Okay, let's go back to what Dagmar said and the questions about the first Balkan holiday. I'm interested in what you said about Why do we, so to speak, live 40% of our lives locked in one room? What does that mean? This number remains in the head, in the book. And I lived in... Maybe I can say it better in English. Yeah. I was interested in what Tara and was saying, just thinking a bit about the future of our Dhamma Sangha.

[01:02]

And obviously, you've been thinking about it yourself. And we hope that we'll be able to enjoy your ripening wisdom for a long, long time to come. But why do you say that you think we have only 40% chance as a Jerusalem and Europe of surviving? Johanneshof. Johanneshof as an institution doesn't have much chance to survive, I think. But that doesn't discourage me, it just makes me work harder. And why I think Johanneshof has, as I explained before lunch, my feeling that there's a sort of basic contradiction between city practice and monastic practice, to keep it simple.

[02:08]

Although it's very clear to me that our Siddhi and lay practice has matured through Yohannesov, even for those who don't go to Yohannesov. Although it is clear to me that our city practice has developed through the Johanneshof and has matured through it, even for those of us who do not come to the Johanneshof. Is this development in Europe different from the experience in America, for instance? Are we developing in a different way? Yes. Well, that remains to be seen. My own experience of the persons I practice with is so defined by the practice that I don't find much difference between the Americans and the Europeans who practice.

[03:52]

that I don't find a big difference between the Americans and the Europeans who practice. It would be too complicated to discuss it, but I do think that Crestone conceptually has a better chance to survive than Johannesburg. Because it's more clearly a monastery. And because it's not dependent on a lay Sangha.

[05:05]

But that's just the difference within the Dharma Sangha. I mean, the most interesting experiment is what we're doing here in Europe. Yeah. David? Oh, yeah, I wanted to say two things. One thing, just a little aside, you were talking, you said something about like when we were children, some indication of where our lives were headed. My grandmother used to say to me, my German grandmother used to say to me, You'll end up in Germany one day. Yeah, my German-American grandmother used to say, Now, you work hard and study hard and save your money, and when you grow up, I want you to make your family proud of you. And I always said to her, Granny, when I grow up, I'm going to be a cabbage.

[06:07]

I don't know why. Okay. Okay. Yes, thank you. Well, I was the closest. I think I knew it was going somewhere. Well, you're good at garbage. Yeah. So, all right. The other thing... You're talking about, when you were talking this morning about, you know, Buddha mind and usual mind, whatever, the city and the country. This morning, the man in the hotel showed me the nice walk I should take in the park, right? I walked out to where I was, and I had no interest in going to the park.

[07:38]

I wanted to go where the buildings and people were. And I walked straight here. I didn't know what this was. And I looked at the name of the place, and I wondered... You know, is this some sort of neat place, like for Sufis or something? It's the only place I looked at. But I thought about, when I was walking, a Portuguese poet. Pessoa. Yeah, and the way he would see from the train all the houses and think of all the people, and it was all this elaborate interdependence of people. And I felt like I was being attracted to the city because our practice depends on the relationships and communicating with people in society. Oops, sorry. You spoke this morning about the Buddha spirit and the ordinary spirit.

[08:41]

And what happened to me this morning is that the man in the hotel showed me this beautiful path through which I should come here through the park. I had described the way and when I left the hotel I noticed that I didn't have the slightest interest in going through the park. I wanted to be where the buildings are and where the people are and then I walked along the street and went directly here even though I didn't know this place at all and didn't know where I was and I looked at this place and noticed that this is the only place that I looked at more closely and asked myself if this was a meeting point for Thanks. And then you came back and had breakfast with us?

[09:55]

Right, and then we came here. And I didn't recognize it until we walked out. Okay, thanks. Yes. Yes. Yes, when Roshi turned the light on and off, I thought, yes, now it's a bit bright, the color, that's good. Actually, it seemed to be like that when he said, it's not that great. I don't know, one or all of them might have found it quite beautiful when it was so bright. But it was turned off again. Then I noticed that it is also a long metaphor. He can inspire us all and illuminate us, but the illumination will happen directly.

[10:58]

So when you switched the light on and off before, then there was this one moment when it was rather bright, and it seemed like maybe that was not such a good idea, and some people really liked it very bright, others did not like it so bright. And I thought that this is also a good metaphor for you can inspire us to a certain extent and you can illuminate us or something, but the enlightenment of each of us is going to be is going to be going to happen individually or is going to be within us or something. So the question I have about this is, if once enlightenment happens individually, then how can the teacher confirm it?

[12:13]

So how can the teacher confirm it? Is it something like that disciple and teacher are one at that very moment or something like that? And then I thought, I have something else to say. When I listened to you, Nicole, you told me about Chris Stone and the Johannesburg. Then I realized, when I heard about Chris Stone, your eyes lit up, as if the sun were a little brighter. The same sun. And then I thought, yes, if I'm really very busy at work, then the other one doesn't bother me so much. And that's why the question is, isn't it also the question between... Zen means Mahayana Buddhism and I say Mahayana. But isn't that the temptation? I don't care what happens to the others.

[13:17]

I want to do my work. I do it for St. Christopher. But then the other thing that I thought about is that when I spoke about how I experienced the difference between Crestone and Johannes-Sophie, felt as though when I spoke about Crestone, it seemed that my eyes were beaming more or something, as though the sun was a little brighter in Crestone or something like that. Well, it is. It's Colorado, it's, you know, in the desert. And I also know that when I feel very committed to my work, that then there's a feeling of just wanting to do this work. And can you repeat your last question? Yes, the last question is, Zen is the Mahayana, and it must be committed, and not neglected. So Zen is Marayana Buddhism and not Hinayana Buddhism.

[14:22]

It would be the temptation to work through the connection that I have created with this place, Crystal. Maybe the work would be less important in the world of suffering. And is there a temptation of doing one's work or doing my work in Crestone? Is there a temptation to then just do it in Crestone so that the lay world outside of Crestone is somehow less important? Do you want to respond to that or shall I? I'd be interested what you have to say about it. I'd like to be interested in what you have. Well, let's go back to how does a teacher recognize enlightenment in a practitioner?

[15:28]

That's really pretty easy. I mean, if two people fall in love, right? Yeah. Outsiders can sort of say, oh, he looks like he's in love again. Oh, gosh. So outsiders can recognize it. But then the two people who are in love can really recognize it. So it's easy. And then there's Hina love and Maha love. The lesser vehicle and the greater vehicle. Anyway. Okay, someone else. Yes.

[16:28]

Yes. My experience of city life is... I've been living in Berlin for four years now. And I find this to be so dependent on how vital I feel. If I feel that I've all my power or all my forces gathered, Then I feel as though I can make use of all these different stimuli and things that are going on there.

[17:40]

I feel like I can do something with it. And when I'm not so gathered and don't have my forces and my power so together, then all I want is to be in nature. Oh no, it's actually different. It's more like I seem to happen to find myself in nature. And I notice how much more dense what I call the green forest is.

[18:42]

And then that is nourishing. And this is the city and the mountains, even if it's not the mountains, up and down. And that is something like the city and the mountains, although these are not the mountains in and around Berlin. Thank you. Thank you. I felt this change between city and country because I was in the vicinity of Berlin in the boulevard. I have a small camper van there with friends on the farm. I also noticed so clearly the difference between city and countryside this summer because I was with my little, what is it, mobile home or camping, what is it called, camping?

[19:50]

Camper. Camper. I went to my friend's house and stayed there on their property. It's that camping mobile. Yeah, I understand, yeah. And when I'm there and when I go there, I always feel as though I leave all my obligations in Berlin behind. And yet this is close enough so that I can drive back home within an hour. And then when I'm home of course I also have plans for what I wanted to do for throughout the summer and most of that I also did.

[21:01]

But when I'm in Berlin, I always notice that I feel somewhat drawn away from myself through all these possibilities that I don't have when I'm out there. And I barely ever felt this distinction, this difference so clearly as I did this summer when I experienced this. I had a feeling that I was much more in my body, although I do a lot of body work even when I'm in Berlin, but I felt like being in the countryside made me feel my body in a different way. Okay.

[22:18]

Okay. You know, David is here, David Chadwick. I'm here partly because thanks to the Sangha who invited him here and supported his visit. But he's also supporting our Sangha and our lineage in a very basic way. which he spent much of the last 19 years developing and organizing and making happen the Suzuki Roshi archive. And part of what led to David coming here.

[23:37]

Yeah, although I'd been thinking about maybe he could come to visit and I wanted to call him and various things. At the last Winter Branches, part of the archives is a DVD, I guess you'd call it, of films of Sukhiroshi. And he'd given the hard disk and the DVD to Paul Rosenblum, Ryutin Roshi, To bring here. Give it to Johanneshof. Partly so that at least one complete copy of the archive is not on American soil in case something disastrous happened.

[24:44]

Or it seemed nice to have one in Europe, too. But now that it's digitalized and all that, or whatever it's called, there's going to be lots of copies, probably. Anyway, during the winter branches in May, I guess it was, somebody got this copy of the DVD out, and it was shown on a Thursday afternoon, Thursday, I guess so, Wednesday, anyway, the day off, the afternoon off day, And afterwards, I mean, people enjoyed seeing Suzuki Roshi in these short films and little excerpts and so forth.

[26:03]

And for me too, it's very touching to see him. Anyway, afterwards, there was some concern that maybe some film should be made of me. Sukhirashi died in 71, right? Yeah. So 30, yeah, I remember. I was there. 30, 40 years ago almost. And So maybe 30 or 40 years from now it might be amusing to see me saying something like, you know, whatever.

[27:15]

It's hard for me to imagine it. I have trouble looking in the mirror in the morning. I think of Lou Welch who said, looking in the mirror, I don't know who you are, but I'll shave you. But it's not just that I can't imagine it, it's just not something I think about. I don't think about it. So that's even, you know, that's why I don't imagine it partly, because I don't even think about it. I've gotten used to being tape-recorded, and I don't think about that either. Or at least I seem to not think about it.

[28:25]

But I actually in the background do think about it. Because for instance something you said this morning I thought I might respond, but I'd like to have the machine off when I say it. Now he's going to be very curious. Nothing important. There's an invisible editing process going on when I speak, now that I'm used to speaking to microphone, where I don't say certain things I don't think should be on the tape. And I suppose if I was being filmed or videoed or something like that. I would develop some sort of or evolve some sort of other sense of another editing process of what I spoke about.

[29:55]

For instance, I might become more aware that I wave my arms around and I talk, and I don't know that I do, but people say I do. I might just sit here like that. We hope you just keep it simple. Just do it. You know, that's good. People who are on TV are advised to use their hands. Oh, really? That's good. That was for you, Roland. Okay, well, my point, I'm not talking about this really. I have a point, sort of. So, although I can't imagine it, it seems that other people can. And I've always refused to let it happen.

[31:08]

Some recording people just came to me recently and wrote me a letter and came to me in person and said, we take pictures, we film the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh and we want to film you too. I said, oh, I'm glad you filmed them, but not me. And... My translator thinks that I ought to let it be done. But I think that's because she wants to be seen translating. No, I don't think that. I'm just teasing you.

[32:19]

I never thought about that aspect. See, she's just like, think about it. But people have given me, including one German filmmaker, has given me advice, you should do it. So it's actually an interesting conundrum for me. Because all my life I've avoided, as much as possible, but completely unsuccessfully, to having any public identity. Be patient with me. I'm trying to speak about this in the context of our topic. I mean, even in my high school yearbook, I didn't want my photograph to be.

[33:27]

And I have absolutely no desire to write articles, to be published. I love to write, but I have no interest in publishing. I don't know quite why I'm like this. I get requests quite a bit, will you write an article for this magazine or that or something? I just don't. I get forced into it sometimes and I'm so late they don't publish it anyway. So I, for some reason, have only been interested in a face-to-face relationship. Aus irgendeinem Grund habe ich mich bisher immer nur für eine Beziehung von Angesicht zu Angesicht interessiert.

[34:50]

And in this I fit in very well with the basic Zen tradition. Okay, but unfortunately, probably, I've never tried to develop identity outside of face-to-face situations. Aber leider und unfortunately and? I've never tried to develop a relationship outside of face-to-face situations, unfortunately. Probably unfortunate. In Japanese, the word famous... In Japanese, the word infamous, infamous and famous are the same. To be known by people who don't know you is weird. And I see all kinds of teenagers destroyed by trying to be known by people who don't know them.

[35:54]

Facebook, I don't know what all these things are. All right, my point is, maybe this is, I should do both and. Maybe I should experiment with not just developing a face-to-face relationship and identity, but also maybe developing some sort of public identity too. Or allow that to happen. And that somehow relates for me to the idea of city practice and mountain practice. Because city practice then would be if I let an identity happen outside and face-to-face, then people could listen to my tape, which they do, or listen to see some movie or video or something.

[37:25]

Yeah, I mean that both and is the tetralemma, the four propositions of Western and Asian logic. Yes, no, both and, neither nor. Neither nor. Neither nor. So maybe I should do both and. I've never even gotten this far in my thinking about it. I've been so opposed to it. This is the farthest I've ever got.

[38:28]

Now to see whether if we made one film, whether it had any quality of practice or teaching. And then I would have to see if we would make a film, a recording, if it would have any quality for the practice and for the teacher. Yes. Are you finished? Yes. My question is, Andreas and I sat in front of the laptop during the break, and I was just thinking of Doris a couple years ago. And she had sent an email and said, sorry, she couldn't come.

[39:49]

She just cancelled, just in the last moment. She was going to come this time? She was going to come. That would have been nice. Yeah, well, wouldn't she be the logical one? She's one of us. Now, she did this film over again. She even has lay organizations. Yeah. Well, why not one of us? One of us means what? One of us is one of us. And you're one of us. But I'm not a filmmaker. Well, I don't know. I'm not going to ask anybody to do this. Hasn't she asked you? No. No, no. She hasn't asked and I haven't. I haven't, it's not, hasn't, you know, no. Maybe she'll get her courage. Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice? I don't know. I don't know whether it would be or not. I've said I'm willing to have a camera once with one lecture and we'll see what it's like.

[40:57]

This is all your fault, David, because I didn't get this DVD. People have asked me what I thought about it and How should they ask you? Really? Since you've been here? Yeah. Well, anyway, somehow, and maybe tomorrow I can make it clearer why I think this is related to city practice and mountain practice. And you don't have to keep your mouth shut. No, it's... I think if we're going to do it first, we have to just feel it out for ourself and myself with one or two people, and then I'll see. As long as I'm not feeling from the side, because my nose... And I think that if we do this, then I have to figure it out for myself first, how it is, maybe with one or two people first.

[42:00]

And if that happens, then please don't from the side, because my nose is like that. I was going to ask why you were so strongly opposed, but actually I think you just said you were going to try to make it clear. But the other question is also, you said more about practice in the monastery and practice somewhere in the world. One thing you said to me once about practicing in a monastery as opposed to practicing somewhere in the world, that probably I won't be able to do both. At the same time, you mean? Is that what I meant? Well, you said you could probably not do both. Yeah? Really? It doesn't make sense that I'd say that, but... Yeah.

[43:04]

You mean both live in the city and practice? No, I think it's more... The way I heard it was more... maybe commit to both. I don't know. But I heard it in a certain way that still makes sense. Also, that I will probably be able to do both. And for me, this statement was similar to, I am so against this public identity. So I'm saying this, that I probably won't be able to do both. The statement that to be so strongly opposed to that, as you just said it, I... The way you said you will probably not be able to do both, which is not like a prediction or something like that, but more like a... I said both and.

[44:13]

Maybe I can do both and. It was similarly strong as this, I'm so strongly opposed to a public identity. So I feel it's related, this living in the city, or living in the mountains, or having a public identity, or having a mountain identity. So it's something I look at. Well, there's no, I mean, the least anonymous place you are is in a village. Living in a city, you're much more anonymous and have an anonymity with your cappuccino all by yourself. Did you want to say something? Should I translate this? Not really. Oh, no, I thought you had your hand up before. No, go, you can translate, yeah. Okay, now let me launch into something if I can. And we should end in a few minutes.

[45:26]

So if we launch the ship, christen it, Buddhist it, push it out in the sea. Maybe by morning it will have floated back into dark. And again, I don't know quite why, but I'm trying to face in this seminar with you the conceptual problems I see in the relationship between a maturing lay Sangha and a monastic institution. And I'm trying to speak also toward a feeling, I speak toward The experience of being both an individual and an individual in the anonymity of city life.

[46:48]

And also what happens in monastic life. And one thing I'd like to discover with you What are some of the essential aspects of monastic life which make monastic life so effective for evolving practice? What could be brought, what could be learned from that? And also discovered in lay practice life. And yeah, and so forth. Okay, so I had lunch today. And I was sitting in the restaurant of the hotel.

[47:49]

And I'm listening to the music. And as I've spoken very often with you, one of the shifts in practice is the shift from hearing a sound to hearing hearing. You've heard me say this many, many, many times. This pillow is a little too thick for me. So the shift from hearing hearing, the shift from hearing a sound is a very basic shift to knowing that each perception points to mind as well as the object being perceived.

[49:01]

Okay, and so the shift, and of the five physical senses, the sense most easily to experience as the sense itself and as the mind of that sense is hearing. This is in the Surangama Sutra and etc. But anyway, it's just an experience too of any meditator. Okay, so you have a shift from hearing a sound and externalizing your experience of the sound

[50:17]

And allowing that externalization to continue. After all, it's the motorcycle or the bird singing, not you. But you pull that sound in and internalize it as well as allowing it to be external. And now you're experiencing not the external sound, but the capacity of your own hearing. Which is of course different from what the sound is.

[51:33]

The sound is, for example, to another bird. So you're hearing within the limits of your own hearing. Sorry. Now, although you've heard this before, I'm running through it just as a kind of reminder to get us all on the same... Page of notes. He said score. Musical score. Oh. No, he meant musical score. That we are all the same. That we are all the same. That we all know the same. And for reasons we won't try to go into now, the experience of hearing your own experience is often ecstatic.

[52:52]

Or blissful. And the sound even loses its externality or its conceptual identity as birdsong or whatever. And become the fulfillment of your own experience of hearing. I mean, you feel the limits of your hearing, which is also the completion of your hearing. Now, I think the vivid, at least as far as I know, the vividness of this experience may occur to anyone, but particularly occurs to meditators. But the thorough embodiment of that experience is probably most known by a meditator.

[54:04]

Okay. Okay. Okay. Now, in the midst of this blissful, often blissful experience of hearing your own hearing or seeing your own hearing, etc., Yeah. And releasing yourself from the conceptual, from the conceptualization, which is always a kind of little prism. Wonderful prison sometimes. Yeah, but we have cognitive prisoners in the world. And we want to release the prisoners. This is something Roland Barthes also said.

[55:30]

Barthes, B-A-R-T-H-E-S When you release the prisoners, the cognitive prisoners, you're on the edge of uniqueness. because the world is no longer conceptually externalized. And the world, once you kind of embody that experience, locate yourself in that experience of hearing, hearing,

[56:34]

And locate yourself in the perceptual immediacy of every sense, each sense. The world comes to you without boundaries. And your own boundaries tend to pulse and move and appear and disappear. And that's coded nondescriptively as non-duality. We'd say that Zen talks about non-duality, but you can't experience just a word. So I'm trying to speak about the verification I'm using the word verification instead of experience.

[57:57]

Verify, veritas, inveritas, et cetera. It means to make true. So more than just experience, you make it true to truth itself. Which feels very good. You feel located in yourself and located in the world. And we call it, in a simple sense, non-duality. Okay, okay. But in fact this non-duality is quite scary because your own borders are disappearing.

[59:00]

Now how do you supply the continuity of self over time? Okay, so this is an extraordinary territory to be in actually. And takes a whole new way to locate yourself psychologically and feel yourself psychologically. And to feel yourself in relationship to your past and your potential future. Okay. Now, I want to take this one step further. Which, when you are Located in the uniqueness of the completion of your own senses.

[60:13]

To keep it simple, located in hearing, hearing. The resonance of hearing, hearing. the world can become, if you sustain this experience, becomes to be, becomes, the world becomes continuously present in its uniqueness. Then let's go back to the music, listening to the music at lunch. Okay. The music itself, whatever it is, is just coming over the loudspeaker, right?

[61:34]

Becomes uncannily precise, uncannily? Okay. Uncannily precise and waiting to be anticipated. Die wird unheimlich präzise oder genau und wartet darauf, vorweggenommen zu werden. And you find yourself engaged in the music as if you were the musician. Und du findest dich in der Musik teilhabend so wieder, als wenn du der Musiker wärst. Why engaged in the music as if you were the musician? In other words, you're no longer hearing the sound of the music. That's not, I mean, you hear the sound of the music, but you're no longer located in the sound of the music.

[62:37]

You're no longer located in the sound of the music. Nor are you located in the hearing of the hearing. You're located in the musician before he plays the next note. Now how did you get there? You get there because you're in the midst of the uniqueness. And you're not hearing the predictability of the music, you're hearing the uniqueness of the music. And my experience is that's true of jazz and Bach. Jazz is obviously, you know, often more unpredictable than Bach.

[63:50]

And it still has a lot of predictability in it. But I'm speaking about something prior to predictability. But how can I, I, I don't know, something here, know the next note before it's played? Because the fabric of notes, the tapestry of sound, the musician him or herself is playing one note, and the whole field of notes anticipates the next note, which they don't know quite what they're going to play yet either.

[64:59]

Now if it's Bach, they technically know what the next note is going to be. But they really don't know what attention they're going to fill that note with. But when you really hear the uniqueness of the music you're not hearing its predictability. And when you hear its predictability, as lovely as that might be, you're protecting yourself from uniqueness. But when you no longer protect yourself from uniqueness, which is really important to talk about sometimes, you then are not hearing the music, you're feeling the musicians. you're feeling musicians as they're about to reach the next note.

[66:22]

And when they reach the next note, you reach the next note at the same time. It's extraordinarily satisfying. The music is being produced by you too. And you and the musician are in the non-duality of uniqueness. And again, it's not so much that you experience the musician more than you're experiencing the music. But you're verifying the musician and you are in a process of verification.

[67:27]

Which is, because the musician is feeling this with other musicians and now suddenly with some anonymous person in a restaurant somewhere. And I have this experience not because I'm particularly musical, which I'm not. I have this experience because I'm familiar with the experience of the non-duality of uniqueness. Which incubates you in the world in a different way. And it's something that I think is characteristic of city, the city path as well as the mountain path. Oh, I hope that wasn't too much.

[68:52]

I never said that before. I could get out there to try to do it. What? I had to get out there to try to do it. Anyway, thank you. So we can see what that has to do with the mountain path and the city path tomorrow, if you're patient. So let's sit for the sound of a bell at least. Just wherever you are is fine. I brought my equipment. Each of us is different.

[70:54]

And each of us is shared by the other. At least in the immediacy of the situation. And our whole life proceeds through the immediacy of situation.

[71:26]

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