so on, because we really want to benefit them. We're not trying to make ourselves feel good, we actually are concerned about their benefit. In which case, if being concerned about their benefit means that they're going to get mad at us or whatever,

[68:23]

we're willing to undergo that for their benefit. So it's a different story, because certainly one of the cardinal points of Mahayana Buddhism and of our school is the wholesome spirit of benefiting others. And it is possible, I believe, to have that spirit without it being neurotic. Although one has to discriminate, it's easy to fool oneself too. And I always feel like that's an idea we're working toward, and we have to see the difference between that and neurotic needs to satisfy others. But I think it is possible, I believe that it is possible to have a truly altruistic desire, in fact, a spirit, I mean, a truly altruistic spirit. In fact, that spirit is pretty much indistinguishable from the spirit of benefiting oneself, because when you really want to benefit others and you see others as yourself, then there's not much difference. That is the spirit, that is one's

[69:26]

motivation and one's spirit in living is, yeah, we want to be beneficial here. And this is one to be beneficial to, and that's one to be beneficial to, and that's one, and it's all the same. We be beneficial in whatever way that we can, whatever we see in front of us, whatever is appropriate. So if one's self is wounded, then you should have a kind spirit, let me benefit myself as another, let me benefit another as myself, so like that. Yes, a lot of what I'm saying sounds a lot like psychoanalysis, and is this because I'm a psychoanalyst, or there's a lot of, or what, or psycho? Psychotherapist, yeah, psychotherapist. Or is it because they are similar and so on? I am not now, nor have I ever been, a psychotherapist. However, it is impossible to live in the Bay Area without being at least an

[70:30]

amateur psychotherapist. So I'm probably an amateur psychotherapist, and of course, every other person that I know is a psychotherapist. But I always say that Buddha was the first and the greatest psychologist, it seems to me, because Buddha was concerned with how the mind works, and what kinds of patterns in our activity and in our working with our minds will lead to suffering and confusion and messes, and what kinds of behavior and understanding will lead to peacefulness. And so this was his whole approach. And so in that sense, I'm a student of Buddhist psychology, and you would only imagine that if a great sage like the Buddha were studying the human mind, and if other great thinkers like Freud and Jung and a million of other people, Winnicott or all these people who followed them,

[71:34]

were also thinking carefully about the human mind, it would not be that surprising that there would be many similarities, right? So I think that there are a lot of similarities. And sometimes you see different workshops and conferences and so on discussing the similarities and differences, and there have been many books written, quite good books and popular books, none of which I've read, I'm sorry to say. I mean, I don't know why, but I just haven't read them, comparing them. And there's certainly been a lot of mutual influence, certainly in the West, where many Buddhist teachers trying to transmit Asian traditions in Western settings have had spectacular failures, and they've thought, well now why did this happen? And then they look at psychology and they say, oh that's interesting, I see now, you know, I didn't understand the psychology of my own culture, and so that reforms Buddhism. And the other way around, there are a lot of psychologists who are Buddhist practitioners and who are doing their psychotherapy practice

[72:36]

with some inside gain from their Buddhist practice, so they sort of meet somewhere in the middle. And I think certainly in the Bay Area this is more the case than a lot of other places, where there might be a bigger difference between the two, but here sometimes you don't know the difference actually, except the main difference being in the practice itself. The practice of Buddhism, at least as we do it here, involves silent seated meditation, chanting and ritual. The practice in psychotherapy mostly involves interaction and discussion, so that's quite a difference. But we found here, and I think some therapists have reported to me, the benefit of combining those practices, that somebody who's in a discussion practice benefits from silent sitting, helps the process of discussion, and someone who's in a practice of silent sitting, who gets blocked in one way or another by their conflicting desires and can't seem to go through that by virtue of their sitting practice, can engage in this other practice of discussion

[73:41]

and maybe free up their sitting practice. So there's a lot of that kind of cross-pollination going on. Yeah, this is so hard, you know. And again, I brought this up in my talk. I feel that ultimately we have to take responsibility for what's in our mind. If I have hatred in my mind, this is a poison in my mind, and I'm the one who's most hurt by that hatred. If I hate you and I'm spending 24 hours a day with my hatred of you, you're going about your business, it doesn't affect you in the least. Maybe you see me and it's unpleasant, but then you go away and you go along and you're fine. Meantime, I'm being eaten alive by my hatred. So that's my mind and it's my responsibility that I have that mind. And even though you did something to me that was very, very wrong and caused that hatred to arise in me, caused the seed of past karma to be awakened by that hatred, and I'm blaming you. And so as long as I'm blaming

[74:45]

you, as long as I'm saying that you're responsible for my mind, I can't begin to work on that mind. And this is so hard, because we feel to accept that kind of responsibility without getting caught by this is my hatred, I'm responsible for it, and then we say, and I'm a bad person, and I'm not worthwhile, and I've always been a failure, and I've always been terrible, and I can't do anything, and blah, blah, blah. Not to do all that, but just to say, as a human being, right now, regardless of my condition, I have the possibility of clarifying my life. And the first step in doing that is to take responsibility for my mind and what arises in my mind and to work with it. That's the first step. You have to do that, even if I say, even if it's somebody else's fault, apparently. And that's what breaks our heart, because we cherish the idea that we're good and right, and that it's somebody else's fault that we have hatred, and somebody else's fault that we have confusion, somebody else's fault, it's our parents' fault. If only they hadn't done this stuff to us

[75:49]

and raised us in this way, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. It's our society's problem. If only the blah, blah, the so-and-so were elected president, then we wouldn't. All of that's true, you know, our parents do mess us up, they really do, and the government sucks, you know, it really does. And it's terrible, it's all true, and we should, you know, take steps to change all of that, you know, in our spare time. But if we don't accept responsibility for this mind right now, nothing will happen in our lives. And that's the hard part, because we have to give up all these illusions, you know, about ourself, and really look and see, and not only about ourself, but about human life. Because our big illusion is, if only things were just so, life would be great. If only I could get the arrangements, you know, arranged in the right way, everything would be fine, because life is basically wonderful. And it's just that I'm messed up, because my parents did this, and the government... So that's our big illusion, you know, and it's terrible to realize life is not a, you know, bowl of cherries, it's a mess. Life is fundamentally a wreck and a mess,

[76:55]

and impossible. This is the big thing we have to admit. Right here, right now, it's a mess. Greed, hate, and delusion are running rampant in me, and everywhere around me, and it's totally overwhelming. It is so overwhelming, I can't even see it. That's where we have to... I mean, who wants to admit that? And that's heartbreaking, it's heartbreaking, because we were all brought up to think that everything's wonderful, and yes, yes, you know, you're going to have a house in the suburbs, and this and that, it's going to be great, America's the best country, and the trees are beautiful, and everything's great, you know. And it's a shock to realize that that's not how it is. And this is the biggest, you know, illusion of all. And we have to admit, it's not like that. It really isn't. It's, you know, life is difficult and full of suffering. Totally. Totally. Then, admitting that and taking responsibility for that, as the Buddha taught,

[77:59]

you can end suffering. And there can be happiness, but it starts with taking responsibility and admitting the real situation. As long as we are disappointed because our illusions haven't worked out, we will continue to suffer. So that's why I say it's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. We have to go through the death of our illusions in order to actually turn our life around. Maybe one follow-up question. In that brokenhearted state, you're tender and open. And that's where the reality of the support of the Dharma, and the teachings, and Dharma friends, and all that comes in. Because none of us do this alone. You know, we have the support of thousands of years of people, you know, 2,500 years unbroken tradition of people trying to work with this stuff. And we have, in the present time, the many people who are themselves struggling with it and are supportive of us. And so in that time, you know, we seek that kind of help and it gives us a lot of solace, and we start from there. Yeah. Further of Qin, which one is the

[79:07]

real Qin, and saying that maybe the two Qin's that appear in the story, neither one of them is the real Qin, or maybe both of them are. But anyway, one is a projection of the husband and the other one is a projection of the father, which is an interesting sort of modern-day interpretation of that. And I think that in the discussion, you know, as I said, it's brought up as a koan. I know the story through the koan. It's an independent Chinese folk story that was brought into Zen by being included in this koan. And the point that's made about the story in the koan is the point that I was discussing. However, I think you can certainly interpret it that way and think about it in other ways, and I hadn't thought about that, but that would be an interesting story, an interesting interpretation. And certainly it's true, for sure, that everyone has a projection about who we are, you know, that's true, and we have to live with that. People think of you, I mean, I encounter this all the time. People think that

[80:13]

I'm somebody, you know, and everybody has a different person who they're carrying around thinking, it's me, and it's the same is true of all of you. And we have to understand that this is true, and that this is how the human mind works, and we have to not be caught by those projections, right? We have to be aware of them, but be able to look at our own true heart and find out which one is the real Chin, because if we feel that we have to live up to others' projections of us, and I mean there's such a thing as social roles and all that, well that's fair enough, but if we allow that to be a substitute for our real heart, and we don't find our real heart, then this is terrible, right? So you have to work with that. So that's a wonderful view of the story, I like that, thank you. Yeah, somebody in the back, she doesn't like that projection. People have images of you, and yeah, I know, and this is, we could easily get caught here, because

[81:13]

what we would like, actually I think most of us would like that people have images of us, but that we could maybe control what those images were, like, and everybody thought of us as being handsome and beautiful and totally intelligent and very, very nice and all these things, you know, this would be really good. But of course, it isn't like that, and the truth is that if that were the case, I don't know if we would feel any better, actually, because there are people, like famous people, or somebody, you know, that, of course famous people get a lot of positive and negative projection, but there are probably some people, like the Dalai Lama or something, you know, maybe everybody maybe thinks the Dalai Lama is wonderful, but maybe he finds it a drag that everybody thinks that, maybe he thinks, where's the room for me in this, you know? Who knows? So I think that we have to, you know, allow people to have their projections. It's pretty normal, right? I mean, that's the way the mind works. But we ourselves can realize

[82:18]

that when we're seeing another person, we're seeing ourselves, you know, we're seeing our own idea of that person. I often say, we have no idea who anybody is. We have no idea. And I find, I've been married for 20 years, and I know that I have no idea who my wife is, really. I mean, I know her in a lot of ways, but when it really comes down to who she actually is, you know, I stand in awe of the unknown, because I really don't know what deeply affects her and motivates her, and I have to respect that, and it's true for everybody. And so I think we ourselves can at least understand that, and yet I have projections about my wife, who she is, right? But I have to remind myself that the projections are only projections, and that's true of everybody that I know in my whole life. So we can do that with our own projections, and we can have patience with other people's projections onto us, because they have those projections based on their karma, right? Based on what's in their life, they're going to decide that we are such and so. And like

[83:23]

I sometimes get the projection, somebody that I hardly met will think that I'm somebody that they knew before, you know? Like their father, maybe, that they hate. So I have to be patient with that, you know? I mean, if I get angry with them, that's terrible. I have to really be patient with that projection, and I think that's what we have to do with everybody. We have to understand that people will have projections, and the projections will be very naturally flowing from their own lives, and that's what we have to live with. So that's why it's a great relief, you know, to go back to the cushion, and to be with the present moment, and the reality of just this person, you know? We don't know who. And to come back to that over and over again, and recognize that that's the bottom line. Very comforting, very important for us, I think. Yes? So he's talking about negative and positive projections,

[84:51]

and how do you work with that, and how do you handle that? And are they different? We like the positive ones, and we don't like the negative ones, but are they really any different? Maybe I can answer that by telling a story that Reb always tells, one of his favorite Zen stories. In fact, he tells this as the story that brought him to study Zen in the first place. Maybe you've heard it from him or from someone else before. It's a story of Hakuin Zenji, who lived in the 18th century in Japan, and was a village priest. And a young girl got pregnant in the village. You know this story? Maybe you know. Young girl got pregnant in the village, and parents said, who's responsible for this? And she said, it was that nasty old, filthy old priest on the hill. Hakuin did this. And when the baby was born, the parents, who by now were really upset, took the baby up to the temple, knocked on the door, and said, here. Here's what you've done to our family. We're in disgrace. Gave him the baby.

[85:56]

And he said, oh, is that so? Is that so? Took the baby, and raised the baby. Got a wet nurse, and took care of the baby. And the baby was, you know, a couple years, two, three years around the temple. And in the meantime, the daughter confessed it wasn't him. It was my boyfriend, so and so, and I just didn't want to say it was him. And I knew how upset he would be, and his family would be if I told. So I blamed it on Hakuin. And the parents, of course, were just horrified. My God, they had done this to this kindly, wonderful priest. They had done this to him, and he didn't even complain. So they went rushing up to him and knocked on his door. They said, we're so mortified. How could we have done this? How could we have mistrusted you? You're such a wonderful priest. Look what you've done. You've taken the child. You're just so great. He said, oh, is that so? So this is a great model, I think. To believe the positive projections is just as bad as to

[87:02]

believe the negative ones. And we are apt to believe both. Even though we like the positive ones and don't like the negative ones, it doesn't mean that we're not easily convinced by both of them. But neither one of them touch our true self. And so when that family came to Hakuin and handed him the baby and shook their finger at him, I think what Hakuin saw was not, he wasn't feeling their fury or wrath against him. He was seeing their suffering. He saw that they were suffering. That was important. And he was sympathetic to their suffering. When somebody is furious with you, they're suffering, right? They're in deep pain. And he saw that pain. And he was large enough to allow it to be and absorb it. And when they came back and they thought how wonderful he was, then he saw their joy and he saw their embarrassment.

[88:02]

And he was sympathetic to their joy and their embarrassment, but not caught by it either. So he was focusing on them and their experience, and that was who he was. In other words, his heart was big enough to incorporate. And really, how many of us really experience other people's mental states or joy or sorrow or happiness? We're too busy thinking about ourselves. But other people have experiences, and if we're just there for those experiences, however they are projecting on us, then we are open to them and we are always sympathetic and always trying to be helpful. And if we have to admit realistically that when somebody's furious with me, I'm upset, I may be upset along with sympathy for them. So there's a mixture. It's not all or nothing, right? We're either totally bamboozled by people's projections or we're beyond them. It's usually some mixture as we travel the path or some combination of those

[89:06]

things. The important thing is not to realize the ideal and be perfect. It's usually some

[89:10]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ