I hesitate to say this to you because it's just an idea but still I want to share it with you and that is the issue of delayed gratification and I was I read this article about study a study of delayed gratification and as I got an article I thought the bodhisattva path is kind of like you could say a really extreme example of delayed gratification not that there's no gratification because there's lots of gratification on the bodhisattva path lots of it but

[01:42]

there's some gratifications that are being delayed and so the article was about the one study they had I think when they put children in a room where they could by themselves they were old enough so that wouldn't be frightening and I think they put maybe one cookie or something in front of them and they told them that if they would leave the cookie alone for about five minutes or something ten minutes that they would get two cookies and some kids couldn't wait five minutes or anyway they didn't want to wait five minutes they just ate the cookie and other kids waited for five minutes and and then they got two cookies and maybe I guess they probably ate them for all I know I don't remember that part so they studied these children for years afterwards they had they

[02:43]

studied them you know until into adult into a well into adulthood and they found that the children who could delay the gratification generally speaking and they weren't more intelligent actually necessarily than the other ones I think that that was I think they factored that in that they had they were better able to like do their schoolwork and deal with life's difficulties and generally speaking they were much more successful and very much lower rate of like incarceration in prison for example than the children who couldn't wait for five minutes or whatever it was so that the one of the theories of this study is that if you're able to somehow delay gratification you're able to do other

[03:44]

things that are more important than delaying gratification the delaying gratification isn't the thing it's just that if you find a way to do that for the sake of perhaps greater gratification you can do aside from the gratification you aside from maybe getting two cookies you develop others you can you can develop other skills and again so that's part of that's a certain dimension of the bodhisattva path is like that if you can delay gratification of enlightenment and freedom from suffering for yourself you can develop skills that more you can do all skills more easily than if you yeah that's such an idea for you to consider if you go for enlightenment in this lifetime then

[04:44]

you only have to delay your gratification for about somewhere between 15 and 40 years or maybe 43 or 44 45 46 50 depends on the intensity of your practice but some people do and then if you've been practicing for a long time already and some you know before you hear the Dharma and it's like in the case you know you have actual Buddha there you might be able to get enlightenment in a month or two but you have to delay gratification for maybe like for 15 minutes or two weeks and so the first disciples of Buddha they they they were good already good at delaying gratification that's how they got to be good really good yogis you can't get to be a good yogi if you can't delay gratification you know when you first sit down you're not immediately gratified matter of fact you run into some difficulties as many of you noticed

[05:47]

when you sit there's lots of difficulties you don't immediately get gratification or maybe you do get some gratification but then you get some non gratification so we struggle over years with this issue and to me it looks like people who keep struggling with it they become more skillful as yogis so that's just something to consider working with this thing of delaying gratification in order to become a more skillful person at doing things which aren't you know which might lead to your gratification but that also would make it possible for you to help others so sometimes you know again as I mentioned a while ago the middle way is sometimes described as a middle way between self mortification or self-denial and self self gratification sensory gratification

[06:53]

it's between those two but doesn't say that you shouldn't have any sensory gratification or sensory pleasure and doesn't say you shouldn't have any self-denial it's to not be addicted to either one of them and the way you look and the way you find the way not to be addicted to either one of them is to postpone is to be able to postpone gratification of this thing which sometimes is good to do and also postpone gratification by using self denial as a way to get gratification don't be addicted to either find the middle way and some of my say well I'll do that I'll spend my whole life trying to find that middle way and I think that maybe in this life I could find the middle way and you know what pops in my mind is I have a book which says in this very life which describes the path of attaining liberation in this very

[08:00]

life but it's not the bodhisattva path it's not the path to Buddhahood it's the path in this life of practicing postponing self gratification or delaying gratification enough to develop the skills to attain enlightenment in this life the bodhisattva does it to a greater extent for a greater enlightenment that's one thing I want to say and the other thing I want to say which I promised was that I very much have been talking to you in the past about the relationship between living beings sentient beings and Buddhas I have proposed to you that living beings and Buddhas are not separate Buddhas are not

[09:09]

separate from us we have a relationship with Buddhas there's no Buddhas without us there's no living beings now without Buddhas and there's no Buddhas without living beings I propose that to you I still find that a very helpful meditation in this life I also have suggested that the the wish to attain enlightenment in this life or and to do it and do what is necessary to attain enlightenment in this life or the wish to become a Buddha I've suggested that these wishes arise out of the out of that relationship with Buddhas so I give you the example I saw examples of bodhisattvas and when I and in that relationship of seeing the

[10:10]

bodhisattvas I wished to be what I thought was a bodhisattva out of a relationship this stuff emerges still once that once the aspiration has arisen then the question is is the practice one of relationship with Buddhas or is it one of imitating Buddhas and in the range from totally relational or totally imitative the path of realizing enlightenment in this lifetime is more over in the side of imitating Buddhas not so much having a relationship with them but doing what they doing the practices which Buddhas have done the other side it also is some can be somewhat imitative but it's also about doing the Buddha's practices in order to develop a relationship with Buddha and that that range of imitative and relational can apply to the

[11:25]

realization of enlightenment in this lifetime is more over on the imitative side the bodhisattva path can be on the imitative side and the relational side it can be way over on the extreme relational side and some some instructions for bodhisattvas are almost all about relational side not almost not entirely so for example the great bodhisattva Samantabhadra has these 10 vows and many of the vows especially the first ones are about relating to Buddhas and then as so paying homage to Buddha making offerings to Buddhas praising Buddhas and then the next ones are not about Buddhas next ones are confessing your own shortcomings and that is a practice of imitation of

[12:29]

Buddhas actually Buddhas or bodhisattvas do that so you're imitating bodhisattvas then rejoicing in the merits of others which follows nicely from acknowledging your own shortcomings and the next two again are about relating to Buddhas one is to ask Buddhas not to split not to go away and the other one is to ask Buddhas to turn the wheel of Dharma so the out of the first seven five are about relating to Buddhas which the great bodhisattva Samantabhadra he does those vows and he does them very extensively he does them a lot that's just they're called the practices in vows his vows are practices his practices are vows he vows to do practices and he practices doing vows to practice so the four out of the first seven five are about an intense relationship with Buddha intensely related to Buddha then the next the next

[13:35]

one eight yeah number eight is oh yeah yeah number eight is I've got mixed up I think number eight is imitate all the practices of Buddhas so there again it's relational in the sense of you're looking to the Buddhas but you're imitating the Buddhas practices number nine is be of service to living beings and number ten is dedicate vow to dedicate the merit of this whole of the first nine to the welfare of all living beings so last ones maybe the last two are about relating to sentient beings and among the first eight in a sense six of them are about relating to Buddha but one of the six to relate to

[14:38]

Buddha is to imitate Buddha so that's one example of the bodhisattva path lots of relating to Buddha but in some bodhisattva instruction they say of course all disciples of Buddha go for refuge in Buddha in the early in the early tradition when people wanted to study the Buddha they said I want to go for refuge in you and Buddha would say fine and then sometimes when they met the Buddha and they didn't go for refuge in Buddha they just met the Buddha and listen to the Buddha they would wake up and then they would say I want to go for refuge in Buddha and Buddha would say come and they would go for refuge in Buddha but then they again they would it would be this I go for refuge in you with you and now I do your practice in some Mahayana scriptures in some instructions for bodhisattvas they say when a bodhisattva and also when a lay

[15:39]

bodhisattva or monastic but lay bodhisattvas and monastic bodhisattvas when they go for refuge in Buddha they should think I must realize the body of Buddha this is how the bodhisattvas go for refuge in Buddha not I just I take refuge in Buddha I must become Buddha I must become just like a Buddha in order to for example help all beings and this is how going for refuge that's different from I'm just going to go for refuge in Buddha and by going for refuge in Buddha it's all going to work out. Yes, yes Jackie. How do you not separate yourself from Buddha when you're doing that, when you're taking refuge?

[16:42]

Oh thanks for asking. So for example in the practice of the great bodhisattva Samantabhadra he says I start by paying homage and you pay homage with body speech and mind okay so with your body the traditional formal way of paying homage is to prostrate yourself and and then with your voice you say I take refuge in Buddha and with your mind you think I take refuge in Buddha now in our school we have a verse which we can do and this verse is a verse I learned in the Zen school but I think we find it also in books about Samantabhadra when we're bowing to the Buddha we say bowing and bowed to their nature no nature bowing person bowed to person not to plunge into this inexhaustible

[17:52]

ungraspable vow realize that reality so the bodhisattva is encouraged while bowing to the Buddha to realize that the Buddha is not an object or a subject and I don't remember this story correctly but I think it goes something like this there was a Zen master named Wang Bo and he was practicing I think was his teacher maybe but maybe he wasn't maybe I think he was the head monk rather than the master of the temple so he was in some temple and the tree fell yeah Norbert was concerned about this tree that might fall and it fell just now it

[18:56]

looks like and we are responsible so we can go out there and look and see hopefully there was no sentient beings under it you're gonna go look at it now thank you where was I oh Wang Bo he's in the monastery and there was a monk in the monastery who just happened to be the future Emperor of China who was hiding out partly he actually was interested in Buddhism but he was also hiding out from his brother who might want to kill him because he was a potential rival anyway he survived this dangerous situation and became the Emperor and while he was in the monastery he saw Wang Bo prostrating himself to the Buddha and he knew about bodhisattvas that bodhisattvas are trying to not you know not rely on anything he said well if you're not

[19:59]

trying to rely on the Buddha the Dharma and Sangha how come you're prostrating and I forgot how this story goes but then I think he slapped him Wang Bo slapped the future Emperor and Wang Bo said I don't rely on Buddha Dharma and Sangha by bowing to Buddha Dharma and Sangha and then he slapped him a couple more times for some reason and when he became Emperor he named Wang Bo he gave Wang Bo a national title rough action Zen master or crude action Zen master and then when he actually then when Wang Bo died somebody said you should give him a nicer name so he did so we we practice towards Buddha we pay reverence if we do if we do pay homage to Buddha we're

[21:02]

trying to do that without falling for the apparent separation we haven't realized Buddhahood yet but we're not separate from the complete realization of Buddhahood so we bow to Buddha one practice is to bow to Buddha and then address that apparent duality and let go of it but some people say I'm not I don't feel separate from Buddha but therefore I don't want to bow to Buddha I'm cool I don't need to bow to Buddha I mean no problem but to bow to Buddha and not get caught by it that's usually the way to go well and that usually involves bowing and getting caught for quite a while so you keep reverently serving the high spiritual principle and checking to see if there's any clinging in the process and there probably is but this is to bring your clinging out so you can

[22:08]

see it and become free of it and not just clinging in relationship to boyfriends and girlfriends or beautiful little grandchildren it should we should practice it there too person holding in person person being held person loving and person being loved their nature no nature my body his body not to plunge into the inexhaustible vow realize truth with my grand with my grand baby same with the babies and same with the Buddha's the Buddha's are doing that practice with us and we can do that practice with the Buddha's I won't say it's incorrect I would just say that there's something about us when

[23:14]

we're not enlightened there's something about our unenlightened or our non Buddha body body our non Buddha body body that we've got you notice that one yeah yeah so we've got a non Buddha body body that body is actually and this is a relational part that body is actually calling out to the Buddha's to teach us and then the Buddha's show us something and then that body has something in it that wants to practice like the Buddha's we have that nature but it's not really the Buddha it's the thing about us that wants to become Buddha it's the thing about a non Buddha that's yearning for Buddha and it can respond it can call Buddha's and when Buddha's respond it calls it in response back and forth it's

[24:17]

the part that leads us to want to be really wise and really kind and be kind and be free of our idea of kind too so we aren't hindered by our our concepts about kindness so that true kindness can be realized beyond the concept of kindness we have that in us is part of the proposal something about us wants to be morally good wants to be wants to bring peace and happiness to the world and that part of us is calling out for teaching but that's not really Buddhahood it's calling for Buddhahood it's it's something about our non Buddhahood that is calling for Buddhahood there's something about our nature even before we've perfectly realized our ethical possibilities that wants to realize our ethical possibilities sometimes they call that Buddha nature but I don't think

[25:20]

Buddha nature is the same as Buddha Buddha nature is the way we want to be Buddha that's more or less conscious in us there's something about us that wants to be Buddha or anyway wants to be enlightened and free and wants to help other people but we also have because this wish is in our ordinary body it's complicated so when well I kind of want to be Buddha but I'm not sure actually that may be too high you know so we're struggling with that to find out what to clarify that Buddha nature in us to see where it really wants to go and somebody told me that they think I'm really pushing the Bodhisattva path and I say I hear you if you think I am but I don't feel exactly like I'm pushing it I feel like I am kind of pushing you to ask yourself what you want to do and if you don't want to do the Bodhisattva path then you have what I pushed is that you looked and found out something and we can work with that anybody who doesn't

[26:25]

want to do the Bodhisattva path what path do you want to do I would like to help you find out the path you want to go because again studying the Buddha way is to study yourself and if you find out that yourself doesn't seem to want to practice the Buddha way if you study that you're on the Buddha way and if you study the self you you you might get to the point where you say okay I saved myself and I found out I would like to have enlightenment in this life okay study yourself and you can get enlightenment in this life if you want to study yourself can take you to enlightenment in this life but also study yourself can lead you to realize I'm not so concerned about enlightenment in this life if I get enlightenment in this life fine but I would like to have innumerable enlightenments on the way to Buddhahood I found that out about myself and I forgot myself and there was enlightenment but I still wanted to do

[27:28]

this Buddha thing so I'm not going to cling to that enlightenment and I and some of us will you know like like some of you write me letters saying would you please teach me and I I say okay I'll try to do that and some and some of us say to Buddha would you please teach me like we chatted this morning may all Buddhas and ancestors be compassionate to us and help us practice and Buddhas before they were Buddhas were just like us and those who were not and have not been enlightened will be enlightened we say that kind of stuff I'm not asking you to believe it I'm actually I'm not pushing you to believe it but I am kind of pushing you to ask yourself what what does that say what is that what are these words who am I what is this I think that goes with the Buddha way but

[28:30]

it also goes with other kinds of wisdom too lesser wisdoms thrive on that kind of questioning but also the Buddha way does too so there's a compatibility with the enlightenment in this life and in the enlightenment throughout many lives leading eventually to Buddha Bodhisattvas can be enlightened billions of times on their path to Buddhahood it's just that they don't stop at any enlightenment because they say I'm not going to stop until Buddhahood and then after that I'm not going to stop either so somebody said what about when it says in our ceremony will you continue this practice even after realizing the Buddha body and you say yes I will why why I continue after Buddhahood and the Buddha was actually asked that too I'll try to stop with that story for a second so the Buddha was asked by this this I guess he was a Brahman his name was

[29:35]

something like a Panasoli and he said do you go out into the forest into the wilderness to practice and the Buddha said yes I do and he said but isn't it kind of scary out there isn't it isn't it under lots of wild animals and poisonous plants and rough weather and falling eucalyptus trees he said yes and wasn't it frightening to you he said yes and are you like a teacher to many people yes and will they emulate you will they imitate you he says yes well isn't that irresponsible for you to do something which would put them in a state of fear he said well I don't know when I went out there I went out there and I love the forest now I love that frightening place because when I

[30:36]

used to go out there and I got frightened when I if I was walking and I got frightened I would just keep walking until I wasn't frightened anymore and if I was lying down and I got frightened I would just lie down until I wasn't afraid of the anymore and if I was standing I would just stand until I wasn't afraid anymore and if I was sitting I would sit until I wasn't afraid anymore in that way I realized the truth and now I'm not afraid out in the forest anymore I love being out there and then and I was in Janasoli Janasoli Janasoli said well maybe Janasoli didn't say maybe Buddha said now you might think since I still go out in the forest since I still do the practice even after I've realized freedom from fear through this practice in the wilderness you might you might think I'm not yet a Buddha I'm not yet understanding that I'm stuck in the practice but I'm not I'm free of the practice I don't have to do the practice anymore I'm a Buddha I don't

[31:38]

have to do the practice anymore but I kind of do have to do the practice for two reasons one I had to do the practice to show the next generation and two I had to do the practice because I love it so will you continue this practice even after realizing the Buddha body yes I will why will you because I love it and because I I have to show the next generation the practice which I don't have to do anymore but I do have to do it because I have to do it so the other people will see what it looks like for somebody who's been doing it for a while to do it in the world they see so I have to do it for that reason but not because I'm not a Buddha but because I care about other people learning this way and also I love it but I just love it and I've been loving it for quite a while and there was a time when I didn't love it when it was scary you know when I was afraid of the snakes biting me and the insects stinging me and I was afraid I was gonna fall through the hole into the

[32:42]

world into the pit of hell I had that stuff but then I practiced I studied myself and I became free of fear and I realized the middle way and I continue to practice even though I don't need to anymore for you and because I love it that's what the Buddha said supposedly Shakyamuni Buddha 2,500 years ago talked like that and he also made vows like the unenlightened I was enlightened the suffering I will I will give comfort and so on he made those vows and Bodhisattvas make vows like Buddha did because they want to imitate Buddha and become Buddha and some other people just imitate Buddha but and that works too but they don't necessarily take on the same vows

[33:43]

that Buddha did they just imitate the practice of for example when you're walking in a storm and you feel fear just keep walking until the fear goes away if you're sitting in the storm just keep sitting in the storm till the fear goes away and so on and you will find that it's wonderful to be in the storm okay yes Charlie after this morning's discussion I had a question that was bugging me and now after your story about the cookies it's bugging me even more but now it feels a little clearer that to wait for the people to bring me the second cookie sort of implies, it implies faith that they're not going to give me a second cookie that it's going to happen, that something that you've heard about will happen.

[34:46]

And to wait for... Yeah, it could imply faith. ...happen to Bodhisattva seems really to imply this faith that there's such a thing as rebirth, that there are other lives besides this life. And I struggle with that because I really don't believe that. And I have a lot of trouble because I don't accept that premise. But then I think about the cookies, and I'm like, okay, maybe I don't believe them that they're going to bring me a second cookie, but some people I trust tell me they will. And it's only 10 minutes I have to wait, not several lifetimes, so maybe I will take a risk on that. And I find the ability to have faith, to at least entertain faith that, okay, well, let's try it. Maybe a second cookie will come if I wait 10 minutes. And... We don't have much time. Huh? We don't have much time because it's 5.30 now. I just want to say quickly, okay, if you were told by your teacher that if you didn't eat the first cookie, you'd be brought two later, okay, and then you waited there, and then

[35:51]

the people, when they're going to bring you two cookies, on their way, they tripped and fell and dropped the cookies, and the plate that it was on, which is glass, broke. So the cookies had all the glass fragments, and they come in and say to you, we're sorry, we can't give you the cookies. And you say, but you said you'd give me two if I didn't eat that one. They say, well, there's still one there, you can have that one. But even though you feel like you don't trust those people anymore because they didn't give you two cookies, you still developed. The Buddhahood that you're waiting for, this billion cookies that you're waiting for, for passing up on a billion cookies, may never come. I've heard that it will. What? I've heard that it will. You've heard that it will, and you maybe trust somebody. I trust that guy, and he told me they're going to come, and I trust him. And then it didn't come, and I realized, he tricked me. But all the while I was doing this practice, and this is pretty good.

[36:57]

I told you this story. I went to Zen Center, because I wanted to practice with a group of people, because I thought they would help me practice meditation. I thought meditation would help me be like those Zen Bodhisattvas, which I wanted to be like. And I went there, and there were people, and they were sitting, and sure enough, because they were sitting, I could go sit too. Every morning. Two periods before work, I could do it. Whereas in Minnesota, by myself, I couldn't sit two periods before work. Because nobody was sitting. So with the help of them, I went to get that, and people helped me. I didn't go to San Francisco to help the people in San Francisco to sit. I went to have the people in San Francisco help me sit, and they did. And I said, thank you. But I also went to have a teacher, because when I was sitting in Minnesota, I had questions about stuff that was happening, while I was sitting. And I thought, it would be nice to have a teacher to say, is this good?

[38:01]

Is this a problem? Are these visions of Buddhahood and so on that are happening, and all these great enlightenments, are they a problem? Am I crazy, or am I enlightening? I'd just like somebody to talk to about it. So then I went to see this teacher. And when I saw him, I kind of forgot about all these questions. And so I went to one of his talks, and one of the first talks I gave, he said, I'm not enlightened. And I thought, oh, too bad. Now he didn't promise me, but my friends promised me that when I got there, there would be an enlightened Zen master there. I didn't really trust those people, though. They were like me, let's put it that way. But they told me that he was a great master, so I went there. And there he was, and I thought, okay. And then he said, I'm not enlightened. So I was a little disappointed. But I thought, he's not enlightened, but he's still the best I've ever seen.

[39:06]

So I'm going to stay another week or two. And then a few weeks later, he said, I am Buddha. And I thought, okay. But, you know, when he said that, he didn't mean that he was a Buddha. He just said, I'm Buddha. Actually, you can all say I'm Buddha, and also understand that you have not realized the Buddha body. Suzuki Gersho also said, when he was talking about the Lotus Sutra, he says, well, the person in this book is kind of an unusual person. So, you are welcome to have these problems. And I might actually ask you if you trust me, and you might say, well, not too much. And then I might keep asking you. And when you say, I really trust you a lot, I might say, rebirth is true. And then you can say, okay, I'm going to believe it. We can play this game about rebirth as long as I'm around.

[40:13]

About do you believe it or don't you believe it, what problems you have with it. The thing that applies to rebirth, the teachings that are applied to rebirth, also apply to birth, and also applies to death. We have birth, death, and rebirth. The character of birth, and the character of death, and the character of rebirth, they all have three characteristics. Apply these teachings about the character of phenomena to birth, and you won't have to worry about rebirth anymore. And if you don't worry about rebirth anymore, then you won't worry about rebirth anymore. You don't have to believe in birth to be here. Do you? You don't have to believe in birth to practice. You've got suffering. The character of suffering is the same as the character of birth, rebirth, and death. So we can practice, if you practice these teachings about the nature of phenomena applied to rebirth,

[41:17]

you will become free of your problems about rebirth. Once you're free of your problems of rebirth, that will make it easier, probably, for you to consider whether you want to be a Buddha. You can understand the nature of birth, death, and rebirth, long before Buddhahood. So in this life, you have a good chance of understanding what rebirth is. Okay? Once you understand it, then you may say, Now that I understand it, I see it's not a problem for me to commit to a path that has no beginning or end. So, a little bit of enlightenment in this life may help us actually be able to say, Oh, I'm up for a path that is really long. I really want to do it. And the implication of rebirth is not a problem for me anymore, because I understand what rebirth is. Rebirth is this thing, which is not what I thought it was, but it has a characteristic of what I think it is,

[42:22]

but it has another characteristic, which supports what I think it is, which is totally untouched by what I think of it as, and it has this purified characteristic, which is free of what I thought it was. Birth, death, and rebirth are all free of existence and non-existence. When we understand that none of these things, birth, death, and rebirth, will not bother us anymore, and then we can make all kinds of commitments, which are unhindered by this time and space. Okay? Alright, yeah. Do you have a quick question? Yes, quick question. And my question is, this morning when you mentioned about the letters that you were receiving, and you were kind of thinking whether I'm worthy of all that. I wonder if I am, yeah. Yeah, and that makes me wonder why you wonder that, when you're giving so much as the truth, when you're giving everything, why do you wonder the receiving part?

[43:23]

I feel like I've been given so much, I wonder, am I giving back as much? I'm given so much, I can't quite see that I'm giving back as much as I'm receiving. I see so much, like I get 50 letters, can I give back 50 letters? I can't, unless I return the letters. I wonder if... I used to feel this way. I feel you have already given it. You feel that way, but I wonder if that's true. I understand you feel that way, that's why you sent me the letter. You say, oh you're so generous, please continue. But I wonder if I'm worthy of you saying that I'm generous. Just like I used to wonder, why do I get to spend time with Suzuki Roshi? None of you got a chance, did you? How come I got a chance? I'm no better than you, I'm really not. How did you get so lucky to be with me?

[44:26]

Don't you feel like that sometimes? I'm really lucky to be with somebody who got to be with him. I shouldn't say lucky, but I wonder how... I look at my friends, you know. It seems to me they're just as kind or intelligent or sincere as I was, or more so. But some of them didn't get to meet Suzuki Roshi. I don't understand why I had this great chance. I didn't get it, I don't understand. But still I'm so grateful. Okay, so that not understanding, because I always have trouble... Not understanding is the characteristic of somebody like me who is not a Buddha. When I'm a Buddha, I'll understand. Oh, now I see why. I was sent there because I needed special attention. My friends didn't need to go because they didn't need his help. But I was so bad, I needed a really good teacher. Maybe I'll understand that. But right now I don't know why I was so fortunate

[45:30]

to live at a time when he was there, and I went there, and he didn't say, go away. He said, yeah, you can be here. Just like I told somebody the other night, you know, when he was dying, I said, when he wasn't, you know, I wasn't giving him, he wasn't, he couldn't go to the zendo anymore, couldn't go to meals anymore, didn't give doksan, wasn't giving lectures. He was basically just up in his room, eating and so on, and getting treatments. I said, could I just sit in the room when you're getting your treatments? And he said, okay, how did I get so fortunate to be able to watch this guy in his last day? I got to sit there and watch him receive his treatments, and then the shiatsu person, the moksa bhajan person got sick, and Suzuki Rishi said to me, he said, you've been watching, you can do it. How did I get that good fortune to be able to be there with him in that way?

[46:33]

I don't understand. Yeah, but that not understanding, is it called unworthy? Because I hear people... I'm not saying I'm unworthy. I don't even know if I'm unworthy. I don't know if I'm worthy or unworthy. I wonder. I'm wondering. Can I offer you an answer? You sure can. Join the group of offering me answers. Yeah, go ahead. When you came to Zen Center, it was apparent, I think, to Suzuki Rishi that you were practicing in an incredibly detailed and sincere way. And there are early videos of you, or films of you, in which it's pretty clear. And so he allowed you, in fact, it was helpful, he thought, perhaps, to him and to you, to have you in that position. I sometimes feel as though we benefit from the fact that your psychology,

[47:36]

when you got to Zen Center, was... I hope this doesn't sound like ersatz psychology, on my part, or disrespectful, but that you had enough deprivation and suffering in your early life so that you were going to be very, very, very careful and sincere in your practice. And so the rest of your time in the Zen Master, we benefited from that extreme kind of detail in your practice. So I don't know whether it's good for us or not, but I sometimes wish that we could we could, together, do something that would leave you with the feeling that of course you're always going to practice in such an impeccable way, but that we could completely fill up that part of you

[48:41]

that has to wonder in your psychology, that still has to wonder whether you're worthy. Maybe it's a mothering kind of thing. I don't know. Enough from me. Thank you. That's what happens when you don't give me dogasan. Now I know. Maybe I'll continue not to do it then. So you can tell such excellent stories. So thank you for all your practice this year. You have 15 more days. I guess 16. And I pray that you continue and Happy New Year.

[49:32]

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