First, a personal confession before we get started. Of all of the things that we have read so far, this is probably my favorite. Now, I'm not saying it's my favorite because I prefer this doctrine or this approach. It's my favorite because I find these texts to be very, very interesting. And at times I may just spin off into my own line of reasoning and stop me if I just sort of wander off into a wasteland of comparing this to that. But that may give you some consolation that they're worth reading. There's something there. And in fact, what I want to try to demonstrate tonight, and I suspect this will take us into tomorrow morning as well, is that these two conferences, Conference 9 and Conference 10, are key. They conclude the first set of conferences, numbers 1 to 10, and those were the only conferences Cashin intended to write. His original intention was to write one set of conferences, and he arranged them numbers one to ten, beginning with a conference on the goal of the monk, addressing various topics, and then ending with a treatment of prayer.

[01:11]

So for our purposes, we can kind of forget about these other two sets, because he did those later, simply because the first was successful. Now, it's a commonplace that when somebody, especially ancient writers, put together a collection of things, what they put at the beginning and what they put at the end were the most important parts of it. So you always say, all right, what's he trying to prove by this kind of structure? And I think what we find with these first ten conferences is that although Cassian opens with a discussion of the aim and goal of the monk, he's really saying the aim and the goal of the monk is prayer. What is prayer? That's what he discusses at the end of that first set in Conferences 9 and 10. It's interesting to compare the beginnings of Conference 1 to the beginnings of Conference 9. Remember, I talked about Conference 1 this morning, and the question which is posed in that conference is, what is the aim and goal of the monastic life?

[02:18]

And the answer given was, first of all, the kingdom of heaven. but a little more practically for this world, the immediate aim or goal is purity of heart, without which no one can gain that end of the kingdom of heaven. That's conference one. If you go to conference nine and look at its beginning, it says this, the aim of every monk and the perfection of his heart It tends to continual and unbroken perseverance in prayer, and as far as it is allowed to human frailty, strives to acquire an immovable tranquility of mind and a perpetual purity, for the sake of which we seek unweariedly and constantly to practice all bodily labors as well as contrition of spirit." Now, the echo is very strong.

[03:20]

And what Conference 9 is doing is really amplifying that initial statement about the aim of the monk and kind of giving you a little more information on what it's really all about after you've waded through all of this other material on the monastic life. You add to this a statement in Conference 10, and as I'll try to show you, the structure of Conference 9 and the structure of Conference 10 are really identical. they duplicate each other to make their point. Conference 10 states this, every intention and goal of the solitary must be the foretaste of heaven found when all one's life, every desire of the heart, becomes one incessant prayer. So that gives us a pretty good idea of the significance of these conferences and what their basic point is. Furthermore, there are very close ties between these two conferences and the institutes and the other conferences as well.

[04:28]

In Institutes Book 2, he promises that he will discuss the spiritual character of prayer in the Conferences, because remember this morning I mentioned that Book 2 of the Institutes lays out how people in Egypt prayed, the structure of their common prayer. And he says, when I get to the Conferences, I'll tell you what it means. So in Conference 9 and 10, we find the fulfillment of that promise. an explanation of the significance and meaning of the prayer of the monk. My thesis, which I'll endeavor to prove, is that rather than finding that the canonical prayer of the institutes, the psalm, the readings, and so on, that we're familiar with as monastic prayer, Rather than knocking those down and saying, that's for beginners, the real prayer is something else in Conferences 9 and 10, Cashin does not replace or degrade the psalmody readings and prayers, which are every monk's obligation, whether he's a solitary or a cenobite.

[05:39]

And in fact, what he does is give us a very neat way of understanding the relationship between prayer and scripture. These two conferences are really an extended answer to the simple question put to Abba Isaac, the person the conferences are attributed to, by Cassian's friend Germanus. This is the fellow who accompanied Cassian from his home in Scythia to Palestine and then to Egypt. And the question is, we hear all of this stuff about unceasing prayer. How do we do it? Now, it takes many pages to get the answer, and in fact, the answer of Abba Isaac is a simple one, but he leaves it for the end of Conference 10, and we have to work our way through a whole bunch of other material before we get there. He's hesitant to give away the secret of a desert monk's unceasing prayer until he is confident that the person asking

[06:42]

has gone through the labor of ascesis, the practical life, and is ready to receive this wisdom. And so we, too, have to go through all of that stuff in reading these conferences before we get the secret. What is noteworthy, if you compare these two conferences, and not at all obvious if you try to just sit down and read them, is that they're very carefully constructed. As I mentioned a minute ago, in effect they duplicate one another and they build to the climax of Conference 10 where Abba Isaac gives the secret of unceasing prayer. Now I've made a chart and each one of you can have a copy of it. which demonstrates this structural similarity, and which can be a help to you as I go through these conferences, since you don't have a text in front of you. This can be a kind of précis of the material. So I have Conference 9 running across the top, Conference 10 underneath it, and if you look at the bottom of the sheet, you can see the basic divisions of the conferences, and you find they're parallel.

[08:19]

Each one has an introduction, of course, but then immediately turns to the discussion of the goal of prayer, followed by some practical questions or problems related to that goal, then a section on method, which is the center of each conference, then moving from a discussion of method to a kind of higher goal, where prayer is to lead, and finally closing on kind of a downbeat with practical issues. It kind of tapers off at that point. The structural climax of each conference is where Abba Isaac gives the method of prayer, and related to that is the discussion of the higher goal, ultimate goal of prayer. I've given the chapter indications, too, so that you can see how that structural thing works. Now, I'm told that nobody ever sorted this out before, so I'm kind of pleased with myself for coming up with this.

[09:27]

We'll see if it holds together as we look through it, though. So just to generalize before we get into it, each conference moves very slowly to the center of it, section C, which is method, which is preceded and followed by a discussion of a goal and then practical issues related to attaining that goal. Conference 10 begins that progression all over again after that little interlude about the crisis in monastic circles about the image of God and goes through all of the same issues and problems as Germanus keeps asking his question and Abba Isaac keeps putting him off and putting him off until finally he gives him the answer at the end of Conference 10. I've described this structure as being sort of like that of a spiral. So that here you have Conference 9 and moving up to Conference 10, which has the same parts, but it's kind of on a higher plane.

[10:30]

So you've got to work your way through all of that stuff before you get the final answer. I don't know any other way to do this than to go through each conference quickly, hitting the high points, but if I tried to summarize it, it really wouldn't make any sense. So we can follow through our chart here and see how Cashion leads us from the basic question, how do I pray unceasingly, to his answer, which is deceptive, I think, in its simplicity. We've seen how Conference 9 opens with its restatement of the aim and purpose of a monk, and we've seen that restatement in terms of unceasing prayer. So the purity of heart seems to have very much to do with prayer. Now, the immediate question that arises is, OK, you've said that.

[11:34]

How do we do it? And what Cassian proceeds to do is to give a capsule description of all of the business of the practice, the escesis, the work of rooting out the passions, the work of laying a foundation of humility, erecting a structure of virtues, and so on, that he spent all his time in the rest of the writings talking about. So once again, you always start at square one. Whenever you ask how to do something in the monastic life or how to achieve a spiritual goal, you go back to basics. And that's what he does in this first part of Conference Nine. So it's a very standard discussion of detachment and rooting out vice and elaborating virtue and so on. And the disciple Germanus is unsatisfied. He's heard all this before. He didn't come here to hear a restatement of everything he's ever heard about monasticism. So he keeps after Abba Isaac and says, okay, we know this stuff, but we still have to deal with the apostles' injunction to pray unceasingly, to pray always.

[12:49]

How can we do it? if indeed the perfection of the monk consists in the consummation of prayer. And he also raises an interesting question, which Abba Isaac does not deal with in Conference 9, and that is, how does Scripture fit into this? What is intriguing about Conference 9 is that there's all this discussion about a monk's prayer and his spiritual life and so on, and it never once discusses the issue of meditating scripture. Now that's very clever on Abba Isaac's part, because that becomes the focus of Conference 10. So what emerges is that this Abba Isaac is being kind of coy. to this simple question. He's kind of dodging it and kind of teasing and saving the real answer for the second conference. So when he's asked, how do we pray unceasingly,

[13:53]

He replies once again with a very traditional and standard explanation of the types of prayer. And he gets this from Origen, whose famous basic treatise on prayer becomes a model for subsequent treatises. And it's nothing that we would find unusual. It's the usual discussion of supplication and thanksgiving and so on. And Cashin talks about the fact that there's kind of a vague progression in these things. You start off with one kind of prayer and you move to another and all this. But you begin to get a clue as to what Cashin is after when he admits that you really can't structure these things in any kind of progression, what we were talking about this morning, about system. He admits that at times, and this can happen to anyone, he says, even at the beginning of prayer, all of a sudden you'll be all caught up in all four of them at once. And in fact, you may even transcend these four types of prayer and achieve a sort of prayer that he describes in extraordinary terms.

[15:02]

An ardent prayer which cannot be embraced or expressed by the mouth of men. Let's see. Sometimes the mind which is advancing to that perfect state of purity, and which is already beginning to be established in it, will take in all four kinds of prayer at one and the same time, and like some incomprehensible and all-devouring flame, dart through them all and offer up to God inexpressible prayers of the purest force, which the Spirit itself, intervening with groanings that cannot be uttered, while we ourselves understand not, pours forth to God. Grasping at that hour, and ineffably pouring forth in its supplications, things so great they cannot be uttered with the mouth, nor even at any other time be recollected by the mind. Now, this may sound like so much spiritual hocus-pocus, but what Cassian is doing here

[16:11]

is giving us the first mention of a type of prayer which transcends the use of words. And it's a theme that he'll go back to, as I've noted on the chart here, where it says four in one. What I'm talking about is the four types of prayer. And I put flame in quotation marks, because there is often a discussion of the prayer fire in Cassian. He's kind of known for that. And I give you the two other places where he ultimately talks about this. And what we'll find is that this description here, when added to the other description of it in Conference 9, will be put together to make the description in Conference 10. So two short texts are put together in the next conference to make one long one, and you begin to realize this guy knows what he's doing, because he's trying to sort of give you a hint of what's coming by giving you this initial description. What follows after that kind of foretaste of the ultimate discussion of prayer is a very conventional discussion of the Lord's Prayer.

[17:20]

Now, again, this is nothing new. From the time of origin on, any treatise on prayer discusses the Lord's Prayer, because that is the basic prayer of Christians given by Jesus himself. What is of interest to us is that when Cashin talks about the Lord's Prayer, he describes it as a formula of prayer which can lead one to this higher state that he keeps talking about and which he hinted at in that prayer of fire business, which still seems very abstract to us until we get to Conference 10. Put away in your head that word formula because that will come back used for a very different text in Conference 10. After his rather lengthy treatise on the Lord's Prayer, Cashin gives another description of what this higher or sublimer prayer that he keeps hinting at is all about.

[18:25]

and I'll read this one to you too. It all begins to sound alike. That ardent prayer known and tried by few, which transcends all human thoughts, and is distinguished not by any sound of the voice, nor by movement of the tongue, nor utterance of the words, but consists of the mind enlightened by the infusion of that heavenly light, which cannot be described in human language. but which expresses itself in the shortest space of time such great things that the mind, when it returns to its usual condition, cannot easily utter or relate." Now, two things are worth noting in that description. Well, three. First of all, it's very much like the earlier one. Secondly, it's related to something involving the saying of a text of the Lord's Prayer, which can be a kind of springboard into this prayer, which does not use words.

[19:31]

And the third thing worth noting is that this is not a kind of prayer which you continue in for a long period of time. Because he says when your mind settles back down again and it comes sort of back to where you were before, you don't understand what has happened. Now that should make us begin to wonder how this fits in with unceasing prayer. Unceasing prayer is not the attainment of permanent ineffable, unspeaking prayer. That's an important caution, and that's going to be very important for our understanding how Cassian deals with psalmody and scripture in Conference 10. Following this, Germanus kind of comes back with his question, which is, okay, this is quite a goal. But again, how can we hold on to this spirit of this disposition to this form of prayer?

[20:36]

What is it that we can do? And what follows is a kind of discussion about tears of compunction and whether prayers are heard or not, and the fact that prayers should be short and should be silent, which reminds us of somebody else. And also an interesting little saying by Antony where he says, That is not perfect prayer when a monk understands himself and the words which he prays. That's kind of gratuitous, but just toss that in. This whole conference kind of peters out. You've had hints of this great state of prayer, and you've had Germanas keep asking, how do I pray unceasingly? How do I pray unceasingly? And Cassian doesn't really come through. Cassian, Abba Isaac, but Cassian writing it. And the thing ends with this phrase. With these words of the holy Isaac, we were dazzled rather than satisfied.

[21:38]

And after evening service had been held, rested our limbs for a short time, intending at the first dawn again to return under promise of a fuller discussion. rejoicing over the acquisition of these precepts he'd given us, as well as rejoicing over the fact that he promised to tell us more. Since we felt that though the excellence of prayer had been shown to us, still we had not yet understood from his discourse its nature and the power by which continuance in it might be gained and kept. So what you get the impression of is that Conference 9 is kind of an elaborate appetizer, a lengthy one, but really nothing more substantial, because the real answer, the real fare for this interested young disciple has not been given him. And so this Abba Isaac's playing a bit of a game, being very cautious in answering this deceptively simple question, because he knows how significant the consequences are.

[22:46]

Now, at this point, we could go on to Conference 10, we could stop for a minute and see if there are any questions here, whatever your pleasure is. I don't know how you're feeling this evening. Any questions? Is there, you mentioned the spiral, there must be a kind of a statement between the two that makes the spiral, or is it just a repetition, or an activity? You know, just plop around while you're only... I'm not very good at geometry and so on, and I came up with the spiral as the best way I could think of to describe the fact that both conferences have a kind of circular structure.

[23:55]

They sort of start with this discussion of a goal and proceed through that. Conference 10 does the same thing structurally as Conference 9, but it's dealing with it on a different plane. It's kind of a, Abba Isaac is kind of bringing these young people into the real higher knowledge about prayer. So it's the same structure, but it's kind of duplicated on a higher level. So I kind of thought of a spiral as a way of working up to that. Maybe it doesn't work. Exactly. And I think that's Abba Isaac's point, and he says that in Conference 10. He says, OK, I've kept my eye on you, Germanus, and I think you really are ready. And so I'll tell you what the answer is.

[24:59]

But he wants to make sure that this guy knows all of the work of the practique, that he knows all of the traditional forms of prayer, that he knows the Our Father and what it means. And only with that kind of foundation and experience can he understand the other. So it's certainly essential. It's not just running around in circles. But it is very coy. It's cleverly done. Cleverly done. What shall I plunge into, Conference 10? Do you have a question? I was just going to say, where is it that you got this idea that... Are you getting from Calvin Klein this idea that... This particular unceasing prayer is not the constant, ineffable, worthless.

[26:05]

Is the first suggestion that in Conflicts 9, there's awareness again? It's in that the second description, 9.25, Chapter 25, Conference 9, where it describes this state, but it seems clear that it is a short-lived kind of thing. My real evidence for that is Conference 10, where—well, I don't want to anticipate it, but I think there's evidence for it, and when I get to it, I can underscore it. remembering that my basic thesis here is that he's not saying you spend a few years with scripture and psalmody and vigils and so on and then you leave that behind because your prayer is without words. That's not what he's saying. And I think sometimes people think that. And that's risky. Are there any other questions at this point?

[27:09]

Maybe I'll start conference ten. I don't know if we'll finish it because I I hate to talk a lot in the evening, because people get tired, are tired. But let's take a look at it anyway. I've got a rather complicated system of notes here, so there's a lot of paper shuffling. OK. Now remember we end Conference 9 with the evening and it's late and the conference is over and they're going to say, well, the next day we'll get the answer to our question. So you turn to Conference 10 and you expect it to begin, the next day at dawn we sat around and Abbot Isaac told us the true answer. Instead, you've got two or three pages of discourse about this big crisis in Egyptian monasticism over how God is pictured. And you say, wait a minute, why is this here? Why junk up this apparently straightforward and kind of catechetical instruction on prayer with this rather biased doctrinal discussion?

[28:20]

Well, there's a reason. Cassian's up to something interesting, and he's really up to something, and that if you read his account at the beginning of Conference 10 of that controversy, you'd think that he was on the side that won. In other words, that those people who were urging that any sort of image of God or material conception of God be rejected, you'd think that they're the ones who won the day. And in fact, he says, well, you know, the bishop condemned those crude, simple monks and so on. Well, yes, the bishop did, but then the bishop reversed it a year later, and Cassian and his people were driven out for their thinking, but he doesn't mention that. So it's a lovely example of the way ancients wrote history. It's completely backwards. But the point that he makes is a good one. And he's beginning to let us know that he's making a transition here, from Conference 9 to Conference 10, and underscoring this kind of spiritual approach to God and to Christ and to prayer, which will underlie his discussion of higher prayer, awful vocabulary, but that's the way he talks about it, in Conference 10.

[29:36]

So I think we've got to pay attention to it instead of just skipping it. This is where there's that famous story of Appa Serapion who was a leader of the so-called anthropomorphists, the people who had this very visual conception of God. And his famous response and bewilderment when he's told that he can no longer believe this, it's terribly touching. They describe him as coming to prayer and having been told, well, you know, this is wrong. You can't do that. And he kind of thinks about it and sort of is half convinced. But all of a sudden, he bursts into tears. And he says, alas, wretched man that I am, they have taken away my God from me, and I have now none to lay hold of. and whom to worship and address, I know not." Now, my sympathy is with this guy, but Cashin just said he's a damnable fool.

[30:38]

Now, I think what that tells us is not that Cashin lacks sympathy for people, because I think he's actually very gentle in most of these things, but that the issue at stake was a very significant one. And it goes back to what I said this morning about the relationship between doctrine and prayer. So these doctrinal questions are really going to have a lot of bearing on how people pray. So Cashin moves from this kind of brief description of these people and the controversy to talk about how that influences prayer. He says that the goal of those who know real Catholic doctrine is to arrive at that perfectly pure condition in prayer, which will not only not connect with its prayers any figure of the Godhead or bodily liniments, but will not even allow in itself even the memory of a name or the appearance of an action or an outline of any character."

[31:47]

Now, that sounds odd to us, but he explains what he's talking of Evagrius' treatises, that is surprising. The name of Jesus, of Christ in his humanity, as we are to think of Christ transfigured and glorified. And that becomes kind of a model for this move from the practicae to the unceasing prayer and to the higher prayer, moving from a kind of natural state to a state of transfiguration or glory. And that's going to relate, too, with this business of language, moving from a prayer which relies on language and words to a prayer which at times can transcend words, not abolishing their value, but at times moving beyond them to the ultimate point, which is God, who is not a word or an idea or an image. So if you read that, that's what that is all about.

[32:50]

It is after that discussion of how we are to conceive of Christ and how we are to conceive the image of God in prayer that Cashion gives what I think is one of the most beautiful descriptions of what the goal of all this is. He describes this ineffable prayer and this prayer of fire and so on, but he doesn't really talk about what it leads to, except in chapter 7 of Conference 10. I'll read this little paragraph to you. All this, all this good stuff, he says, will come to pass when God shall be all our love, and every desire, and wish, and effort, every thought of ours, and all our life, and words, and breath, and that unity which already exists between the Father and the Son, and the Son and the Father, has been shed abroad in our hearts and minds, so that as He loves us with a pure and unfeigned and indissoluble love,

[33:59]

So we also may be joined to him by a lasting and inseparable affection, since we are so united to him that whatever we breathe or think or speak is God." That's pretty powerful language. He goes on to say, this then ought to be the destination of the solitary. and I would argue any monk in Cassian's own scheme, not only on my terms, this should be all his aim, that it may be vouchsafed to him to possess even in the body an image of future bliss, and that he may begin in this world to have a foretaste of a sort of earnest of that celestial life and glory. This is the end of all perfection, that the mind purged from all carnal desires may daily be lifted toward spiritual things, until the whole life and all the thoughts of the heart become one continuous prayer."

[35:05]

So, that's his description of this prayer in Conference 10. And again, if you look at the chart, structurally we're beginning our duplication of Conference 9, because he also has a description of the perfect prayer. in Conference 9, which leads us to Germanus' question, repeated again as it was presented in Conference 9. And he says, this is the young disciple now, the extent of our bewilderment at our wondering awe at the former conference, because of which we came back to you again, increases still more. If we're in proportion as by the incitements of this teaching, we are fired with the desire of perfect bliss. So do we fall back into greater despair as we know not how to seek or obtain training for such lofty heights.

[36:12]

Please tell us, he goes on to say, what we can have to meditate on to achieve this goal. And Germana says, there's got to be a system. Our notion is that the perfection of any art or training must begin with some simple rudiments." So he says, basically, for this highest learning also, by which we are taught to cleave to God, I have no doubt that there must be some foundations of a system. And he says, this must be what it is. First, we have to learn some meditations to grasp and contemplate God. And next, we have to have a way of holding on to those meditations. So he says to Abba Isaac, give me a meditation. Give me something that I can use to obtain this. And the whole context of this is that tradition of the repetition of scripture.

[37:17]

So he's saying, as any disciple would say to his Abba, Abba give me a word. But in this context, give me a word which will enable me to pray unceasingly and to get at all the stuff you've described so beautifully, but haven't told me how to obtain. And what comes next is the method of unceasing prayer. But something tells me that maybe we should stop and discuss for a few minutes, rather than moving into that topic and finding ourselves out of time. So I'll be like Abba Isaac and say, I'll tell you tomorrow. Now this is hard stuff. And I'm sure it must be a bit confusing. You really have to go back to it yourself if you're interested and come up with your own understanding of it. It's not consistent. I mean, it really isn't a system.

[38:19]

How do you combine pure image as a prayer scriptural meditation, which seems to be, by its nature, dealing with the origin of the text. Does he not bother to reconcile it? Well, that's what he does in The Big Answer, is to deal with that question. I mean, if I don't meditate on this creature, and I start getting those images that come from this creature, hopefully, I will reach above all those images and we fade away. We just get into that point of insistent prayer. So I have to start from something. Exactly. And in my way after prayer, And we're getting rid of all those images, all those barricades, and we are behind the phone and it's nothing there but the experience of God.

[39:28]

I think he would say that too. And that's why that discussion of Jesus, he says, you know, we begin with, he says, when we pray, we begin with the example of Jesus on the mountain in solitude, praying himself. And he says that's where we begin. But he says our goal is to be with Jesus transfigured and glorified. But we've got to start I have an image and I fall in love with that image and I don't want that image to leave me. I'm stuck in that point and I cannot progress in that. Like some people cannot pray. The only way they can pray is before they bless a sacrament. And to me that's a hindrance in a way. That's the only way one can progress. And you have to be willing to reach the highest state of prayer. I think I have to use all those things as long as they are useful for me.

[40:42]

But I have to be able and willing to leave them behind in my way up to the tip of the mountain. I think that's just what he's saying. And I think his concern with the people who kind of stop with that kind of bodily conception of God is that they're not going to see God face to face as God is. which is not, you know, in those kind of material terms, which is something beyond us. Now, the danger with that is, you know, kind of saying, well, there's, you know, that kind of prayer, and then there's real prayer. That's tricky. And, you know, we've got to avoid that. But I think he has a way of addressing even that issue at the end of this conference, which I'll mention tomorrow. I think that's exactly it. I get the impression that I really kind of feel all of a sudden that this request of Germanus is anti-climaxing this climax to which he's just come to.

[41:58]

Or I feel like the offering of this system he wants to get a hold of, you know, is sort of almost a condescension off of the, you know, because it seems like he's built up to this point where it kind of includes everything, the whole effort of earnest and love, and then to been to somehow offer a technique, which is that where it's loaded. I wonder, you know, maybe I'm all wet on it, but I just wonder about that all of a sudden. I feel like that almost doesn't do justice for it, or it's, you know, the dog's begging for a bone, okay, here you go, do this. Well, I think that Abba Isaac realizes that, or Cassian.

[43:05]

I mean, we can abandon that fiction. It's Cassian talking. And I think that's why he doesn't want to throw the bone right at the start, because he realizes that, you know, he could say, this is the answer, and the guy would say, you know, all this, and you're giving me this answer? I mean, it's so simple. And his point is that it's deceptively simple. And so you've really got to understand all this background before you begin to realize the kind of genius of this approach of this certain type of meditation he'll talk about. And he goes on, he justifies it at length, as we'll see tomorrow, saying, don't think this is silly, because this is when you use it, and this is when you use it, and this is when you use it. There's a lot more to it. So I think he's got that in mind. And maybe he's hesitant because he knows how easy it might look, but that's deceptive. I might be jumping the gun with this, but what do you think of John Maynes' translation of the word formula as a mantra?

[44:11]

Well, I don't think it's a mantra. I think Cashin's point is very clear that, well, that's how to put it. Let me talk about Cassian, and then we can see how to compare that. I think it becomes very clear in Cassian that the sense of the formula, whether it's the Lord's Prayer or it's the Deus in Agitorium, the verse that we'll talk about tomorrow, is that that is very much on the level of means rather than goal. You don't rest in that. I mean, you use it unceasingly, but that is not the end. And it leads beyond itself. And I'll say tomorrow where it leads. And I think the sense of a mantra, at least in some of the Eastern traditions, is that that becomes all. I mean, the mantra contains, you know, some of it. This is some. No, this is some. That's not what John Main is saying.

[45:16]

But I have a problem with using that kind of terminology. to apply to this. So maybe that's the best answer I can give. When I first read that, I said, this is too taken from the from the heart, that's not. He wants to accommodate that to his, because the definition of mantra, it has to be a very short word. One or two syllables, because mantra is not a word, it's a sound. If you have a mantra, you cannot say what is the meaning of life, it's a sound. which would be a sound, simple sound, or two, a combination of two sounds.

[46:23]

And when Cajun talk about that, it's not a word, it's not a two-word, it's just a... And it's scriptural. And it's scriptural, too. But mantra, you said before, that is because the world, everywhere there is no mantra. It's like a means to reach something else, to reach the goal. There is a moment, if you are in the mantra, the mantra is the means. There is a moment the mantra doesn't exist anymore. You reach that, I mean you reach the experience of God. It's like I need a car to go to New York. But the moment I reach New York, I don't need a car anymore to go to New York. That's a mantra for me. And I think that's what Cashin is saying. But my understanding, I mean, from talking to people and from what little I've read about some of the Eastern approaches, is that they might say, yes, that's the case, but I think that they would be

[47:36]

how to put it, that in Cassian, the idea of it being a means is much clearer than it is in some of the Eastern things. And I think maybe that's because in Cassian, the destination is a lot clearer, simply comparing a Christian perspective to a non-Christian perspective. I mean, I have no problem with the techniques, using Eastern techniques, but I have some problems when it's not quite clear. of the fact that it is a Christian context. And so that's why I'm hesitant to use some of that kind of terminology. Well, most of it was a really beautiful day and a terrific night, but that had meaning. And the mantra, by definition, has no meaning. I doubt there would be a big difference, that even though this would have results in some way, and so on and so forth, that it really has it. There's an intention to Good point. And what we'll find tomorrow is that the use of the verse, as Kashin talks about it, leads to meaning, leads to new understanding of scripture.

[48:47]

So it's a funny kind of, it's not just straight up, it's kind of, enables you to return as well with a new understanding. you know, if he's approaching, he's in prayer. Even that means, you know, understanding my teacher, you have to leave it behind. When you reach that, when you reach that goal, you don't need meaning or description, you don't need description. When you are in that state, But I think his point is that, the way I read it, is that you can't have that state constantly in this life. And that's why scripture is so important. And the return to scripture, after you've had a flash of that kind of prayer, is so significant. And that's what he does at the end of this. You have to come back too, yeah. And you don't throw your car away when you get to New York. Is this what he's laying out?

[50:19]

Okay Yes, Dr. Knight, because you're very privileged. In my experience, I think what I was trying to say last night, I had a marvelous question, but I can't remember. Yes, that was a bad answer. Oh, yeah, Mark. Well, what I'm wondering is, is it your impression that this method, to use some words here, and the This method, is he suggesting that this is the desert tradition? In other words, is he suggesting that this is Abbot Isaac suggesting OK, that this is the tradition that has been cultivated in the desert, and this particular method of this line, Psalms, that this is the method for attaining this type of prayer.

[51:45]

He seems to be saying that, yes. He seems to be saying that. It's not just his own thing. It's something that all of the older fathers in the desert know that this is. This is the way. Do you agree that this is the universal desert method? In other words, do you feel this is an accurate presentation of the entire desert tradition of prayer? No, I wouldn't want to say that. One thing I've learned from reading this stuff is that there are no universals in monasticism, except for the Gospel. And even in the desert tradition, there is no universal, whether you're talking about sacramental practice. I mean, you've got some monks with daily Eucharist at this period.

[52:47]

You've got others having it once a week or once a month or once a year. So anywhere you turn, I think there are differences. So I wouldn't want to say it's universal. The other day when we were talking about Anthony, you mentioned how the we were talking some other point, but you mentioned the frequency, and it is frequent, the short paragraphs, seeing the epithet, which are the very short paragraphs, of course, we hear the semantic in that. Are they the same thing? Are they being... I think there can. I think there can. Same thing in what? And it's this. In other words, are these short prayers that you often see pop up when you have a statement to tell your spirit character, are they using them in the same way that this method is suggesting?

[53:49]

Sometimes, but not always. I don't think they have the same kind of formal conception of it that Cashen does. Do you think that the conception that Cashen has, which is this articulation that came out of Northern Egypt, do you think that is in fact an accurate articulation of this phenomenon where it does occur? Well, I assume he had a source. And I assume his source was in Scatus, and Scatus was a pretty important place, so I tend to put some confidence in it. I think that we can read backwards and see an authenticity to it simply by the whole rise of hesychasm and the Jesus prayer. Because, I mean, this is very much like that. Very much like that. This doesn't have all that light imagery and so on that the Hesychast tradition has.

[54:53]

But that stuff had to come from somewhere. Do you think it was imported, or do you think there's any possibility of it being imposed on this desert tradition of prayer from these people like Evagrius who came from you know, Constantinople and such. Do you think this articulation, in other words, is this a neoplatonic articulation which has been imported and superimposed on a tradition, you know, that it didn't necessarily rise from? I don't know. I'd have to chew that one over, overnight. and just figure out just what kind of categories I'd want to think of to answer that. I would be hesitant to say that, because it seems to relate so well to the tradition of recitation and rumination.

[55:57]

But I'd have to think about it a little bit. These are just some things I've wondered about, because this whole controversy and rage now for a decade. It didn't go probably longer than that, but I've been aware of it, you know. My understanding of it has been going on for quite a while. Which way is this? You know, what is this contemplation? Is it the prayer of fire? Is it the meeting of the holy presence? God? Well, I guess my own sense is that There are many ways, and I think for an intellectual, this thing that Cashin talks about, probably a pretty salutary way to pray. For someone whose mind is full of all kinds of stuff, this would probably be very helpful. Someone else might not find that as necessary. I don't know. Because the goal of each is the same.

[57:00]

It's the same, yeah. This beautiful description. The end is identical. Very exciting. Very original. It's good stuff. I've got to say. Beautiful approach here. I've never seen it before either. Very original. Well, like I say, I think Cassian is going to be all the rage in the next couple of years. Yeah, you're in on it early. I remember just after Ashton Poulsen's article occurred, that I wrote with Anne Eldred, and she wrote back and said that this was supposed to be done. Yeah, it fell through. The institutes have been done. Well, because Benedicta Ward told me they had.

[58:01]

She did them. And her text is done. And they're going to publish it. The problem with Cistercian publications is that they take forever to publish things. So it could be sitting somewhere in Kalamazoo. ready to go. As far as the conferences, they don't have someone to do all of the conferences, but Paulist is going to publish some of them. Now, I don't know who their translator is, and I don't know which ones they're doing, but that has been announced, so I imagine it will come out fairly soon. I'll be eager to see if they do these, and then how they translate it, because it better be somebody knowledgeable, or this vocabulary could get all screwed up. But I think something's on the way. Hope so. This thing's hard to read. Welcome.

[58:51]

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