If they want to visit some people, their families from outside, or other visitors want to visit them, they must meet in a house that's between the two walls, with a senior nun, a monshu, you know, not really called the proctor type, you know, a disciplinarian, head nun, non-disciplinarian in strict attendance. He's saying that in Tibet, there's this nunnery. It's the only way you can talk to someone if you happen to know someone or wish to visit someone who's a nun in that monastery. Therefore, if you want to do it, you have to go, and you sit there, and the head ani-disciplinarian, nun-disciplinarian is sitting there, and she hears everything that is said, and you have your conversation, and then the nun goes back in there, and you go back out there, and there's no buddy-buddy activity. So, the mother of the nuns can go inside, or sisters also, no one else can get inside

[01:29]

If someone of importance or for some special reason wants to meet the images in the temple there, or pay homage in that monastery, then they are led strictly in by the senior disciplinarian and led strictly back out. Therefore, celibacy is not difficult if one develops a controlled situation where what one sees with the eye and hears with the ear and says with the mouth is under some kind of control. So, that's the story of celibacy. There is a small celibacy movement, I don't really want to call it a movement, in this country, where people who are not particularly associated with any religious institution will become celibate for a year, perhaps. I'm reminded of the taking vows for a day, you know, that kind of great version mentioned.

[02:38]

And I've had friends who've done that. There's a research in a book written on the subject. Evidently, I haven't done it myself, but it's an interesting thing to do. Energy has become available. It is something that the people who do it consider worthwhile. If you do take a vow of celibacy and it becomes known, you get a certain kind of attention from both sexes that is not predicted usually when you take that. So, I wanted you to know that even in an uncontrolled situation such as this country, people will become celibate and find it very interesting and rewarding to be celibate. And don't consider losing something as much as gaining some experience. Thank you very much.

[04:13]

Yes. He feels thankful to you for telling him about that. He finds that interesting. And he says that also, of course, that celibacy in its definition of brahmacharya, that is to say, living in orientation towards liberation, is, of course, finally a kind of attitude. The actual act itself has to be combined with attitude to be true brahmacharya. My sense is that there's quite a difference between being de facto celibate and having, after taking vows, a detention of celibacy. And I wonder if someone could address themselves to that. And then I also wanted to ask, kind of, hear you, or should I hear it, kind of, maybe third or fourth hand, that you have stated that you would only ordain as priests people who have taken vows of celibacy.

[05:35]

And I wonder if that is the case, or if you could say something about that. I don't order them to be celibacy. I tell them what is the best way of passing through life to be free, to liberation. In other words, nirvana, whatever. If you want to have real freedom as a priest, what is the best way? I say the best way is such and such. But it depends on you. If you want to choose this way or that way, that's okay. But I have to. But before I think you have ordination, I think you'd better be single. Because if you have ordination and then try to practice it, if you are married, it's very difficult to practice.

[06:36]

Concentrate on practicing. That's why I want to say, as much as possible, to have a single person to be ordained. I do not order them to be celibacy. I just tell them what is the real situation of the Buddha Shakyamuni Master. Does that mean that after somebody has been a priest for several years, you don't mind so much as they get married? Yeah, I don't say so either. I always continually say what is the best way. That's what I can tell. Not my ideas. If I say Buddha's teaching in terms of my idea, I have to say many things. After ordination, you can get married, etc. You shouldn't do it. But I don't want to say this way. What I can tell is, this is the best way. That's all. May I make a question? About two years ago, I saw Kono Taizoroshi from Rinzai.

[07:41]

Kono came here, and he went to Tassajara. He saw married monks kissing in public, and he was quite puzzled. He did not know what to think about that. He said, the overall sexual energy in the monastery is so much more relaxed than his monastery in Japan. Because the old celibate monks always think about the women. Therefore, their energy is wasted, and they can't really know how to deal with women when they come. So, I thought it was very interesting about observing our practice here. That was one comment I wanted to tell. And another thing was something Baranchi mentioned and you, Bao, mentioned. I love to support monks' practice very much.

[08:46]

You don't have to call it monks' practice, but pure practice in this country. But I feel very confused about the situation now in our center. Only I know about Zen Center. The way I feel confused about was when the Begaroshi's sexual misconduct happened, the way people treated each other and the way people treated him was so unkind. And I felt very bad, upset by it. Because to me, that wouldn't be the model for treating each other. And in the monastery, I wanted people to show us how to act to each other. In that kind of case, in that kind of very important moment arises, how all these ordained people act to each other. And if I felt very good about it, I would support it more than ever.

[09:53]

And in that point, I lost the intention of support of Zen Center. And I haven't been sitting with you because it was too noisy. The mind was too noisy. And I felt it was much quieter in my home being myself sitting. And that's why I lost support to Zen Center. And I think what Bob mentioned, I would love supporting monks studying Dharma, concentrating on that, not taking care of field and the financial part of it. I feel I come from a traditional lay family. We've been supporting temples in Japan for quite many years. And it's our pleasure to do it. And so please do well so that you can show us some good conduct. Thank you.

[10:57]

Bob, you know, one thing about all this that had been brought up, I've always thought of celibacy... And I have no doubts that you could be liberated quicker if you were celibate. I wasn't saying... I mean, you know, as simple as your life is, I was just saying it was unlikely it was going to happen, you know. I know the situation here. But it seems to me that one of the main... Pardon? I know the situation in Zen Center, right? Oh, okay. But it seems to me that the big deal about it is that you have to live with somebody of the opposite sex. I mean, in fact, if you're having sex or not, it's dealing with the opposite sex. If you have children, it's all the responsibilities. There's this whole big area of relating and all that. Is that... Could you ask Rupshay if that's considered, not just the sex aspect, the responsibilities, and also the tense relationship that happens between men and women

[11:59]

where they, you know, drive each other crazy and strangle each other and things. But what about that? I mean, is that... Is that considered in... I mean, we've just been talking about it as sex. Is that... Are there little breakdowns of things? Is that part of the reason for being celibate? Yes. Yes. No.

[13:01]

No. No. Of course. Of course. The celibacy part is only part of the larger element which was known traditionally as coming out of the home, moving from home to homelessness, which means a person's choice, and it involves changing one's dress, changing one's name, changing one's sense of relationship to living beings, and involves a notion, a sense of the invalidity for at least that person of carrying on the parental, sort of the family lineage archetypes, reproducing them by, you know, becoming like one's parents and then being children, having children, and sort of keeping up a certain kind of stream of behavior and a stream of patterns that are handed down in a family, and saying that that home is something imprisoning

[14:11]

and not conducive to liberation, not that useful for living beings, abandoning, therefore, all of that totally in addition to sex, completely sex is not that much of a part of it, and in order to relate to all beings in a certain kind of a way, and put all of one's energies into becoming, born in a new family, in a family oriented towards enlightenment rather than a family oriented towards preserving the genetic lineage. And so, of that, the sexual act is only sort of one key core element of it, but sexuality itself, of the whole notion of keeping embedded in a certain genetic lineage and a sense of genetic identity, a family, you know, ego is, identity is totally interconnected to family identities and archetypes, of course. So it's a rupture with all of that, you're quite right, and therefore, of course, is the answer. Thank you very much. I'd like two more questions, and we have all day tomorrow, so we can go on. Did you wish to say, Covan, and then I'll call on Susan and this gentleman for the two final questions. Covan? Thank you.

[15:18]

There was a question in Bendora that the practice of Zazen is only for monks and nuns, and Dogen Zenji spoke of the practice of Zazen is essential. It doesn't choose people. Sitting is for everybody. Young and old, married or unmarried, sitting doesn't choose the practice people. And the recognition of being laymen or laywomen

[16:40]

or becoming monk and nun is up to them. Through the recognition of their own desire to be one of four. And even laymen, laywomen can also wear the monk's robe if they wish to do so, because there is no discrimination of monk's clothes and layman's clothes, which means Buddha's teaching is to everybody.

[17:45]

For practitioners, the teaching reveals itself to them equally and people receive it with their capacity. Zazen The robes we wear is not too warm because one wearer wants to wear it. It's simply transmitted as a

[18:51]

best luck for the practitioner to sustain their practice inside and outside. The one who wears it practices with it, the one who sees it practices with it. And it is stitched barely. One straight robe, five stripes of robe, seven stripes of robe, and it goes to 84,000 stripes of robes. And mist becomes your robe,

[19:59]

wind becomes your robe, field of blossom becomes your robe. So observing precepts, I don't understand the discussion of who becomes celibate. From what next generation appears? Somehow we have to protect and nourish the pure,

[21:02]

honest wish to continue to practice. I think that's actually a nice place to stop. Let us offer the next chant to each other and to our teachers and to all the Buddhas. Namaskar.

[21:47]

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